While not actually canon, Grabowski indicated that the Primordial War was fought with E8-9 Solars:

"[...] an Essence 8-9 Solar and his Essence 8-9 Lunar mate, both in the best warstriders and wielding the best weapons Autocthon could make, both with hundreds of Charms and dozens of Combos, with a support force of 100 Essence 6-7 Dragon-Blooded in mid-grade (for Autocthon) warstriders, with 100 Charms and 20 Combos. All of them have crazy rule-breaking Essence batteries, time to charge up before the fight and the support of magical weapons of mass destruction to help them close with their foes by sweeping away hordes of lesser enemies. Plus the Sidereals are rigging destiny in their favor."
That's interesting.

I had always thought that Solar Exaltations were rigged to be useful in the Primordial War right from E2 at chargen, and that's why Perfect defenses were available at chargen without raising your Essence beyond the starting E2.

Being viable at E2 seems like a key aspect of winning a war of attrition, and attrition seems like a thing for which the Celestial Exalted were uniquely well designed.
 
While not actually canon, Grabowski indicated that the Primordial War was fought with E8-9 Solars:

"[...] an Essence 8-9 Solar and his Essence 8-9 Lunar mate, both in the best warstriders and wielding the best weapons Autocthon could make, both with hundreds of Charms and dozens of Combos, with a support force of 100 Essence 6-7 Dragon-Blooded in mid-grade (for Autocthon) warstriders, with 100 Charms and 20 Combos. All of them have crazy rule-breaking Essence batteries, time to charge up before the fight and the support of magical weapons of mass destruction to help them close with their foes by sweeping away hordes of lesser enemies. Plus the Sidereals are rigging destiny in their favor."
Essence 8 has a requirement of being 500 years old.
Essence 9 has a requirement of being 1000 years old.
Additionally, the casualties of the Primordial War were catastrophic, and seem to have only been viable because the 700 Celestial Exaltations basically respawned. So, reaching Essence 8 would require surviving 500 years in the middle of a world-shaking war.
I mean, unless you want to say the Incarnae spammed effects similar to their Avenge My Death charms.
 
Essence 8 has a requirement of being 500 years old.
Essence 9 has a requirement of being 1000 years old.
Additionally, the casualties of the Primordial War were catastrophic, and seem to have only been viable because the 700 Celestial Exaltations basically respawned. So, reaching Essence 8 would require surviving 500 years in the middle of a world-shaking war.
I mean, unless you want to say the Incarnae spammed effects similar to their Avenge My Death charms.

Or the issue might be with age limits of "you must be this old to play in the big kids' pool" than with E8-9 Solars fighting the Primordial War. Or the Primordial War was fought on a much, much longer timescale, where 1000 years was a relative blip in the timescale of the war. Or the current age limits are some sort of self-imposed limitation after the Primordial War to favor the established Exalts.

Plenty of explanations that don't require Grabowski to be wrong.

My personal opinion is that the Primordial War probably makes no sense and should be taken more allegorically than trying to figure out the mechanics, but that's just me.
 
Or they just go Devil-Tiger, but those charms aren't even remotely thematically balanced.

Yes. The secret about the Devil Tiger path is that it is for suckers.

Oh, it promises you the world. It promises you getting lots of shiny things uniquely shaped around your personality and style and blah blah blah.

Yeah, you know what? You are an Essence 6 Infernal. Unless you power-levelled Essence and bought no extra charms, you already have a style which you've made your own by mixing and remixing your personal blend of Yozi Charms. And if you RPed and bought Charms as appropriate for your own personality, then you have Charms based around your personality. Yozi Charms will have incentivised your actions and you will be somewhat twisted by them, but unless you've surrendered entirely to what your Charmset "wants" you to do you'll still be you. And if you did surrender to it... well, duh, no wonder you don't act like yourself any more. You gave into a demonic force which wanted you to do something in return for power, and didn't try to hold onto yourself. Of course you lose yourself.

And what do you get out of the Devil Tiger path? Oh, yay, you, an Essence 6 Infernal, get to start buying Charms again from E1. Yay. So you get to spend your XP on E1 and E2 Charms when your compatriots who didn't take the sucker's path are buying E6 Charms. Well-designed Devil Tiger Charms are still chaining you with precisely the same chains as Yozi Charms, and as you're an E6 Infernal you have long since internalised your own Yozi root charm chains. So you're buying into new limitations.

And what do you get out of that? Well, you're having to write a whole new Charmset, so that means that homebrew is in play. And - and this is the kicker - if homebrew is in play you could just have written new effects for the Yozis you actually use. Like a Malfeas Charm tree which actually respects that he's the devil tyrant and really should have had the Zenith Exaltations, not the Dawn ones.

...

Also, the thing I find hilarious is how if you just take a more sensible approach to design, not only do you not have the stupid-high Essence of Devil Tiger things with their poor designs, but you can get more balanced versions of Devil Tiger Charms at playable essence levels.

For example, a moment's thought should reveal that it's perfectly valid Charm tech for Infernals to be making First Circle demons at E3, if they have to do a dramatic action lasting four hours and can only do it once a day. Why? Because it's mechanically basically a reskinned Summon Elemental/Dot1C. Likewise, Infernals totally can spawn their own souls at E4, externalising them from their own mind on the night of the new moon, and these souls will be about as powerful as a Second Circle Demon and if they're hit by Sapphire Circle Banishment, they'll vanish back into the Infernal's mind. Why? Because the opportunity cost of using that effect is not using Dot2C. Now, of course, some might say it's unfair that the Infernal gets some friendly 2nd Circles around while the Solar has to bind them, but... well, you know, the Solar can get friendly 2nd Circles around too.

They just have to go make friends with them. You know, with their superlative social charms and effects which let them know people's heart's desires and the like. And then they, too, can have friendly 2nd Circles running around with them without having to bind them. The Solar doesn't have to bind the Second Circles, in fact, at all. They just usually do it because it's easier than treating the Second Circle like a person. Meanwhile, the Infernal has to negotiate with their own souls, and even though they'll usually be well-inclined to them by default, they're still demons based around one of their Principles. The demon who's a very cheerful wind who scourges people with hate or fear in their heart and who's an expression of the Infernal's "Be Free" isn't going to want to go and sit down and help run a city. Or to stop scourging people with hate and fear in their hearts.
 
Yes. The secret about the Devil Tiger path is that it is for suckers.
Keris's reaction in particular - while sitting in her Heretical soul-world playing with two of her Pantheon souls, creating a type of First Circle deva crafted to tend to and care for children and metastasising a normal-play-Essence tree of Heretical Charms out from her po soul's thematics as an lurking unseen predator that hoards wealth in the mist and fog - would be to laugh hysterically at anyone who took that route.

Sasi just wouldn't see the point, especially when such things are likely to get you the attention of the All-Makers and the courts of Cecelyne, which is not a terribly safe position to be in even if they decide not to punish you for stepping above your station.
The demon who's a very cheerful wind who scourges people with hate or fear in their heart and who's an expression of the Infernal's "Be Free" isn't going to want to go and sit down and help run a city. Or to stop scourging people with hate and fear in their hearts.
Or stop stealing things and pouncemurdering serfs and wrecking bits of scenery in her greater self's Devil Domain and goddammit Echo would it kill you to sit down and behave for five minutes?

¬_¬
 
Or the Primordial War was fought on a much, much longer timescale, where 1000 years was a relative blip in the timescale of the war. Or the current age limits are some sort of self-imposed limitation after the Primordial War to favor the established Exalts.
So, reaching Essence 8 would require surviving 500 years in the middle of a world-shaking war.
:|
That's a non-trivial feat.

My personal opinion is that the Primordial War probably makes no sense and should be taken more allegorically than trying to figure out the mechanics, but that's just me.
That's probably the safer route.
 
And what do you get out of the Devil Tiger path? Oh, yay, you, an Essence 6 Infernal, get to start buying Charms again from E1. Yay. So you get to spend your XP on E1 and E2 Charms when your compatriots who didn't take the sucker's path are buying E6 Charms. Well-designed Devil Tiger Charms are still chaining you with precisely the same chains as Yozi Charms, and as you're an E6 Infernal you have long since internalised your own Yozi root charm chains. So you're buying into new limitations.
It's been a while since I looked at the rules, but isn't there a charm switch clause in one of the DT charms? Like, you swap out one set of Yozi charms for the DT's charms? I mean, most of your criticisms still apply, and I agree with your overall point, but I don't think the XP one is entirely true.

:|
That's a non-trivial feat.
I think one of the implications is that the direct tutoring of a Primordial/Incarnae allows capbreaking.
 
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It's been a while since I looked at the rules, but isn't there a charm switch clause in one of the DT charms? Like, you swap out one set of Yozi charms for the DT's charms? I mean, most of your criticisms still apply, and I agree with your overall point, but I don't think the XP one is entirely true.

Only applies to Yozi General Charms. So that's Excellencies, sorcery, etc.

Witness to Darkness, for example, is not a Yozi General Charms. Neither are the Intolerable Burning Truths.
 
It's been a while since I looked at the rules, but isn't there a charm switch clause in one of the DT charms? Like, you swap out one set of Yozi charms for the DT's charms? I mean, most of your criticisms still apply, and I agree with your overall point, but I don't think the XP one is entirely true.

Only for General Charms, like Excellencies or Yozi Body Unity or whatever.

A quicky bandaid could be the ability to convert non-general Charms into XP to be spent on your Devil Tiger Charms when you're in the Chrysalis, but there's probably other problems with that that I've go no particular desire to hammer out.
 
Only for General Charms, like Excellencies or Yozi Body Unity or whatever.

A quicky bandaid could be the ability to convert non-general Charms into XP to be spent on your Devil Tiger Charms when you're in the Chrysalis, but there's probably other problems with that that I've go no particular desire to hammer out.
Or convert what charms you can into thematically appropriate analogues; the TED write-up in RotSE has Verdant Emptiness Endowment, among other charms, from other Yozi with occasional notes on how they're altered to fit his thematics, and this is explicitly called out as a thing Yozi (but not Infernals) can do in the second paragraph of the Charms chapter in MoEP: Infernals (first one under "Learning Infernal Charms": "In addition, the Yozi are very skilled at adapting the Charms of their siblings to their own themes or expressions of power.")
 
IIRC the Devs never confirmed one way or another at what E level the Exalted of the Primordial war fought on. So saying things like they were E4-5 is not true. We don't know much if anything about it other than a few things like that Solar queen choking a Primordial to death after her DB army died.

Nope- there are several dev comments that say the Exalted won the Primordial War with Charms no higher than Essence 5.
 
Personally I like the idea that Celestial Exalted were special because they could kick ass at E2, and that meant they were effective weapons in a war of attrition, and that was a new thing which the Primordials didn't see coming.

But it's not a big deal either way, since it's never going to affect what happens on-stage during one of my games.
 
Nope- there are several dev comments that say the Exalted won the Primordial War with Charms no higher than Essence 5.
This is the 2E interpretation. Grabrowski's word is my canon for 1E, but I'm leaning for the 2E dev comments in 2E, which is what I play/write.

Needless to say I prefer 1E fluff, usually (except for MALFEANS ugggh) but most people are familiar with 2E stuff online, and I always blur crap I learned in 1E with the more recent stuff.
 
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So, the Arcane Fate section in MoEP: Sidereals says it gives Sidereals a +3 dice bonus on rolls to masquerade as a fictional identity. Resplendent Destinies give +3 dice to rolls to convince others of the validity of the identity of that destiny.
If a Sidereal were to create a Resplendent Destiny of a fictional identity (we'll call this identity John Doe), would he get +6 dice to pretending to be John Doe? If John Doe interacted with the world to such a degree that there are tales told of him, would he still be considered a fictional identity for the purposes of Arcane Fate? Can you make a series of Resplendent Destinies that use the same identity, or do you need to make a new one each time?
 
If a Sidereal were to create a Resplendent Destiny of a fictional identity (we'll call this identity John Doe), would he get +6 dice to pretending to be John Doe?

By my understanding, yes.

Sidereals are very good at maintaining fake identities.

If John Doe interacted with the world to such a degree that there are tales told of him, would he still be considered a fictional identity for the purposes of Arcane Fate?

Yep. But this won't happen, for reasons I'll cover below.

Can you make a series of Resplendent Destinies that use the same identity, or do you need to make a new one each time?

You have to make a new one. In fact, the old identity disappears from memory once you've gotten rid of it. (MoEP: Sidereals pg 193)
 
By my understanding, yes.

Sidereals are very good at maintaining fake identities.
Nice.

Yep. But this won't happen, for reasons I'll cover below.
Excellent.

You have to make a new one. In fact, the old identity disappears from memory once you've gotten rid of it. (MoEP: Sidereals pg 193)
Fuuuu.
Guess I'm gonna be hand-waving that, too, for the sake of making this work. Not the worst thing, but I like it when my ideas line up with how things work pre-handwavium. Gives me a warm, fuzzy feeling.
 
To be clear, this gives a very clear theme to the Sidereals that's a very defining part of their story- even as a story or a background, I'd advise you think hard about changing this.

(I am curious what your idea is- maybe there's another way to make it work?)
 
To be clear, this gives a very clear theme to the Sidereals that's a very defining part of their story- even as a story or a background, I'd advise you think hard about changing this.

(I am curious what your idea is- maybe there's another way to make it work?)
Using a resplendent destiny to have a set identity as a superhero in a story I'm doing some brain-storming and prep-work on. It's not totally necessary, since powers that mess with memories are a thing in the setting I'm using, but it makes it easier to explain why people on the street can go "oh, yeah, Vizier, I remember him" if he can remake his identity (despite not being very good at making destinies) if necessary.
Or I could just have him take 10 points of Paradox and spend an early part of the story either without any Willpower or unable to channel Virtues, and use the rules from Shards to give it a duration of threshold successes months + 10 years...

Actually, given all the effort I put into giving him social tools, and his aversion to showing off his kung fu before he sets himself up, having no willpower for the first arc could be hilarious.
Fortunately, the one charm use that I have planned that needs willpower is in the second arc.
 
Honestly? Sidereals, in general, aren't that good at the 'Superhero' thing from my understanding.

They're more likely to be Doctor Strange than anything else.
 
Honestly? Sidereals, in general, aren't that good at the 'Superhero' thing from my understanding.

They're more likely to be Doctor Strange than anything else.
The protagonist has been tasked with ensuring Earth Bet (from Worm) does not end before its time.
Joining the cape scene is the most expedient way to give him the influence he needs to thoroughly derail the canon timeline.

Really, the focus is going to be on "you can, but should you?" with a protagonist who has terrible impulse control.
Yes, you can use the fact that you've been living on the streets and look like a hobo to walk into a secure facility using Underling Invisibility Technique to clean yourself up, and compose the Scripture of the Maiden Whose Booty is Bangin' on the wall in paint, but should you?
(The answer is no, so obviously that's exactly what will happen.)
(Can Kindly Sifu's Quill be used to draw dicks on people? Yes. Should you actually do that? Probably not.)
It's one of my favorite parts of Exalted: what happens when the question isn't "can you?" but "should you?"
 
The protagonist has been tasked with ensuring Earth Bet (from Worm) does not end before its time.
Joining the cape scene is the most expedient way to give him the influence he needs to thoroughly derail the canon timeline.

Really, the focus is going to be on "you can, but should you?" with a protagonist who has terrible impulse control.
Yes, you can use the fact that you've been living on the streets and look like a hobo to walk into a secure facility using Underling Invisibility Technique to clean yourself up, and compose the Scripture of the Maiden Whose Booty is Bangin' on the wall in paint, but should you?
(The answer is no, so obviously that's exactly what will happen.)
(Can Kindly Sifu's Quill be used to draw dicks on people? Yes. Should you actually do that? Probably not.)
It's one of my favorite parts of Exalted: what happens when the question isn't "can you?" but "should you?"
blech, Worm.
 
Joining the cape scene is the most expedient way to give him the influence he needs to thoroughly derail the canon timeline.

No it isn't, the proper sidereal action is to be part of the staff, so you should get a set of generic custodian or secretary destinies. Remember, small changes and supporting other people is the sidereal way. Not jumping out in front, since using your charms hurts the destinies you have. (I think it's even a house rule to allow Sidereals to use Sidereal charms without cost while pretending to be Sidereals.)
 
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