Both of whom can still be people that you are treating like dogs.

"Want to learn how to fetch the stick, girl?"

"I'm older than you are!"

Solar: "Look, I am trying to teach you to turn into a giant murderbeast capable of wrestling a tyrant lizard to the ground, so you could try being a little more cooperative?"

Demon: "But how does getting a stick help with that?"

Solar: "I'm the reborn divine god-king that once ruled over all Creation, I think I know what I'm doing here. Now fetch the fucking stick!"
 
Purely as a guess, I think it may have to do with the issues raised by the Celestial Bureaucracy. The whole thing with "you can summon and bind incredibly important people with influence in Heaven and across whole directions, except actually you can't because they just send flunkies instead," and other fun stuff like "summoning a Gemlord is a suicidal WMD," introduced complications that in my experience were more annoying to deal with than they brought benefits.

The main problems with Summon Elemental was that a: it wasn't broken into circles and b: it was presented as a fact of the nature of all elementals. Thus meaning summonign the Kukla was a valid summons (granted, one likely to get the entire Aerial Legion sicked on you before you finished the dozens of required stopgap summons first).

I always played Summon Elemental as de facto slavery of Elementals. Not all elementals could be summoned, only those that heaven had pressed into Indenture as a form of punishment; usually inflicted by censors and Sidereals on "rogue elementals" around Creation that were breaking The Mandate of Heaven. That is, they were supposed to be criminals abusing their powers and status to control mortals and extort worship and other bullshit but in practice this was often used as a way of bullying elementals into being Heaven's underclass and slaves-in-all-but-name. The fact most censors were Lesser Elemental Dragons was just icing on the cake, playing off the idea of people enslaving their cousins in order to enrich themselves (look up some of the stuff in how the Transatlantic Slave Trade worked; sobering stuff that).

Your status, or lack thereof, as summonable was maintained by The Bureau of Destiny which was also supposed to track abuses of the system. It also explains why the Dragonblooded are always summoning Elementals rather than demons, because the Bronze Faction gives them wider lattitude and uses stuff like their ability to change your file into the Summoning List as a way of forcing them to accept the Immaculate Order. It also tended to push Celestials into summoning demons since such activity was specifically not reviewed by Heaven.

I also had higher tier Summon Elemental spells, for those elementals who had transcended to Elemental Dragons at Celestial Level. Rumors persisted of Solars having access to Greater Elemental Dragons at the adamant circle, which everyone in Heaven denies but those records are sealed by Saturn and Jupiter so no one is quite sure of that. Summoning Elemental Dragons is less about slavery than it is about being attached to the Heavenly Bureaucracy, effectively Sidereals have the right to call a Censor in to review a case and cast judgement. They're not supposed to bind such Censors and force them to render judgement a certain way. Of course, no complaints from any Censors regarding maltreatment can be proven... or at least pinned on a specific Sidereal. Some censors and elemental dragons are unsummonable, as their missions are more permanent and valuable. Especially since it is rumored Lunars use this power to extract valuable intel about Heaven (and the Wyld Hunt) from some dragons they summon (any suggestion that such summoned censors are not being bound before being forced to disclose secrets is a base accusation that will result in an audit).

Of course, what most spirits don't think about is that if demons and elementals can be summoned and bound by sorcery... why not gods? Why not indeed? Cecelyne would know the truth of that. Go ask her.
 
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EDIT: I find it weird that Summon Elemental creates an Elemental rather than summoning an existing one. Is there a reason for that?

I suspect strongly it's because he was... inspired, shall we say, by a fix @Revlid put up for how to make elementals more distinctive from gods - and so part of how you summoned an Elemental was, as a necessary part of the casting ritual, you created a local elemental imbalance and so an elemental sprang up to fix what you did. It literally wasn't "summon elemental", it was "destablise Creation and create elemental".

Of course, Revlid's one was rather more detailed and significantly changed elementals.
 
Would there be any real point to Summon Bigger Elemental, based on the new elementals and the current spell?

It wouldn't carry the danger that summoning bigger demons does, unless a failed summoning allows the bigger elementals to go on a rampage before vanishing .
 
Would there be any real point to Summon Bigger Elemental, based on the new elementals and the current spell?

It wouldn't carry the danger that summoning bigger demons does, unless a failed summoning allows the bigger elementals to go on a rampage before vanishing .

I wouldn't mind being able to summon Garda birds, considering there are sorcery rituals that can draw energies from fire elementals... but no fire elementals in the corebook.
 
Revlid Setting Homebrew: Elementals
Hum, so, to address that, since I was mentioned...

In past editions, elementals didn't really have a well-defined place. Demons were more interesting as summoned tools, and had clearer design precepts which meant they received a disproportionate amount of homebrew - as a minion spell compared to Demon of the First Circle, Summon Elemental leaned entirely on the fact that hey hey hey maybe you can summon the Kukla lol. Ghosts weren't great, but they were still more interesting as reflections of humanity and a parallel civilization (in the Underworld). Even things like youkai and oni mainly had their concept-space janked by Raksha. Gods filled most of the other narrative slots for spirits, and to make matters worse their Terrestrial/Celestial split managed to be more interesting than the God/Elemental split. Elementals were effectively "spirits you can mostly summon that basically act like gods I guess". This was true even in-universe, where they aped the Bureaucracy of Gods without anyone - even the writers - really seeming to know or care why.

If anyone can tell me off the top of their head whether the Dogs Of Broken Earth were elementals or terrestrial gods, will call them a liar who had the relevant pdf open on their computer.

Even their history was garbled and unintuitive - there had been five Great Elementals, who weren't related to the five other giant elemental spirits, who'd been murdered by the Primordials. Their fragments turned into Elementals, who had nothing to do with any of the other Elemental-type characters, but gradually transformed into Elemental Dragons - who, again, had nothing to do with the, uh, Elemental Dragons. Then they bummed around and acted like sort of gods, but not really.

So Elementals were one of the things that definitely needed a change in 3e, even if they were less visible in their awfulness than some others.

-------

My take on their new direction was initially inspired by Autochthonian Elementals, which have a more distinct role within their own setting, but quickly became its own thing more aimed at the Firebird sequence in Fantasia, with a touch of Pokemon, Princess Mononoke, and Reus. The idea, essentially, was that Elementals have always existed, as natural instruments of Creation's elemental homeostasis.

They're the immune system of the dragonlines, spawning en-masse in the wake of major elemental shifts, or in lighter numbers with the turning of the seasons. Most elementals just dissolve when they're done, and those that stick around are basically animals. Of those, the majority end up as the guard dogs or pets of a Terrestrial God with a somewhat-related purview (illegal, of course, but overlooked). They're spiritual "wildlife", essentially, with little numinous power, rooted in the material - of the few that stick around, only a very few become enlightened enough to be genuinely intelligent.

Though those that do have a tendency to start gathering their less sapient fellows around them into gangs (or "Elemental Courts", if they've got pretensions) in places at the edge of divine attention, and start reshaping their local surroundings into its "natural" state, as they see it - i.e. lots of their element. These elementals can get to wield intimidating levels of power, especially since they tend to be overlooked by gods as mere beasts or "lesser" spirits - up until it becomes clear that they can hold their own, at least, at which point the talk of "our Elemental cousins" starts coming out.

This is the sort of thing that Sidereals tend to split their time between a) dealing with, because it fucks up their plans for the local area or gets them favours from local gods and b) quietly encouraging or ignoring, because it creates bulwarks against the Wyld, occupies uppity gods, gives them an avenue of spiritual influence in Creation which has no official path of remonstration against their meddling, and it's not actually their job to deal with it anyway. Legally speaking, elementals don't exist - they show up, balance the seasons, and vanish. That's the official line.

There are a very very few elementals who become strong enough for even Sidereals to start being leery of their chances in efficiently toppling them when necessary. These, Heaven tries to hire on as Directional Censors, effectively acting as the spiritual equivalent of privateers. They're the "Lesser Dragons" - taking on the role imposes the dragon-form. A Lesser Dragon is an elemental who was smart and powerful and active enough that the Celestial Bureaucracy actually offered them a purview to get them on-side. A job with all the downsides of Terrestrial and Celestial duties, and one that involves actual dangerous duties vis-a-vis rooting out Wyld hotspots in the region and keeping local elementals in line, but still. Scary. Think of Fakharu as one of the Shichibukai - an awesomely powerful pirate who signed on with the government, and so gets to freely act like a pirate in exchange for hunting other pirates.

Of course, if they refuse that offer they become targets for whatever retribution Heaven can spare, at which point they're best-advised to run for the Wyldmarches and live a less glamorous life on the edge of Creation, jockeying for dominance with raksha, Lunars and other oddities. It doesn't exactly help that the vital Essence of the Wyld is surefire way for an Elemental to bulk up... while also being a good way to get enslaved to a raksha noble as a pet, or go bonkers, or go from being a decent, honest fire elemental to being made from blue poisonous light.

Since "Elemental Dragon" isn't a natural part of this Elemental life-cycle, those that survive past this point develop into Reus-style giants as they reach higher Essence. Aside from basic Elemental themes, creatures who've advanced this far can't really be categorized into "species" in the manner of newborn elementals - they're entities like the subterranean Gemlord Collective of the South, or Hurricane Laloti, or Mother Bog. These are the sort of entities who look at the title "Directional Censor" and tell Nara-O:

"Censor? Foolish faceless god. Do you have any idea how much power I'd have to give up to become a Censor?"

It's the younger, hungrier ones in more precarious positions who tend to leap at the chance to become privateers. Which can lead to bitterness when it becomes apparent that they're now in a position to be resented by Terrestrials, condescended to by Celestials, and regarded as a traitor by their former fellows. Some of them shrug their shoulders and go "whatever", some of them throw themselves into their new duties to a degree that they earn a vicious reputation, some are so starry-eyed they don't even notice (this doesn't last long), some drown their irritation and regret in the pleasures of the Heavenly City.

This pressure is probably what drove Kukla to devour several thousand lesser Elementals through the course of his career as Censor, eventually developing into a beast so horrifying, so powerful, and so incurably mad that he was locked away (he's the only "Greater" Dragon, under this model - that's not a term, he's his own thing, just "The Kukla").

----------

Anyway, this gives elementals a clear role and process - they're freakish elemental wildlife, generally not (unlike gods, demons, ghosts) sapient, with their Charms worked into their "biology" to emphasize that. They're spawned to alter Creation as the seasons and dragonlines dictate. With a demon or god, you come up with a tool-nature or purview - with an elemental, you ask how they're intended to fix the world. This makes them easier to design - even if it means most will probably end up looking like Pokemon. A species of Wood Elemental might be birds with leaf-wings who vomit a fireproof sap onto trees, or big lizards who squirt seeds from their backs to replant a forest.

It also gives "standard" elementals some obvious narrative hooks distinct from renegade Terrestrial Gods - if you're building a manse, how are you dealing with elemental interference? If elementals are being spawned nearby, what's about to happen? If winter isn't coming, where are the flocks of Air elementals? They take the common narrative link between animals and disruptions of nature and make them extremely solid - while reversing the chain of cause-and-effect, in some cases.

So with all that in mind, Summon Elemental doesn't summon an Elemental, but creates a new one, by causing a calculated imbalance in the local Essence. This creates a spirit-familiar, an elemental beast who dissipates once you're done with it (usually). There's no particular problem with this - it's a mindless homeostasis-thing with no existing connections. Actually summoning an existing, specific Elemental is only possible in the same way you might be able to summon a god with a sorcerous contract.

If you still want to include the Great Elementals - though their only real worth is the part where the Gods bound them the same way they'd been bound, even as they grated against the injustice of their own yoke - then they were a control system devised by the gods and broken by the spiteful Primordials as war broke out, leaving Elementals to run rampant over Creation.

---------

That was the pitch I put forward, anyway. Posted it on the old forums a few times, talked about it with the devs on IRC. Obviously, I wouldn't have talked to them if I had a problem with my ideas being adopted - if indeed they were, rather than developed independently. In any case, 3e is handling elementals quite differently than I describe above - while it's got a fair bit of "spiritual wildlife" angle I focused on, it seems to aim more at the territory of youkai tribes, or the inhuman races in Zelda and some pulp explorer fiction. Exalted is largely bereft of other "races", so elementals is a good place to put things like tengu or gorons or cloud people.

...though that model doesn't seem to work quite as well with the new Summon Elemental. For those who haven't read it - it's exactly what I described above, which works fine with dragonline repair drones that sometimes go rampant, but doesn't seem to gel with races of people so humanized as to be treated more like weird foreigners than gods or demons.
 
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...though that model doesn't seem to work quite as well with the new Summon Elemental. For those who haven't read it - it's exactly what I described above, which works fine with dragonline repair drones that sometimes go rampant, but doesn't seem to gel with races of people so humanized as to be treated more like weird foreigners than gods or demons.

Maybe the idea is to not point out, but make it possible for people to realize, "Hey you! Yes you! You're actually enslaving people!" or something of that fashion?
 
Maybe the idea is to not point out, but make it possible for people to realize, "Hey you! Yes you! You're actually enslaving people!" or something of that fashion?
... yeah, but that's basically what Demon of the First Circle is for. Only more so because they're living in a prison society that your predecessors imposed on them which actually kind of sucks for them, even if they didn't do anything themselves.
 
... yeah, but that's basically what Demon of the First Circle is for. Only more so because they're living in a prison society that your predecessors imposed on them which actually kind of sucks for them, even if they didn't do anything themselves.

I imagine there's a fair few demons who are perfectly happy to be summoned just to get out of said prison society.
 
I'm just sad that summoning large groups of elementals or demons at once is slower until we get a manse system once again. How am I meant to be feared when it takes a month to get a good sized gang!

I imagine there's a fair few demons who are perfectly happy to be summoned just to get out of said prison society.

Considering the brainwashing involved, even the second circles are happy to be summoned... during their term of service anyway!
 
I imagine there's a fair few demons who are perfectly happy to be summoned just to get out of said prison society.
Remind me to tell you about my first experience with Demon of the First Circle and its effect on summoned demons' behaviour in play.

It managed to actually make Keris feel guilty, which is no small feat.
 
Tell us big sister Aleph! Tell us!
Okay, so this was a little before Keris murdered Gen and planted his desecrated body over the entrance to Firewander district, but after Sasi had ordered her to do so. She knew that he habitually kept a bunch of spirits around him, so she had to learn how to hit them (she could hear them and permakill them by then, just not hit them while they were dematerialised).

So she got Sasi to summon something that she could practice on - something she could hear all the time, since her spirit-sensing Charm works on hearing, not vision (sigh, dammit Keris). That was very impressive - ES does awesome descriptions of Sorcery. Keris kind of expected all harpists to be tough-as-nails maternal figures like Dulmea, and was thus rather surprised to get this shy little angyalka that didn't even try to resist the binding, or even have a name. But the little harpist sat dematerialsed in Sasi's basement like Keris ordered her to, and Keris spent something like two days trying to punch her and going clean through her instead. After the first hour or so, she stopped bothering to pull the punches, since none of them were connecting anyway and it was more effort.

This had the rather embarrassing side-effect that when she did connect, having achieved the right mental state to touch the untouchable (break the unbreakable, row row- wait, no, sorry), ES treated it as a serious attack, and Keris... uh... sort of dislocated her jaw. And, well... maybe I should just quote the next bit.
The angyalka grows past squeaking in fear with every blow, though it takes her most of the first day, and does her best to try and dodge the attacks as they come, forcing Keris to alter her aim to strike something she can't see. By the end of the second day, it's... still far from casual, but the angyalka seems to be growing comfortable in Keris's inability to hit her.

As such, it's probably something of a surprise when Keris's fist passes through her abdomen without resistance, and then a coiled lock of hair snaps up and catches her full across the jaw.

Keris straightens, almost as surprised as her opponent, who from the sound of it got thrown to the floor by the blow. She hadn't really pulled it much - in fact, she hadn't been carefully pulling her blows for a while, since there was no real point in expending the extra effort. It hadn't been as hard as it could have been, but still... whoops.

"Uh, sorry," she offers, slightly sheepishly. "You able to make sure I can repeat that? I'll pull this one."

The angyalka is doubled over in pain, crying silently. Nevertheless, it straightens up. "As you wish, mistress. I want to help you however possible," she says, flinching slightly.

Feeling vaguely guilty, Keris whips her hair forward again, carefully holding back on the force she's using this time. She aims for the angyalka's hair, when she won't do any more damage, and feels the satisfying contact of hair-on-hair as she knocks one of her tendrils back. She also hears the reflexive flinch and whimper, which does not help the guilty feeling. It's like attacking a baby version of Dulmea who isn't half as composed.
... so yeah. She had a badly-bruised/possibly-dislocated jaw, was crying in pain, was flinching at every movement and barely able to stand... and the summoning had fucked with her head enough that she was still perfectly willing to stand there as Keris tried to hit her again. She was, incidentally, less than a year old, and had spent most of that time standing in a sheltered alcove on some Second Circle's roof, playing music to keep the Silent Wind away.

The ending is slightly happier - Keris gave her a name (Curaji; Old Realm for courage, because she was brave), and offered to employ her in Keris's swanky Malfean townhouse, which the newly named Curaji accepted because she took it as an order due to not really having the mental flexibility or context to understand that she was being given a choice that she could say "no" to. So now she has nicer clothes and a better place to live and is probably being pestered and looked up to by the trio of street rats that Keris semi-adopted and took back with her, who Keris told her to watch over while they were still in the city.
 
Keris took a bunch of mortal children to hell? Goddamn it stop confirming stories immaculate followers tell their children to make them be good.
In fairness, she totally saved Piu from dying of pneumonia. Or as Keris calls it, "the new moaning thingie where she has liquid in her lungs and stuff."
 
...though that model doesn't seem to work quite as well with the new Summon Elemental. For those who haven't read it - it's exactly what I described above, which works fine with dragonline repair drones that sometimes go rampant, but doesn't seem to gel with races of people so humanized as to be treated more like weird foreigners than gods or demons.

I'm reminded vaguely of a sci-fi short story I once read. Can't remember the name of it for the life of me, but in it there was an alien species that didn't consider their young to be people because until they got past their species's equivalent to puberty they were essentially animals. After they reached the point of maturity and started thinking about more than eating, fucking, and sleeping, they were welcomed into the alien's society and educated.

3e Elementals could be somewhat similiar. Young Elementals are barely more than intelligent animals when they first form. Over time depending on their experiences, magics used on and around them, etc, they develop their own personalities and develop into thinking beings.

These older Elementals over time gravitate towards each other, for companionship, for protection, or whatever other reasons they could have. Their shared experiences with each other along with their natural tendency to change form as they grow leads them to assuming similiar forms. They become new "species" or races of Elementals, and as later Elementals join them, they too become members of this new race.

The races of Elementals could, over time, discover various methods of either creating more Elementals like themselves, for example Ifrits learning how to create new Ifrits, that don't go through that first phase of being basically mindless or else learning how to turn such mindless Elementals into members of their own race.

It even sorta fits with 3e's Summon Elemental spell, which notes that Elementals that develop their own personalities and identities can survive after their binding expires.
 
I'm reminded vaguely of a sci-fi short story I once read. Can't remember the name of it for the life of me, but in it there was an alien species that didn't consider their young to be people because until they got past their species's equivalent to puberty they were essentially animals. After they reached the point of maturity and started thinking about more than eating, fucking, and sleeping, they were welcomed into the alien's society and educated.

Don't know about short stories, but that sounds like the Martians from Stranger in a Strange Land
 
I'm reminded vaguely of a sci-fi short story I once read. Can't remember the name of it for the life of me, but in it there was an alien species that didn't consider their young to be people because until they got past their species's equivalent to puberty they were essentially animals. After they reached the point of maturity and started thinking about more than eating, fucking, and sleeping, they were welcomed into the alien's society and educated.


I am personally reminded of the aliens in the novel "Mother of Demons" by Eric Flint. It was made available free online as part of the Baen Free Library. Here is a link http://baencd.freedoors.org/Books/Mother of Demons/index.htm
 
It's the Baby-eating aliens from that dumb story by Yudkowsky.

Facts in evidence, let's move on.

I've been reading the leak (and sweet crap what a project that is, even with all the charms I've glazed over) and I took a look at Steel Devil Style.

Now, I know I'm not the most mechanically apt member of the boards, and 3E is certainly going out of its way to be difficult to understand, but it seems like a style focused around the chaining of charms, most notably Double Attack Technique and Steel Devil Strike, to wear away at an opponent's health track.

Kind of the opposite of the way the rest of combat functions where you're building Initiative to launch one gigantic killshot or protect yourself from Initiative crash, and for all that it seems much more vulnerable to just being blown to shreds immediately, especially with the lack of defensive Charms up until *checks* eugh, Essence 3. Definitely not a style I'd take on any character but a Dawn with Supernal Martial Arts.

P.S. Sonic Slash seems incredibly meh. Whee, you get to pay a willpower to fail utterly against Hardness! Also, the style just kind of seems to founder against Bulwark Stance and every other sort of onslaught breaker.
 
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