notthepenguins
Neither Spherical Nor Frictionless
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
I don't think "extreme long range" refers to the "extreme range" range band.
General Exalted Thread
Salty
Shadow Cabal Assumptor Supreme
- Location
- Sun, Moon, Talia
- Pronouns
- I/Me
it pretty explicitly does
- Location
- The end of all things
No, you absolutely can. It's just that it is fairly risky if they aren't the only thing around or you don't actually manage to kill them in a single attack. Fighting a general and his army is much more dangerous than fighting the army alone.
This seems reasonable, though I didn't actually work it through. Combat heavy Exalts can absolutely slaughter lone battle groups by spending a bunch of motes, WP, and initiative.
Now try this again, assuming there is an enemy general who mastered Crane Style. It'll be hilarious.
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I don't think Bloodapes can be familiars. They're not animals, they are demons with the full intelligence of human beings. They are sapient.
Even if you COULD make a bloodape into a kind of familiar, you really should be training them with War.
Sucal
The Devil’s Cut
- Location
- Bottom of the barrel
...
Twilight Anima allows you to train Spirits with Familiar charms. Twilights don't have Supernal Survival so they can't start with familar charms at high essence. Therefore Super Blood Ape Army harder!
...Well, that's demeaning.
FaeGlade Plural
Semper Legens
- Location
- Land of Bureaucracy
- Pronouns
- Plural/They
Demons (and other spirits) can be familiars with the right charms/traits. Twilights get an anima-effect that allows that right out of character creation.
You just can't get them via the Familiar merit.
Oh, and re:Craft: *sigh*
That's what happens when you try to be overly pedantic and power-game - GMs tend to do it right back and nobody wins.
Because i'm not opposed to doing Basic Projects for material gain, but the original description was just boring, pedantic and "haha i found a loophole".
Let's look at an actual project:
Let's build a house. Which should fall under "Major projects", so what the heck lets make it a mansion.
We need someone with Craft (Architect), a bunch of people with Craft (Masonry) and probably Craft (Woodworking) and maybe a few others.
We hire one specialist/overseer for each category and let the others assist that person.
The masons do Basic Projects by shaping the stones. The woodworkers do the same by turning timber into planks etc.
The Architect does it by surveying the land, overseeing the other workers and designing individual features on the blueprint.
All that easily counts as Basic Projects, and since it is working towards a greater goal (=material gain) it gives silver XP.
They also all begin a major project at the moment they are starting to work on the mansion.
For the masons, this might be "build the exterior walls", "build the interior walls" and "decorate the walls".
For the woodworkers, this might be "build the roof", "build the floors" and "decorate the interior".
For the architect, its "finish the blueprint", as well as "oversee the masons" and "oversee the woodworkers"
All are reasonable Major Projects and again work towards a goal (=material gain), so they given gold XP.
The architect alone also starts a Superior Project once he has two gold points - which he actually gets from finishing the blueprint!
This is obviously "build the mansion". Which requires a Craft (Architecture) roll and is all about coordinating the overall project, inspecting progress, accounting for available materials and land etc.
He has all the necessary materials because they were provided by the other workers.
When he can start working towards the goal depends on the GM, depending on what is being built.
Let's assume the Architect is a pretty clever mortal with Intelligence 4, Craft (Architecture) 3 and a speciality in Mansions.
He rolls 8 dice at the cost of 10 gold points, so he gets ~ 4 successes/10 gXP.
He gains those gXP at a rate of 10 sXP=3 gXP. Let's say he can do that once per work week, three times as long as he hasn't started the actual construction and we are still in the preparation phase.
Finishing the Mansion takes 30 accumulated successes, so that's 75 gXP, which would take us 75 weeks - less actually, if he starts overseeing the project right from the start.
That's a build time of slightly less than 1.5 years, pretty reasonable for a Mansion.
Heck, if the Architect is considerate enough to build Intimacies towards workers or has personal ambition in the project, the whole thing could be completed faster - with a minimum of however the GM decides it takes to start rolling on the project.
You just can't get them via the Familiar merit.
Oh, and re:Craft: *sigh*
That's what happens when you try to be overly pedantic and power-game - GMs tend to do it right back and nobody wins.
Because i'm not opposed to doing Basic Projects for material gain, but the original description was just boring, pedantic and "haha i found a loophole".
Let's look at an actual project:
Let's build a house. Which should fall under "Major projects", so what the heck lets make it a mansion.
We need someone with Craft (Architect), a bunch of people with Craft (Masonry) and probably Craft (Woodworking) and maybe a few others.
We hire one specialist/overseer for each category and let the others assist that person.
The masons do Basic Projects by shaping the stones. The woodworkers do the same by turning timber into planks etc.
The Architect does it by surveying the land, overseeing the other workers and designing individual features on the blueprint.
All that easily counts as Basic Projects, and since it is working towards a greater goal (=material gain) it gives silver XP.
They also all begin a major project at the moment they are starting to work on the mansion.
For the masons, this might be "build the exterior walls", "build the interior walls" and "decorate the walls".
For the woodworkers, this might be "build the roof", "build the floors" and "decorate the interior".
For the architect, its "finish the blueprint", as well as "oversee the masons" and "oversee the woodworkers"
All are reasonable Major Projects and again work towards a goal (=material gain), so they given gold XP.
The architect alone also starts a Superior Project once he has two gold points - which he actually gets from finishing the blueprint!
This is obviously "build the mansion". Which requires a Craft (Architecture) roll and is all about coordinating the overall project, inspecting progress, accounting for available materials and land etc.
He has all the necessary materials because they were provided by the other workers.
When he can start working towards the goal depends on the GM, depending on what is being built.
Let's assume the Architect is a pretty clever mortal with Intelligence 4, Craft (Architecture) 3 and a speciality in Mansions.
He rolls 8 dice at the cost of 10 gold points, so he gets ~ 4 successes/10 gXP.
He gains those gXP at a rate of 10 sXP=3 gXP. Let's say he can do that once per work week, three times as long as he hasn't started the actual construction and we are still in the preparation phase.
Finishing the Mansion takes 30 accumulated successes, so that's 75 gXP, which would take us 75 weeks - less actually, if he starts overseeing the project right from the start.
That's a build time of slightly less than 1.5 years, pretty reasonable for a Mansion.
Heck, if the Architect is considerate enough to build Intimacies towards workers or has personal ambition in the project, the whole thing could be completed faster - with a minimum of however the GM decides it takes to start rolling on the project.
FaeGlade Plural
Semper Legens
- Location
- Land of Bureaucracy
- Pronouns
- Plural/They
It only applies to First Circle Demons or lower-powered Elementals (Essence 1-3).
Then there is an Essence 5 Occult Charm (Ephemeral Induction Technique) where you can outright create a Spirit and have it as your familiar, though you can also release it later.
Kylar
In Training Forever
- Location
- Canada
Short version is yes, but its not the 'I win' button it was in 2e. For one thing you are probably doing a lot of aiming actions, so that's going to slow your rate of fire. Second thing is there are now options to get in range of your opponent. Pulling Solar Railgun on a Brawler with Ascendant Battle Visage up is a good way to get your face smashed in. Godspeed Steps can take you out to Extreme range, and its E3. Thrown users can use Triple Distance Attack Technique to counter fire.
On the army burning example, I think you'd need to pay for Fiery Arrow Attack and Dazzling Flare Attack per damage roll (ei, nine times), decisive damage adds 1 damage per 4 levels done, a large chunk of that damage is represented by people running the fuck away from the storm of flaming arrows from nowhere, you need awareness charms to fire that far, and you need at least one aim action to fire the second volley. That said, this does look like a decent army killer. Just don't be shocked if DBs pull out something like War Lion Stance and start parrying your arrows out of the air, and then sets the mountain you are fighting from on fire by glaring at you really hard.
I would, given that charm that lets you burn Craft XP for Craft dots.
Sucal
The Devil’s Cut
- Location
- Bottom of the barrel
And just remember, you can use those charms through public speaking with the right combo!
You have discovered Insatiable James Bond Prana?
Demonic Familiar was also a thing in 2E Infernals.
Also there are Charms that interact with bound spirits in Occult, letting you do things like drain notes from them and the like!
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- Location
- Michigan
Hey, I'm the old roommate Irked mentioned.
Take a look at the original post again.
Spirit-Stoking Elevation not only says you can use wxp as xp for Lore, Medicine, and Occult charms at a 1:1 exchange rate, it explicitly mentions Wyld-Shaping Technique as an example of one that works. It also explicitly mentions Flowing Mind Prana, the one that lets you spend your XP to buy dots for other people (and later, groups of people, charms, and spells with the upgrades). It also, as written, gives you real xp back.
I am by no means claiming that storytellers shouldn't call shenanigans on this. To my eyes, it is obviously not working as intended. But by my reading of the RAW, this is how it works, and expecting storytellers to adjudicate things like this, especially newer ones who might think "Oh, Solars are supposed to be able to do crazy things, so I guess this is okay?" is just bad design.
As for the money thing, lets take a look at the exact wording.
Monetary payment. Not "increases your Resource rating". Just "monetary payment." And remember, you are consistently making items of the highest quality, churning them out at the absolute pinnacle of mortal skill, possibly beyond if you throw some excellency use at it. These aren't piddly resources 1 items. You are (or at least, can be) making silk clothing fit for an emperor, dining room furniture that would make any noble jealous, silverware and flatware that belongs at the finest of state dinners, etc. Team up with an Eclipse and you can easily have a constant stream of orders from nobles and city governments (plugging the hole someone mentioned about getting the reward upon completing the project, rather than later when you sell it, which is an odd bit of phrasing, and hard to tell if intended). On the way to Essence 3, use Flowing Mind Prana with Legendary Scholar's Curriculum and your wxp to train up a small army of the finest of merchants (all with a Defining intimacy toward you and/or your business) and sell your wares across the whole of Creation. Need to diversify? Supreme Celestial Focus with Sublime Transference lets you take the sxp you get from selling furniture and spend it on Craft (Cutlery) and Craft (Tailoring). That and you already have Arete-Shifting Prana, which will let you temporarily use Craft (Weaponsmithing) as Craft (Cutlery) or Craft (Architecture) as Craft (Carpentry) or whatever.
As far as I can tell, there are easy ways around all the objections, except the "Storyteller should call shenanigans" one, which is one I agree with, but also think shouldn't be necessary.
Take a look at the original post again.
Spirit-Stoking Elevation not only says you can use wxp as xp for Lore, Medicine, and Occult charms at a 1:1 exchange rate, it explicitly mentions Wyld-Shaping Technique as an example of one that works. It also explicitly mentions Flowing Mind Prana, the one that lets you spend your XP to buy dots for other people (and later, groups of people, charms, and spells with the upgrades). It also, as written, gives you real xp back.
I am by no means claiming that storytellers shouldn't call shenanigans on this. To my eyes, it is obviously not working as intended. But by my reading of the RAW, this is how it works, and expecting storytellers to adjudicate things like this, especially newer ones who might think "Oh, Solars are supposed to be able to do crazy things, so I guess this is okay?" is just bad design.
As for the money thing, lets take a look at the exact wording.
Monetary payment. Not "increases your Resource rating". Just "monetary payment." And remember, you are consistently making items of the highest quality, churning them out at the absolute pinnacle of mortal skill, possibly beyond if you throw some excellency use at it. These aren't piddly resources 1 items. You are (or at least, can be) making silk clothing fit for an emperor, dining room furniture that would make any noble jealous, silverware and flatware that belongs at the finest of state dinners, etc. Team up with an Eclipse and you can easily have a constant stream of orders from nobles and city governments (plugging the hole someone mentioned about getting the reward upon completing the project, rather than later when you sell it, which is an odd bit of phrasing, and hard to tell if intended). On the way to Essence 3, use Flowing Mind Prana with Legendary Scholar's Curriculum and your wxp to train up a small army of the finest of merchants (all with a Defining intimacy toward you and/or your business) and sell your wares across the whole of Creation. Need to diversify? Supreme Celestial Focus with Sublime Transference lets you take the sxp you get from selling furniture and spend it on Craft (Cutlery) and Craft (Tailoring). That and you already have Arete-Shifting Prana, which will let you temporarily use Craft (Weaponsmithing) as Craft (Cutlery) or Craft (Architecture) as Craft (Carpentry) or whatever.
As far as I can tell, there are easy ways around all the objections, except the "Storyteller should call shenanigans" one, which is one I agree with, but also think shouldn't be necessary.
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I've noticed that a great deal of Exalted 3E is left open to ST arbitration. They don't leave you completely adrift (i.e. there are examples of what could happen when someone breaks an Eclipse Oath) but you won't see anything codified like "This person will botch this many times for breaking the Oath." Similarly, Charms reset by stunting like Seal of Infinite Wisdom also leave it up to the ST to decide what Stunt is appropriate.
Similarly, what constitutes a "clear in-game gain" for craft-xp is also really left up to the ST, but it can result in a lot of conflicts between a player's expectations versus a Storyteller's expectations.
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Without repeating everything @WhirlwindMonk said: yeah, that's basically the heart of it. @Serafina, if it wasn't for Spirit-Stoking Elevation, I'd agree with you: the XP costs make WSTing your weapons prohibitive.
But that balance point - and indeed, the Craft system in general - seems to be built around the assumption that wxp are rare: rare enough that it hurts to use them as XP, or to fuel your doombot, or build your artifacts, or etc. And the problem seems to be that, thanks to Sublime Transference, they aren't rare. They're as common as... well, as common as your GM letting you get any benefit at all out of making basic projects. And Sublime Transference is two Charms in: two Charms, to bring wxp gain to 1/4 the rate you can churn out sxp.
Now, a GM can rule that basic projects only very uncommonly actually count for sxp, certainly. You can invoke Golden Rule or Orichalcum Rule or whatever, but as Deations says, that's kind of a vague point, and it's the kind of thing that causes expectation conflicts. Should I, a crafter, be able to whip up a random basic project and sell it for sxp? It sure seems like yes. Should I be able to whip up ten different basic projects for 30 sxp? Does that seem bad on its own merits, or just because I can turn around and change that into a Volcano Cutter?
But that balance point - and indeed, the Craft system in general - seems to be built around the assumption that wxp are rare: rare enough that it hurts to use them as XP, or to fuel your doombot, or build your artifacts, or etc. And the problem seems to be that, thanks to Sublime Transference, they aren't rare. They're as common as... well, as common as your GM letting you get any benefit at all out of making basic projects. And Sublime Transference is two Charms in: two Charms, to bring wxp gain to 1/4 the rate you can churn out sxp.
Now, a GM can rule that basic projects only very uncommonly actually count for sxp, certainly. You can invoke Golden Rule or Orichalcum Rule or whatever, but as Deations says, that's kind of a vague point, and it's the kind of thing that causes expectation conflicts. Should I, a crafter, be able to whip up a random basic project and sell it for sxp? It sure seems like yes. Should I be able to whip up ten different basic projects for 30 sxp? Does that seem bad on its own merits, or just because I can turn around and change that into a Volcano Cutter?
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- Location
- Michigan
To follow up on @Irked, personally, I think there's room in the setting and in the system for Sublime Transference. I think it very much fits for a Twilight to finish up his 200th table, look at it, and say "Holy crap, that design I just carved on that leg is exactly the pattern I needed to make the essence channels on that artifact design work!" and convert their sxp to gxp or wxp. The problem is, it's too dang cheap. 2:1 for silver:gold might be fine, but the gold:white needs to preserve the rarity of wxp that the Craft charms seem to anticipate, and 2:1 seems pretty obviously not right.
@Deations, I've noticed the same thing. in some areas I like it, but in the Craft system, it really does seem like it needs something more concrete to help align player and storyteller expectations.
@Deations, I've noticed the same thing. in some areas I like it, but in the Craft system, it really does seem like it needs something more concrete to help align player and storyteller expectations.
azoicennead
Overly-Affectionate Zombie Squad
- Pronouns
- He/They
"Decisive attacks directed against a battle group also resolve normally, save that they, too, are applied to its Magnitude, and inflict one additional level of automatic damage per four dice of damage rolled (round up)."
Wait... Woops. That adds... 18 levels of damage.
"All range bands beyond long range are considered extreme range, and a character might potentially be several extreme range bands away from another character in a scene ranging across a very large area."
Both of whom can still be people that you are treating like dogs.
"Want to learn how to fetch the stick, girl?"
"I'm older than you are!"
There's an Essence 1 Spell where you can outright create an Elemental, year-binding or task-binding it, and it can avoid vanishing if you help it develop a personality.
I'm not saying one is superior to the other, but it IS an option.
Walker of the Yellow Path
Ho There!
- Location
- The Land of Memes
Ephemeral Induction does allow you a little more ability to define what exactly the spirit you're creating is.
Plus it and its prerequisites lets you kill spirits and make a familiar from their corpse.
EDIT: I find it weird that Summon Elemental creates an Elemental rather than summoning an existing one. Is there a reason for that?
Elementals are not Demons and demon summoning is a thing and therefore you do not summon Elementals, instead you create them? I am drawing blank otherwise.
Imrix
Periodically Malevolent QM
Off the top of my head? It might be to reflect that Elementals are an unintended part of Creation's cosmology, and not strictly subject to the laws that Summoning invokes.
It might also be a balance consideration; Summoned Demons are seperated by power according to their Circle, but Summon Elemental is a one-size-fits-all spell; if it called existing Elementals it could theoretically be used to whistle up anything from a Wood Spider to Fakharu, Lesser Elemental Dragon of Water.
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azoicennead
Overly-Affectionate Zombie Squad
- Pronouns
- He/They
Yeah, I'm not afraid to go into mass combat in 3e, because I'd just have to figure out what the stats for the average combatant in the battle groups are. Otherwise, it's basically just regular combat with a bunch of dudes. There's also some stuff for strategic warfare, which is nice.
No idea about social combats, though; I haven't examined those rules yet.
- Location
- Brittany, France
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Purely as a guess, I think it may have to do with the issues raised by the Celestial Bureaucracy. The whole thing with "you can summon and bind incredibly important people with influence in Heaven and across whole directions, except actually you can't because they just send flunkies instead," and other fun stuff like "summoning a Gemlord is a suicidal WMD," introduced complications that in my experience were more annoying to deal with than they brought benefits.