I think you responded to a post in which I laid out the general Exalt traits that Hearteaters possess with "well, you need to define what an Exalt is to say that someone else's argument is bad, actually". I hope that clears up your misunderstanding.
Argument I was responding to was specifically the bit where "no argument that an Exalt doesn't fit the definition has ever worked". Which itself doesn't work if you have no definition of your own to say they do fit with.

But I can see this will go nowhere.
 
Maybe I'm misunderstanding here.

You think that all that is required for something to fit in the setting is that the books tell you the thing exists? There is no thematic throughline, there is no set of rules as to what works and what doesn't, if the book says so, then it is, all else be damned? There is no circumstance where "I think this doesn't work" is a correct or even coherent point to make?

What's the throughline that they're missing? They're mortals elevated beyond their station through the actions of others who can be heroes or monsters. You've got some variation on that, but it's still at the heart of matters.
 
Argument I was responding to was specifically the bit where "no argument that an Exalt doesn't fit the definition has ever worked". Which itself doesn't work if you have no definition of your own to say they do fit with.

But I can see this will go nowhere.

I said:
I genuinely don't think I've ever heard a "this new kind of Exalt 3e added just doesn't feel like an Exalt to me" argument that felt even slightly persuasive

Again, I hope this helps you.
 
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Eh, the only time I've ever had thoughts adjacent to this is with Liminals, who give off the impression of being freshly created souls rather than something akin to the Alchemical Exalted who use a preexisting heroic soul, but then again, Sidereals get chosen the second they're born and grow into being heroes, so fuck it. I also don't consider Exaltation to be a brand or whatever that's diminished by more Exalt types, and I figure that brand has already been completely monopolized in-setting with the Dragon-blooded outnumbering the other Exalted by something like 30 Dragon-blooded for every single other Exalt.
 
Personally it feels like a problem with looking at Creation as a whole rather than looking at the individual stories and the potential relationships between the different Exalt types.
 
Eh, the only time I've ever had thoughts adjacent to this is with Liminals, who give off the impression of being freshly created souls rather than something akin to the Alchemical Exalted who use a preexisting heroic soul
The way I like to think of it is actually like... Alchemicals are created using a human soul, Liminals are created using a human body, and Getimians are created using a human destiny. With all three of the Exalts who are new people created by their moment of Exaltation, there's still something essentially human going into it that like... influences their feelings and memories and how they relate to the world.
 
Not all humans in Creation need necessarily be descended from other humans by means of of sexual reproduction after all. There's plenty examples of the Scarlet Dynasty turning to various magical means in order for couples who are otherwise incapable of conceiving to have children. The end product of such efforts are as human as any other dynastic child, whether a Neomah stitched them together or they grew out of a sorcerous cabbage patch.
 
The Big Dumb Deep Dive into Fate is All Things

This is another one of those.

Today, I'd like to look at another Sidereal Charm: Fate is All Things. This is a fairly late-game Charm, being a Permanent Sidereal Occult 5, Essence 3 Charm. Its effect is simple:

"The Sidereal treats un-Exalted enemies of fate as spirits for purposes of Sidereal Charms. This doesn't apply for Charms that affect specific types of spirit, like gods, only those applicable to all spirits."

…but is it simple?

This is one of those Charms that is hard to accurately gauge before you've been playing for a while, I think, because you need to know what it will actually apply to. So I'm going to simply go through every Sidereal Charm in order, and list all those that are affected and how. Hopefully by the end of it we'll know if this Charm is worth its xp!

Also, this Charm applies to 'un-Exalted enemies' and treats them 'as spirits'; but, for instance, a demon is an enemy of fate… but is also already a spirit, meaning it is already covered by Charms which affect those. So is a ghost. Therefore, the only characters actually affected are 'un-Exalted enemies of fate which are not spirits', and that's… the fae, corporeal undead such as zombies, .and unique characters your ST designs that they deem to be so.

For ease of convenience, I am going to refer to such applicable characters - "un-Exalted enemies of fate that are not spirits" as Wretches, because it's fun. It would be a very bad term to use in the actual line but this is just my own post.

That's slim. Right now I'm in a raksha-centric game, so I'd still want it, but it's not a lot.

Without further ado, let's do the rundown.

House of Journeys

Resistance contains no applicable Charms.

Ride

Invisible Spirit Rider:
If you're riding a Wretched mount, it gains the ability to dematerialize and to bring you with it into the immaterial. This is an extremely niche benefit unless you have a very specific character concept, but if, for instance, you have a unicorn familiar (fae) or are one of those Plutonian Shores types with an undead horse, then you probably want that.

Sail

Salt-into-Ash Sleight:
You can use social influence to remind a Wretch that they have urgent business elsewhere that they must attend to. This straightforwardly expends the range of the Charm and would be useful in any game dealing with fae and sentient, corporeal undead.

Survival

Creation's Subtle Whisper:
As a minor benefit, the question "What is the overall mood of the nearby region's spirits?" will also cover Wretches. Great in the Dreaming Sea.

Sky Spirit Demand: This Charm is a 'mutual influence' deal that causes you to inflict an automatically successful intimacy on a spirit in exchange for receiving one of your own, and FiAT expands it to Wretches. Can zombies feel love?

Tomb-Parole Sanction: Astral projection and partial possession (you gain influence on your host, not outright physical control), now expanded to Wretches. Enjoy body-riding that fae Cataphract.

Dreaming the Wild Lands: The ability to communicate with animals and spirits without a shared language at a vast range and to convince them to attack people expands to Wretches.

House of Serenity

Craft

Elemental Vision:
To address this immediately; Elemental Vision's various subclauses affect spirits 'associated with the element of your Maiden,' which means they are specific spirits, which means FiAT doesn't apply. Sorry.

Linguistics

Ice-and-Fire Binding:
The first clause, which summons a spirit to bind them, specificies 'god or elemental' and thus doesn't work. The second clause, which applies against a spirit 'of any kind' present in the scene, does. This allows you to lay a powerful binding against the target, so now you can bind Cataphracts as bodyguards and Lorelei as court musicians or whatnot. This is a very roundabout way of getting First Circle [Raksha] Summoning, which doesn't otherwise exists.

Performance

Song of Spirit Persuasion:
Straightforward 'apply powerful emotional Intimacy,' now with an expanded target range.

House of Battles

Presence

Water and Fire Legion:
Bind a target to protect something you care about, now with an extended target list. Same deal as Ice-and-Fire Binding with a different tone and emotional context.

War

Training Mandate of War-God Puissance:
You can now teach Wretches spirit Charms appropriate to their nature. It's not clear what exactly that means - I don't think a raksha can straight up learn an elemental's Charms - but it probably means you can teach them other Charms from their own splat. I'm not sure there are many non-spirit undead that have access to Charms?

House of Secrets

Larceny

Sanctum-Breaching Heist:
Theoretically, this would allow you to enter a Wretch's sanctum, if such a thing existed. In any case any such thing would likely come under 'magical barrier or crossing' and the Charm would be usable regardless of FiAT.

Lore

Of Secrets Yet Untold:
The target of this Charm learns a secret about the future which is highly valuable to them and puts them in your debt, but which you will never learn yourself; they must repay that debt by performing a service for you that is chosen by the Storyteller within the broad remit of being beneficial to you. Doing this kind of thing with an undead or a fae is definitely a very, very good idea which you should absolutely do at the earliest opportunity.

Occult

Incite Decorum:
I had to read that Charm twice to work out how this would work because there is an order-of-priority thing happening here. The Charm has one clause that affects 'gods and elementals', and one Charm that affects 'spirits who are enemies of fate,' but no clause that affects spirits in general. But we check for FiAT before checking for Incite Decorum; so if we meet a raksha, FiAT checks for 'un-Exalted enemy of fate' and says 'this now counts as a spirit,' then Incite Decorum checks for 'this is a spirit who is an enemy of fate,' and applies properly. This is great if you're a diplomatic envoy to the fae courts.

Mark of Exaltation: This one stands out for being the first time FiAT has a negative effect; Wretches can now see your caste mark when you use MoE, and recognize you as a Sidereal if they have the right background.

Manifestation-Haling Summons: This Charm technically expands its range to Wretches, but almost none of them will have the ability to dematerialize in the first place, so it's irrelevant.
Tell-Tale Symphony: You can now hear dematerialized Wretches. See above.

Official Notice of Alienation: You can now expel Wretches possessing people, which seems like a rare edge case. You can also banish Wretches as if they were spirits, but since the Charm already allows you to banish 'enemies of fate native to other worlds,' the effect is incredibly marginal unless your ST rules raksha aren't native to another world.

House of Endings

Awareness

Supernal Awareness:
With FiAT, when you activate the Charm to sense all activities by spirits in the vicinity, this will also cover all Wretches as part of its effect. You can now easily track zombies bursting out of graveyards and goblins slipping under children's beds. Very useful in particularly miserable areas.

Bureaucracy

Terminal Sanction:
Probably the most important combination of the lot. I think raksha permadie when killed by default, but if your particular fae antagonist has Changeling-style Titles bullshit where they burn through their names to come back, this'll put a stop to that. More importantly, any Wretch you kill can be sealed in a rice cooker or bound to your service by a Defining Tie of loyalty for a year and a day. "Kill powerful fae lord, make it serve you" is the kind of thing I'm here for.

Anything Else

I believe this covers the entire native Sidereal Charm set. If I have missed anything, feel free to point it out.

Conclusion

Every House has at least two Charms which are enhanced by FiAT to some degree. The House of Journeys and Secrets have the most, although they are not necessarily the best.

All in all, I can see FiAT being an invaluable addition to your character's Charm in one situation, and one situation alone: you are in a game where the fae are a very important presence and make up a plurality of your allies, antagonists, and neutral third parties. Being in one such game myself, I intend to make FiAT my first E3 purchase and am a bit annoyed I will have to wait that long.

However, it is a bit galling that it is E3, precisely because it is so limited. Its expansion is lateral, and only partially upwards, in that some fae may reach the power of a Second Circle Demon or one of the greater dead, depending on your table, but there will always be few, and Sidereal Charms can already affect high-Essence gods by default.

FiAT seems to me to be written under the assumption that it has a combinatorial risk that warrants putting it fairly high in the game progression, but as far as I can tell it doesn't really. While it would have marginal utility in an Underworld game or a game dealing heavily with the dead, most undead are spirits. Ghosts are, mortwights are, nephwracks are, deathlords are. Most undead that are not spirits are animated flesh puppets, whether zombies or necrotech horror, and the majority of those are not sapient, and as such a lot of the social or binding effects enabled by FiAT seem irrelevant. Meanwhile, all demons are spirits, and the Liminals, Getimians and Infernals are all Exalted.

This does not make FiAT a 'bad Charm', and I'll happily buy it when the time comes, but it definitely seems like it has a focus that is simultaneously very broad and very narrow: it affects basically everything that comes out of the Wyld, from goblins to raksha to unique horrors to the most warped of Wyld mutants, and that's mostly it. For my purposes, that's great. Some games never deal with the Wyld at all though, and FiAT could probably do with being worded in a way that more strongly emphasize its effective focus.

All that said, I can't wait to murder a raksha and raise it as my bound fae. TDS Sei represent looking at you @EarthScorpion
 
All in all, I can see FiAT being an invaluable addition to your character's Charm in one situation, and one situation alone: you are in a game where the fae are a very important presence and make up a plurality of your allies, antagonists, and neutral third parties. Being in one such game myself, I intend to make FiAT my first E3 purchase and am a bit annoyed I will have to wait that long.

However, it is a bit galling that it is E3, precisely because it is so limited. Its expansion is lateral, and only partially upwards, in that some fae may reach the power of a Second Circle Demon or one of the greater dead, depending on your table, but there will always be few, and Sidereal Charms can already affect high-Essence gods by default.
hrm-hrms

I'm inclined to agree with this, as the best combo effect (teach them spirit Charms) is E3 already. Gonna go make a quick houserule~
 
hrm-hrms

I'm inclined to agree with this, as the best combo effect (teach them spirit Charms) is E3 already. Gonna go make a quick houserule~

I will note that there's actually a sizable class of being that might fall under this that makes it rather less niche, depending on whether you believe they classify as "enemies of fate"; the various x-blooded descended from enemies of fate. Demonblooded, faeblooded, ghost-blooded, etc. And they have an important role to play as early-game "empowered human" antagonists. You probably don't want any effect that trivialises them to show up too early.
 
I will note that there's actually a sizable class of being that might fall under this that makes it rather less niche, depending on whether you believe they classify as "enemies of fate"; the various x-blooded descended from enemies of fate. Demonblooded, faeblooded, ghost-blooded, etc. And they have an important role to play as early-game "empowered human" antagonists. You probably don't want any effect that trivialises them to show up too early.
I don't actually count x-blooded as enemies of fate, in general, though some of them are CoDs. The mortal children of demons and monsters are never enemies of fate unless they develop so much that they're closer to their parent than their humanity.
 
I genuinely don't think I've ever heard a "this new kind of Exalt 3e added just doesn't feel like an Exalt to me" argument that felt even slightly persuasive, and at this point I've heard them for:

- Exigents
- Liminals
- Getimians
- Hearteaters

And I have actually heard people trying to unironically say this about Lunars as well, which is its own thing.

It's just always setting up rules for what an Exalt is post-hoc, usually in a way that's neither well thought out nor wholly consistent with previous material. Like, yeah, sure, Hearteaters, these magical beings who are humans Chosen by a Celestial Incarna, who have anima banners and excellencies and Exalt charms and who are thematically tied to a magical material and can do the various things that Exalts can generally do, are not Exalts. Right. This is definitely a coherent thing to just assert and not at all a massive waste of everyone's time.
While I do not like Exigents or most of the fluff we have for Getimians, I would not say they do not feel like Exalted. The same can not be said for Liminals however. In the past, Exaltations recognized viable hosts based off a soul that meets certain qualifications. Liminals are clearly just an attempt to shoehorn Promethean into Exalted with the Divine Fire replaced with an Exaltation.

In my opinion, Liminals are just a symptom of a larger problem with Exalted: the belief that only Exalts matter. I would be fine with them if they were a unique thing rather than making them a kind of Exalt. Jadeborn are cool, people seem to like Dragon Kings, and from what I have seen, the only reason more people did not play Raksha is because their rules are confusing as shit and their powers are garbage outside the Wyld.
 
Liminals are clearly just an attempt to shoehorn Promethean into Exalted with the Divine Fire replaced with an Exaltation.
I don't think that Liminals as they have been depicted in, say, Exalted Essence could be credibly characterised that way. There is obviously some inspiration drawn from Prometheans, but like... What they are and what they do and their themes and place in the world make that comparison about as illuminating as any of the "this Exalt type is based on a World of Darkness thing" pitches tend to be: you end up with so many misunderstandings that have to be explained away later that it's not even worth it.

I find a lot of people who think this like, read the Liminals preview from back in the day, formed an opinion on them then, and have basically just let it calcify unchanged in the years since.

In my opinion, Liminals are just a symptom of a larger problem with Exalted: the belief that only Exalts matter.
I find it legitimately difficult to credit that any good faith reading of the Ex3 books could support "Exalted believes that only Exalts matter", especially when compared to the older material. Mortals as active participants in the setting with agency and cool things going on is all over the setting material.
 
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In general, it is hard to avoid a feeling like the proliferation in the number and variety of Exalts in 3e hardly contributes to making the game more about how only Exalts matter - the opposite, I believe, is the case.

One of the problems of 2e fluff (and especially 2e fan attitudes) was how you could actually count how many meaningful characters there were in the setting. You had somewhere around 150 Solars, somewhere around 100 Abyssals, 50 Infernals, 300 Lunars, 100 Sidereals... and that's it. Then, there were the Dragonbloods, but they tended to be routinely dismissed, and certainly didn't step up power-wise when it came to mechanics. There were fewer types of Exalts, sure, but Exaltation itself was a far more restricted category.

One of the better moves in 3e fluff was to dispense with such hard numbers, but also make exaltations far more widespread. There is no telling how many lunars, solars, or other splats there are in the setting, and the number of all exigents, liminals, getimians, all the other possible apocryphals and so on is just unknown. As a result, 3e fluff is far more permissive of having singular, strange characters pop up in weird places, wielding unique powers. Designating them as Exalted helps standarize the mechanics somewhat, and helps attach them to the core idea of what Exalted is about (mortals endowed with supernatural superpowers, representing emissaries of various, more distant forces), but it also makes exaltations themselves something less setting-defining.

The fact that in 3e fluff you can have the odd Exigent working alongside a Wyld Hunt, or a freshly exalted Abyssal fall to an experienced Liminal ghost hunter widens the setting considerably. The more exaltations there are, the less they feel as singular and setting-defining things. Which may be a flaw for some, but at the end of the day 3e made being Exalt less special, while also working towards making it more significant (Fangs at the Gate are a particularly good exemplification of that). 3e's Creation is just more spacious, and if sometimes it is hard to tell if the dude you are dealing with is some weird, previously unknown exalt, or a spirit, or something else entirely is a part of that. Gone are the days of a definite, closed roll of celestial exaltations, the 700-odd names long list of people who matter.
 
I don't think that Liminals as they have been depicted in, say, Exalted Essence could be credibly characterised that way. There is obviously some inspiration drawn from Prometheans, but like... What they are and what they do and their themes and place in the world make that comparison about as illuminating as any of the "this Exalt type is based on a World of Darkness thing" pitches tend to be: you end up with so many misunderstandings that have to be explained away later that it's not even worth it.

I find a lot of people who think this like, read the Liminals preview from back in the day, formed an opinion on them then, and have basically just let it calcify unchanged in the years since.


I find it legitimately difficult to credit that any good faith reading of the Ex3 books could support "Exalted believes that only Exalts matter", especially when compared to the older material. Mortals as active participants in the setting with agency and cool things going on is all over the setting material.
While I will not argue that a lot of my negative opinions stem from out of date information, a big reason that is the case is because what was presented in Essence was not compelling enough for me to change my opinions, so I tend to fall back on the ill will that was stoked in me all those years ago. I have a bad memory, but things I like, I tend to reread, but in the case of the Essence draft, I read it once and did not particularly care for what I saw. The only things that are memorable to me is liking how Abyssals were handled even if I dislike Resonance being replaced by the Great Curse for fluff reasons, hating Infernals, and being disappointed with Getimians, even if I found the idea of people who never existed exalting kind of cool.

As for the mortal thing, I was talking about player character support. Sure, AotR reintroduces mortal martial artists and sorcery is a lot more powerful than it used to be do to sorcerous workings, but I want something that is not a just a different flavor of human unless it is a radical change, like ghosts.
 
In general, it is hard to avoid a feeling like the proliferation in the number and variety of Exalts in 3e hardly contributes to making the game more about how only Exalts matter - the opposite, I believe, is the case.

One of the problems of 2e fluff (and especially 2e fan attitudes) was how you could actually count how many meaningful characters there were in the setting. You had somewhere around 150 Solars, somewhere around 100 Abyssals, 50 Infernals, 300 Lunars, 100 Sidereals... and that's it. Then, there were the Dragonbloods, but they tended to be routinely dismissed, and certainly didn't step up power-wise when it came to mechanics. There were fewer types of Exalts, sure, but Exaltation itself was a far more restricted category.

One of the better moves in 3e fluff was to dispense with such hard numbers, but also make exaltations far more widespread. There is no telling how many lunars, solars, or other splats there are in the setting, and the number of all exigents, liminals, getimians, all the other possible apocryphals and so on is just unknown. As a result, 3e fluff is far more permissive of having singular, strange characters pop up in weird places, wielding unique powers. Designating them as Exalted helps standarize the mechanics somewhat, and helps attach them to the core idea of what Exalted is about (mortals endowed with supernatural superpowers, representing emissaries of various, more distant forces), but it also makes exaltations themselves something less setting-defining.

The fact that in 3e fluff you can have the odd Exigent working alongside a Wyld Hunt, or a freshly exalted Abyssal fall to an experienced Liminal ghost hunter widens the setting considerably. The more exaltations there are, the less they feel as singular and setting-defining things. Which may be a flaw for some, but at the end of the day 3e made being Exalt less special, while also working towards making it more significant (Fangs at the Gate are a particularly good exemplification of that). 3e's Creation is just more spacious, and if sometimes it is hard to tell if the dude you are dealing with is some weird, previously unknown exalt, or a spirit, or something else entirely is a part of that. Gone are the days of a definite, closed roll of celestial exaltations, the 700-odd names long list of people who matter.
Sorry for missing this. The only real thing I have to say about it is just because something is less special does not necessarily make it less important. I feel like the way Exigents were implemented makes them feel like an unimportant sideshow compared to the old Exalts.

It's more that Exalted has always wanted 'non-human' to be meaningful, sometimes to its detriment as that's a major part of why Fair Folk are so confusing.
True enough. It can be difficult to put a new spin on things, but you can do that without creating an entirely new system that barely interacts with everything else.
 
I enjoy working with basically every splat and other not quite mortals when it comes to antagonists. But the only one I dislike working with is Fae. I'm not sure why but I feel like I'm unable to make anything cool with them. Wyld marshes are great to work with. I just rip off that one chapter of Beserk.
 
While I can certainly understand someone disliking the treatment of Liminals in Exalted essence, I'm rather surprised if their implementation seemed Promethean. It definitely didn't inspire any of their abilities or great curse manifestations.
 
it was all the powers with Alembic in the name, the ability to change between modes by reaching new stations on a philosophical journey, and the ability to heal themselves by grabbing powerlines that made it seem super promethean, to me
 
To my understanding Liminals are created by people, yes? As I see it you still have a theme of a mortal rising up above their station thanks to divine power, but in this case the mortal isn't the one who keeps the power. Instead they just make who gets the power.
 
While I can certainly understand someone disliking the treatment of Liminals in Exalted essence, I'm rather surprised if their implementation seemed Promethean. It definitely didn't inspire any of their abilities or great curse manifestations.
I don't feel like anyone who's done a close reading of the XS Liminal charmset actually feels this way, and the general opinion seems to be that it's that it's the best designed Exalt charmset in the book? Like, it's got a lot of really strong theming and flavour in there considering the limited space there is to explore it.
 
I enjoy working with basically every splat and other not quite mortals when it comes to antagonists. But the only one I dislike working with is Fae. I'm not sure why but I feel like I'm unable to make anything cool with them. Wyld marshes are great to work with. I just rip off that one chapter of Beserk.
The fae are, IMO, the actual best for this sort of thing. I'm running a game now, with @emeralis00, @Maugan Ra, and @Omicron, and it takes place in a fae dominion near Creation's southernmost border, on the Dreaming Sea, and the fae are the core allies and antagonists both. They have the pools and magic required to threaten and be useful to the Exalted, they're grand and magical and monstrous in the ways required for interesting and memorable enemies, and they're personable enough to make friends and allies, if you have a PC group willing to put up with them.

Just recently Maugan's Solar actually had a duel with a Fair Folk Lorelei assassin that ended in both of them horribly injured, Maugan's character hilariously poisoned, and the fae defected to him, offering service in exchange for her life. A Fae Cataphract has been a major figure for most of the game so far, and a fae noble, the Duchess Fantastical, is the current arc antagonist.

though it helps that I've read tons of stories about fae and a lot of the Exalted material about them in prior editions and tons of old poetry and changeling: the lost, which could be the source of your issue

Read all the Dresden Files books and then a bunch of old poetry and also Changeling and the Pratchett stuff with the elves and you might find writing fae comes much easier for you.
 
I enjoy working with basically every splat and other not quite mortals when it comes to antagonists. But the only one I dislike working with is Fae. I'm not sure why but I feel like I'm unable to make anything cool with them. Wyld marshes are great to work with. I just rip off that one chapter of Beserk.
My only issue is that I really want to do stuff with like... the PCs getting up to some 1e-esque Wyld Questing, fighting Unshaped and pulling artifacts and spells and stuff from the chaos of the Wyld.

I just have no idea what Unshaped are supposed to be like. >.<
 
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