The devs have said on the unofficial discord that of the three apocryphal exalted types listed in Exigents, Hearteaters are the least player facing. You certainly can make a Hearteater PC with some work, but as things stand they're there mostly for campaign villains.

None of the three are currently slated for a full comprehensive splat level writeup at the moment, what we have is basically a trial version to see which of the three are best recieved
 
Really all this questioning about Hearteaters playability ignores the vast constituency of people who will absolutely use 100 pages of mechanics and several dozen Charms to build their antagonists as full-fledged PCs, which consists principally of me. Quick Character Shmick Shmaracter, I will build Anys Syn as a full 1000xp Sidereal.
 
Which is why I stated that "for two editions the Solars were defined by having plentiful social charms and very little rule good charms".

Like this is specifically about how the addition of the Hearteaters represents a thematic change from 1e and 2e where there was (imo) a deliberate attempt to show that Solars ruled because they were persuasive and not necessarily because they were effective. Which ties into exalted's larger tendency to dig into a lot of typical powers/tropes and ask how things would shake out irl.

That's not even slightly true. According to second edition, Solars ruled because that was the decree of the Unconquered Sun after the Divine Revolution. Whenever second edition touched on why Solars ruled, it was because of the Creation-Ruling Mandate and their own incredible awesomeness. This is contrasted with Lunars who failed to lead because they were built to be second fiddle, and Dragon-Blooded, who always made a hash of things because they weren't Solars.

The idea that Solars' social Charms are intentionally horrifying and terrible and that's supposed to be a takeaway that players pick up on is just... not present in the published material. At all. It is entirely absent in favor of assuming that Solars are heroic protagonists. As Gazetteer put it yesterday, that's just a fandom thing that came from looking at the edition in a deeply cynical way and assuming worst-possible outcomes are a given. This is the Exalted equivalent of looking at Star Wars stories and saying "Sith kill people, but so do Jedi, so both of them are equally villainous and the Light Side of the Force is a lie". You can make that argument, but that is not the story given. (And also like Star Wars, enough writers have touched the property that you can find a tiny amount of textual support for almost any viewpoint, but there's an extremely clear overall intent of the franchise)

In second edition, the place for "an Exalt who controls a vast thought-control network of loyal slaves" is... empty. That's not really a thing presented by the setting. The closest is the "akuma" stuff.

I don't know first edition; I wasn't in the fandom at the time and never went back to those books. But second edition is not as you are describing. Hearteaters didn't take this away from Solars; Solars were not this.
 
Okay, so not only are we back to "being really persuasive is basically mind control" logic, now we're also pretending that being really persuasive is a uniquely Solar thing. Because you know, it's not like anyone else has social charms or anything.

Solar's were the splat that was considered enough of a threat in the history of the setting (at least in some small part because of their persuasiveness) to have been hunted down en-mass and prevented from reincarnating, in a manner not unlike the Hearteaters.

The reason people compare the two is that "something ancient and beautiful, very likely beyond any true redemption" (as Gazetteer put it) is only a stone's throw away from Immaculate Order doctrine.
 
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Ya know

Evil campaigns aside

Maybe Hearteaters just aren't meant to be player characters and there's nothing wrong with that?

The devs have said on the unofficial discord that of the three apocryphal exalted types listed in Exigents, Hearteaters are the least player facing. You certainly can make a Hearteater PC with some work, but as things stand they're there mostly for campaign villains.
What he said
 
The Ancient Solars were explicitly hunted down and slain because they had the highest likelihood of accidentally destroying the world. That's been explicit since 1e and remains explicit in 3e, even with the absence of the Great Prophecy in the new Sidereals splat. Individual tyranny and abuses of power may have motivated some of the Bronze Faction, but the primary impetus is and always has been the capacity of the Solars to unmake Creation. The Adage of the Bronze Faction is not "Thus Always to Tyrants," its "Lesser But Safe."

In the meantime, can we steer this conversation away from Fandom perceptions of Solars from an edition of the game that's been dead for a decade. Please, it goes nowhere and it always goes nowhere.
 
That's not even slightly true. According to second edition, Solars ruled because that was the decree of the Unconquered Sun after the Divine Revolution. Whenever second edition touched on why Solars ruled, it was because of the Creation-Ruling Mandate and their own incredible awesomeness. This is contrasted with Lunars who failed to lead because they were built to be second fiddle, and Dragon-Blooded, who always made a hash of things because they weren't Solars.

The idea that Solars' social Charms are intentionally horrifying and terrible and that's supposed to be a takeaway that players pick up on is just... not present in the published material. At all. It is entirely absent in favor of assuming that Solars are heroic protagonists. As Gazetteer put it yesterday, that's just a fandom thing that came from looking at the edition in a deeply cynical way and assuming worst-possible outcomes are a given. This is the Exalted equivalent of looking at Star Wars stories and saying "Sith kill people, but so do Jedi, so both of them are equally villainous and the Light Side of the Force is a lie". You can make that argument, but that is not the story given. (And also like Star Wars, enough writers have touched the property that you can find a tiny amount of textual support for almost any viewpoint, but there's an extremely clear overall intent of the franchise)

In second edition, the place for "an Exalt who controls a vast thought-control network of loyal slaves" is... empty. That's not really a thing presented by the setting. The closest is the "akuma" stuff.

I don't know first edition; I wasn't in the fandom at the time and never went back to those books. But second edition is not as you are describing. Hearteaters didn't take this away from Solars; Solars were not this.

See Gaz, you're overestimating the quality of the line's historical writing again. It's not just a fandom-side thing; I can pop up Caste Book: Dawn and there's Lyta, brainwashing hundreds of mortals into blood-crazed fanatics to throw against Dragon-Blood as sacrifical hordes to drown them in a sea of bodies!
Omicron here is clearly against the idea, but they did save me the trouble of finding an example that shows this stuff has always been a part of exalted.

And like, not everyone has to like it. A lot of people can think that's dumb, and it doesn't have to exist in their version of exalted (there's a long post here about how the nature of an rpg setting is inherently fluid and personal both because it's a game meant to be played and defined by the players and because it is unreasonable to expect everyone to read all the material) but the skepticism of Solars has always been a core part of the RPGs DNA.

And that's something I really liked. I liked that exalted was a game with things to say about the nature of power, and great man theory. I liked that it looked at a lot of the fantasy/anime tropes about being the main character who decides the course of nations and said "that sucks actually". Exalted as a game has always been critical of power, and I've always really enjoyed that.
 
Really all this questioning about Hearteaters playability ignores the vast constituency of people who will absolutely use 100 pages of mechanics and several dozen Charms to build their antagonists as full-fledged PCs, which consists principally of me. Quick Character Shmick Shmaracter, I will build Anys Syn as a full 1000xp Sidereal.
A noble endeavor! If you every do write up a full 1000xp Anys Syn pls post her here.

Also, isn't it just the WoD curse that everybody always wants to be able to play as like... every possible faction in the setting? It's like... Exalted has had rules for playing Fair Folk going back to both previous editions! People are definitely gonna want to play Spoken, the Gigantes of Dis, the Yennin, and about a billion other things too! That's just the way of things.

Also there's already a full version of Hearteaters (for Exalted Essence). So like... if you describe it, they will come.
 
See Gaz, you're overestimating the quality of the line's historical writing again. It's not just a fandom-side thing; I can pop up Caste Book: Dawn and there's Lyta, brainwashing hundreds of mortals into blood-crazed fanatics to throw against Dragon-Blood as sacrifical hordes to drown them in a sea of bodies!
I am both regrettably familiar with this kind of depiction from older material (I've read Dreams of the First Age, although I've only skimmed Castebook Dawn), and occassionally talk to Solar fans who seem to believe it is a desirable play state and the game's failure to facilitate it is a problem.

(Usually to the tune of "depicting the population of the Blessed Isle as not being trivially magicked into loving a benevolent Anathema invader is bad and why Third Edition hates Solars")
 
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There is something that does confuse me in regard to Exalted fan discussion that I'm having a bit of trouble actually articulating, which is that there is a section of it that seems to genuinely believe that Exalted exists as a cohesive story and isn't just a background + some rules. A lot of arguments seem to stem from this idea, and I'm not sure how people come to this conclusion in the first place. For instance, I've seen arguments that Exigents are bad because they overlap in the narrative with other pre-existing Exalted types, or that the narrative import of Exaltation in general is cheapened by having too many new Exalt types, or so on. I'm not actually super into Exigents, all things considered, I felt that it's the book that draws me in the least and I've never been a fan of playing pre-made characters (which is half the book), but the argument is never about how their mechanics enable (or don't enable) fun gameplay at the table, it's almost always always narrative; "This Exigent should just be a Dawn because there's really no thematic point to them being a unique entity", or, "Really, the Exigency introduces logical problems to the setting because [insert stupid ass 2e-style plan to make a bunch of gods kill themselves to generate Exigencies that only an idiot would think of in the first place]."

I dunno, I just see this kind of thinking as inherently futile. I cannot imagine any of this improving how I do things as a ST, and it always feels like the poster in question is trying to affect how others and myself do things at our tables when we run this game. I'm not sure if I'm making sense explaining this, but its something I've encountered often and I'm really not sure how I'm supposed to react to it or what the point of it is.
 
I can't speak for anyone else, but I prefer to phrase my criticisms of Exalted's non-mechanical (and some relevant mechanical) choices in narrative terms because...well, this sort of RPG system is a storytelling tool. Splats exist to provide distinct angles and perspectives on the setting with interesting hooks to hang stories off of, this is an intended part of the fun of engaging in good faith with Exalted as a setting. If you just want to have fun farting about doing whatever without care or thematic direction, then there's plenty of setting agnostic games out there, Exalted is just a game built around a very distinct setting with its own specific narrative ideas and themes. If much broader ones than a more discrete novel or video game.
 
Omicron here is clearly against the idea, but they did save me the trouble of finding an example that shows this stuff has always been a part of exalted.

And like, not everyone has to like it. A lot of people can think that's dumb, and it doesn't have to exist in their version of exalted (there's a long post here about how the nature of an rpg setting is inherently fluid and personal both because it's a game meant to be played and defined by the players and because it is unreasonable to expect everyone to read all the material) but the skepticism of Solars has always been a core part of the RPGs DNA.

And that's something I really liked. I liked that exalted was a game with things to say about the nature of power, and great man theory. I liked that it looked at a lot of the fantasy/anime tropes about being the main character who decides the course of nations and said "that sucks actually". Exalted as a game has always been critical of power, and I've always really enjoyed that.

I'm all for people changing the setting in ways that suit them! That's great! But the idea that the game/setting/whatever is skeptical of Solars is simply not there in second edition. A casual run through the corebook pulling out the most obvious stuff:

The corebook opens with an 8 page comic depicting our iconic Solars being heroic as they investigate a situation, fight a god, and save people. The second comic has a Solar being heroic against an Abyssal.

The chapter 1 comic features one of our iconic Solars standing up to a tyrant. On page 24, it tells us that the Solars were really cool ("a time of miracles beyond description") until they were turned to evil by the Neverborn's Great Curse, and lays out that maybe the curse could have been ameliorated if the Sidereals had been wiser—it's ostensibly neutral on this, but I don't think it's weird to read this as being supportive of Solars. On page 31, we get a brief description of Solars as "The Solar Exalted are the Chosen of the Unconquered Sun, created to be the rulers of the world and the leaders of the other Exalted. Solar Exalted come in one of five castes. The Dawn Castes are unparalleled warriors, the Zenith Castes are priests and mystics, the Twilight Castes are savants and sorcerers, the Night Castes are spies and assassins, and the Eclipse Castes are diplomats and ambassadors." This says explicitly from an omniscient point of view that they were created to be rightful kings, not that they have social-fu to do it.

Chapter 2 comic: a Solar resisting temptation to destroy an evil artifact. Chapter 3 comic: a Solar defeating a clearly villain-coded character (which becomes openly villainous if you know who 'Sondok' is). Chapter 4 comic: a DB is reflecting on how bad he feels for killing a Solar, who was a young boy who was trying to stop the drug trade from harming his home. Chapter 5 comic: a Solar is negotiating with a spirit to save people from pirates. Chapters 6 and 7 comics: not about Solars. Chapter 8 has a Solar being cool and he's probably more heroic-coded than not. Ending comic is Kejak ruminating on the Solars' return and thinking that Solars are definitely going to be just as bad as before, and Nara-O isn't depicted as agreeing with this perspective, so it reads like the authors aren't agreeing with him.

This all isn't out of line with Solar depictions later in the edition's lifecycle. The idea that Solars were any sort of Hearteater-alike or that the game's books have much skepticism about their legitimate rule isn't there. You can dig up some support, but it's vastly less than the fact that... well, it repeatedly puts front and center the fact that Solars are cool and good and it's basically not right that they are denied rightful rule.
 
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The setting of Exalted is absolutely treated as a narrative toolset with specific thematic concerns and niches by its writers and readers. "But does this cool mechanic fuck up the intended meaning of the work" is absolutely a concern that's on the mind of everyone involved with the game. I honestly don't know what Exalted would even look like if that wasn't a priority.
 
"Really, the Exigency introduces logical problems to the setting because [insert stupid ass 2e-style plan to make a bunch of gods kill themselves to generate Exigencies that only an idiot would think of in the first place]."
In 1e Star Metal was made from dead gods; and there's the precedent of Shifune, a god who was forced in slavery with the approval of the Unconquered Sun.
 
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There is something that does confuse me in regard to Exalted fan discussion that I'm having a bit of trouble actually articulating, which is that there is a section of it that seems to genuinely believe that Exalted exists as a cohesive story and isn't just a background + some rules. A lot of arguments seem to stem from this idea, and I'm not sure how people come to this conclusion in the first place. For instance, I've seen arguments that Exigents are bad because they overlap in the narrative with other pre-existing Exalted types, or that the narrative import of Exaltation in general is cheapened by having too many new Exalt types, or so on. I'm not actually super into Exigents, all things considered, I felt that it's the book that draws me in the least and I've never been a fan of playing pre-made characters (which is half the book), but the argument is never about how their mechanics enable (or don't enable) fun gameplay at the table, it's almost always always narrative; "This Exigent should just be a Dawn because there's really no thematic point to them being a unique entity", or, "Really, the Exigency introduces logical problems to the setting because [insert stupid ass 2e-style plan to make a bunch of gods kill themselves to generate Exigencies that only an idiot would think of in the first place]."

I dunno, I just see this kind of thinking as inherently futile. I cannot imagine any of this improving how I do things as a ST, and it always feels like the poster in question is trying to affect how others and myself do things at our tables when we run this game. I'm not sure if I'm making sense explaining this, but its something I've encountered often and I'm really not sure how I'm supposed to react to it or what the point of it is.
So, there's a lot to unpack here and I don't really have the right language for this so forgive me if this is a little rambly.

So first of all, and I can't stress this enough, as a game Exalted is kinda shit. I can't speak too 3rd edition (beyond saying I bounced off of it) but the actual base mechanics of exalted have always been crap. If exalted existed purely as a game nobody would talk about it.

But Exalted was never been sold on the strength of its mechanics. It was sold on the strength of its setting. And its setting is amazing. But a setting is more than peoples, places and things. Its a narrative*. Its a story in and of itself. And that means it can be critiqued the same as any other story.

In the same way that I can say "Shadow the Hedgehog is a valuable addition to the canon of Sonic Stories because he is a stronger thematic rival to Sonic and allows Knuckles to pivot to a tertiary role which better utilizes his thematic strength (idk, I'm not a sonic nerd but I wanted something non-controversial" I can also say "The addition of the Hearteaters as the 'Evil Mind Control Splat' is emblematic of 3e's efforts to pivot away from their previous critical examinations of Great Man themes in fantasy literature." (Please don't respond to this if you disagree, I know lots of people do, its an example and I don't want to derail the conversation).

When people make these critiques they are not trying to tell others how to play the game, they are examining the game with a critical eye towards theming and messaging because the game is the story (note, the critiques don't have to be bad. I'm sure there are many people here who could talk about the many positive changes 3e has made and I myself do on the whole prefer hearteaters even if I do have some complaints).

Secondly, it is worth pointing out that these critiques often come about because "what is the setting" informs what sorts of stories you can tell. In many ways RPing in an established setting is very much like writing fanfiction. The constraints of "canon" define what the story can be about. Even if you choose to ignore a part of canon, its conspicuous absence is going to color your story.

As an example, lets say I run a campaign and in my world there are no DBs. This is a choice I have made. But the choice "Remove DBs" is very different from "the devs never added DBs in the first place". The first is making a conscious choice to alter the setting and thus is making a comment on the themes and makeup of the setting. The second is the choice to run things as written.

*More pointedly, it is a meta-narrative, like comics. The sheer breadth of material, the poor oversight and the plethora of authors means that the setting of Exalted is not one single story but a collection of different stories which mix together to form a only semi-coherent whole. Any effort to form a coherent view of the setting involves some amount of picking and choosing sources.
 
I'm all for people changing the setting in ways that suit them! That's great! But the idea that the game/setting/whatever is skeptical of Solars is simply not there in second edition. A casual run through the corebook pulling out the most obvious stuff:

The corebook opens with an 8 page comic depicting our iconic Solars being heroic as they investigate a situation, fight a god, and save people. The second comic has a Solar being heroic against an Abyssal.

The chapter 1 comic features one of our iconic Solars standing up to a tyrant. On page 24, it tells us that the Solars were really cool ("a time of miracles beyond description") until they were turned to evil by the Neverborn's Great Curse, and lays out that maybe the curse could have been ameliorated if the Sidereals had been wiser—it's ostensibly neutral on this, but I don't think it's weird to read this as being supportive of Solars. On page 31, we get a brief description of Solars as "The Solar Exalted are the Chosen of the Unconquered Sun, created to be the rulers of the world and the leaders of the other Exalted. Solar Exalted come in one of five castes. The Dawn Castes are unparalleled warriors, the Zenith Castes are priests and mystics, the Twilight Castes are savants and sorcerers, the Night Castes are spies and assassins, and the Eclipse Castes are diplomats and ambassadors." This says explicitly from an omniscient point of view that they were created to be rightful kings, not that they have social-fu to do it.

Chapter 2 comic: a Solar resisting temptation to destroy an evil artifact. Chapter 3 comic: a Solar defeating a clearly villain-coded character (which becomes openly villainous if you know who 'Sondok' is). Chapter 4 comic: a DB is reflecting on how bad he feels for killing a Solar, who was a young boy who was trying to stop the drug trade from harming his home. Chapter 5 comic: a Solar is negotiating with a spirit to save people from pirates. Chapters 6 and 7 comics: not about Solars. Chapter 8 has a Solar being cool and he's probably more heroic-coded than not. Ending comic is Kejak ruminating on the Solars' return and thinking that Solars are definitely going to be just as bad as before, and Nara-O isn't depicted as agreeing with this perspective, so it reads like the authors aren't agreeing with him.

This all isn't out of line with Solar depictions later in the edition's lifecycle. The idea that Solars were any sort of Hearteater-alike or that the game's books have much skepticism about their legitimate rule isn't there. You can dig up some support, but it's vastly less than the fact that... well, it repeatedly puts front and center the fact that Solars are cool and good and it's basically not right that they are denied rightful rule.
You are picking and choosing your examples here. Sure, the corebook has good things to say about the Solars (I would even go so far as to say it is predominantly positive but more on that in a bit) but it also has the Great Curse (which is specifically and explicitly about forcing players to embrace Solars as Heroes in the old school sense of Great but not necessarily good), all the social charms (Killgrave+), the fact that the Solar Exaltation selects for capability for great deeds not moral worth, and explicitly talks about the Solars turning evil at the end of the First Age.

Notably though, and this is important, you are only looking at the corebook. And the corebook for exalted isn't just the core it is also the splat book for the Solars. And each's splat's book has always been told from their PoV. They are inherently and deliberately biased to paint the group in a good light in order to help players get into their headspace and make them more appealing to play.

And once you leave core you start running into a ton of examples on how the Solars might not be the heroes you think they are.

Now, I will say the line as a whole does lean favorable towards the Solars because they are the "default splat". But it has never not been critical of them and their power if you care to look.
 
Like, their has always been a contrast between the *aesthetics* of the Solars (glowing gold, heroic, skilled not strong, etc) which makes them look like heroes (in the modern sense) and the reality of Solars (they are not chosen for goodness just greatness, their powers are often differ mechanically from other splat powers from just being stronger even if they aesthetic difference makes solar powers *seem* more heroic/moral, etc) which is that they are Heroes (old school).

Like, I can always only speak for myself, but I think this contrast doesn't actually... exist?

Like, I started with 2e and went on to 3e, and "heroes in the classical sense of the word" is how Solars were sold to me. That aspect of them isn't obscured or otherwise cleverly hidden behind a facade of unambiguous niceness. The game always said that solars have done and can do horrible things.

But that's because the central dilemma of the Solars is overwhelming, realm-conquering power. They're Achilles in his tent, playing with the fates of millions in a fit of pique. Solars pose the question: Great Man Theory is Real, so what do these Great Men do? They can do anything if they put their minds to it. Will it be glorious or terrible? Will we create a Golden Age or burn the world? A Solar is as capable of slaying the evil dragon and saving the princess as they are of crushing the jeweled crowns of the earth beneath their feet. They're a glorious legend of ancient times returned to a diminished world, and their footsteps make kingdoms tremble.

The Horror of Solars has never been "Kilgrave" or whatever. The Horror of Solars (If that's the right term) is "you've given incredible divine power to people who are definitionally both flawed and ambitious."
 
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The setting of Exalted is absolutely treated as a narrative toolset with specific thematic concerns and niches by its writers and readers. "But does this cool mechanic fuck up the intended meaning of the work" is absolutely a concern that's on the mind of everyone involved with the game. I honestly don't know what Exalted would even look like if that wasn't a priority.
Scroll of the Monk.
 
And that's something I really liked. I liked that exalted was a game with things to say about the nature of power, and great man theory. I liked that it looked at a lot of the fantasy/anime tropes about being the main character who decides the course of nations and said "that sucks actually". Exalted as a game has always been critical of power, and I've always really enjoyed that.
You can still be skeptical of persuasive people who are preying on people's hopes and fears or a social dynamic that exists because of a power disparity.
 
Which is why I stated that "for two editions the Solars were defined by having plentiful social charms and very little rule good charms".

Like this is specifically about how the addition of the Hearteaters represents a thematic change from 1e and 2e where there was (imo) a deliberate attempt to show that Solars ruled because they were persuasive and not necessarily because they were effective. Which ties into exalted's larger tendency to dig into a lot of typical powers/tropes and ask how things would shake out irl.

3e adding more bureaucracy charms is only relevant to the discussion in that it further emphasizes 3e's move away from this idea (which makese sad but is not really a complaint about Hearteaters at that point).
To clarify, you are maintaining a distance between ruling "super good" and ruling with charisma? What constitutes ruling super good?
 
The Horror of Solars has never been "Kilgrave" or whatever. The Horror of Solars (If that's the right term) is "you've given incredible divine power to people who are definitionally both flawed and ambitious."
It's funny that you mention Kilgrave because literally half an hour ago I was regalling Discord with the tale of HAVESH THE VANISHER and @TenfoldShields's reply was "yeah season 1 of Jessica Jones was alright"
 
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The setting of Exalted is absolutely treated as a narrative toolset with specific thematic concerns and niches by its writers and readers. "But does this cool mechanic fuck up the intended meaning of the work" is absolutely a concern that's on the mind of everyone involved with the game. I honestly don't know what Exalted would even look like if that wasn't a priority.
Sure. I just don't know about some of the arguments being made since they don't seem to be angled towards improving a ST's ability to create a narrative with the tools given, but are instead pedantic and disregard the themes of human behavior underlying everything the Exalted do. For an example from older days, the weird fixation on Dragon-blooded breeding tended to ignore the idea that each Dragon-blooded is a human being that enjoys things like reading, being able to go to the park on Sunsday, and so on in favor of treating them like battery chickens. The Exigents argument of "the setting does not make sense because clearly the UCS would maximize the amount of Exalts possible by making unemployed gods play the Exigent Roulette" also seems to disregard that the UCS made the Exigency in the first place so he'd have total control over who gets an Exaltation (rather than leaving it to open source) and he's already seen his own Exalts completely shit the bed and fuck everything up.

Like I said, I'm finding it hard to articulate what I'm finding distasteful about some of these arguments (and also I am just tired as all hell because i've been recovering from a week long bout of insomnia) and I've probably just contradicted my prior post with this one, so forgive me.
 
I see the Hearteaters as providing more options instead of conflicting with Solar social fu. If your Solars come up against a GREAT and GLORIOUS god queen that's a Solar you come into questions of what they're power is for or the realization that if the PCs aren't careful they could become like that in time.

There's nothing wrong with that. Those are some strong themes, but sometimes you don't want that. Hearteaters provide an alternative.
 
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