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General Exalted Thread

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Aleph said:
Yeah, so I was reading something the other day and one of the antagonists in it inspired me and then a couple of other antagonists from other things I've read got involved and long story short have a Third Circle demon. She's nice!

🌻😃

Drosera, the Smiling Sundew
Demon of the Third Circle
Second Soul of Metagaos

Drosera is friendly. Drosera is sweet. Drosera treats all alike, whether prince or pauper. She judges no-one by their station or nature, gives herself no airs, demands no special treatment. Drosera's gentle smile and heartfelt compliments have brought joy to many in their final, peaceful moments.

Such are the lies of the Thousand-Toothed Blossom's secondborn soul.

The Smiling Sundew smiles, always. She bares her teeth at the world, so charmingly that none notice they are sharp until too late. She makes no judgements by rank or birth; all creatures are but meat to her, one carcass no different from the next. She is affable, informal and easy-natured, for she knows that pretty-petalled behaviour lures fresh victims into her razor jaws. She is earnest, sweet and complimentary, for it is polite to congratulate one's food on its delectable flavour.

The writings of the old Deliberative name Drosera a monster even among other demons; a cannibal flower with an endless hunger. In form she resembles a sunflower, though botanists recognise her petals as the sticky, beaded leaves of a sundew. Her only human features are her grey eyes and her ever-present crescent smile, but she can use vines and leaves as prehensile limbs in seemingly endless supply. Though she can shrink to the height of grass or loom as high as the tallest trees, she prefers to stand at human height - flavour is better savoured bite by bite than in a single gulp. Sometimes she weaves her vines and stalks together to become a great serpentine beast with a flowerbloom head and a thousand-fanged maw, and in this guise she can devour an army in moments.

In Hell, she makes her home in a great field on the outskirts of the Hungry Swamp where brightly-coloured flowers blossom in the dull grey boggy soil, each a carnivore that twines its roots around countless bones. These blossoms are her children, and though she will sacrifice them if need be, she is a proud mother who delights in sharing the merits and virtues of anything floral. That plants are superior to beasts and men is self-evident in her eyes, and she is greatly pleased when creatures of flesh and blood agree with her. Often, no more than sweet flattery and promises of devoted care are needed to coax her into yielding whatever rare flower or exotic tree a petitioner might wish for, grown from the corpse of some small game or slaughtered cow. Transforming fauna into flora is within her power, but she considers this a precious gift she only grants to those who impress her greatly.

Drosera's appetite for meat knows no limits. She sallies forth often from her fields to glut herself on Malfean battlefields, and would devour her fellow Unquestionable if she could, even her own brothers and sisters. Nothing will ever sate her, and in the grip of her bloodthirsty urges she knows no loyalty and holds nothing sacred. Those who entreat with her thus know, if they are wise, to bring easy food to sate her while they bargain. She will take an easy platter over difficult prey, and is wise enough to value a returning source of food over a single meal. Her cunning echoes the manner of roots that seek any crack in stone to break it apart, and she excels in finding loopholes and weaknesses in an enemy's defences. Some ask her to advise them in their strategems and accept the occasional subordinate going missing as they bargain; victims claimed in moments of vulnerability.

The Smiling Sundew's world is one where plants and beasts are ever at odds. She considered Sextes Jylis her favourite child in a bygone age, and never truly accepted his treachery. Even to this day, she hopes for reconciliation like an estranged, possessive mother, and favours Wood Aspects and elementals as honorary plants and beloved grandchildren. Gifts of green jade or hearthstones of Wood delight her enough to earn her favour, and though a treacherous grandchild will rouse her to terrible ire, she will always offer them repentence in her service before dealing a killing blow.

Despite her monstrousness and the warnings in old Deliberative texts, sorcerers find many reasons to call upon the demon flower Drosera. Her command over plantlife is without peer, and if fed blood and bone her children can grow instantly into any form she asks. Ten cattle - or a single human sacrifice - can raise a crop field even on barren stone that will feed a hundred. She can command stone-shattering roots to bore tunnels and wells, till rocky ground into fertile fields, and even raise castles or fortifications of living wood that devour any who assault them. Her children must be fed in proportion to their deeds, but many is the king who would consider this cost acceptable.

If not for infrastructure, Drosera can be summoned for war. When turned loose to sate her appetite on an enemy, her sweet smile expands into a jagged crescent of fangs. Jaws open at the tip of every writhing vine and folding leaf, and the plants and flowers around her bay for blood. She is a nightmarish force of death who will freely submit to binding if offered a large enough meal. A cold-blooded sorcerer may not care about the grisly toll her actions reap. Fire finds no purchase on her leaves, but boiling water pains her terribly when it scalds her roots, and she will not fight on volcanic ground for fear of geothermal springs. Any who discover this weakness die.

Her Greater Self's hunger clutches Drosera tightly, and her roots are always starving. Though she cannot turn against her summoner, she cannot be bound to refrain from sating her appetite, and though she can be ordered to abstain from human flesh, such commands last only as long as her stomach remains full. She gains a point of Limit for each hour she goes unfed on meat or blood. So close does the Swamp's hunger clutch her that it is difficult for her to escape Hell's confines. Nonetheless, there are places in Creation, flower fields whose roots twine around the bones of a thousand slaughtered men and women, that serve as weak points she can grow through. Though she can show her face in such places only for as long as human blood falls upon the flowers, this is usually long enough to eat her fill - and plant another carcass in the soil.
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hey @emeralis00 you're planning to wipe out ysyr when you get Solar Sorcery right, check this out
 
I know Lucid Enigma Labyrinth was the Disco Elysium charm, but Witness Invention Technique is great for if you want a buddy cop comedy with your Horrific Necktie
 
Aleph said:
Despite her monstrousness and the warnings in old Deliberative texts, sorcerers find many reasons to call upon the demon flower Drosera. [snip]

Her Greater Self's hunger clutches Drosera tightly, and her roots are always starving. Though she cannot turn against her summoner, she cannot be bound to refrain from sating her appetite, and though she can be ordered to abstain from human flesh, such commands last only as long as her stomach remains full. She gains a point of Limit for each hour she goes unfed on meat or blood.
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Ah, I can see it very clearly now. The classic scene where the battle is over, the sorcerer who summoned her has lost everything, army broken, populace freed, but they think they can use Drosera while the binding lasts to win back their fortune. So the plot in the dark monologuing about how this will all soon turn around.

Only... She is so very, very hungry. And her summoner, in their failure and folly, is the only meat around.

I'm not fully versed in how far binding will protect the sorcerer themselves but, at the very least, it certainly seems like a way in which prior sorcerers have lost all their most trusted and loyal subordinates, as such were the only ones who stayed by their side when all was lost.

Honestly, she seems like a summon made for the exceptionally callous, and also one, made to doom those who have callow and ambition in too great of abundance. Sure, you can to feed men instead of animals to be more efficient. Sure you can raise great works of infrastructure, and if you do... well, the note how her infrastructural say they "must be fed in proportion to their deed" seems very close to her escape condition. A modest work may not suffice to meet that level, but Adamant Circle sorcery is not exactly about modesty.
 
Aleph said:
Nonetheless, there are places in Creation, flower fields whose roots twine around the bones of a thousand slaughtered men and women, that serve as weak points she can grow through. Though she can show her face in such places only for as long as human blood falls upon the flowers, this is usually long enough to eat her fill - and plant another carcass in the soil.
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Great write up. But I really really like this tidbit a lot. It means I can setup situations in ways that don't result in a full breakout into creation? I could lightly guide the players to have a battle take place in a garden like this.

Then I could have a really creepy scene and the power of a third circle showing itself. But only for a moment. A fleeting experience that doesn't result in the entire region going in up flames with one actually getting out.
 
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Lily Carnation is also the same concept space as Drosera, but is not the original genesis for her write-up (anyone who does get it earns a prize, tbh, because I suspect it's a somewhat obscure work).
 
Aleph said:
Lily Carnation is also the same concept space as Drosera, but is not the original genesis for her write-up (anyone who does get it earns a prize, tbh, because I suspect it's a somewhat obscure work).
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She's definitely giving me Yuuka vibes, what with the fields of flowers, although Yuuka is a bit too human shaped. If Flowey isn't it, then Yuuka probably isn't either. I'm mostly familiar with her through Imperfect Metamorphosis. IM's Yuuka is probably more similar to Drosera than canon Yuuka, although it has been a while since I read it.
 
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Drosera's big flower-faced worm form calls to mind a floral Yaldabaoth from Homestuck.


Always did like that funky sun-snake.
 
I swear to god that either I or someone else once posted 'What if their was a Goth Gay Bar in the Demon city that Infernalist DB's occasionally hung out at' in this thread. Whoever you are, you have been living rent free in my head for years.
 
Well, in the process of writing a backstory for my Sidereal character, I've come up with a homebrewed Shahan-ya and heavily referenced @EarthScorpion's Taira homebrew :p

(I'm going to review said Shahan-ya a bit before posting her up, mind you)
 
Aleph said:
Yeah, so I was reading something the other day and one of the antagonists in it inspired me and then a couple of other antagonists from other things I've read got involved and long story short have a Third Circle demon. She's nice!

🌻😃

Drosera, the Smiling Sundew
Demon of the Third Circle
Second Soul of Metagaos
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Very Very nice.

This seems exactly like the sort of Demon that would seem perfect for unwise celestial sorcerers to summon thinking they can direct despite them not being able to bind it. Also an excellent way of setting up a particularly creepy battlefield for Sidereals to try and burn out/seal before she manages to escape into creation.
 
Aleph said:
Yeah, so I was reading something the other day and one of the antagonists in it inspired me and then a couple of other antagonists from other things I've read got involved and long story short have a Third Circle demon. She's nice!

🌻😃

Drosera, the Smiling Sundew
Demon of the Third Circle
Second Soul of Metagaos

Drosera is friendly. Drosera is sweet. Drosera treats all alike, whether prince or pauper. She judges no-one by their station or nature, gives herself no airs, demands no special treatment. Drosera's gentle smile and heartfelt compliments have brought joy to many in their final, peaceful moments.

Such are the lies of the Thousand-Toothed Blossom's secondborn soul.

The Smiling Sundew smiles, always. She bares her teeth at the world, so charmingly that none notice they are sharp until too late. She makes no judgements by rank or birth; all creatures are but meat to her, one carcass no different from the next. She is affable, informal and easy-natured, for she knows that pretty-petalled behaviour lures fresh victims into her razor jaws. She is earnest, sweet and complimentary, for it is polite to congratulate one's food on its delectable flavour.

The writings of the old Deliberative name Drosera a monster even among other demons; a cannibal flower with an endless hunger. In form she resembles a sunflower, though botanists recognise her petals as the sticky, beaded leaves of a sundew. Her only human features are her grey eyes and her ever-present crescent smile, but she can use vines and leaves as prehensile limbs in seemingly endless supply. Though she can shrink to the height of grass or loom as high as the tallest trees, she prefers to stand at human height - flavour is better savoured bite by bite than in a single gulp. Sometimes she weaves her vines and stalks together to become a great serpentine beast with a flowerbloom head and a thousand-fanged maw, and in this guise she can devour an army in moments.

In Hell, she makes her home in a great field on the outskirts of the Hungry Swamp where brightly-coloured flowers blossom in the dull grey boggy soil, each a carnivore that twines its roots around countless bones. These blossoms are her children, and though she will sacrifice them if need be, she is a proud mother who delights in sharing the merits and virtues of anything floral. That plants are superior to beasts and men is self-evident in her eyes, and she is greatly pleased when creatures of flesh and blood agree with her. Often, no more than sweet flattery and promises of devoted care are needed to coax her into yielding whatever rare flower or exotic tree a petitioner might wish for, grown from the corpse of some small game or slaughtered cow. Transforming fauna into flora is within her power, but she considers this a precious gift she only grants to those who impress her greatly.

Drosera's appetite for meat knows no limits. She sallies forth often from her fields to glut herself on Malfean battlefields, and would devour her fellow Unquestionable if she could, even her own brothers and sisters. Nothing will ever sate her, and in the grip of her bloodthirsty urges she knows no loyalty and holds nothing sacred. Those who entreat with her thus know, if they are wise, to bring easy food to sate her while they bargain. She will take an easy platter over difficult prey, and is wise enough to value a returning source of food over a single meal. Her cunning echoes the manner of roots that seek any crack in stone to break it apart, and she excels in finding loopholes and weaknesses in an enemy's defences. Some ask her to advise them in their strategems and accept the occasional subordinate going missing as they bargain; victims claimed in moments of vulnerability.

The Smiling Sundew's world is one where plants and beasts are ever at odds. She considered Sextes Jylis her favourite child in a bygone age, and never truly accepted his treachery. Even to this day, she hopes for reconciliation like an estranged, possessive mother, and favours Wood Aspects and elementals as honorary plants and beloved grandchildren. Gifts of green jade or hearthstones of Wood delight her enough to earn her favour, and though a treacherous grandchild will rouse her to terrible ire, she will always offer them repentence in her service before dealing a killing blow.

Notes and abilities: Despite her monstrousness and the warnings in old Deliberative texts, sorcerers find many reasons to call upon the demon flower Drosera. Her command over plantlife is without peer, and if fed blood and bone her children can grow instantly into any form she asks. Ten cattle - or a single human sacrifice - can raise a crop field even on barren stone that will feed a hundred for a year. She can command stone-shattering roots to bore tunnels and wells, till rocky ground into fertile fields, and even raise castles or fortifications of living wood that devour any who assault them. Her children must be fed in proportion to their deeds, but many is the king who would consider this cost acceptable.

If not for infrastructure, Drosera can be summoned for war. When turned loose to sate her appetite on an enemy, her sweet smile expands into a jagged crescent of slavering fangs. Jaws open at the tip of every writhing vine and folding leaf, and the plants and flowers around her bay for blood. Her sticky fronds wrap up her prey in inescapable gluey coils, digesting them in moments before unfurling for more. Such is her ravenous power, and so freely will she submit to binding if offered a large enough meal, that a cold-blooded sorcerer may not care about the grisly toll her actions reap. Fire finds no purchase on her leaves, but boiling water pains her terribly when it scalds her roots, and she will not fight on volcanic ground for fear of geothermal springs. Any who discover this weakness die; even her grandchildren are no exceptions to her willingness to keep her secret safe.

Her Greater Self's hunger clutches Drosera tightly, and her roots are always starving. Though she cannot turn against her summoner, she cannot be bound to refrain from sating her appetite, and though she can be ordered to abstain from human flesh, such commands last only as long as her stomach remains full. She gains a point of Limit for each hour she goes unfed on meat or blood. So close does the Swamp's hunger clutch her that it is difficult for her to escape Hell's confines. Nonetheless, there are places in Creation, flower fields whose roots twine around the bones of a thousand slaughtered men and women, that serve as weak points she can grow through. Though she can show her face in such places only for as long as human blood falls upon the flowers, this is usually long enough to eat her fill - and plant another carcass in the soil.
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Aleph said:
It was something else I read, but that something may have been inspired by Flowey, and some of Flowey definitely got involved with her in the creation process either way. Any comments on her? I tried to make her usable in games beyond just being a monster, even if the cannibal flower is, fundamentally, what you will always end up dealing with if you mess around with her for long enough.
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Hrrrrmmmmmmmm...

While the basic concept feels a little like a funhouse mirror version of the Shashalme, I think you did more than enough to flesh out Drusera and make her feel distinct and 'whole'. The parts about her opinions on Sextes Jylis, plants, and Wood Aspects in particular are quite good - and her release condition is clever in a way that I can't fully put into words at the moment.


Aleph said:
Lily Carnation is also the same concept space as Drosera, but is not the original genesis for her write-up (anyone who does get it earns a prize, tbh, because I suspect it's a somewhat obscure work).
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What little I know of Lily Carnation is that it was... almost more like a hypothetical deathlord empowered by the hypothetical Neverborn form of Elloge?

A thing of death that pretends to be alive, a solitary predatory that surrounds itself with puppets so it can pretend it isn't alone. A monster which has lost its context, and tries to make others suffer the same to soothe its bitterness.
 
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GardenerBriareus said:
What little I know of Lily Carnation is that it was... almost more like a hypothetical deathlord empowered by the hypothetical Neverborn form of Elloge?
A thing of death that pretends to be alive, a solitary predatory that surrounds itself with puppets so it can pretend it isn't alone. A monster which has lost its context, and tries to make others suffer the same to soothe its bitterness.
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That seems more like Omatsuri himself, who was forced to be Lily's host-body so it could act more directly without immediately scaring off people.
Lily was constantly hungry and presented a happy face to the world in order to look friendly and inviting, and could sprout a form copying anything it ate.
 
Sydonai said:
That seems more like Omatsuri himself, who was forced to be Lily's host-body so it could act more directly without immediately scaring off people.
Lily was constantly hungry and presented a happy face to the world in order to look friendly and inviting, and could sprout a form copying anything it ate.
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🤷‍♀️

I might well be misremembering; I think I was talking more about what I recall of the gestalt motives/natures of Omatsuri and Lily as a 'team', blending the two together.
 
Alright, an analysis of Sorcery across the splats, in publishing order.

Solars:
Third Circle
I have said and will continue to say that when making a Solar, the question isn't should they learn Sorcery, it's is there a reason they shouldn't. Three out of your starting 28 Ability dots, and one out of your starting 15 Charms. Even if you buy no other Spells at chargen, you can buy them with Solar XP and grow as the game progresses. Their biggest weakness is a lack of supporting Charm space; Ancient Tongue Understanding gives (Essence/2, rounded down) autosuccesses on Occult rolls, Six Eternities' Travail adds a 10s roll additional dice on top of that, and Supernal Control Method is a 1/scene free full Excellency. Not bad, but lacking in flavor. Hit up a homebrew Charmset for some fun Charms.

Dragon-Blooded:
First Circle
Dragon-Blooded Sorcerers are definitely some thing you plan for. While Occult 3 remains a constant from the Solar version of Terrestrial Circle Sorcery, the four Occult Charms you need are new. While one of them can be the Occult Excellency, that's still 1/5 Excellencies and 3/15 starting Charms as prereqs. That said, they have some fun Charms. Five Winds Raimant costs anima and provides Defense and Hardness, Dragon-Sorcerer Puissance gives free sorcerous motes during casting, and World-Weaving Dragon Demiurge provides a suite of benefits when attempting an elemental sorcerous working.

Lunars:
Second Circle
Lunar Sorcerers are almost as easy as Solars. The prereqs are Intelligence 3 (because Attribute) and 4 Mental Attribute Charms. To list just the categories of Charms that qualify: Knowledge, Mysticism, Crafting, War, Senses, Territory, Animal Ken, Scrutiny, Navigation, Resolve, Cache, and Heart's Blood. I feel confident that most character archetypes will be able to scrape together 4 Charms among that that are worth taking. As for support Charms, they have a few interesting ones. Cloaked in Moonfire lets you take a turn off shaping when you're at glowing or higher, Shadow-Hands Invocation let's you flurry a shape sorcery action with a non-attack action, and Cosmos-Rending Fury lets you start casting a spell immmediately upon winning Join Battle, with a free full Excellency.

Exigents:
First/Second Circle (+)
Of the four written Exigents, all have Terrestrial Circle Sorcery. Sovereigns can learn a charm that allows them to cast individual Celestial Circle spells for Limit, and Architects can trade one of their Founational Attributes to learn Celestial Circle Sorcery. Of the Apocryphal Exalted, Heart-Eaters and Umbral Exalted can learn CCS. None of the sample Charms improve Sorcery. That said, the possiblity exists for a Chosen of a God of Sorcery to pack Solar Circle access and a boatload of booster Charms, so it's all relative.

Sidereals:
Second Circle.
Sidereals are Lunars, but a bit worse. The 4 prereq Charms are Secrets Charms, which cover Investigation, Larceny, Lore, Occult, and Stealth, plus the actual Secrets Charms. While there are some fun Charms along the way (Ascending Destiny Mien lets you calculate Resolve and Guile using a Secrets Ability, and Never Stop Moving is the reading/writing/paperwork counts as sleep Charm), it's ultimately more limiting on the character. That said, most of the Secrets Abilities have at least one 1/1 Charm, and these include very useful Charms like Efficient Secretary Technique and Systematic Understanding of Everything. As for Charm support, Cloaked in Mystery(/Enigma) is a slightly different Cloaked in Moonfire, and Cloaked in Mystery is Shadow-Hands Invocation. I wouldn't mind seeing a bit more Sorcery support for them in the Companion, but it seems the basis of their high-Essence power is intended to be Sidereal Martial Arts.
 
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Sometimes you don't want to play a sorcerer, no matter how mechanically optimal it is.

You can't solve every problem through applications of summon demon.

(that's what Tyrant Lizards are for)
 
VagueZ said:
This is genuinely important to me. An Exalt is superhuman, but an Exalt is still, ultimately, very human. The more any given take on the setting goes to "they're untouchable incarnate gods, no mortal can hold a candle to an Exalt", the less interested I am. Exalts are mighty, but a large mob of mortals is a dire threat to most Exalts. People matter. The world is old and deep enough that entrenched power structures known how to handle a single champion, no matter how mighty, who gets in their way.
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I've been thinking about your post and how it relates to a general undercurrent of Exalted as a whole and something is sticking with me. We're just talking about violence, aren't we?

When people say they want Exalts to be threatened by mortals, challenged by them, etc, they're often only saying that in the single venue of people killing each other. I've seen about a billion arguments as to whether or not it's reasonable for a Dawn Caste to fight an army single-handedly, but I've never seen an argument about if it's reasonable for a Twilight Caste to build a work of artifice that can't be matched by all the sages and engineers in a kingdom. In many avenues of skill Exalts are untouchable, and this is rarely cause for controversy or even particularly animated discussion. The Changing Moon thief outfoxes every watchman in a military outpost and departs having eaten their quartermaster with no one the wiser. The Earth Aspect strongwoman lifts a boulder so heavy that it'd break the arms of any mortal who tried. In all these ways Exalts are unmatched by mortals. But in combat, it seems like people think things ought to be different?

And like, they are different, in my experience. Combat is something of a great equalizer. The strength, power, value of characters both PC and NPC are oftentimes measured by their ability to kill and not be killed in combat. Which demon is more 'powerful': The Living Tower, or the Weaver of Voices? If combat is the metric then the answer is clear - Octavian crushes Berengiere (and most other second circle demons) with a big club. Thus, he is the Strongest in his circle. But some people disagree; they'll lovingly retell the story of how their team of five moderately combat optimized PCs clowned on the big man, and from there they'll argue that Second Circle Demons aren't powerful at all - true appropriate opposition lies in even higher echelons of foes.

It's all kind of silly to me, y'know? It's like... maybe there could be some version of Exalted out there where combat really is the great equalizer, and we don't have any one type of Exalt or even Caste of Exalt solely defined by the fact that they're better at the game (of tactical skirmish battle) than everybody else. Maybe there could be a version of Exalted where combat isn't the end-all-be-all, where fighting is just another subsystem afloat in a sea of conflict resolution subsystems. Would these things actually be better? I dunno - it's 8:30 on Christmas morning and I've been up up all night playing Kingdom Hearts 2. Not the best frame of mind to be writing long bad forum posts, probably, but I wanted to get my rambling thoughts out there somehow.
 
Personally? If you expect me to believe normal people beating down superhumans then you need to prove it. I'm not just talking about Exalted here. It's the same with superheroes. You don't get any benefit from Humanity Fuck Yeah! and you're up against people who are at minimum as smart as you. Are there tactics that you can use? Yes, but if you send in a team of grizzled mortal veterans and expect their aura of badassitude to win the day without any tactics then you get no mercy from me if a Dawn pulls them apart with all the effort of tearing up a leaf.
 
I think any gap or lack thereof between Exalt and Mortal should just come down to the vibes of the encounter - or in other words, does it make narrative sense?

ExEss did very well when it established the passive anima powers for the various castes and aspects, distilling that narrative factor. For instance, a Dawn Caste's anima passive is Supernal Warrior, which means (among other things) that you can incapacitate a certain number of trivial targets at will. And that's satisfying! You're the warrior chosen by creation's foremost war god; a battle-saint returned from ancient times; You should be able to take any common soldier, gang goon, or common animal and punt them halfway across a satrapy. This doesn't mean that the mortal can't oppose you; it just means they can't do so trivially - an army of mooks will take a long time to drown the dawn, but a skilled martial arts master with his crack team of warrior monks just might.

This works because the Dawn Caste that the game tries to sell you is made in the image of wrathful army-slaughtering Achilles, or Shamgar killing 600 philistine invaders with an Ox Goad, or Gilgamesh and Enkidu wrestling down the Bull of Heaven. So if you let a Dawn Caste hero get killed by Bob the Legionnaire and his buddies, it should feel earned and not like the Dawn isn't performing as promised.

Every Caste/Aspect has that kind of narrative archetype baked into it - "No normal person can see the No Moon unless they want to be seen!" "The chosen of endings knows your deepest fears!" "The Jade caste are so charismatic that they make friends anywhere they go!" That doesn't mean mortals can't oppose them, but if a mortal wants to beat them at their own game, they have to earn it.

Of course, there's also the fact that no Exalt will be good at everything - even a merely good mortal sailor will be a better admiral than the Dusk caste who never even saw a boat.
 
The Cradle series of books has something that translates pretty well to what it'd take to kill a Dawn in the death of the Sage of the Endless Sword. He was heavily exhausted to begin with afrer repeatedly delving an ancient ruin (not that his killers knew this however they also seriously underestimated his strength to begin with,) they poisoned his drink, stabbed him in his sleep, still took a lot of injuries and might not have killed him at all if it wasn't for the fact that he was concerned for the safety of his apprentice.
 
GhanjRho said:
Alright, an analysis of Sorcery across the splats, in publishing order.

Solars:
Third Circle
I have said and will continue to say that when making a Solar, the question isn't should they learn Sorcery, it's is there a reason they shouldn't. Three out of your starting 28 Ability dots, and one out of your starting 15 Charms. Even if you buy no other Spells at chargen, you can buy them with Solar XP and grow as the game progresses. Their biggest weakness is a lack of supporting Charm space; Ancient Tongue Understanding gives (Essence) autosuccesses on Occult rolls, Six Eternities' Travail adds a 10s roll additional dice on top of that, and Supernal Control Method is a 1/scene free full Excellency. Not bad, but lacking in flavor. Hit up a homebrew Charmset for some fun Charms.
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Sorcery is cool and all, but like, summoning demons actually does invite issues into your game, unless the GM is softballing you. They also have limited capacity to actually influence anything, depending on what the game is doing, unless you actually do invest further. One demon per night of no sleep, in a ritual that costs a WP, each one is a potential problem to manage. It's also a huge backstory investment, you gotta warp your whole concept to bring in Sorcery and what it means to you and so on and so forth.

It's mechanically simple but with huge fluff commitment because they want it to matter, but not to be hard to fit in to your build.

Kymme said:
I've been thinking about your post and how it relates to a general undercurrent of Exalted as a whole and something is sticking with me. We're just talking about violence, aren't we?

When people say they want Exalts to be threatened by mortals, challenged by them, etc, they're often only saying that in the single venue of people killing each other. I've seen about a billion arguments as to whether or not it's reasonable for a Dawn Caste to fight an army single-handedly, but I've never seen an argument about if it's reasonable for a Twilight Caste to build a work of artifice that can't be matched by all the sages and engineers in a kingdom. In many avenues of skill Exalts are untouchable, and this is rarely cause for controversy or even particularly animated discussion. The Changing Moon thief outfoxes every watchman in a military outpost and departs having eaten their quartermaster with no one the wiser. The Earth Aspect strongwoman lifts a boulder so heavy that it'd break the arms of any mortal who tried. In all these ways Exalts are unmatched by mortals. But in combat, it seems like people think things ought to be different?

And like, they are different, in my experience. Combat is something of a great equalizer. The strength, power, value of characters both PC and NPC are oftentimes measured by their ability to kill and not be killed in combat. Which demon is more 'powerful': The Living Tower, or the Weaver of Voices? If combat is the metric then the answer is clear - Octavian crushes Berengiere (and most other second circle demons) with a big club. Thus, he is the Strongest in his circle. But some people disagree; they'll lovingly retell the story of how their team of five moderately combat optimized PCs clowned on the big man, and from there they'll argue that Second Circle Demons aren't powerful at all - true appropriate opposition lies in even higher echelons of foes.

It's all kind of silly to me, y'know? It's like... maybe there could be some version of Exalted out there where combat really is the great equalizer, and we don't have any one type of Exalt or even Caste of Exalt solely defined by the fact that they're better at the game (of tactical skirmish battle) than everybody else. Maybe there could be a version of Exalted where combat isn't the end-all-be-all, where fighting is just another subsystem afloat in a sea of conflict resolution subsystems. Would these things actually be better? I dunno - it's 8:30 on Christmas morning and I've been up up all night playing Kingdom Hearts 2. Not the best frame of mind to be writing long bad forum posts, probably, but I wanted to get my rambling thoughts out there somehow.
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I'll note that there's no Second Circle who can take five combat-specced Exalts, even Dragon-Blooded. They're pound for pound about as strong as a seriousface Solar in the one thing they do, maybe a bit weaker, depends on the Second Circle, but Solars have always been way stronger than Second Circles once they get going, at least in their areas of focus, and five seriousface DBs, especially Immaculate Martial Artists, can kill more or less anything they want that hasn't been designed with the DB Charmset and IMAs in mind to go "You need Celestial Charms to be involved for this."
 
Kymme said:
I've been thinking about your post and how it relates to a general undercurrent of Exalted as a whole and something is sticking with me. We're just talking about violence, aren't we?

When people say they want Exalts to be threatened by mortals, challenged by them, etc, they're often only saying that in the single venue of people killing each other. I've seen about a billion arguments as to whether or not it's reasonable for a Dawn Caste to fight an army single-handedly, but I've never seen an argument about if it's reasonable for a Twilight Caste to build a work of artifice that can't be matched by all the sages and engineers in a kingdom. In many avenues of skill Exalts are untouchable, and this is rarely cause for controversy or even particularly animated discussion. The Changing Moon thief outfoxes every watchman in a military outpost and departs having eaten their quartermaster with no one the wiser. The Earth Aspect strongwoman lifts a boulder so heavy that it'd break the arms of any mortal who tried. In all these ways Exalts are unmatched by mortals. But in combat, it seems like people think things ought to be different?

And like, they are different, in my experience. Combat is something of a great equalizer. The strength, power, value of characters both PC and NPC are oftentimes measured by their ability to kill and not be killed in combat. Which demon is more 'powerful': The Living Tower, or the Weaver of Voices? If combat is the metric then the answer is clear - Octavian crushes Berengiere (and most other second circle demons) with a big club. Thus, he is the Strongest in his circle. But some people disagree; they'll lovingly retell the story of how their team of five moderately combat optimized PCs clowned on the big man, and from there they'll argue that Second Circle Demons aren't powerful at all - true appropriate opposition lies in even higher echelons of foes.

It's all kind of silly to me, y'know? It's like... maybe there could be some version of Exalted out there where combat really is the great equalizer, and we don't have any one type of Exalt or even Caste of Exalt solely defined by the fact that they're better at the game (of tactical skirmish battle) than everybody else. Maybe there could be a version of Exalted where combat isn't the end-all-be-all, where fighting is just another subsystem afloat in a sea of conflict resolution subsystems. Would these things actually be better? I dunno - it's 8:30 on Christmas morning and I've been up up all night playing Kingdom Hearts 2. Not the best frame of mind to be writing long bad forum posts, probably, but I wanted to get my rambling thoughts out there somehow.
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So there are a lot of contributing factors to this impression, and over the years I've made a few stabs at discussing it.

The biggest, 0th level consideration here, is the idea that there is a combat system. A verbose, granular one with clear stakes, states and progression. So immediately, we can start composing 'versus' discussions and hypotheticals.

Compare this to the far more nebulous stealth or travel mechanics, or really any of the other 'classic' exalted niches.

At the end of the day, a lot of people who come into Exalted are hoping for or expecting a tight, coherent game experience. They see the relative bigness of the combat engine and by its size and granularity, intuit that it is Engaging, if not balanced.

But this comes back to the operational or thematic question of- is Exalted sold on the combat game? At a glance, yes it is, absolutely. Its sold on playing out the flavor-of-the-month shonen action scenes, at least among its fans if not the developers. (Remember 1st edition was a lot more grounded in its influences, and existed before the Big 3 shonen jump anime).

The other contributing factor is that Exalted as a premise is inherently hostile to a lot of western cultural conceptions of exceptionalism and the like. You either win the power lottery, or you suck forever. And deep down, no one wants to imagine a world where they don't matter.

So you get folks who latch onto the underdogs, be they mortals, DBs, Lunars or Sidereals. And you make them rally against the biggest manifestation of that inherent unfairness (the Solars), and then it butts up against the reasonable expectation that playing X should be fun and viable, because we're trained as game players that there's no wrong way to play.
 
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