General Exalted Thread

[JayTee]

You don't, because literally eating a firearm isn't a "human hero" power.

On the other hand, a simple Excellency boosted Dex + Firearms roll should be enough to disassemble it on the spot and hand it back in pieces.

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In fairness, shouting loud enough to shatter bones isn't a "human hero" power either, but it's cited frequently in descriptions of Solar ability, so I don't think making your teeth hard enough to break metal and a digestive system tough enough to handle the material is too out of line either.

 

[Cosar]

Alternatively Strength plus Athletics is the standard feat of strength to break an object, though that's more crushing/snapping it in your hands for solars.

 

[Azrael]

'Bending the gun barrel back' is a classic.

 

[JayTee]

Alternatively Strength plus Athletics is the standard feat of strength to break an object, though that's more crushing/snapping it in your hands for solars.

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I was waffling between this or First of Iron (bite attack, technically unarmed) and Immunity to Everything Technique to ignore the impact of, you know, literally eating a gun.

'Bending the gun barrel back' is a classic.

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Oh I know, I'm just attached to this specific image and want to see if it's possible before going to the classic.

 

[grommile]

I was waffling between this or First of Iron (bite attack, technically unarmed) and Immunity to Everything Technique to ignore the impact of, you know, literally eating a gun.

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Ignoring the impact of eating a gun, rather like drinking a bowl of mercury, is best captured by Iron Kettle Body, not Immunity to Everything Technique, because the majority of what you need to resist is mechanical injury, not poisoning.

 

[JayTee]

Ignoring the impact of eating a gun, rather like drinking a bowl of mercury, is best captured by Iron Kettle Body, not Immunity to Everything Technique, because the majority of what you need to resist is mechanical injury, not poisoning.

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Huh, I didn't know that, neat. I don't think my GM will see it that way, but if it means some XP saved I'm down with this. Thanks!

 

[Exthalion]

Anyone know what combination of (2e Solar) Charms could be used to justify eating a gun? Like, actually taking a physical firearm and consuming it?

I may or may not have kicked a tank out of my way because it cut me off in traffic and now the local equivalent of the gestapo is trying and failing to intimidate me and I want to emphasize how utterly unimpressed I am.

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Either of Science of Mutation or Primordial Principle Emulation. The first to give you appropriate mutations, the second to give you... I want to say Malfeas... the appropriate primordial charm to do it.

You may also want some Invincible Essence Reinforcement to raise your passive soak high enough to not have your teeth break and your guts get torn up by sharp metal.

 

[BossFight]

The Broken Fire

Long ago there was an age of cold and ruthless glory, where giants walked the earth that were beasts and worlds. Then the gods breathed fire into the souls of men, and lords rose among them; they led men into battle, conquered Heaven and built Hell. So that such a battle may never be forgotten, the lords chose to fashion a memorial; it would be a great everlasting fire, as a symbol of the fire of Exaltation with which they had been gifted. To house the fire they built a tower of silver and gold, and around the tower rose a city.

An age passed, and the world fell. The city crumbled, the tower decayed, and still the fire remained; pilgrims from all over the world came to inhabit the ruins and built a new city out of them, and they worshipped the fire. Princes warred over the rights to make obedience to the fire and earn its kiss; kingdoms were formed bound by an intricate lattice of rules surrounding their relationship to the flame.

An age passed, and the world fell. The city was overgrown, the tower crumbled, and still the fire remained. Disease swept through the streets, leaving them empty but for the hollow shells of the dead, moaning in the madness of death. Pilgrims came, and were devoured. Only a bare handful reached the fire, and gazed into it, and partook of it; and when they came out they were wiser and prouder, and the fire within was only embers.

Still the embers burn. The fire was scattered, but as long as it burns within one soul, it is not extinguished. A world away, its power is still felt.


Shaping Ritual: Flame of the Prime Kiln

You hold a spark of the Primal Fire, an everlasting fire of sorcery fashioned by the Exalted in an age long past. This flame is embedded in your soul, bound into your very being; it appears in the palm of your hand whenever you will it, allowing you to work your sorcery through it. The power of this flame is eternal; you may pass it onto another, losing it in the process - but if you die with it it will sit within the shell of your body, awaiting a mind that can see and claim it for itself.

Shaping Rituals

The flame is a bonfire of the soul, all passions and memories serving at its kindling. By drawing upon its power, the sorcerer consumes his sense of self until he blurs into the line of all those who have held the flame before. Once per scene, she may 'burn' one her Major or Defining Intimacies that is directly applicable to her current situation; the Intimacy is suppressed until she next awakens from a full night's rest, and she gains a number of sorcerous motes equal to the Intimacy's rating which last for the rest of the scene. Additionally, once per story, the sorcerer may draw a Defining Intimacy from the flame held by one of its prior holders; the Storyteller chooses that Intimacy and the character's behavior should reflect that attachment. In exchange, the user gains 5 sorcerous motes which, like the Intimacy, last for the rest of the day.

The primal fire consumes the flesh and reweaves into a more fitting vessel. Living bodies instinctively resist this intrusion, and sorcerers often feel the ache of burns and ulcers; but it is possible to give in to that warping power. Once per scene, the sorcerer may suffer up to (Essence) aggravated lethal damage, gaining a number of sorcerous motes equal to (1 + number of health levels lost + highest wound penalty inflicted). These motes last for the day (or until the wounds are healed, whichever comes sooner). Once per story, the sorcerer may accept a cosmetic mutation inflicted by the flame, whether it be a hand with charcoal-like skin or eyes that glow with fire or similar effects; depending on how visible, off-putting and dramatic the mutation is, it should be defined as Minor, Major or Defining, and the sorcerer accordingly receives 4, 6 or 8 sorcerous motes which last for the rest of the story.

When the sorcerer takes the first shape sorcery action to begin casting a spell and stunts it with a description of how she casts the spell through the flame or draws on its power, she gains (stunt rating + 2) sorcerous motes towards completing this spell. This benefit can only be received once per scene. Stunts to enhance the sorcerer's control spell do not count against the once per scene limit.

Special rules: It is possible for a sorcerer to slay another holder of the flame, absorbing their spark within their own to add to their power. In doing so, the sorcerer accepts a Major or Defining Intimacy held by their victim (at the victim's player's discretion), and gains another shaping ritual. Accordingly, more shaping rituals than the three above may be designed for sorcerers of sufficient power.


Other Benefits

Crucible of Flesh (Merit ● to ●●●●●): The sorcerer has extensively studied the twisting and weaving power of the prime flame, and learned to use it to burn flesh and cast it anew. She adds her rating in that Merit to the extended roll of any Sorcerous Working that aims at mutating a living being (including herself) or at giving them new powers, provided the changes follow the following themes or aesthetics: great size, extremes of beautiful or terrifying appearance, fire, magma, volcanic glass, smoke, ash.

The Burning Grasp (Merit ●●): Conjuring the flame from her palm, the sorcerer may wield it as a weapon, stoking, expanding and directing it, conjuring orbs and lances of fire to consume her opponents. This Merit is identical to The Burning Name (Exalted, p. 468), save in its aesthetics.

Suzerain of Endless Flame (Merit ●●): This Merit is identical to the Merit of the same name found on p. 468 of Exalted.

First Sin of Fire (Merit ●●●●●, Story): This Merit may only be taken at character creation (or acquired in-story, at which point it has no cost); it represents a character who has already slain another holder of the flame. The player and storyteller should come up with an appropriate Major or Defining Intimacy inherited from them, and the player may choose a second shaping ritual appropriate to his prime fire.


Those Who Hold Fire In Their Palm

That Which Roars

Once, That Which Roars was mortal, a man weak of body but strong of mind and well-learned, who dodged the dangers of the city and claimed a piece of the fire for himself. He ruled in the depths of the East in a city of charred wood, a lord of fire and lightning. All who told him that a mere mortal could not handle such power were wrong - his downfall was not due to his inherent frailty, but only to his hubris. Weaving fire into his flesh over and over, the king lost sight of who he had been, and was lost to a fire of his own making.

That Which Roars is ancient knowledge of sorcery contained within a chaos of emotions and shattered memories that has taken the form of fire and black glass in a shifting shape, often taking on leonine and avian features. It sits in the scorched remains of its throne room, at the heart of its temple-palace, now empty of men as is the city around it. It summons and binds elementals, but as loyal as they are they do not understand its will; it sends blazing cherubs with wings that trail ashes to speak to travellers and faraway lords, but their messages are cryptic and nonsensical when they are not mere cacophonies of sound without a single word in them; it haunts the dreams of those who sleep within what was once its kingdom, but the dreams it fashions have no comprehensible meaning.

That Which Roars sits in its throne and weeps molten lead; it roams the empty streets of its ruined city and sings to itself; some trespassers it hunts down and consumes with wrathful glee, others it blesses with the secret riches still stored away in its realm. It is wild and unpredictable as fire itself, and many are the would-be scavengers who would wish to see its flame quenched, so that they may crack the city open like an egg full of treasure.

Twig

Twig has once a grand name, for she was a Prince of the Earth, an Outcaste queen in the Threshold. But now the fire has passed through her, it has burned her, and she has given up her worldly pursuits for the contemplation of the flame. She is Twig, and she seeks to burn as bright as she can; so she wanders the north, seeking heat in the embrace of cold. She parlays with fire elementals, visits and studies fire demesnes, and occasionally confronts those who own precious red jade artifacts; all in a quest to gain true, final understanding of fire.

Twig was burnt in many ways, for good and ill. Her face remains unmarred, that of an aging aristocrat, tan of skin and her hair a deep dark-green; an Aspect of Wood, she once felt like fresh humus and upturned soil, but now she feels like precious woods in the hearthfire. Her hands and arms have the look and texture of bark, but the closer to her hands the more scorched-black they are, and her hands are still aglow with bright embers; she is over seven feet tall, and her heart glows like a furnace in her chest - which does not make it any easier to hit in battle, as her ribs are an intricate cage of petrified ash.

Legends are told in the North of the Burning Lady, and she is often mistaken for an elemental or a goddess of some sort, which she does little to clear up; she is friendly and amenable as long as one does not stand in the way of her study, and utterly ruthless when one does. It is her hope that by stoking her sorcerous flame to great enough heights, she can achieve immortality - then she will retrace her steps back to the Prime Kiln, and conquer the last of the embers to become the ruler of this city, which she will reforged with fire.

Should-Heavens-Fall

Should-Heavens-Fall's name is too ironic to be a coincidence; indeed he has taken it upon himself as a symbol of his coming-of-age when he stepped out of the Prime Kiln. This was centuries ago, for Fall is a Celestial Exalted, member of the Sidereal host. To his peers he is an abrasive, reclusive sage, a sorcerer of great skill and an influential negotiator in the spirit courts of the South. His many idiosyncrasies are forgotten in the name of 'as long as it works' - and the man has secured many places of secondary importance in the South of Creation that have effectively become his own private keepings, to which Heaven is blind.

Should-Heavens-Fall is an effective defender of Creation, but he is more than this. He is a man obsessed, consumed by flame. He bears no marks of his twisting on his body, for it is his soul that is branded. Fall believes that no job is done better than the one you do yourself, and so to be able to do the most, to be the most effective, to fulfill his duties, he needs power - which he claims by using the resources of Heaven to locate holders of the prime flame. Then, alone - for he does not trust the sensitive knowledge of his pursuits to the corruption of Heaven - he confronts these kindred sorcerers, and either extorts their fire from them or kills them and takes it himself.

Although Fall is known for the refinement and perfection of his many cover identities as Aspects of Fire, there is more than skill involved - there is need. Fire has so wholly taken his soul that he feels more affinity with it than with his birthright as a Sidereal. The fates he weaves are marked by cinder, consigning doomed cities to great fires and raising mortals to glory with crowns of garnet and ruby; he is as peerless a master of Fire Dragon as any Immaculate, perhaps even more; his twin short daiklaves, Rise and Fall, are of mixed red jade and starmetal and hold the power to burn conceptual things - memories, emotional ties, even skills and curses; but always they live a trail of ash behind them.

The Ash-Queen

There was once a mortal woman who held the power of the flame; and like few before she gave it up freely, to a worthy student, hoping to retire in peace. But she had woven herself too tightly to its power, and when it left her it hollowed her out, carving a hole where her heart once was; she was consumed by want, until she died - and rose again. Her wrathful shade lashed against a world that had loved her, seeking warmth, seeking power, and finding none. Trying to reignite the cold cinder of her heart, she sucked the flame from the garda birds who had once been her faithful servants - and doomed them to her own fate.

The Ash-Queen is a dead and charred body, a skeleton black with the remnants of scorched flesh pulled taut over her eyeless skull. Even so, her voice has all the warmth and softness it had in life - only her laughter is eerie, sounding like wind through leafless branches. She wraps her mutilated flesh into great coats of thick fur and necklaces of teeth and fangs, as well as hundreds of talismans worn on many strings. She is surrounded by her entourage of fallen garda; these once-beautiful birds of fire are now clouds of blackest ash twisting as they try to contort themselves into the shape of a bird and always fall short - their touch drains warmth from the living and lights embers in their heart, but never enough to spark them back to life.

The Ash-Queen is a prince in the Underworld; she wields echoes of the sorcery she once knew, now cast as shadow and ash, and she feeds on the souls of the weaker dead to sustain her ever-hungry essence. But the nature of her life-smothering powers and her craving for figurative and literal fire lead her to the world of the living, and so she obsesses over controlling shadowlands to allow her passage back and forth. Having existed for long, she no longer hopes to one day find a remedy for her eternal wound; she feeds on warmth and life for the same reason any living thing feeds, because it sates the hunger for a time and brings her pleasure. To her own mind, she has petty lords of Creation as her vassals, paying her tribute in strong slaves and first-born children; in the view of Creation she is a forsaken monster haunting the night and appeased with human sacrifices. In a way, both are true. She is not an unkind mistress, and those sacrifices she deems worthy are risen as might ash-wraiths, living voids whose power is proportionate to the life they lost.

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Surprised this isnt threadmarked, it's very good

 

[GardenerBriareus]

I may or may not have kicked a tank out of my way because it cut me off in traffic and now the local equivalent of the gestapo is trying and failing to intimidate me and I want to emphasize how utterly unimpressed I am.

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Roll Intelligence+Firearms (or possibly Intelligence+Occult, or Intelligence+Craft) to toss the gun in the air and then poke it in just the right place so that it flies apart into its individual components. Then look meaningfully at the pile of gun-bits, look at them, and say "Would you like to see how that looks when I use a human body instead?"

EDIT: Sure, you're full of shit, but they don't know that.

 

[EarthScorpion]

@rogthnor for Wisdom of the Spheres you need to tighten up the wording to make it clear that other characters can benefit from the reduced training times. Also, I think this should follow Sanity-Shattering instruction, and maybe only affect people targeted by that charm. As it stands it's both much better than it and two essence lower than it.

Bachial Oracle feels like it should be Cecelyne/Oramus heresy since she's more focused on working with large groups of people. Most of Oramus charms that involve large groups of people require them to be mad or drives them mad as part of the cost. I think it might work as a charm that turns Mad groups of people into perfect workcrews that carry out dream carried instructions to build/maintain things. I'm thinking of Glory in Buffy the Vampire Slayer getting all the crazy people in town to build her a tower.

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Yeah, you've basically cut to the core of the thing here.

Oramus doesn't make Yharnam by enlightening the whole city. You corrupt the elite, lure them into your strange ways, and they become the Healing Church, hiding the dark origins of their powers.

I deliberately built Oramus to be not-great at constructive large scale organisational things. He is intentionally opposed in his Zenithoid focus to Cecelyne, who is mass-scale, organised religion. Oramus as I wrote him is mystery cults, minority sects, and things that are outsiders. The Oramus tools for mass-scale social things are built to be corrosive - hence why a lot of them are Revelation-keyworded or inflict Nosognosia as part of their cost. Because the way you take over a city as Oramus without burning it down is to teach the elite wicked secrets of the demon realm and bring them into a mystery cult where they have a sick fascination with the horrors you show them. And the normal ways of the city carry on, except now the lords of the city are cultists of profane things.

Hence, as you say, both of these Charms are trying to make Oramus do things I didn't build him to do; mass-scale training and mass coordination.

 

[GardenerBriareus]

Hence, as you say, both of these Charms are trying to make Oramus do things I didn't build him to do; mass-scale training and mass coordination.

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I could see a possible mass-scale "training" effect which hinges on infecting the "students" with Nosognosia, leaving the process of convincing them to then do your bidding up to you. The actual output is less a corp of well-trained clerks than a mob of lunatics granted an unnatural insight into a specific Ability (and plenty of narrative justification for taking ranks in madness-themed Styles in the future), unpredictably obeying their own phobias and neuroses in the course of appeasing the unknowable thing which hounds their dreams.

Effectively, it's an upgrade to the Charms for inflicting mass insanity that happen to provide a Training effect in the process of causing mass insanity, without doing anything to make the victims more compliant with the Infernal's wishes - which could also be used to just spread utter chaos by gifting madmen with sudden genius and then leaving them to use it for whatever cause their broken minds choose to turn it to.

 

[EarthScorpion]

I could see a possible mass-scale "training" effect which hinges on infecting the "students" with Nosognosia, leaving the process of convincing them to then do your bidding up to you. The actual output is less a corp of well-trained clerks than a mob of lunatics granted an unnatural insight into a specific Ability (and plenty of narrative justification for taking ranks in madness-themed Styles in the future), unpredictably obeying their own phobias and neuroses in the course of appeasing the unknowable thing which hounds their dreams.

Effectively, it's an upgrade to the Charms for inflicting mass insanity that happen to provide a Training effect in the process of causing mass insanity, without doing anything to make the victims more compliant with the Infernal's wishes - which could also be used to just spread utter chaos by gifting madmen with sudden genius and then leaving them to use it for whatever cause their broken minds choose to turn it to.

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Yes, but, like... at that point, just write a charm for buffing your Mass Combat units or something that "curses" a mass social unit so the next social attack it experiences is unblockable and undodgeable or something that enhances the social breakdown you've caused without just falling to "give them stat boosts". By this point, you're twisting "Training" so far away from what it's intended to be that it's arguably not really a constructive keyword - especially since I already gave Oramus a Training charm which tells you "No, the way you're meant to train your minions is make them a creepy mystery cult that listens to the mouths on their brains that tell them how to reach enlightenment".

This is something I usually tell Solar Charm writers, but it's even more applicable to Infernals; your powers won't always give you the path you want to get things done. As I wrote him, Oramus is not someone who provides people with easy Training. That's why his training Charm isn't something nice and easy like the Solar one - it's something you can use as a curse against your enemies (and is often better suited for that use). And so that's why a Charm that's just "here have Training for listening to my music" isn't something he should have - not least because that beats the Solar training charms as cheaper and less dedicated.

 

[boo600]

For the "eat a gun" bit, I was going to suggest Larceny (swallowing swords). You can already bite through the metal (Solar), so it's a matter of dealing with the poisoning...

Actually, why would you even need a power for that? Just eat the dam gun.

Also, Infernal questions! I can't find a proper "environmental defense" for Infernals. Transcendent Desert Creature works on places of Desolation, but there's nothing for finding food where it is impossible to do so (meh, that a Solar's shtick), or relaxing in a volcano (NOW I'm interested).

Did I miss one, or...?

Also- ES, thanks for the Nyarlahotep-in-Exalted tree. Fun Shall Be Had.

 

[Azrael]

Also, Infernal questions! I can't find a proper "environmental defense" for Infernals. Transcendent Desert Creature works on places of Desolation, but there's nothing for finding food where it is impossible to do so (meh, that a Solar's shtick), or relaxing in a volcano (NOW I'm interested).

Did I miss one, or...?

Also- ES, thanks for the Nyarlahotep-in-Exalted tree. Fun Shall Be Had.

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If you're using homebrew ES wrote one for Malfeas (search up the Book of Ten Thousand Scorpions), otherwise...

The Adorjan charm that makes it so you can't get hurt by things you run on/through, the Kimbery charms that help with liquids, Transcendant Desert Creature, Revlid's Metagaos has stuff for plants...

That's all that comes to mind.

 

[BossFight]

Yeah, you've basically cut to the core of the thing here.

Oramus doesn't make Yharnam by enlightening the whole city. You corrupt the elite, lure them into your strange ways, and they become the Healing Church, hiding the dark origins of their powers.

I deliberately built Oramus to be not-great at constructive large scale organisational things. He is intentionally opposed in his Zenithoid focus to Cecelyne, who is mass-scale, organised religion. Oramus as I wrote him is mystery cults, minority sects, and things that are outsiders. The Oramus tools for mass-scale social things are built to be corrosive - hence why a lot of them are Revelation-keyworded or inflict Nosognosia as part of their cost. Because the way you take over a city as Oramus without burning it down is to teach the elite wicked secrets of the demon realm and bring them into a mystery cult where they have a sick fascination with the horrors you show them. And the normal ways of the city carry on, except now the lords of the city are cultists of profane things.

Hence, as you say, both of these Charms are trying to make Oramus do things I didn't build him to do; mass-scale training and mass coordination.

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So there are a few things I want to break down on this

The first is yeah, I agree that mass social charms goes against what you tried to design for the Oramus charmset, but like, if you hadn't explicitly gone out and said that Oramus' Social Charms were meant to be about individuals instead of societies, I never would have known. Like, as written, unless I am missing or badly misinterpreting something which is always a possibility, Oramus doesn't have a lot of charms focused on controlling individuals?

Like his big social charms are:

Spoiler

A charm which social attacks everyone in (integrity X 100 yards) when they sleep
An expansion which makes this happen every night and which grows as more mad people inhabit the area
A charm which lets you use performance instead of appearance (pushing you towards targeting groups instead of individuals since your performance will almost certainly be higher than you presence)
A charm to feed multiple people but which drives them mad
A charm which lets you inflict madness on those you talk to (individuals or groups)
A social doubler
A training charm which targets (Infernals Essence) magnitude
A charm which lets you turn an individual into a demon, but which is free if they were part of the group you just instructed (so there is no reason to limit this to a single person)
A charm to give a secret order someone has to follow (single use only, target must be mad)
A performance based charm which instils a belief in any mad character who hears (can affect multiple people if you prime them first, which isn't that hard with your high performance)
A charm which inflicts a taboo onto a whole society

I mean, I might have missed a few when I skimmed through the doc real quick, but as far as I can tell most of these are better suited for use against a group than an individual. Targeting only one person with them seems sub-optimal. In fact, there are more which explicitly target mass groups than there are that target individuals.

As part of this, there just aren't enough charms in the tree to empower individuals so that you can take over the nobility of a city and still achieve things on a larger scale. Like, as I understand it, the way Oramus is supposed to rule the city is you corrupt the greatest of the city, teaching them strange arts and sciences, elevating them even as you drive them mad and then have them lead the city in your stead. Except all the training charms they have are slightly worse versions of solar training charms. If you choose to create a small elite group to lead the city then you aren't fighting quantity with quality, you are just making less of the same quality.

Like, I won't say my Bachanial muse is a perfect charm, but like at least it pays for its single target use and debilitating madness by giving its target greater capabilities than other charms can grant (though its honestly probably too strong).


I also don't really agree with the base assumption that Cecelyne is explicitly the "mass social" tree. Like yes, she has more mass social than normal social, but her Verdantr Empress Endowment tree is one of the most broken social trees in the game.

But yeah, these charms I wrote do go against the Oramus focus on small scale social stuff

 

[EarthScorpion]

The first is yeah, I agree that mass social charms goes against what you tried to design for the Oramus charmset, but like, if you hadn't explicitly gone out and said that Oramus' Social Charms were meant to be about individuals instead of societies, I never would have known. Like, as written, unless I am missing or badly misinterpreting something which is always a possibility, Oramus doesn't have a lot of charms focused on controlling individuals?

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The thing you're missing, because you houserule away the Nosognosia mechanics, is how destructive to "the normal functioning of society" the most potent Oramus wide-area social charms are. Because the easiest, fastest, best way you have to get lots of people valid for the Revelation keyword is to use your dirt cheap "oh yeah your music is a vector for Nosognosia" effect.

The reason you, as an Infernal with Oramus charms who is not Oramus, work via mystery cults is that that's the way to exercise the maximum impact while doing the least damage to the society you want to control. If you don't care about that, then yes, you can just go full Nyarlathotep on a city and lead them off like the Piped Piper, as a giant rabble obsessed and yet terrified by the knowledge you offer them.

What I was aiming for was a gameplay loop built into Oramus, much as I built the heartsap loop into Szoreny (which, yes, is the refined version). Szoreny is built so the best way to play him is to find a rival, accumulate heartsap as you spitefully work to destroy them, and when you defeat them once and for all you lose all your heartsap and so you basically got free power, no consequences. Meanwhile, the Oramus gameplay loop is built more around "Okay, how much can I use my powerful Revelation effects on this society before Nosognosia gets out of control and we have a public outburst of mass hysteria which will do damage before it burns itself out?"

And so the reason you work with select cults and mystery groups as Oramus is that it serves as quarantine - it maximises your power, and through working with only a few targets, you don't need to use Nosognosia (which is a sledgehammer); you can use the scalpel of "Intimacies of Fearful Fascination" which are much harder to generate, but allow much more stable cults.

 

[boo600]

Wow, I'm remembering so many questions! Pavlovian training from the awesome people working to bring answers. I LIKE this thread.


Souls are weird. Not because they have multiple parts, but because you can't make them with Wyld-Shaping Technique. Or maybe you can- just not at the same time as a person. Or it's a specific charm? Does that ever show up?

Probably just a separate use of WST. The Primordials just wanted a food source, and sapience wasn't a problem for them... so they made a food source that only works when plugged into a living thing you make separately. I guess if the point of humans is a shell/puppet for a soul (to house it/regulate the release of Essence via prayer)... anyway.

Has anyone seen/made a soul-making charm? Infernals need real people to populate the worlds they make, guys! Otherwise, when Creation falls into Oblivion, who will sustain Messianic Charms?

 

[BossFight]

The thing you're missing, because you houserule away the Nosognosia mechanics, is how destructive to "the normal functioning of society" the most potent Oramus wide-area social charms are. Because the easiest, fastest, best way you have to get lots of people valid for the Revelation keyword is to use your dirt cheap "oh yeah your music is a vector for Nosognosia" effect.

The reason you, as an Infernal with Oramus charms who is not Oramus, work via mystery cults is that that's the way to exercise the maximum impact while doing the least damage to the society you want to control. If you don't care about that, then yes, you can just go full Nyarlathotep on a city and lead them off like the Piped Piper, as a giant rabble obsessed and yet terrified by the knowledge you offer them.

What I was aiming for was a gameplay loop built into Oramus, much as I built the heartsap loop into Szoreny (which, yes, is the refined version). Szoreny is built so the best way to play him is to find a rival, accumulate heartsap as you spitefully work to destroy them, and when you defeat them once and for all you lose all your heartsap and so you basically got free power, no consequences. Meanwhile, the Oramus gameplay loop is built more around "Okay, how much can I use my powerful Revelation effects on this society before Nosognosia gets out of control and we have a public outburst of mass hysteria which will do damage before it burns itself out?"

And so the reason you work with select cults and mystery groups as Oramus is that it serves as quarantine - it maximises your power, and through working with only a few targets, you don't need to use Nosognosia (which is a sledgehammer); you can use the scalpel of "Intimacies of Fearful Fascination" which are much harder to generate, but allow much more stable cults.

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So a couple of things:

First:

Spoiler

"
The transcendental music of Oramus was never meant for lesser beings. Thus it brings madness to minds too small to understand the ineffable. The warlock becomes a carrier for Cosmic Insight. Most of the time this lies latent within him, and he is not contagious and does not display symptoms.


If the character chooses to share this knowledge, his social attacks become a vector for Nosgnosia, that feared disease of the mind. If this social attack involves making music, the social attack becomes unnatural mental influence. Observers with Occult or Performance 2+ can recognise the uncanny hellish notes with a reflexive (Wits + [Occult or Performance]) roll at Difficulty 5."

I read this as you can hit anyone you want with Nosgnosia and also your music is UMI. It sounds like I was supposed to read this as "your music is UMI if you spread Nognosia"


Second, it doesn't really answer my issues of "Limiting Oramus to a few people just makes him like a worse version of other social stuff" and "Cececylne is just as much personal social as mass social"

Third, if you can get "fearful fascination" in your cult, why not do that with everybody? Like, I added the ability to inflict other derangements than Nognosia because it's so easy to fulfill the madness criteria that I just never used it. A simple "Fear me" via Crowned with Fury is enough to get "under the effect of emotions generated by UMI" madness clause, and I'm sure there are other ways.

EDIT:

Also a new charm, this one building off my previous "give yourself derangements for extra craft successes" charm, and is not in anyway based off of mass social stuff
It is probably overpowered but I couldn't think of another way to enhace the quality of a craft roll.

Spoiler

Hallucinations Made Real
Cost: 1 AHL; Mins: Essence 3; Type: Simple

Keywords: Combo-ok

Duration: instant

Prerequisites: Bachanial Muse

It is the nature of Oramus to succeed, for every failed effort in the waking world exists as an impossible success in the Beyond.

This charm acts as an upgrade to Madman's Artistry. When the Infernal fails a craft roll enhanced by that charm, they may take one aggravated health level of damage to convert all failed rolls into successes.

Objects produced with the aid of this charm do not exist. They are figments of the creator's imagination, vivid hallucinations which plague the minds of the mad.

Such objects are perceived by and affect only the mad, acting upon them in all ways as if they were an ordinary example of the object. An imaginary bridge will bear the weight of the mad (and any creatures or vehicles they pilot) who drive across it and an imaginary sword will cut their flesh as well as a real one.

The sane suffer no such delusions. To them these items are invisible, and intangible. Unable to affect them in any way, shape or form.

 

[Indivisible]

@rogthnor Wisdom of the Spheres has no mote or wp cost, has only one prerequisite, is available earlier than all other Training charms that target others, and can be used constantly once the infernal can make music reflexively. Furthermore, instead of having a downside, it gives people who use it an intimacy of Fearful Fascination, which makes a lot of Oramus charms stronger against them. It's extremely powerful.

The Bachial Oracle charm is a Cecelyne prayer charm but better, with some Verdant Emptiness Endowment mixed in. It doesn't even require the person praying to be Mad. It could work as a heresy charm that allows the Infernal to use Sleep Forge Gullet in response to a prayer.

There's already some mass social in Oramus' social attacks when sleeping so if you wanted to have something for organizing Yharnam, perhaps a charm that increases the range of the social attack against Mad people who have successfully prayed to you since the last time they slept. You could even have the Infernal count as a mentor for specialties that would help the targets accomplish what they have been told to do.

 

[Exthalion]

Wow, I'm remembering so many questions! Pavlovian training from the awesome people working to bring answers. I LIKE this thread.


Souls are weird. Not because they have multiple parts, but because you can't make them with Wyld-Shaping Technique. Or maybe you can- just not at the same time as a person. Or it's a specific charm? Does that ever show up?

Probably just a separate use of WST. The Primordials just wanted a food source, and salience wasn't a problem for them... so they made a food source that only works when plugged into a living thing you make separately. I guess if the point of humans is a shell/puppet for a soul (to house it/regulate the release of Essence via prayer)... anyway.

Has anyone seen/made a soul-making charm? Infernals need real people to populate the worlds they make, guys! Otherwise, when Creation falls into Oblivion, who will sustain Messianic Charms?

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You can make souls with WST. They are just not very good souls that will dissolve back into chaos when the person dies. All the effects that care about the subject having a soul will work fine on Wyld Shaped people. Those people can even Exalt, at which point their soul becomes strengthened enough to reincarnate.

 

[BossFight]

@rogthnor Wisdom of the Spheres has no mote or wp cost, has only one prerequisite, is available earlier than all other Training charms that target others, and can be used constantly once the infernal can make music reflexively. Furthermore, instead of having a downside, it gives people who use it an intimacy of Fearful Fascination, which makes a lot of Oramus charms stronger against them. It's extremely powerful.

The Bachial Oracle charm is a Cecelyne prayer charm but better, with some Verdant Emptiness Endowment mixed in. It doesn't even require the person praying to be Mad. It could work as a heresy charm that allows the Infernal to use Sleep Forge Gullet in response to a prayer.

There's already some mass social in Oramus' social attacks when sleeping so if you wanted to have something for organizing Yharnam, perhaps a charm that increases the range of the social attack against Mad people who have successfully prayed to you since the last time they slept. You could even have the Infernal count as a mentor for specialties that would help the targets accomplish what they have been told to do.

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These are all very good points. In order:

The lack of cost was meant to be countered by the "always on effect". Which was meant to be as much a detriment as an aide, since it doesn't do anything to inspire loyalty in those around you. Your allies benefit as much as your enemies sort of thing. Do you feel this doesn't balance out?

That is a fair cop on the "fearful fascination" thing. I might trade that up to Nognosia (meaning you are always driving people mad) but that seems both too damaging (everyone around you is always insane) and to good for the Infernal (his stuff works better on the insane after all.)

Another intended major downside is this is supposed to be slow. Should I make it traiing without a tutor?

I don't see how its has VEE mixed in? I mean maybe if you are counting Bachania Muse, but that is a seperate charm which just happens to combo with this, only effects crafting and also inflicts a bunch of derangements

Good catch that it should call out people needing to be mad. It grows off "Echoes of Enlightenment" which lets the Infernal hear the prayers of the mad, so I didn't think to make it explicit that the Infernal needs to be able to hear the prayer (and thus only the mad can use it)

Honestly, if I was going that route, I would just make it so that anyone who prays to you is affected by his nightly casting of Inescapable Visions (and might do that anyway).

I don't want to make it so he counts as a mentor for specialities in line with their mission because that feels to much like a regular god/devotee relationship. Since Oramus is a cosmic horror, I want the benefits of praying to him to be less deliberate. It is the nature of Oramus that watching him, in the dreaming or waking world, grants knowledge and madness both

 

[strange_person]

OK, wow. Cast Total Annihilation more than once?

How do you even get that many motes?

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An E5 Solaroid with WP 10 and the maximum number of mote pool expander charms (e.g. Immanent Solar Glory) will have a pool of about 130 motes, enough for two castings. Could get a few more with maxed-out virtues and Familiars and Skin Mount Amulets but that might be more trouble than it's worth. There are a few different tricks for reducing the mote cost of a spell by up to half. For an exalt, recovering 64 motes is as simple as sleeping or meditating for eight hours (less, with a cult and hearthstones), or triggering a pair of Lightning Boxes plus a two-die stunt.

Being able to do something twice, especially in rapid succession, sends a much less ambiguous message. Girl Genius

 

[Imadaman]

Surprised this isnt threadmarked, it's very good

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I think that while it isn't directly threadmarked, the collection post it is linked in is threadmarked, because I've seen it before and I haven't really gone through the thread except for some of the threadmarks and their links.

 

[Indivisible]

These are all very good points. In order:

The lack of cost was meant to be countered by the "always on effect". Which was meant to be as much a detriment as an aide, since it doesn't do anything to inspire loyalty in those around you. Your allies benefit as much as your enemies sort of thing. Do you feel this doesn't balance out?

That is a fair cop on the "fearful fascination" thing. I might trade that up to Nognosia (meaning you are always driving people mad) but that seems both too damaging (everyone around you is always insane) and to good for the Infernal (his stuff works better on the insane after all.)

Another intended major downside is this is supposed to be slow. Should I make it traiing without a tutor?

I don't see how its has VEE mixed in? I mean maybe if you are counting Bachania Muse, but that is a seperate charm which just happens to combo with this, only effects crafting and also inflicts a bunch of derangements

Good catch that it should call out people needing to be mad. It grows off "Echoes of Enlightenment" which lets the Infernal hear the prayers of the mad, so I didn't think to make it explicit that the Infernal needs to be able to hear the prayer (and thus only the mad can use it)

Honestly, if I was going that route, I would just make it so that anyone who prays to you is affected by his nightly casting of Inescapable Visions (and might do that anyway).

I don't want to make it so he counts as a mentor for specialities in line with their mission because that feels to much like a regular god/devotee relationship. Since Oramus is a cosmic horror, I want the benefits of praying to him to be less deliberate. It is the nature of Oramus that watching him, in the dreaming or waking world, grants knowledge and madness both

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Normally in order to get the benefit from training, you have to spend a lot of time well, training. This charm lets you train while doing other things, which means that there is no opportunity cost. It's also an Essence 1 effect, and most Traing charms are Essence 3.

The VEE comment was meant to be in reference to Bachania Muse, yes.

 

[BossFight]

Normally in order to get the benefit from training, you have to spend a lot of time well, training. This charm lets you train while doing other things, which means that there is no opportunity cost. It's also an Essence 1 effect, and most Traing charms are Essence 3.

The VEE comment was meant to be in reference to Bachania Muse, yes.

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All fair points, and I really appreciate your feedback on this.

The intended balance point for this charm is that it is supposed to sit somewhere in between a charm like Tiger Warrior Training Technique and Verdant Emptiness Endowment

Like breaking those down,
VEE:
Single Target
Can train any skill
Instant duration
Has expansions to grant things beside skills

Tiger Warrior Training Technique
Targets a "unit" (doesn't specify size of the unit, but most such charms do [Essence] Magnitude)
Narrow Focus ( 1 Virtue, 3 Attributes , 4 Abilities and "Drill")
1 Week to take effect
5 hours active effort

Wisdom of the Spheres:
Narrow Focus ( 4 Abilities, 2 Attributes or a Speciality)
Variable Time
Variable Magnitude

So these last two need some going into.

As intended, this charm is meant to effectively be "instant" duration and no active effort for small groups at no cost, making it less costly than VEE but also less versatile.

The use case here is that anyone spending at least 8 hours day is effectively training one of these skills, so circle mates, close friends and family personal aides, etc can effectively bypass training times for those skills. In my mind, with like carefully coordinated schedules and stuff you can probably arrange to have about 2 groups of 10 people rotating every 8 hours, with 8 hours of sleep, capping this charm at 20 people.

So if you are trying to get people trained up as quickly as you can, then every three weeks you can upgrade 20 people 1 dot at no cost.

This is more than VEE, but less than TWTT

So for small groups it is more cost effective than VEE but less versatile


For large groups we run into different issues. Most people won't be able to spend 8 hours a day with you. To target large groups you need to do things like perform plays for the whole kingdom or write and disseminate songs and such.

These large groups will be getting considerably less exposure to your Performances. They might see a 3-hour play once a week, or listen to your songs every day at church or whatever. This is harder to quantify, but considering they need a cumulative 168 hours per dot, I think its safe to say that TWTT which can do the same thing in 5 hours every week would be considerably faster for hitting mass units.

So the niche this is supposed to fit is "small, close-knit groups", and while it can be used for single or mass target training, it is significantly worse at it than other training charms

Also yeah, it should be Essence 3