General Exalted Thread

[veekie]

Doesn't particularly matter which period though?
Basically every society shits on those who don't fit in their criteria of "us-ness", they just change the criteria around. In modern times we sometimes examine whether its right to do so, but its still a struggle to avoid.

Uncommon sexualities are one of the more common minorities to occur, since they show up basically everywhere and they tend to confuse the most common systems for inheritance and perpetuation. In Creation theres also the whole beastmen and mutant prejudice.

Noting of course that this doesn't really tend to feature much in games. Lots of games never have anything remotely sexual, straight or otherwise, happen, since it can be difficult to have groups which handle it maturely(and it only takes one to spoil the game).

 

[Eukie]

I like having my experience that the world is terrible validated by fictional societies being a reflection of that terribleness. Present me with an oppressive empire obsessed with family lines and putting ridiculous pressures on their children, but seems to forgo homophobia and transphobia, it'll feel unreal to me.

 

[Lioness]

Doesn't particularly matter which period though?

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It matters a great deal if you're expected to portray the discrimination because that has the potential to be far more distracting.

Edit:
A personal experience of this was a time when a D&D DM wanted to give the elf ranger (married to another male elf) a foil in the form of a human noble there was a priceless moment where said antagonist called him a 'fag' that had half the group in laughter and destroyed all attempts to take him seriously. He was now a teenaged malcontent pretending to be a badass.

 

[Chehrazad]

Uncommon sexualities are one of the more common minorities to occur, since they show up basically everywhere and they tend to confuse the most common systems for inheritance and perpetuation. In Creation theres also the whole beastmen and mutant prejudice.

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There are also many cultures throughout history who have had homoerotic and homosocial modes of sexuality and while they were certainly not our modern understanding of sexuality (both hetero- and homosexuality) the ancient Greeks recognized many different forms of sexual expression and Exalted should acknowledge similarly. A vaguely modern heterosexuality does not reflect the ancient world, and it is not as simple as simply saying that they didn't respect uncommon sexualities, because a): what a sexuality even is in ancient context is hard to determine since we can't exactly mine the depths of Perikles' mind on what he thought about lesbians and b): there clearly were societies, several even, that had special roles for people of uncommon sexual expression. It's a complicated issue and I don't quite like the way Exalted has handled it, but I also recognize that you can only go so far before what you present become unrecognizable to modern people; identity is not a constant. It's a thorny issue, is what I'm trying to say.

 

[veekie]

There are also many cultures throughout history who have had homoerotic and homosocial modes of sexuality and while they were certainly not our modern understanding of sexuality (both hetero- and homosexuality) the ancient Greeks recognized many different forms of sexual expression and Exalted should acknowledge similarly. A vaguely modern heterosexuality does not reflect the ancient world, and it is not as simple as simply saying that they didn't respect uncommon sexualities, because a): what a sexuality even is in ancient context is hard to determine since we can't exactly mine the depths of Perikles' mind on what he thought about lesbians and b): there clearly were societies, several even, that had special roles for people of uncommon sexual expression. It's a complicated issue and I don't quite like the way Exalted has handled it, but I also recognize that you can only go so far before what you present become unrecognizable to modern people; identity is not a constant. It's a thorny issue, is what I'm trying to say.

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Mmm, pretty much.
I don't think having or not having it at a setting level is going to say much about the writers(barring the perpetuation of offensive stereotypes), but on a per game basis it really depends on how well you know your game table.

Some tables are perfectly okay with it as a throwaway detail, some have to avoid it to have any civility, and some build plots around sexual expression.

 

[Exthalion]

So, would there be space for 'Lesser' War-Striders in 3E? Mass Produced...

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I think this may be fundamentally at odds with what artifacts are supposed to be in 3E. These things would necessarily be "bigger" projects than most Daiklaves, involving more resources and skill on the part of the maker. But even the "basic" Daiklave is supposed to have a name, a history, a spirit unique to itself. That quality is only supposed to be magnified as you climb the dot ladder.

From my understanding, Exalted "technology" is built around the assumption that important people (those able to even consider commissioning artifacts to fulfill their particular wants or needs) have access to sorcery. That could be their own, friends, relatives, what have you. And even before they consider sorcery there are mortals. The price of labor is generally low and hiring a bunch of peasants to carry things is probably cheaper than whatever favor you would owe your sorcerer buddy to summon demons to do it.

So these sorts of "civilian" artifacts would be rare and specialized for those circumstances where it was not feasible for mortals/sorcery to do it. As it is, the availability of demon slaves to important people is probably depressing "mundane" innovation because the people with excellencies will be more focused on problems they do not already have easy and cost-effective solutions for. (Renting slaves to carry things in Rome was cheaper than hiring donkeys. There was no incentive to develop labor-saving devices).

Bringing it all together, I suspect that such things would be warstrider "grade" artifacts but specialized for different tasks rather than knockoff warstriders.


Edit: Because the original post may appear overly dismissive, that is not to say there couldn't be lesser warstrider-like things to fulfill the role you want. But I imagine they would be the sorts of things accomplished by a combination of workings and summoning. That blocky giant might be an actual golem scaled up and the controller sits in the compartment the scroll normally goes in and writes instructions in Cuneiform on clay tablets. Or it might be a giant tree possessed by bound wood elementals.

 

[ichypa]

I don't recall if it made it over to 3e or not, but isn't there as spell that creates a rock construct that lifts stuff for you? It was a Hand of the Mountain or something like that.

 

[Exthalion]

I don't recall if it made it over to 3e or not, but isn't there as spell that creates a rock construct that lifts stuff for you? It was a Hand of the Mountain or something like that.

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There were.

Calling the Stalwart Servitor was an Emerald Circle that summoned a servant that could lift 10 tons and perform basic construction, demolition, labor, etc.
Princes of the Fallen Tower was a Sapphire Circle extreme demolition version.

Wonders had a section on the difference between Golems and Automaton

Hand of the Mountain was an example Golem type from Wonders, a 2 dot artifact, and is called out as the most common labor golem meant to operate in extreme environments like underwater.

 

[strange_person]

we can't exactly mine the depths of Perikles' mind on what he thought about lesbians

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Five minutes on Wikipedia implies that he would, with the benefit of hindsight, have been upset with them for trying to switch sides right before the Peloponnesian War. If you clarified that you were asking about a sex thing rather than the actual island, he'd probably wonder whether the people of the distant future had anything at all better to do with their lives than obsess over foreign poetry and spy on each others' bedrooms.

 

[Lioness]

I like having my experience that the world is terrible validated by fictional societies being a reflection of that terribleness. Present me with an oppressive empire obsessed with family lines and putting ridiculous pressures on their children, but seems to forgo homophobia and transphobia, it'll feel unreal to me.

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You can't necessarily help where your sense of verisimilitude draws the line but its easy to add misogyny to that list.

 

[BossFight]

So I'm going to get a lot of flak for this, but I don't think being Asexual should make you immune to seduction by a Solar or similarly powerful Exalt (and being straight shouldn't prevent a Male solar from seducing you, etc).

Like it should require vast magics which warp the mind and or body, to the point where the power imbalance definitely raises uncomfortable questions, and should be a pretty traumatizing event for the one being seduced (how so you even handle that) but I do think it should be in the purview of Exalts to do all that.

But then, at the level I'm imagining a lot of charms are basically mind control

 

[Sucal]

So I'm going to get a lot of flak for this, but I don't think being Asexual should make you immune to seduction by a Solar or similarly powerful Exalt (and being straight shouldn't prevent a Male solar from seducing you, etc).

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Why would you get flak for it?

There are currently already charms that allow a solar to seduce someone regardless of their sexual preference.

 

[UrsaTempest]

Yeah, it's only not allowed if the ST/other players object to it. Red rule and all.

 

[Broccoliccoli]

Couldnt you solve most problems people apply their seduction to through vectors other than sexual attraction anyway? Asexuals arent robots, they generally just dont want to bang anyone. Lure them into your room by promising them a private concert or get them to be like you by, like, becoming their friend.
Being unable to force them into a sexual relationship shouldnt nerf social characters at all. It just means these characters cant be uncreative and just waggle their boobs to success when they encounter an asexual obstacle.

 

[Sucal]

Being unable to force them into a sexual relationship shouldnt nerf social characters at all. It just means these characters cant be uncreative and just waggle their boobs to success when they encounter an asexual obstacle.

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The issue is that when you have charms that only work via seduction and they are stronger then ones that don't work via seduction, then generally speaking seduction is gonna be your first option, especially since a lot of social charms have the issue that they only work for one particular method. Also because the usual joke is Solar James Bond, and its really hard to see Solar James Bond whipping out a kazoo and belting out a symphony if that doesn't work.

 

[Broccoliccoli]

The issue is that when you have charms that only work via seduction and they are stronger then ones that don't work via seduction, then generally speaking seduction is gonna be your first option, especially since a lot of social charms have the issue that they only work for one particular method. Also because the usual joke is Solar James Bond, and its really hard to see Solar James Bond whipping out a kazoo and belting out a symphony if that doesn't work.

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James Bond is a funny example, because an old franchise like that will have far more characters he cant seduce than just a bunch of asexuals. I havent really watched them, but there should be plenty of examples where Bond has to deal with people who arent into him sexually using his wit and charm.

 

[BossFight]

Couldnt you solve most problems people apply their seduction to through vectors other than sexual attraction anyway? Asexuals arent robots, they generally just dont want to bang anyone. Lure them into your room by promising them a private concert or get them to be like you by, like, becoming their friend.
Being unable to force them into a sexual relationship shouldnt nerf social characters at all. It just means these characters cant be uncreative and just waggle their boobs to success when they encounter an asexual obstacle.

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You certainly can, in fact it would be easier.

Doesn't mean a solar can't choose to use seduction though

 

[Drascin]

Basically generally my question is, would you let a Solar dude "seduce" a gay lady? Because it's basically the same thing.

Cause at that point I feel it's not really "seduction", it's basically plain mindcontrol and subsequent rape, and as an ST I'd probably feel entirely justified to stop the game and tell the player to cut that bullshit.

 

[BossFight]

Basically generally my question is, would you let a Solar dude "seduce" a gay lady? Because it's basically the same thing.

Cause at that point I feel it's not really "seduction", it's basically plain mindcontrol and subsequent rape, and as an ST I'd probably feel entirely justified to stop the game and tell the player to cut that bullshit.

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Yes, on all accounts?

Like the fact that its both mind and literal rape was a key point of my post.

Its definitely something you need to make sure your group is okay with, but that's true of all gross abuses of power

 

[Maugan Ra]

As an asexual I'm gonna ask people to not cover the thread with discussions on how much mind control it would take for me to let you fuck me, thanks.

 

[Chehrazad]

You certainly can, in fact it would be easier.

Doesn't mean a solar can't choose to use seduction though

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I feel like if you want to make statements like that about asexuality, you should at least know the difference between asexuality and aromanticism lol. I am an asexual and have a girlfriend by whom I was very definitely seduced, asexual people can be seduced, asexual people can care about love, asexual people can even care about eroticism.

Aromantic people are different and not the same.

I gotta admit, on pride month, this is an ironic mistake to make.

 

[BossFight]

I feel like if you want to make statements like that about asexuality, you should at least know the difference between asexuality and aromanticism lol. I am an asexual and have a girlfriend by whom I was very definitely seduced, asexual people can be seduced, asexual people can care about love, asexual people can even care about eroticism.

Aromantic people are different and not the same.

I gotta admit, on pride month, this is an ironic mistake to make.

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Mind explaining the difference? I'm always open to learning more

 

[Chehrazad]

Mind explaining the difference? I'm always open to learning more

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Okay, the asexual spectrum is pretty large and not very well-understood but basically it goes like this:

1. Asexual: No sexual attraction, possible romantic attraction. Asexuals can hold and want romantic relationships but don't necessarily want sex in them. For example, I am a biromantic asexual, so I want and can hold romantic relationships with either gender, but don't actually want them to involve sex.
2. Gray-asexual: Generally no sexual attraction, but may occasionally feel sexual attraction, possible romantic attraction. Under this category are demisexuals who only feel sexual attraction after a close romantic connection.
3. Aromantic: Possible sexual attraction, no romantic attraction. Aromantics can hold and want sexual relationships, but don't necessarily want romance.

So, for example, if you are aromantic asexual, you don't want sex or romance, which is what you were actually thinking about when you wrote this, whereas say an aromantic homosexual might want homosexual relationships with people of their own gender, but not feel any romance. Basically, asexual studies require a degree of separation between romantic attraction and sexual attraction. Does that make sense?

EDIT: If any people on the ace-spectrum feel left out by this, please notify me! It was not my intent!

 

[Imrix]

The great innovation of 3e's social influence system is lashing it tight to the target's intimacies, that is, being good at persuading people (including through seduction) means, to the point of almost translating as being good at knowing what people want and working with that. So if a Solar knows someone is asexual, yes they can still seduce that person! Into a happy and platonic cuddle! Because they're a Solar, so they're supernaturally good at understanding the other person!

Like, I've been critical of 3e in my time, but the social influence system is one of the edition's parts that I think is genuinely good, and a fundamental axiom of it is that you have to work with your target's intimacies, to the point that failing to do so makes an attempt Unacceptable Influence. The whole exercise of using the social influence system can essentially be expressed as one of "discover target's values, figure out how to leverage those in a way that aligns with my desires." This isn't 2e anymore, you can't just hammer the UMI button to mind control somebody into doing anything you want. If you want to seduce an ace person, you have to do so in a way that plays ball with their orientation - doing so is not merely good taste, it's fundamentally how the mechanics work.

EDIT: I mean, there is also Rose-Lipped Seduction Style, but frankly I look at that, I look at John Mørke's history as a serial harasser, and I go, "ah, now this badly-written thing makes perfect sense."

 

[Bozwevial]

EDIT: I mean, there is also Rose-Lipped Seduction Style, but frankly I look at that, I look at John Mørke's history as a serial harasser, and I go, "ah, now this badly-written thing makes perfect sense."

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I've wondered for a while if there's space for a version of that Charm (which is most emphatically not the one that we got!) that's essentially the seduction equivalent of one of the Dawn anima powers. Rather than letting you ignore someone's orientation, it instead ignores the kind of blanket social influence prohibitions that you usually find on mindless things, letting the Zenith lull a rampaging guardian construct back to rest with his beauty and demeanor, or trail his fingers gently along a zombie's jawbone and stir a lingering shred of its humanity to draw it away from its violent task.

Off the top of my head, I'm not certain precisely how you'd word that particular Charm. You want to be very, very careful about what kinds of unacceptable influence blocks you're allowing to be bypassed, for what I hope are obvious reasons. Sexuality/orientation/identity are without question off the table, but should you be able to seduce Sigereth into permitting someone to win a game by cheating? What about someone with a Righteous Lion Defense-protected Intimacy (noting that the Charm already provides a mechanism by which you can convince someone to act against that Principle)? Should you be able to soothe and tempt a Lunar in the middle of their Monstrous Urge? Your answers to those questions are probably going to vary quite a bit from person to person, if only because each of them says something different about the setting, the game mechanics, the groups in question...