Would this allow an Infernal to seize control of the Realm Defense Grid?

The RDG is a series of Manses, of which the Imperial Manse is only a single part.

Then the infernal should just have to apply the charm to all the manses, and somehow hold onto all of them for the required duration in years.

If an infernal can maintain a hold of dozens of important manses on the blessed isle, even with DB, sidereal and divine interference for the requires number of years, then I see no reason to deny them the realm defence grid. They likely don't need it to do whatever they want at that point.

On another note

If you somehow got the exalted host and the incarne to rescind the surrender oaths, would the Yozi be freed?
 
Chattel Commanding Clamour
Cost:
12m; Mins: Essence 4; Type: Simple
Keywords: Social, Obvious
Duration: Instant
Prerequisites: Boundless Cognizance Imprisonment
I feel this would fit better as a prerequisite of Crowned by Fury. The logic chain is clearer- all must hear your orders, then all must obey your orders, etc.

It is also probably somewhat overcosted for what it does. 12m a pop to clearly relay a message across an army, from an Artifact I have to create and pay 2 ahls to use?
 
If you somehow got the exalted host and the incarne to rescind the surrender oaths, would the Yozi be freed?
I don't think the exact nature of the oaths are spelled out, but IIRC it's implied that there's a lot more than just some verbal agreements. Soul-surgery, psycho-surgery, physical mutilation, etc.

Gathering the complete exalted host and getting them to lift the terms would probably help a lot, but I'd still expect them to be imprisoned.
 
Chattel Commanding Clamour and Chartreuse Sovereign Audience were rather difficult to estimate as they scale in weird ways, as in addition to every Artifact you created or tainted, any building you created and any zone affected by Calloused City Growth are valid targets/zones it affects.
In my eyes the player is also incentivised, due to the Aggravated health cost of August Architect Metousiosis and no constraints on the radius of my AoE effects inside buildings, to build oversized, sprawling structures that stretch the bounds of "one building", which, once they get their infrastructure going, might possibly escalate.
It is also probably somewhat overcosted for what it does. 12m a pop to clearly relay a message across an army, from an Artifact I have to create and pay 2 ahls to use?
Looking at Infallible Messenger I agree that an Infernal E4 charm should not be worse even if their functions differ a little. Would 8m base cost and 2m for every additonal location sound better?
My problem was, that while for targetting Artifacts for an RTS-lite experience the charm is clearly overprized, shouting your decree from multiple giant structures (say, temple complexes) you built or tainted might have a whole other effect, being an unsubtle multi-target Infallible Messenger.

I have little issue with its position in the char-tree though, as it goes from "be aware of your body" to "act (shout) through your body"

As written, it looks like it just lets you make social attacks on all your thralls at once by hitting them while they sleep. Which is a bit minor for an E5 Charm that demands 25 motes, 3 Willpower, 2 lethal health levels, and 2 points of Limit to invoke.
Now for this...
Writing this charm was rather difficult and I am not sure I did all that well.

Well yes, the main puropse is to draw people, which are your thralls, yes, but also anyone sleeping within your buildings and those plucky adventurers that stole your shinies, into a dream-palace to have a face to face with them.
Whether you do social combat, give them a one scene long training session in medicine or force them to listen to your newest album is really up to you. Only two things are certain:
There is no combat or other physical contact.
You, as a shining terrifying figure looming over all, have no privacy, anyone within that dream percieves you.

In addition only you can interact with the masses as a whole, anyone else is generally part of a small group, if not alone, surrounded by faceless apparitions otherwise.
It leads to the situation in which the heroes party is suddenly discovered by the dark lord and they must either have a 'civil' conversation, surrounded cy his court of shades, or leave at the cost of willpower and the dark lord's disdain.

As for the cost, the general versatility of this charm and the fact that, should for some reason all of Creation be affected by Calloused City Growth, this charm hits the whole population of Creation, makes an appropriate value difficult to estimate.

There is also the fact that this charm, due to its theme, is not supposed to be a pleasant one.
Malfeas taps deeply into his nightmares to find some priced memories and remnants of the Holy Tyrant's royalty and the nobility still remaining in Ligier, and all he can create from it is a twisted, damaged image.
It is an approximation of what the Holy Tyrant might have been, made from memories corroded by pain and time, an untouchable shining king whose decrees reached the ear of each and every of his subjects, but it is just a dream, a nightmare turned sweet for a little while, and the awakening is not a pleasant one.

I am considering lowering the essence cost, for a while it was 12, but it should never reach the point where it becomes a go-to charm, the players choosing to take the hit from NFW and the charms cost for nightly audiences with all of their subjects.
That is just not what Malfeas is known for.
 
Chartreuse Sovereign Audience
For this, I'd suggest cutting the base cost way down and then having it scale with the Magnitude of those effected; maybe 10m + 2m/Magnitude? And probably cut the Agg and Limit costs down to one each, but have it double if you affect over, say, Magnitude 4 or 5 worth of people. Also, it would probably work better if you could target a specific Artifact/structure instead of blasting everything forever.

Edit: On second thought, I'd suggest making the base Charm only affect one target at a time, but add a repurchase that bumps it up to hitting everything.
 
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IIRC there are loopholes, things like the Sun being able to free SHLIHN whenever he wants to, for as long as he wants to.
I think that Saturn can do something similar.
Considering the oaths are so thoroughly binding they propagate down the soul hierarchy, I think of them as less loopholes and more pressure relief valves. Deliberately engineered in to prevent the Yozis from doing something....drastic.
 
Considering the oaths are so thoroughly binding they propagate down the soul hierarchy, I think of them as less loopholes and more pressure relief valves. Deliberately engineered in to prevent the Yozis from doing something....drastic.
.... a question. Are demons free tonenter creation, but are held back by their spiteful masters?
 
.... a question. Are demons free tonenter creation, but are held back by their spiteful masters?

That sounds canony. Opens up weird implications for anybody above first circle like Cecelynes third circles having carte Blanche to visit creation or something, making the surrender oaths meaningless though. So if you're going that direction on something, nobody above first circle is a good idea.

Edit:Ninjaed
 
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That's correct- at least the First Circles are.
That sounds canony. Opens up weird implications for anybody above first circle like Cecelynes third circles having carte Blanche to visit creation or something, making the surrender oaths meaningless though. So if you're going that direction on something, nobody above first circle is a good idea.

Edit:Ninjaed
Yeah.

IIRC, which I'm not sure, cause i can't remember where this came from.

The Exalted removed all the magnanimity, all compassion, and all generosity from the yozis. So they left loopholes and weaknesses and such within the surrender oaths. If they wanted, they could trap the yozis for eternity. Within a place of looped space, where walking out will simply lead you back in.

The only reason why they did so was to give the yozis a poison more toxic than Yozi venom: hope. The Yozis hope that creation and the games of divinity can be saved. They know they cannot make another. And so, they will not try to destroy creation. They will not unleash a tide of endless first circle demons. They will wait, and try to escape. Instead of having nothing to lose.
 
That sounds canony. Opens up weird implications for anybody above first circle like Cecelynes third circles having carte Blanche to visit creation or something, making the surrender oaths meaningless though. So if you're going that direction on something, nobody above first circle is a good idea.

As per GoD, the only thing between Creation and and enless tide of demons is the spite of Cecelyne, that doesn't want anybody to be more trapped than her.
 
Because the Exalted Host was not particularly good.
*shakes head*

Damn, I know. But one would think....

Anyway, let's say I wish to homebrew a spell that imitates the time when an army of skeleton soldiers were created when Jason made the golden fleece. And I want this to be either Celestial or Terrestrial.

What kind of magnitude should I have them to be? Or level? I mean, they're automatons, and fail no valor rolls, but that's the most I think of for now.
 
Why, oh why, did the exalted remove all their magnanimity?
What makes you think that they actually did?

The Primordials were never truly magnanimous, as a human might percieve it, if only because humans were mere cattle, toys from their perspective.
The default human has a term in the ruleset: 'Extra'.
They are background noise for almost any E5+ being.
First Circles? Servitors, tools for their actual souls to wield.
Their souls matter, the souls of other titans matter, being like theirs, the Incarnae matter, being their masterpieces.
I think that if a human ever attracted a Primordials attention in some positive way, they would have been almost instantly reshaped into some spirit/deva thing, just so that their attractive traits would be magnified enough to actually matter.


In a way the first humans to actually act on a level on which the Titans could percieve them to be beings instead of 'extras' would be the Exaled themselves, being on a level comparable to Second and Third Circles.

If the Exalted truly, deliberately removed the magnamity from the Yozis it was to prevent the Exalted host from splintering, as Exalts and Demons met on friendlier terms, and some young Exalts, unaware of what had been before the war, would have begun to think that maybe it was a mistake, that the Yozis were actually capable of magnamity, of caring for humans, that the gods had lied.
Simply because the Exalted mattered, humans did not.

But I do not think that that is what truly happened.
 
What makes you think that they actually did?

The Primordials were never truly magnanimous, as a human might percieve it, if only because humans were mere cattle, toys from their perspective.
The default human has a term in the ruleset: 'Extra'.
They are background noise for almost any E5+ being.
First Circles? Servitors, tools for their actual souls to wield.
Their souls matter, the souls of other titans matter, being like theirs, the Incarnae matter, being their masterpieces.
I think that if a human ever attracted a Primordials attention in some positive way, they would have been almost instantly reshaped into some spirit/deva thing, just so that their attractive traits would be magnified enough to actually matter.
Um, IIRC the book said so.
 
All demons have their own little escape clauses that are like you walking around and noticing a fresh $100 bill (or whatever your local currency equivalent is) on the ground. Somewhere in creation something happens and it opens a tiny crack in hell and if there's an appropiate demon around to capitalize on it, they'll try and escape. I assume that only the appropriate demon can notice the crack and I'm also assuming that it doesn't bypass the 5 day travel time through the endless desert. Now... nothing stops any demon from leaving hell by traveling for five days through Cecelyne, as long as Cecelyne doesn't smite them because they offend her in some manner (and she strikes me as notoriously easy to offend, even for a Yozi), as long as they don't get killed by all the predators that live in her infinite sands, as long as they avoid any non-Yozi directed natural cataclysms like continent-sized sandstorms strip flesh from bone or corrosive monsoons or micro-bursts. But even assuming any demon passing through an actively hostile environment like that is capable of doing so, they have to know the right paths. The cracks do the work of guiding the demon out of hell, but absent one of those most first circle demons are shit out of luck because those paths aren't common knowledge (and the ones that are common knowledge are probably thick with demon bandits that prey on escapees).

2nd and 3rd circle demons are more aware of the paths to creation, but have less desire to leave hell because in hell they are the upper crust (and it's only marginally safer for them to cross the endless desert). In Creation you get asshole monks and sidereals and dragonblooded who put a lot of effort into kicking their asses back to hell, while in Hell you have palaces and hordes of demons who are required by law to obey you.
 
Then you should be able to name the book and exact page numbers, if not the text that says so.
Ok then.

Cities hold people who wish to live together. For jobs, companionship or a sense of belonging, people
choose to come to urban areas and live together. Virtually no one in Malfeas is there by choice. Malfeas and his fellow Yozis are bound there by their own powers turned against them. The demons who serve them are not technically bound by these same magic, but the spite and pride of the Yozis does not allow them to escape either.

You know what, fuck it.

the only ones which say it are the ones which are talking about infernals and lintha.
 
2nd and 3rd circle demons are more aware of the paths to creation, but have less desire to leave hell because in hell they are the upper crust (and it's only marginally safer for them to cross the endless desert). In Creation you get asshole monks and sidereals and dragonblooded who put a lot of effort into kicking their asses back to hell, while in Hell you have palaces and hordes of demons who are required by law to obey you.

What? No, lots of higher demons want to go to Creation. Like, say, Octavian canonically does.
 
*shakes head*

Damn, I know. But one would think....

Anyway, let's say I wish to homebrew a spell that imitates the time when an army of skeleton soldiers were created when Jason made the golden fleece. And I want this to be either Celestial or Terrestrial.

What kind of magnitude should I have them to be? Or level? I mean, they're automatons, and fail no valor rolls, but that's the most I think of for now.
IIRC, this is a canon necromancy spell. Go look it up.
 
The default human has a term in the ruleset: 'Extra'.
They are background noise for almost any E5+ being.
First Circles? Servitors, tools for their actual souls to wield.
Their souls matter, the souls of other titans matter, being like theirs, the Incarnae matter, being their masterpieces.
I think that if a human ever attracted a Primordials attention in some positive way, they would have been almost instantly reshaped into some spirit/deva thing, just so that their attractive traits would be magnified enough to actually matter.


In a way the first humans to actually act on a level on which the Titans could percieve them to be beings instead of 'extras' would be the Exaled themselves, being on a level comparable to Second and Third Circles.
Which is something I pointed out a while back. If a Primordial deva took a shine to a given mortal, their first step would be to un-mortal them, because to them being mortal is akin to being a blind epileptic quadriplegic, and once all that human-ness has been scrubbed off the "real" you (whatever part of you they liked) can shine all the brighter.

Hence my assumption on 80% of mortals in that era being terrified tribesman living hand-to-mouth, because any mortals that actually got anywhere would attract the attention of either the devas (and end up either dead or converted into Primordial akuma) or one of the other races of the era (and end up dead or enslaved.)

The Exalted removed all the magnanimity, all compassion, and all generosity from the yozis. So they left loopholes and weaknesses and such within the surrender oaths. If they wanted, they could trap the yozis for eternity. Within a place of looped space, where walking out will simply lead you back in.

The only reason why they did so was to give the yozis a poison more toxic than Yozi venom: hope. The Yozis hope that creation and the games of divinity can be saved. They know they cannot make another. And so, they will not try to destroy creation. They will not unleash a tide of endless first circle demons. They will wait, and try to escape. Instead of having nothing to lose.
I mean, it is technically canon that the Exalted picked through the Primordials' soul hierarchies and culled "dangerous" souls, but the bulk of the fandom has kind of thrown that in the rubbish heap with the first two chapters of MoEP: Infernals.

The general fan theory is twofold.

First, that the Incarnate Rebellion was a desperate, nail-biting struggle that remained anyone's game right to the finish line. Under such dire circumstances, it was inevitable that some of the Solar Exalted would decide to permakill the Unquestionable they were fighting out of anger, fear, or pragmatism in the heat of the moment. Other souls were lost to younger Solars accidentally unlocking GET & then instinctively using it as they struck a deathblow. Then you have the Primordials whose fetiches were killed: the general consensus there is that The Lidless That Sees was fetich'd in the opening salvo of the war, a calculated alpha strike to deny the Primordial Host their greatest means of gathering intelligence on the Rebellion's movements. Adrian's fetich death may have also been a deliberate move on the part of the Incarnae, or it may have been just another case of one Solar trying to finish the fight quickly and reduce casualties (or get revenge for someone who'd just fallen, etc.). He Who Bleeds the Written Word remains an enigma in most ways, including the circumstances of his fetich death, and the Holy Tyrant was sundered simply because Theion would not kneel until his legs were (only semi-metaphorically) broken at the knee; perhaps Ruvelia being killed instead of Ligier was a matter of her being easier prey, perhaps it was intended to make the diminished Theion more tractable, it's entirely up to how you interpret Ruvelia's role as Theion's second fetich and how much planning you ascribe to her killing.

Second, the effects of the Primordial War and the establishment of Hell on the once-Primordials themselves. For all that they're hypergods that warp the universe by their mere presence, the Yozis are still human enough to be traumatized. For reference:

So, on the note of the Primordial War being justified, the thing to remember is that each side had it's own justification, which goes with my interpretation of 'Demons are saints and jerks just like everyone else. Except the Ebon Dragon, he's a straight up asshole.' From the side of the humans, the War was justified- it lead to them getting the reigns over Creation, after all. From the perspective of the gods, it was justified- it lead to them getting Yu Shan.

But this is one of those 'history is written by the victors' sort of things. Humans didn't choose to start the war. They were essentially press-ganged by the gods. The gods were actually somewhat split. Many of them sided with the Primordials, and when the Exalted won they were locked away, executed, or exiled. The exiled ones are Forbidden Gods, who sometimes show up in the books.

The Incarnae wanted to rebel because they wanted to retire. They wanted the Games of Divinity. However, they couldn't rebel. Their Geass prevented them from taking arms against the Primordials. The only reason they could rebel was a) humans were a weak servant race under the stewardship of the Dragon Kings, and b) Autochthon wanted to straight up murder his kin.

We're sympathetic to this because a) we're human except for those of us who are actually cats, and b) we sympathize with Autochthon as the bullied kid wanting payback. But consider from the perspective of the Primordials:

The Primordial War is a straight up Skynet attack. The automated defense systems that you had designed to not be able to harm you had empowered the mobile prayer mills and made them murder machines. Mainly because the crippled weirdo who designed some of your systems now wants you all dead. Oh, and Gaia is apparently siding with the gynoid that you designed to keep her from wandering off into Rakshaland, and had empowered more of the mobile prayer mills.

From the Primordial perspective, the war is a straight up horror story.
You build a house with your own two hands, and live in it for years with your family. You get a guard dog. Your dog recruits the ants in the yard to make a gun, shoots a bunch of your family, and locks you and the other survivors into a kennel that is several times too small, breaking your arms to fit. Decades later, when the gun is rusted and barely usable and the dog is fat, old and blind, one of the dog's ants lets you out, on condition that you go away and build another house elsewhere instead of beating the dog to death and taking your fucking house back.

Do you? That's how the Yozis see things.

Also it's probably just not possible.

The Yozis are pitted, scarred, traumatized, and forced to obey the whims of usurpers and mass-murderers. Cecelyne's body is bent and broken into a circle around what remains of her beloved Theion, in a blasphemous mockery of a lover's embrace. Malfeas himself was torn open, turned inside out like an old shirt, and then sewn back up again with his sibling-subjects crushed together inside him, screaming and writhing but never ever able to escape.

Oramus, the Dragon Beyond the World, was held down while the Exalted stamped on and broke his seven wings, then knit them into a throbbing flesh-prison around his body. And he had to lie there and let them, or else they'd slit his throat and throw his corpse on the pile with the rest of his brothers and sisters.

She Who Lives In Her Name, architect and organizer without peer, the quiet assistant whose work made her brother's Great Creation possible, was so dedicated to her principles that she chose to bow before the people who butchered her kin and mutilated her one love beyond recognition, simply because to her doing so was the only moral choice. And for no reason she will ever understand, they flatly refused her fealty and threw her into Malfeas with the rest of them.

Their souls were cataloged, picked over like horses at market, and then trotted out to perform as the Deliberative pleased: their very hopes, dreams, and beliefs turned into nothing but a set of toys for their conquerors.

All the while, the scars and wounds of the war festered in their bodies, just as the pain and humiliation and grief festered in their minds. Centuries of that, without a moment of relief, without the faintest hope of salvation.

The Yozis are monsters, but they're monsters made by neglect and abuse, not spiritual lobotomy.
 
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