General Exalted Thread

[Leingod]

She happened to have "lucked out" and got a version of the Great Curse that made her look heroic, if somewhat nuts.

Click to shrink...

I mean, the way I always saw it, the influence of the Great Curse isn't like some foreign parasite that rewires your brain; it's much more insidious than that. The Great Curse just takes you and sort of pushes it a bit, which is why you're usually encouraged to take a Limit Break that makes sense for the character. The Great Curse itself, after all, is meant to simulate the tragic flaws and passions that lay low the heroes of great epics, like Achilles and Gilgamesh. Anything, virtue or flaw, taken to excess becomes dangerous and psychotic, and with the Great Curse a Solar will eventually take any Virtue, even moderation, to dangerous levels of excess.

So it actually speaks well of Salina that her Great Curse manifested itself as a desire to empower Mortals; it tapped into both her boundless optimism and her desire to teach and help others. Salina honestly believed that, while there would definitely be problems, a world where everyone could shape the world around them with Essence like the Exalted did would be a better world, because she believed that they could handle that responsibility and power. It's how the idea of the First Age Solars as these great and wonderful heroes who were laid low by their faults and foibles (helped along by the Great Curse) became Creation's greatest threat without ever realizing it should be handled more often than exactly one time in Dreams of the First Age. Because that's the only way you can honestly believe that there was ever any kind of debate among the Sidereals as to how to handle the Solar Problem; with the way First Age Solars were portrayed there, the Gold Faction all sound like complete lunatics for wanting the Solars back.

Plus, given how many times I've seen people arguing over how to most efficiently give every mortal on the planet enlightened Essence, Sorcery and Martial Arts, I'd say a lot of Exalted fans don't really have much room to call Salina the crazy one.

 

[Accelerator]

I mean, the way I always saw it, the influence of the Great Curse isn't like some foreign parasite that rewires your brain; it's much more insidious than that. The Great Curse just takes you and sort of pushes it a bit, which is why you're usually encouraged to take a Limit Break that makes sense for the character. The Great Curse itself, after all, is meant to simulate the tragic flaws and passions that lay low the heroes of great epics, like Achilles and Gilgamesh. Anything, virtue or flaw, taken to excess becomes dangerous and psychotic, and with the Great Curse a Solar will eventually take any Virtue, even moderation, to dangerous levels of excess.

So it actually speaks well of Salina that her Great Curse manifested itself as a desire to empower Mortals; it tapped into both her boundless optimism and her desire to teach and help others. Salina honestly believed that, while there would definitely be problems, a world where everyone could shape the world around them with Essence like the Exalted did would be a better world, because she believed that they could handle that responsibility and power. It's how the idea of the First Age Solars as these great and wonderful heroes who were laid low by their faults and foibles (helped along by the Great Curse) became Creation's greatest threat without ever realizing it should be handled more often than exactly one time in Dreams of the First Age. Because that's the only way you can honestly believe that there was ever any kind of debate among the Sidereals as to how to handle the Solar Problem; with the way First Age Solars were portrayed there, the Gold Faction all sound like complete lunatics for wanting the Solars back.

Plus, given how many times I've seen people arguing over how to most efficiently give every mortal on the planet enlightened Essence, Sorcery and Martial Arts, I'd say a lot of Exalted fans don't really have much room to call Salina the crazy one.

Click to shrink...

.....come to think of it, i wonder if instead of sorcery, Salina carried out a working that enabled mortals to learn the 1st 3 excellencies

 

[EarthScorpion]

Then you basically can't have an Age of Dreams, because any world-shaping wonders you assign to it, the players will want to repeat, and if you don't assign it any, the whole thing is toothless and underwhelming for lack of detail. I imagine that would have unwelcome echoes throughout the rest of the line, where the idea of an age of wonders ruined and lost is kind of an important aspect.

Basically, "tough shit."

Click to shrink...

That makes no sense.

There is a quantifiable difference between most of the elements of the gameline ascribed to the Era of Dreams, and "changing basic mechanics". Trying to pretend that "yeah, we can alter pre-requisites for mechanical things" is at all equivalent to, say, "men in that era was so wealthy that even the least peasant ate as well as the kings of today, and their knowledge of medicine was so great that even the worst sicknesses could be cured and most men lived to see their second century" just doesn't cut the mustard.

Calling up islands with sorcery? Wiping out plague? Building flying machines from orichalcum and jade? Building vast jade pillars that slay any prince of chaos who comes near it? Engineering new species? Making a land where it is so safe that someone can cross it dressed only in underwear made of money and the worst that will happen to them is people will assume they have a thing for filthy lucre?

All within scope. Totally okay for PCs to want to do.

Tampering with basic mechanics? No. I put this in the same category as "making new Abilities" or "providing universal mote discounts" or "altering a splat's dice cap" as something I just don't want to go near.

(Salina might have wanted to do that, of course, but it might have been beyond even her power. And the Sidereals might have been awfully scared by her talk of 'ascending human consciousness so all men intuitively understand sorcery', because not least that would be the extinction of man as it is now and the new race would not Exalt.)

 

[Imrix]

There is a quantifiable difference between most of the elements of the gameline ascribed to the Era of Dreams, and "changing basic mechanics". Trying to pretend that "yeah, we can alter pre-requisites for mechanical things" is at all equivalent to, say, "men in that era was so wealthy that even the least peasant ate as well as the kings of today, and their knowledge of medicine was so great that even the worst sicknesses could be cured and most men lived to see their second century" just doesn't cut the mustard.

Click to shrink...

Yes. As far as building the Age of Dreams up as something wondrous, I regard the latter as, basically, toothless and underwhelming.

 

[EarthScorpion]

You do you, then.

I'll be over here, not opening the door to players thinking they can change basic mechanical features of the game like "Enlightenment prereqs" through IC means (rather than OOC discussion with the GM).

 

[Accelerator]

(Salina might have wanted to do that, of course, but it might have been beyond even her power. And the Sidereals might have been awfully scared by her talk of 'ascending human consciousness so all men intuitively understand sorcery', because not least that would be the extinction of man as it is now and the new race would not Exalt.)

Click to shrink...

Woah. How so?

I thought exaltation juat required a 2 part soul?

 

[EarthScorpion]

@EarthScorpion and I have raised the "mortal sorcerer" question. We're still considering whether the Emerald Circle should be En3 or En4.

Click to shrink...

Actually, hmm, thinking about the precedent set by things like Exemplars and other such things, Aleph. Mmm.

I think that an E3 mortal who performs the trials of sorcery achieves transcendence as their mind is opened to an understanding of essence beyond that which any mortal can have. They will either die, wracked by cosmic power, become a new order of being (no longer technically mortal or human, but an E4 sorcerer), or - occasionally - get a nearby Exaltation going "You're pretty cool, brah" and go "ping" and start glowing with an anima banner. And also become a sorcerer.

This provides a path to transcendence via sorcery as a rare and powerful thing, but also conveniently stops template stacking for empowered mortals.

Now, the great thing about this is that sorcery is a Yozi thing. So a mortal who does this miiiiiiight get caught by the Immaculate thing about Anathema, because they just became a new order of being wielding magic and they're clearly not human. Especially if they tend to pick up a few mutations from the transcendence [1]. They're clearly not the same as the Solar and Lunar Anathema, but they're once-human mortals who just stole the power of sorcery, so maybe they're what the Anathema started as before they stole the power of the sun and moon. Which means these sorcerers will likely be frowned on by the Immaculate Order and means these sorcerer-kings won't be found in Realm areas so often, and makes them philosophically inclined towards anyone who opposes the Realm.

[1] Or occasionally just go full Dr Manhattan, for those instances when you float and are blue. Of course, from his caste mark we can tell that Dr Manhatten was an Eclipsoid.

 

[Chehrazad]

I think that an E3 mortal who performs the trials of sorcery achieves transcendence as their mind is opened to an understanding of essence beyond that which any mortal can have. They will either die, wracked by cosmic power, become a new order of being (no longer technically mortal or human, but an E4 sorcerer), or - occasionally - get a nearby Exaltation going "You're pretty cool, brah" and go "ping" and start glowing with an anima banner. And also become a sorcerer.

Click to shrink...

I proposed exactly this to you a month ago on Discord you bastard!

 

[Alasnuyo]

Tampering with basic mechanics? No. I put this in the same category as "making new Abilities" or "providing universal mote discounts" or "altering a splat's dice cap" as something I just don't want to go near.

(Salina might have wanted to do that, of course, but it might have been beyond even her power. And the Sidereals might have been awfully scared by her talk of 'ascending human consciousness so all men intuitively understand sorcery', because not least that would be the extinction of man as it is now and the new race would not Exalt.)

Click to shrink...

Or we can say that what she wants isn't so much as tampering with basic mechanics, but more about making it massively easier for humans to enlighten themselves to E4 and beyond, fulfilling the requirements for sorcery stuff.

 

[Accelerator]

Or we can say that what she wants isn't so much as tampering with basic mechanics, but more about making it massively easier for humans to enlighten themselves to E4 and beyond, fulfilling the requirements for sorcery stuff.

Click to shrink...

But wouldn't it make more sense to make it massively easier for humans to enlighten themselves at all?

I mean, in age of sorrows creation, there is no way to easily awaken essence. Not without risk.

 

[Chehrazad]

she

Click to shrink...

(Psst, @Imrix is male.)

 

[Bel]

Well yeah. In the High First Age you had transcendent Genius God-Kings who could tweak things out to the nano-mote how to most efficiently and safely awaken somebody's essence. Nowadays your either going to a God/Exalt/Demon/Elemental and hoping they don't screw you over, ingesting strange plants and going on a wild trip, or hang out in the middle of a Wyld-Zone and hope like hell you awaken your essence and don't just mutate into something other than human.

Unless you ARE a transcendent genius God-King, with a shit ton of resources and understanding, trying to tweak both creation itself and the souls of mankind so that its easy to pick up sorcery is not going to be easy or smooth. When you fuck up something on THAT scale...well there are all kinds of things that could go wrong. This is classic "They called me MAD, But I will show them all!" territory...with heroes bursting into the door to stop your mad scheme.

 

[Alasnuyo]

(Psst, @Imrix is male.)

Click to shrink...

I was talking about Salina.

 

[Leingod]

Anyway, while the ultimate goal that the Salinan Working was a step towards was the uplifting of all Mortals to Enlightened Mortals (or "Empowered" or "Awakened" Mortals if you want to distinguish awareness of Essence and the ability to mold it from actual spiritual enlightenment), the major goal of the Salinan Working itself was to ensure that no one could ever hold a monopoly on access to Sorcery, and that anyone who was capable of learning it could find a way to do so.

In fact, it's never stated directly whether it's the Salinan Working that allows Mortals to access the Emerald Circle, that's just kind of assumed because she was big on empowering Mortals. The only certainty about the Salinan Working is that it ensures that the potential for Sorcery can never be completely out of reach for anyone. it can be hard as hell, but it can never be legitimately impossible.

 

[Dark Lord Bob]

Yes. As far as I'm aware the Salinan working just (just!) made it so that you didn't have to learn Sorcery from a Sorcerer. If a Sorcerer couldn't have taught you before, you still can't learn. But if you were capable of learning but were somehow prevented, through lack of access to a teacher, you now can.

 

[Leingod]

Hmm, I could see him as a headmaster of Heptagram. He would be perfect as someone who teach Sorcery to both Terrestials and young Sids. It fallows that he would be highly-regarded, but his teaching and distance from Heaven would make him less politically powerful. He probably have a tea with Chejop Kejak and his inner circle once a year and symbolic position in Convention of Blassed Isle. But lots of Sidreals are his former students and he probably could ask a lot of favours if he needed something done.

He is obviously a Secret. The foremost living experts on Time and various Time-related snarls in Loom of Fate.

Click to shrink...

That definitely suits him, but I'm not sure if Chejop Kejak would allow him to have that much influence over young Terrestrial and Sidereal minds. Because while Kejak and Ozpin would probably greatly respect each other, and would probably even be good friends, I don't think they'd see eye to eye on some very important things, and Kejak does not hand power to his rivals lightly. In fact, I think Ozpin would hold some ideas that neither the Gold nor Bronze Factions could agree with him on.

What do I mean by that? Well, when you get right down to it, the Gold and Bronze Factions agree on all but one thing. Both of them believe that they, the Viziers of Fate, are the ones who know better than everyone and should be the ones deciding how things get done in Creation. Both of them believe that, since they aren't suited for doing so directly (and for various other reasons), this is best accomplished by playing "Man Behind the Man" to other Exalts. Both of them play puppet master to facilitate this ultimate goal of ensuring that the Sidereals are the ones who are really calling all the shots. The only thing they really differ on, once you get past the ideology that's developed around this essential point, is over their choice of tools. This was the case both before and after the Usurpation, really.

Basically, when the Great Prophecy was made, the fundamental choice every Sidereal had to make was a choice about gambling. "Long odds for the jackpot, or moderate payoff for the sure thing?" Strip away all the flowery language, and that's really what the Gold/Bronze divide is. The Gold Faction wants the Solars to be the "rulers" of Creation because their Charms and Sorcery allows them to create wonders impossible for any other Exalt. The Bronze Faction wants the Dragon-Blooded to be the "rulers" of Creation because they're more stable and (relative to Solars) easier to manipulate.

The jackpot, or the sure thing? That's it. That's the dividing line. In fact, it's right there in the names; do you go for the Gold and hope you can pull it off? Or do you settle for Bronze because it's better than the nothing you'd get if you tried for Gold and failed?

Ozpin differs from both Chejak Kejop and Ayesha Ura in a much more fundamental way: if he had his way, at some point in the future (likely the distant future), Ozpin would want to relinquish power. Not all of it, but at some point, Ozpin would want to invest some actual trust in other Exalts. I think that something that's at the heart of Ozpin's character in RWBY is that he is, in fact, a teacher.

What do I mean by that? I mean that Ozpin, like a good teacher, doesn't think students are there to be lectured at and to believe whatever he tells them is truth because he is the teacher and they are the student and they will never know better than him. Ozpin believes his job is to instill the skills his students will need to learn and grow themselves, and that means they need the freedom to question him and even disagree with him. What's more, he believes that at some point his "students" will be ready to "graduate." He simply prizes the power of people to grow and learn too much to think otherwise, really.

Chejop Kejak doesn't believe that. Ayesha Ura doesn't believe that, though she might pretend to. I imagine very few, if any, Sidereal Elders believe that. Ozpin can never fully support either the Gold or Bronze Faction, because ultimately, both of them want to keep the other Exalted in a state of permanent studenthood and permanent childhood; both of them inculcate dogma and misinformation to ensure it. Both the Immaculate Philosophy and the Cult of the Illuminated are sustained campaigns of social engineering and religious dogmatism meant to ensure that kind of eternal, unquestioning "you are here to be lectured at" dysfunctional student/teacher relationship; one the students in question aren't even aware of, at that.

So while he might accept such methods as an unfortunate necessity in Creation as it currently is, Ozpin would ultimately want the Sidereals to work toward giving the Exalted and Creation at large the skills and tools to move past the need for such misinformation. Ozpin, I think, is the only Sidereal Elder who will remember that the Sidereals are supposed to be the advisers to the Exalted, not the puppeteers.

Then again, Great Curse and all that. But I think that should manifest at least subtly different in Ozpin than in guys like Kejak.

 

[SinisterPorpoise]

So it actually speaks well of Salina that her Great Curse manifested itself as a desire to empower Mortals;

Click to shrink...

That was actually a part of her Motivation; achieving true Equality by destroying Hierarchy.
Her Great Curse manifested as effectively being a literal Social Justice Warrior;

Spoiler: DOTFA; Lords of Creation, P.138

The intense Salina is so concerned about the welfare of others that observing even minor social problem is likely to send her on an Unshakable Crusade. Whenever she notices an injustice she rolls Compassion to gain Limit, and once her Kimit Breaks she becomes obsessed with one of the injustices she saw. The Zenith will then attempt whatever actions she thinks necessary to immediately repair the problem.

 

[Leingod]

That was actually a part of her Motivation; achieving true Equality by destroying Hierarchy.
Her Great Curse manifested as effectively being a literal Social Justice Warrior;

Spoiler: DOTFA; Lords of Creation, P.138

The intense Salina is so concerned about the welfare of others that observing even minor social problem is likely to send her on an Unshakable Crusade. Whenever she notices an injustice she rolls Compassion to gain Limit, and once her Kimit Breaks she becomes obsessed with one of the injustices she saw. The Zenith will then attempt whatever actions she thinks necessary to immediately repair the problem.

Click to shrink...

Pretty much, yeah. And that becomes a terrible thing because anything taken too far becomes dangerous and terrible, even equality and freedom. After all, "not everyone has access to a nuke" is also inequality/hierarchy. And since Salina is so optimistic about people, rather than reaching the conclusion "no one should have a nuke," she comes to the conclusion that "everyone should have a nuke."

... Holy sh*t, Salina is Syndrome from Incredibles.

That definitely suits him, but I'm not sure if Chejop Kejak would allow him to have that much influence over young Terrestrial and Sidereal minds. Because while Kejak and Ozpin would probably greatly respect each other, and would probably even be good friends, I don't think they'd see eye to eye on some very important things, and Kejak does not hand power to his rivals lightly. In fact, I think Ozpin would hold some ideas that neither the Gold nor Bronze Factions could agree with him on.

What do I mean by that? Well, when you get right down to it, the Gold and Bronze Factions agree on all but one thing. Both of them believe that they, the Viziers of Fate, are the ones who know better than everyone and should be the ones deciding how things get done in Creation. Both of them believe that, since they aren't suited for doing so directly (and for various other reasons), this is best accomplished by playing "Man Behind the Man" to other Exalts. Both of them play puppet master to facilitate this ultimate goal of ensuring that the Sidereals are the ones who are really calling all the shots. The only thing they really differ on, once you get past the ideology that's developed around this essential point, is over their choice of tools. This was the case both before and after the Usurpation, really.

Basically, when the Great Prophecy was made, the fundamental choice every Sidereal had to make was a choice about gambling. "Long odds for the jackpot, or moderate payoff for the sure thing?" Strip away all the flowery language, and that's really what the Gold/Bronze divide is. The Gold Faction wants the Solars to be the "rulers" of Creation because their Charms and Sorcery allows them to create wonders impossible for any other Exalt. The Bronze Faction wants the Dragon-Blooded to be the "rulers" of Creation because they're more stable and (relative to Solars) easier to manipulate.

The jackpot, or the sure thing? That's it. That's the dividing line. In fact, it's right there in the names; do you go for the Gold and hope you can pull it off? Or do you settle for Bronze because it's better than the nothing you'd get if you tried for Gold and failed?

Ozpin differs from both Chejak Kejop and Ayesha Ura in a much more fundamental way: if he had his way, at some point in the future (likely the distant future), Ozpin would want to relinquish power. Not all of it, but at some point, Ozpin would want to invest some actual trust in other Exalts. I think that something that's at the heart of Ozpin's character in RWBY is that he is, in fact, a teacher.

What do I mean by that? I mean that Ozpin, like a good teacher, doesn't think students are there to be lectured at and to believe whatever he tells them is truth because he is the teacher and they are the student and they will never know better than him. Ozpin believes his job is to instill the skills his students will need to learn and grow themselves, and that means they need the freedom to question him and even disagree with him. What's more, he believes that at some point his "students" will be ready to "graduate." He simply prizes the power of people to grow and learn too much to think otherwise, really.

Chejop Kejak doesn't believe that. Ayesha Ura doesn't believe that, though she might pretend to. I imagine very few, if any, Sidereal Elders believe that. Ozpin can never fully support either the Gold or Bronze Faction, because ultimately, both of them want to keep the other Exalted in a state of permanent studenthood and permanent childhood; both of them inculcate dogma and misinformation to ensure it. Both the Immaculate Philosophy and the Cult of the Illuminated are sustained campaigns of social engineering and religious dogmatism meant to ensure that kind of eternal, unquestioning "you are here to be lectured at" dysfunctional student/teacher relationship; one the students in question aren't even aware of, at that.

So while he might accept such methods as an unfortunate necessity in Creation as it currently is, Ozpin would ultimately want the Sidereals to work toward giving the Exalted and Creation at large the skills and tools to move past the need for such misinformation. Ozpin, I think, is the only Sidereal Elder who will remember that the Sidereals are supposed to be the advisers to the Exalted, not the puppeteers.

Then again, Great Curse and all that. But I think that should manifest at least subtly different in Ozpin than in guys like Kejak.

Click to shrink...

To clarify further, I think the best example of how Ozpin differs from the average Elder Sidereal (the go-to example of such, of course, being Chejop Kejak) would be how he treated Pyrrha.

Imagine for a moment that rather than a Huntress-in-training being offered half of a Maiden's powers, Pyrrha is a young Solar Exalt that Ozpin needs to do a certain vital and tremendously dangerous task for him. Incidentally, Pyrrha as a Solar is incredibly easy to envision. Like, Ignis Divine, someone must have written this at some point, right?

How would your average Sidereal Elder handle this? Hell, just the average Sidereal in general? That's an easy one to answer: by taking advantage of her. SOP for a Sidereal in this position would be to lie, either outright or in spirit. It would be to study how to best manipulate her emotions and beliefs to use them against her. It would be to misrepresent themselves to convince her to trust them. In both RWBY and Exalted, Ozpin could have done any and all of this to get Pyrrha to do what he needed her to do.

But what did Ozpin do instead? He educated her, in as comprehensive and unbiased a manner as he was capable of. He laid out exactly what he was asking of her, and explained what it meant. He didn't tell her everything, of course, but he told her everything that was relevant to the choice she was faced with. He even admitted the limits of his knowledge when he told Pyrrha he wasn't entirely sure what could happen to her, just that it had the potential to be very bad. And after laying all of that out as clearly as he could, Ozpin gave her time and space to come to a conclusion on her own, and made clear to her that it was her choice to make, and that he would respect it.

And even once Pyrrha has agreed to the choice, Ozpin stops her and asks her once again, just to make sure that she's making this choice herself. In fact, he requires her to reaffirm her choice before he goes any further. Even as desperate and pressed for time as they were, Ozpin trusted Pyrrha to make her own choices. The elder Sidereal trusted the young Solar to do what was right, and he did it all without ever once misleading or manipulating her.

 

[landcollector]

... Holy sh*t, Salina is Syndrome from Incredibles.

Click to shrink...

Ehhhh. I'm not sure that comparison holds up that well, given the significant differences behind their motivations.

 

[Leingod]

Ehhhh. I'm not sure that comparison holds up that well, given the significant differences behind their motivations.

Click to shrink...

True. I meant more in the sense that Syndrome's quote about "once everyone's super, no one will be" and how it could apply equally well to Salina, just with completely different connotations behind it.

 

[EarthScorpion]

To clarify further, I think the best example of how Ozpin differs from the average Elder Sidereal (the go-to example of such, of course, being Chejop Kejak) would be how he treated Pyrrha.

Imagine for a moment that rather than a Huntress-in-training being offered half of a Maiden's powers, Pyrrha is a young Solar Exalt that Ozpin needs to do a certain vital and tremendously dangerous task for him. Incidentally, Pyrrha as a Solar is incredibly easy to envision. Like, Ignis Divine, someone must have written this at some point, right?

How would your average Sidereal Elder handle this? Hell, just the average Sidereal in general? That's an easy one to answer: by taking advantage of her. SOP for a Sidereal in this position would be to lie, either outright or in spirit. It would be to study how to best manipulate her emotions and beliefs to use them against her. It would be to misrepresent themselves to convince her to trust them. In both RWBY and Exalted, Ozpin could have done any and all of this to get Pyrrha to do what he needed her to do.

Click to shrink...

What, god no.

Writing Sidereals as shallow idiots does them a major disservice, and also makes them a strawman for people to kick over.

The Gold Faction doesn't lie to you. It doesn't even mostly mislead you. What it does is tell you a truth that you want to believe - because the mostly young Sidereals of the Gold Faction believe it too. It tells you that you're a glorious shining hero of a lost age. It tells you that your past life was murdered by the Dragonblooded. It tells you that the Dragonblooded want to kill you. It tells you how much Creation has fallen due to the absence of the Solars. It tells you to be virtuous, considered, temperate and to control your vices, so you're a better human being and a better ruler because the people of Creation deserve better than the corruption of the Realm.

Yes, they don't mention the Sidereal involvement in the Usurpation - because as far as they're concerned, it wasn't them. And Sidereals are the Five Score Fellowship, and debates remain in house. It's the only way to survive in Yu Shan. Sidereals don't kill each other - and the fact that Sad Ivory did was a major crime.

The Gold Faction isn't made up of power-seekers or anything like that, because for most of its existence the Gold Faction has had no hope of power. To survive as a faction in the conditions they've survived in, they need to be fanatics. Sidereals who want an easier life join the Bronze Faction in the periphery, or just align themselves with the independents.

The tragedy of the modern Gold Faction isn't that they're exactly the same as the Bronze Faction, but wearing different hats. The tragedy is that they're a bunch of idealists who have romanticised the Solars to the same extent that the Bronze have exaggerated their flaws. Yes, now that the Solars are back they'll attract people whose opinion is more about the power that associating with Solars can bring, but the core of the faction is hardcore believers. And they're not the only ones. Indeed, Sidereals in general run off Virtues more than Solars. Their mechanics more strongly encourage them to Virtue than Solars.

In addition, your belief that the way he laid things out is not "manipulating her" is laughable. "Are you sure you want to do this?" is a way of reaffirming belief as much as it is questioning it. Presenting someone with a choice you've previously stacked is much more effective than demanding an ultimatum. Education itself is a way of teaching values and belief systems. Every time he spoke to the students about the value of friendship, of protecting the innocent, and other things like that, he was impressing his belief systems and his values - which support accepting the offer - on someone.

But then again, as @MJ12 Commando has said in the past, so many people seem to think that the only way to manipulate someone is by lying to them as you twirl your moustache. And that belief just makes people more vulnerable to manipulation.

 

[Dif]

Especially in a gameline infected by the horrid "Do the impossible, touch the untouchable" meme.

Click to shrink...

Here is the thing though, the criticism being leveled here is entirely mislaid given the fact that the text frequently attempts to posture Exalts as A Big Fucking Deal who regularly change the world in sudden, unforeseeable ways and put major players on the back foot due to the sheer powerful force of their influence. No one wants to buy into a game of "Shoot for the moon, reach for the stars! But not that far. Maybe a little closer. Maybe closer than that, like next door at best. But we're giving you a Saturn V rocket to accomplish that anyway, and its your fault if it burns down your house trying to get there."

There's nothing so inherently wrong with the 'Do the impossible' mindset which isn't also inherently wrong with how Exalted has always presented its challenges to players and STs alike, by a willful, outright refusal to lift the veil even a little and explain Why some of these things are treated as unbreakable constants even if they are narratively malleable states, and/or the resulting consequences of not respecting those limitations. And moreover, why Keeping those unbreakable constants in-place (both in or out of game) should be seen as a worthwhile endeavor and the primary reason no one yet has chosen to nullify them, rather than a trite "everyone else has been too stupid to try/you're just trying too hard and that's excessive and lame."

The only meaningful attempt to date has been the plot-potential for freeing the Yozis from their prison, because it was the hinging question across which an entire splat was based, and therefore was required to be discussed for people to grasp the magnitude of this explicit setting-design decision masquerading as "Exalts changed the world by being righteous badasses in a morally-reprehensible way." Meanwhile, in the very show the entire meme was popularized, every attempt to DO an impossible, miraculous thing ultimately came at the price of an inordinately huge sacrifice that the heroes were forced to pay to see that thing get realized. The lasting consequences were the primary source of drama, not necessarily the undertaking of those impossible feats.

Sometimes overtly related to the task at hand, like whittling down a sprawling (if sparsely characterized and unnamed) cast down to the single digits, sometimes tangentially by breaking or wearing down everything meaningful to the characters in the form of relationships or equipment as a dramatic focus, to the point that even the ending is heavily bittersweet and only a happy one at all by dint of being a genre-reconstruction and thus all of this accumulated loss is seen to have been worthwhile, maturely accepting the consequences of heroism and stepping away from all-consuming power in the end, rather than seeing it as cause for a newer, more quixotic quest to regain those things and correct the newly-perceived injustices wrought by their own actions.

And Exalted suffers under the part where Acceptance is often an unachievable fail-state, because slamming headfirst into a wall often means curtailing a plot entirely midstream, usually resulting in about the same issues than if it had run rampant and left the Storyteller ill-equipped to understand just How sweeping the fallout would become. It kind of generally assumes that players and STs alike will bumble their way into SOME kind of meaningful story in this way, much in the same fashion it assumes that any combination of Charms is a valid way to play, and having any more knowledge of itself and the things it is trying to do will shatter the entire illusion.

So no, the capability to defy the established setting and mechanics isn't the problem here, but the lack of understanding in when and how those things don't Have to be, and knowing why they are necessary limitations where the potential to remove them is best left unexplored and for good reason.

 

[Aleph]

But then again, as @MJ12 Commando has said in the past, so many people seem to think that the only way to manipulate someone is by lying to them as you twirl your moustache. And that belief just makes people more vulnerable to manipulation

Click to shrink...

Saying "are you sure you want to do this?" and "it's dangerous; there's no shame in backing out" and "I cannot force you to do this; it's your choice to make" and "nobody will think any less of you for refusing" are among the best ways to sink someone into being even more determined to do it than ever, if said in the right way.

 

[Leingod]

Writing Sidereals as shallow idiots does them a major disservice, and also makes them a strawman for people to kick over.

Click to shrink...

Not what I was trying to do, but since I don't actually own most of the materials and learn them secondhand, I'll admit I might have done so regardless.

The Gold Faction doesn't lie to you. It doesn't even mostly mislead you. What it does is tell you a truth that you want to believe - because the mostly young Sidereals of the Gold Faction believe it too. It tells you that you're a glorious shining hero of a lost age. It tells you that your past life was murdered by the Dragonblooded. It tells you that the Dragonblooded want to kill you. It tells you how much Creation has fallen due to the absence of the Solars. It tells you to be virtuous, considered, temperate and to control your vices, so you're a better human being and a better ruler because the people of Creation deserve better than the corruption of the Realm.

Yes, they don't mention the Sidereal involvement in the Usurpation - because as far as they're concerned, it wasn't them. And Sidereals are the Five Score Fellowship, and debates remain in house. It's the only way to survive in Yu Shan. Sidereals don't kill each other - and the fact that Sad Ivory did was a major crime.

Click to shrink...

I'll concede on how straight the Gold Faction is; again, my knowledge tends to come secondhand past the core book, the splatbooks for Infernals and Alchemicals, and a few of the Compass books. And Rise of the Scarlet Empress, but that appears to be one of those things we're not supposed to talk about.

That said, I made no claims at all about Sidereals killing each other over the Gold/Bronze thing (though unless I was drastically misinformed, the first leader of the Gold Faction was assassinated for trying to warn the Solars of the Usurpation, and Kejak ordered it done. Which are very extreme circumstances, but not exactly "Sidereals never kill each other." IIRC, their Exaltation ended up in Ayesha Ura herself, in fact).

The Gold Faction isn't made up of power-seekers or anything like that, because for most of its existence the Gold Faction has had no hope of power. To survive as a faction in the conditions they've survived in, they need to be fanatics. Sidereals who want an easier life join the Bronze Faction in the periphery, or just align themselves with the independents.

The tragedy of the modern Gold Faction isn't that they're exactly the same as the Bronze Faction, but wearing different hats. The tragedy is that they're a bunch of idealists who have romanticised the Solars to the same extent that the Bronze have exaggerated their flaws. Yes, now that the Solars are back they'll attract people whose opinion is more about the power that associating with Solars can bring, but the core of the faction is hardcore believers. And they're not the only ones. Indeed, Sidereals in general run off Virtues more than Solars. Their mechanics more strongly encourage them to Virtue than Solars.

Click to shrink...

Huh. It was my understanding that until the Solars' return made it a viable thing again, the Gold Faction was at first just a few old diehards and then under Ayesha Ura became something of a minority opposition party for those opposed to the Bronze Faction's dominance of the Bureau of Destiny. Also, everything I've heard about the Gold Faction tends to go "They want the Solars back in charge to make things better again!... With appropriately closer oversight from their wise Viziers," which seems purposely meant to sound ominous. I guess that might just be the fanon "Sidereals can't be trusted" thing creeping in, or I'm just reading things into that that aren't there.

In addition, your belief that the way he laid things out is not "manipulating her" is laughable. "Are you sure you want to do this?" is a way of reaffirming belief as much as it is questioning it.

Click to shrink...

I'd say you have a point there... except Pyrrha was already strapped in the soul-merging machine when he said it. Pyrrha had no way to effectively back out by that point unless Ozpin allowed her to. Him giving her an out at that point serves literally no purpose unless he legitimately means it on some level, unless you think he just wants to convince himself that he's not manipulating her. Which... would actually be an interesting place to take that, come to think of it.

 

[Imrix]

In addition, your belief that the way he laid things out is not "manipulating her" is laughable. "Are you sure you want to do this?" is a way of reaffirming belief as much as it is questioning it. Presenting someone with a choice you've previously stacked is much more effective than demanding an ultimatum. Education itself is a way of teaching values and belief systems. Every time he spoke to the students about the value of friendship, of protecting the innocent, and other things like that, he was impressing his belief systems and his values - which support accepting the offer - on someone.

Click to shrink...

Saying "are you sure you want to do this?" and "it's dangerous; there's no shame in backing out" and "I cannot force you to do this; it's your choice to make" and "nobody will think any less of you for refusing" are among the best ways to sink someone into being even more determined to do it than ever, if said in the right way.

Click to shrink...

I mean, this is true...

... but do you really credit RWBY with understanding manipulation to this degree?