Having at last read this in its entirety: Seriously cool, easily grounds for an entire campaign, but given your stated opinions about the setting, I am somewhat surprised that there's so much mention of ancient First Age ruins, and nothing of the Shogunate.

There... isn't?

There's a plot hook of 100 golems, and the other points just generically refer to the First Age without specifying so that includes the Shogunate. If I meant otherwise, I'd be talking about the High First Age. Most of the ruins otherwise mentioned are Dragon King things, because come on, Dragon Kings, man. Aztec Dinosaurs go go go (and the area is part of their old holdings)
 
What's everybody's favorite spells in Exalted? Could be for mechanical reasons, but I'm mostly wondering about aesthetics and themes.

EDIT: If it's a custom one you or another came up with, that's okay too!
 
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Ah. I hadn't made that connection, largely because you've talked a lot about wanting to sharpen the distinctions between the First Age and the Shogunate era.

Mmm. Yeah, I tend to do that by specifying "High First Age" when talking about specifically Deliberative-era ruins, because I sort of go off the assumption that anything else had people still living in it so the High First Age became the Shogunate as they built new things, etc. So it's more that there's very little in Creation that's High First Age without also being Shogunate, because the Shogunate kept on living in High First Age cities.
 
Somehow, I knew that would be a popular one. Setting aside potential balance concerns for a moment, a thing I enjoy about summoning as a concept is how it feels faithful to a lot of real world mystical traditions that we take inspiration from when writing stuff. The scary sorcerer sucked the life out of his enemies with an evil spirit, or whispered to the spirits to make the air into a windy current to send the enemy ships off course and stuff. In a lot of fiction, the spirit that intercedes on behalf of the ritualist is abstracted such that the power can be seen almost as a superpower intrinsic to the character using it. That Exalted's sorcerers can use demons and the like as a way to express their power besides just casting spells themselves is kind of neat.

It reminds me of how I'm very excited for a one-shot my friend is going to run, where I'm going to be playing a heroic mortal priest who uses social influence, knowledge and ritual in a way that almost makes him seem like he has magic powers by invoking the strong relationships he has with local spirits. It should be fun.
 
Somehow, I knew that would be a popular one. Setting aside potential balance concerns for a moment, a thing I enjoy about summoning as a concept is how it feels faithful to a lot of real world mystical traditions that we take inspiration from when writing stuff. The scary sorcerer sucked the life out of his enemies with an evil spirit, or whispered to the spirits to make the air into a windy current to send the enemy ships off course and stuff. In a lot of fiction, the spirit that intercedes on behalf of the ritualist is abstracted such that the power can be seen almost as a superpower intrinsic to the character using it. That Exalted's sorcerers can use demons and the like as a way to express their power besides just casting spells themselves is kind of neat.

It reminds me of how I'm very excited for a one-shot my friend is going to run, where I'm going to be playing a heroic mortal priest who uses social influence, knowledge and ritual in a way that almost makes him seem like he has magic powers by invoking the strong relationships he has with local spirits. It should be fun.

Eh. When I said infinite utility, I wasn't kidding: pretty much every first circle demon is a servitor-bot created to do something specific, and given the immensity of Hell there should be a tool in there to accomplish basically any task that you can imagine having a servitor-bot accomplish, as long as you're fine with demon creepiness and alien thought patterns. Skin-hugging armour? Sure. Medical heal-bots? Easy. Genetic engineers? Okay. Dumb muscle? Plenty of options. Construction drones? Yep. Jetbikes? Got you covered.

It's the best 8XP you can spend in the game in terms of "this lets me do stuff I couldn't so conveniently do before".
 
I'm wondering if I shouldn't do a reworking of the Realm legions at some point.

Like, they're clearly supposed to be Roman Chinese, but I'm not sure them being roman-Chinese actually makes a great deal of sense given the social and political structure of the realm.
 
I'm wondering if I shouldn't do a reworking of the Realm legions at some point.

Like, they're clearly supposed to be Roman Chinese, but I'm not sure them being roman-Chinese actually makes a great deal of sense given the social and political structure of the realm.
That's because they're Roman-Chinese on the verge of collapse, and as such largely reflect those qualities that led those empires into decline and eventual collapse. The Realm acts in ways that are in direct opposition to many of the policies that made Rome and Imperial China strong during the times when they were successful, and only get away with in because it has a ruling class of superhumans. It is genuinely unfathomable to me why the Realm thinks its a good idea to all but ban mortals from learning Sorcery and thaumaturgy, and why there is an actual social stigma for being a Sorcerer among the Dragon-Blooded. You could kind of maybe justify the former as not wanted to hand out magic to people you can't effectively supervise without looking completely brain dead, but the latter? Sorcery is so useful, even if you know no summoning or combat spells, that it should be required for any Dragon-Blooded with Essence 3 to take the time to learn how to use it. Its utterly unfathomable.
 
That's because they're Roman-Chinese on the verge of collapse, and as such largely reflect those qualities that led those empires into decline and eventual collapse. The Realm acts in ways that are in direct opposition to many of the policies that made Rome and Imperial China strong during the times when they were successful, and only get away with in because it has a ruling class of superhumans. It is genuinely unfathomable to me why the Realm thinks its a good idea to all but ban mortals from learning Sorcery and thaumaturgy, and why there is an actual social stigma for being a Sorcerer among the Dragon-Blooded. You could kind of maybe justify the former as not wanted to hand out magic to people you can't effectively supervise without looking completely brain dead, but the latter? Sorcery is so useful, even if you know no summoning or combat spells, that it should be required for any Dragon-Blooded with Essence 3 to take the time to learn how to use it. Its utterly unfathomable.

Well, it's more that I don't feel like they've got the same social conventions at all.

Like, Rome and China already had very different social conventions, and then you add the dragon blooded, and it suddenly becomes very different again.
 
Like, Rome and China already had very different social conventions, and then you add the dragon blooded, and it suddenly becomes very different again.

Rome didn't had modern battle tanks* Dragon-blooded. I am pretty sure than their armies would have worked rather differently if the did.


*(That's an spurious comparison, of course. Dragon-blooded are a lot more powerful and convenient than tanks)
 
Rome didn't had modern battle tanks* Dragon-blooded. I am pretty sure than their armies would have worked rather differently if the did.

*(That's an spurious comparison, of course. Dragon-blooded are a lot more powerful and convenient than tanks)

Yeah.

The realm itself is also just gigantic. Like, the blessed isle alone has more area than the entire roman empire by a factor of about 2, if you use the 3e map measure website thing. It's almost as large as the USA.

Then you add all the tributaries, and the fact that the realm has this hugely different agricultural paradigm...
 
It is genuinely unfathomable to me why the Realm thinks its a good idea to all but ban mortals from learning Sorcery and thaumaturgy, and why there is an actual social stigma for being a Sorcerer among the Dragon-Blooded.

Sorry, reference on the former? Especially the thaumaturgy stuff, which is nonsense from a "Realm as Imperial China" thing. Because the Realm should be instead certifying and qualifying thaumaturges based on Imperial examinations and requiring you to sit exams on your knowledge of these practices. Yes, of course they'll ban things like the Art of Demon Summoning, but there's no way that they should be banning the Art of Husbandry or the Art of Weather Working.

Now, the sorcery stuff is perfectly sensible. Especially banning mortals from Sorcery, because mortal sorcerers are dangerous, destabilising, and are always a risk of them trying to summon a demon. But the thing about sorcery that the line makes very clear - and then failed to properly mechanise - is that sorcerers are, to a man or woman, more than a little weird. Even before you start anything, the Trials mean that the sorcerer has seen things and experienced things few others do, and they act... oddly. They did something like "stop loving someone because I was pining over them and it was getting in my way", or "getting rid of my bias against non-Dynasts".

But that's just the start of sorcerer weirdness. Because a lot of sorcerers are demonologists, and while a sorcerer who knows Infalliable Messenger, Stormwind Rider and Death of Obsidian Butterflies can be a respectable member of society who gets invited to parties, a sorcerer who knows Demon of the First Circle and flaunts their demons - as a looooooooooot of sorcerer-PCs do - is just a weirdo. Demons are demons. They're weird, scary, and theologically suspect. Sorcerers have to know about demons to safely summon them, and they basically need to know Old Realm so they can always talk to their demons and understand things they're saying.

Which means that every sorcerer who's summoned demons has heard theologically suspect things from them, like them claiming that the demons made the world, not the Elemental Dragons. Hey, turns out a social-specced 1CD can actually be pretty damn persuasive, especially if the sorcerer isn't built for Integrity. That's something to worry about. It starts with thinking demons are people, and ends with you deliberately releasing demons from Hell because they've been playing your Compassion.

(And that's before you get into the stereotype that sorcerers are a bunch of perverts who get up to things with neomah. Which is, unfortunately, a quite well grounded stereotype)
 
The realm itself is also just gigantic. Like, the blessed isle alone has more area than the entire roman empire by a factor of about 2, if you use the 3e map measure website thing. It's almost as large as the USA.

Honestly i always thought that, for the Realm, it would be a lot more convenient not to use legions at all. Ancient armies are sloooow.

(Instead, use stormwind rider to send an expeditionary force of dragonblooded officers, with maybe a few hundred elite troops as support, then recruit and train an army of auxiliaries in-site. With charms to speed the training up, the process is a lot faster than moving an army for thousand of miles).
 
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Honestly i always thought that, for the Realm, it would be a lot more convenient not to use legions at all. Ancient armies are sloooow.

(Instead, use stormwind rider to send an expeditionary force of dragonblooded officers, with maybe a few hundred elite troops as support, then recruit and train an army of auxiliaries in-site. With charms to speed the training up, the process is a lot faster than moving an army for thousand of miles).

If they call them legions, I figure they'd be mostly just "this is the organization we organize people into when we raise them locally with our great pools of wealth and our social charms."

I dunno. I do figure there would be armies of realm people raised and deployed. Like, I'm assuming that Exalted has ship building technology equal to the Ming, plus a degree of weather control, so it's not impossible, but I think the realms army would be a lot more Persian than Roman, or like, Persian + East India Company. Dragon Blooded officers presiding over vast numbers of diverse warriors from different subject people and communities, each fighting in their own particular style, possibly with an emphasis on cavalry or chariots (like, maybe specially built chariots that can survive a dragon blooded anima), with most infantry fighting as battlefield castles to support the cavalry/chariots/dragon blooded hero squads.
 
Sorry, reference on the former? Especially the thaumaturgy stuff, which is nonsense from a "Realm as Imperial China" thing. Because the Realm should be instead certifying and qualifying thaumaturges based on Imperial examinations and requiring you to sit exams on your knowledge of these practices. Yes, of course they'll ban things like the Art of Demon Summoning, but there's no way that they should be banning the Art of Husbandry or the Art of Weather Working.

Yeah, i don't know where that did come from.


COCD:1 The Blessed isle said:
OFFICIAL THAUMATURGES
Thaumaturges who wish to delve deeper into the secrets
of magic or to manufacture the most potent potions or
enchantments can do so only while working for one of the
Great Houses or the Thousand Scales. The government employs
thaumaturges skilled in alchemy to create and stockpile
medicines, and many dozens of thaumaturges who are adept
at weather working are employed by the Bureau of Climatic
Deliberations. In addition, the Heptagram teaches limited
amounts of thaumaturgy to its students, largely to help them
better understand the theory of magic. While mere mortals can
never become instructors at the Heptagram, the most skilled
thaumaturges can gain lucrative and prestigious positions as
adjunct teachers of the classes on thaumaturgy.

The books have always been clear that the Realm uses thaumaturgy extensively.
 
Sorry, reference on the former? Especially the thaumaturgy stuff, which is nonsense from a "Realm as Imperial China" thing. Because the Realm should be instead certifying and qualifying thaumaturges based on Imperial examinations and requiring you to sit exams on your knowledge of these practices. Yes, of course they'll ban things like the Art of Demon Summoning, but there's no way that they should be banning the Art of Husbandry or the Art of Weather Working.
They do do this, which is why I said "all but ban," but you don't have to outlaw something to put it out of reach of people you don't want to have it.

From Oadenol's Codex, p. 121, under "Thaumaturgy in the Realm":

In brief, the Realm demands that would-be thaumaturges pay for a license and study from state-approved teachers and texts. The program of instruction takes five years and is not cheap, but it turns out competent magicians and savants (minimum Occult 3, Lore 2, and an Initiate Degree in at least one Art is required to pass).

So in the Realm, after paying the fees for the instruction program and spending five years of rigorous study, and paying the fees for the license once they're studies are complete, mortals can totally become thaumaturges.

However, it is also possible for someone with an instruction manual and Occult 1 to get an Initiate's Degree in an Art after a month of study, a week if they're a heroic mortal with Occult favored. So not only is the Realm's certification process for mortal thaumaturges expensive, it also takes about x75 as long to complete than picking up a copy of Thaumaturgy For Dummies, which means it is far from widely accessible, which means it won't see anything close to universal use across the Realm's infrastructure, which it could have.
 
However, it is also possible for someone with an instruction manual and Occult 1 to get an Initiate's Degree in an Art after a month of study, a week if they're a heroic mortal with Occult favored. So not only is the Realm's certification process for mortal thaumaturges expensive, it also takes about x75 as long to complete than picking up a copy of Thaumaturgy For Dummies, which means it is far from widely accessible, which means it won't see anything close to universal use across the Realm's infrastructure, which it could have.
I could technically become a lawyer after the next three days because I would fulfill minimum qualifications (bachelor's degree in jurisprudence), but I'm still going to continue studying for two years (candidate in jurisprudence) more because, hey it turns out that knowing your shit very comprehensively is a good idea. Your hedge magician, knows demons exist and a bit on how to call them, meanwhile the Realm's trained thaumaturge will know what demons are, several breeds and species, how they function, how to call them, their weaknesses and strengths, as well as mathematics, geometry and several other very convenient things to know, in addition to having an Initiate's Degree.

Well, he doesn't because the Realm wouldn't want to teach mortals to summon demons, but you get my point.
 
I could technically become a lawyer after the next three days because I would fulfill minimum qualifications (bachelor's degree in jurisprudence), but I'm still going to continue studying for two years (candidate in jurisprudence) more because, hey it turns out that knowing your shit very comprehensively is a good idea. Your hedge magician, knows demons exist and a bit on how to call them, meanwhile the Realm's trained thaumaturge will know what demons are, several breeds and species, how they function, how to call them, their weaknesses and strengths, as well as mathematics, geometry and several other very convenient things to know, in addition to having an Initiate's Degree.

Well, he doesn't because the Realm wouldn't want to teach mortals to summon demons, but you get my point.
Sure, but with five years you could have someone guide you through the Essence Enlightening Sutra and become an enlightened mortal instead, which has several inherent benefits even if you don't have Charms or artifacts to otherwise use your Essence pool, and overall allows you to do much more than an Initiate Degree.
 
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So in the Realm, after paying the fees for the instruction program and spending five years of rigorous study, and paying the fees for the license once they're studies are complete, mortals can totally become thaumaturges.

However, it is also possible for someone with an instruction manual and Occult 1 to get an Initiate's Degree in an Art after a month of study, a week if they're a heroic mortal with Occult favored. So not only is the Realm's certification process for mortal thaumaturges expensive, it also takes about x75 as long to complete than picking up a copy of Thaumaturgy For Dummies, which means it is far from widely accessible, which means it won't see anything close to universal use across the Realm's infrastructure, which it could have.

Ah, see, your mistake here is assuming that the training times listed are empirical setting fact, rather than a convenient thing for PCs.

I reject that assumption. Yes, it does in fact sound pretty fair that it takes 5 years of intensive study to become a practicing thaumaturge to the standard the Realm demands to operate legally. You have to learn the law for what you do, the theory behind it, you need time spend as an apprentice to a qualified master to tell that you can operate professionally on your own, and you need to pass the exams. It's akin to a professional qualification in real life, and you'll be laughed at by engineers if you tell them that they can qualify for it in a month, or a week if they have real talent.

Likewise, I think most tribal shamans, for example, have spent years learning from their own master and studying the ways of the spirits and making offerings and going on vision quests to commune with the spirits and learning to tolerate pain from when a bad tempered spirit might try to hurt you to make you give up, etc, and that they have in fact put in similar amounts of effort to a Realm-trained academic thaumaturge.

Basically, yes, your Exalt might learn that fast. That's because they're a special snowflake. Most people are not special snowflakes, and so require years of study and memorising and practicing tens of ritual before they're a qualified thaumaturgical initiate.
 
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I think the biggest difference between realm forces and those of say, Rome (I'm actually not that familiar with how Chinese forces worked) would be the depiction of glory.

For a realm mortal, glory is not going to be pushing yourself to excellence, it's going to be who best follows the orders of your dragon blooded superiors. The tales of the realm are going to emphasis the bravery of a young hero in inspiring his fellow soldiers to hold against the swarming beast soldiers of an Anathema while the dragon princess who he is in a chaste kind of love with meditates to regain her essence after defeating an enemy champion. The climax of the poem would see him heroically fall to hold the line, just in time for the princess to return and drive back the attack with her fury, with the implication his soul would be reincarnated as her child, a hero for the next generation.

Realm citizens won't regard themselves as uncivilized or blood happy the way the Roman's did, nor will they regard their arrays as proving the individual metal of the participants as part of a mass in the way of the Greeks. Instead it's going to be about discipline and obedience. About the facilitation of dragon blooded heroes. Manhood (or womanhood, perhaps adulthood) will be defined by one's putting aside of a childish desire for individual glory and giving yourself to the orders of your superiors. This will probably also include customs by which when a dragon blooded wins particular glory in battle, she gifts the units under her command with half of her reward, the collective division of booty, and so on.

On the battlefield, the realm will deploy blocks of heavily armoured spear and crossbow troops, castles for the dragon blooded officers to withdraw too at low essence, from which they sally out as individuals or sworn brotherhoods, or occasionally with elite troops or bodyguards to attack the enemy, seeking personal combats with enemy champions, and striking enemy formations with their charms. This might not apply to patrician cavalry, as the dragon blooded don't do cavalry as much, so there's probably some fairly proficient mortal cavalry filling the gap.

Sorry, reference on the former? Especially the thaumaturgy stuff, which is nonsense from a "Realm as Imperial China" thing. Because the Realm should be instead certifying and qualifying thaumaturges based on Imperial examinations and requiring you to sit exams on your knowledge of these practices. Yes, of course they'll ban things like the Art of Demon Summoning, but there's no way that they should be banning the Art of Husbandry or the Art of Weather Working.)

The realm isn't going to look like imperial China on account of the military being in charge. It's a state ruled by a class of hereditary warrior aristocrats. That's very different from China.

I actually think Lookshy, or the Scavenger Lands in general would look a lot more Chinese, despite having a Japanese aesthetic, because they do have a class of scholar gentry, who in many cases probably do undergo official certification. They'd then be the ones in charge of doing stuff with first age technology, because there aren't enough dragon blooded to do it.

My take on the blessed isle is that the Scarlet Empress didn't want to put up with such a class of mortals, because they were one of the primary causes of all the instability of the shogunate. Any dragon blooded who wanted to go against the system could find a ready power base in the grievances of the scholar, technician and essence using or essence armor equipped mortal warriors. The Empress to me seems like someone vastly concerned with her own survival and destiny, so she probably just decided that rather than trying to maintain a huge number of powerful mortals, she wouldn't.

Of course, there would still be imperial thaumaturges, but a likely a lot less, as a percentage, than lookshy.
 

Magic with the thematics and aesthetics of technology. Tends to require fuel and maintenance, unlike most magic.

I don't much like your proposed definition; there's undoubtedly all sorts of minor magitech that's very make-able and maintainable in the Second Age. And I don't think it makes much sense to call something with no technological elements magitech just because it's really hard to keep working.
 
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