For someone who wants to get into Sidereals, what would y'all recommend I take a look at and which bits should I ignore?

Instead of reading Manual of Exalted Power: Sidereals, you will probably want to read Exalted: The Sidereals from First Edition instead, which has a better idea of how Astrology looks, a better idea how Charms should look and an overall higher quality.

Sidereals are still infinitely broken, but at least they aren't 2e Sidereals. :V

Oh right, and this thread has various ideas that would restrict Sidereals from having infinite access to the flying, invisible death-fortress Yu-Shan, which I recommend using to somewhat unfuck them.
 
That is really good. you should thread Mark it so it doesn't get lost
no

he should put it in his index post

so I can delete the threadmark and clean them up because there's over 40 already, and I already skip over every single ES_Corp ghost and demon writeup because he's already collating them so that's only half the bloat that it could have been
 
Instead of reading Manual of Exalted Power: Sidereals, you will probably want to read Exalted: The Sidereals from First Edition instead, which has a better idea of how Astrology looks, a better idea how Charms should look and an overall higher quality.

Sidereals are still infinitely broken, but at least they aren't 2e Sidereals. :V

Oh right, and this thread has various ideas that would restrict Sidereals from having infinite access to the flying, invisible death-fortress Yu-Shan, which I recommend using to somewhat unfuck them.

Thank you for responding.

I dunno about restricting Yu-Shan access though, from @EarthScorpion's portrayal of Infernals as nega-Sidereals, I don't really see much of a difference between Yu-Shan and Hell in terms of the roles they play? I'm sure I will be educated at length on the depths of my folly.
 
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Thank you for responding.

I dunno about restricting Yu-Shan access though, from @EarthScorpion's portrayal of Infernal's as nega-Sidereals, I don't really see much of a difference between Yu-Shan and Hell in terms of the roles they play? I'm sure I will be educated at length on the depths of my folly.

Heaven can actively effect change on creation, and rather then waiting 5 days between each plane of existence, Heaven can actually be used as a logistical shortcut to move things from one side of creation to the other far quicker then otherwise possible.

More importantly its a mostly secure base of operations that doesn't have the Yozi annihilating vast parts of it seemingly at random.
 

Powerbases that are largely impervious to outside and contain immense amounts of resources.
Heaven can actually be used as a logistical shortcut to move things from one side of creation to the other far quicker then otherwise possible.

Eh. I've always had the impression that Sidereals kinda need that rapid transit to deal with their jobs, given that they have to be shooting fires across Creation while being drastically outnumber by their enemies.

More importantly its a mostly secure base of operations that doesn't have the Yozi annihilating vast parts of it seemingly at random.

There certainly exist safe places in Malfeas, mainly in the domains of Second and Third Circle Demons.

Heaven can actively effect change on creation, and rather then waiting 5 days between each plane of existence,


It doesn't really help because they're pretty much in 24/7 triage and they have better things to do than exert that power in ways that disrupt stable power structures, which I thought was the major concern.
 
I dunno about restricting Yu-Shan access though, from @EarthScorpion's portrayal of Infernals as nega-Sidereals, I don't really see much of a difference between Yu-Shan and Hell in terms of the roles they play? I'm sure I will be educated at length on the depths of my folly.

There's actually a really appropriate metaphor for the different ways that Sidereals and Infernals have to interact with Creation.

Sidereals are FBI Agents. They have easy access to all of Creation (thanks to the Yu Shan gates and the Calibration gate), they have status and authority to act in the local spirit courts (even if the local corrupt cops hate them), and they can requisition assets to help them (even if they'll get bureaucratically obstructed if no one likes them).

By contrast, Infernals are Russian spies. There are not very many routes from Hell into Creation that come out reliably in certain places, and it's a long and not-entirely-safe journey to and from across Cecelyne whenever they try. In some areas they'll have existing contacts and networks serving the glorious cause of Com... the Yozis, but it's hostile territory. An Infernal cannot easily go back to their "nation" and cannot infiltrate large amounts of resources in. An Infernal needs to build up their own local networks and develop their own assets loyal to them to operate optimally. Infernals cannot bring the full glorious forces of the So... demons to bear inside Creation, even though they can - via demon summoning - get high value assets and specialists into the enemy country.
 
There's actually a really appropriate metaphor for the different ways that Sidereals and Infernals have to interact with Creation.

Sidereals are FBI Agents. They have easy access to all of Creation (thanks to the Yu Shan gates and the Calibration gate), they have status and authority to act in the local spirit courts (even if the local corrupt cops hate them), and they can requisition assets to help them (even if they'll get bureaucratically obstructed if no one likes them).

By contrast, Infernals are Russian spies. There are not very many routes from Hell into Creation that come out reliably in certain places, and it's a long and not-entirely-safe journey to and from across Cecelyne whenever they try. In some areas they'll have existing contacts and networks serving the glorious cause of Com... the Yozis, but it's hostile territory. An Infernal cannot easily go back to their "nation" and cannot infiltrate large amounts of resources in. An Infernal needs to build up their own local networks and develop their own assets loyal to them to operate optimally. Infernals cannot bring the full glorious forces of the So... demons to bear inside Creation, even though they can - via demon summoning - get high value assets and specialists into the enemy country.

Well yeah, I've always had the impression that being a Sidereal was basically about being a hybrid of an Imperial Chinese bureaucrat-officer and a government agent.

Infernals are tasked with building a powerbase, like most Solaroids, thus is makes sense that Hell's projection of force is limited otherwise there'd be no point in the Infernals.

Sidereals though? They're agents of the government. It only makes sense they have access to overwhelming resources and force because that's how governments work. The struggle is bringing that force to bear through whatever procedural stuff you need to get through.

That's why I don't understand why people would want to restrict Sidereal access to Yu-Shan.
 
I've been thinking about the Dreaming Sea a bit while trying and failing to sleep, and I thought that I'd get some of it out of my head.

There are three main powers in the Dreaming Sea; Ysyr, Volivat, and Prasad. Each is militarily very different, despite their shared region. Prasad favors a traditional dragon-blooded style of warfare, with well-disciplined troops, less disciplined vassal levies, and a number of extremely powerful heroes, each Dragon-blooded. Volivat on the other hand has a massive core of transhuman soldiers, each ten times better than an equivalent soldier (this amounts to having an average of 4 in Attributes, ranging between six and two). Additionally, Volivati ten-fathered have a much easier time finding enlightenment in Styles* than a normal human. Admittedly, this amounts to one in one hundred rather than one in one thousand, but it's still impressive. However, despite these advantages they are only about equal with Prasad.

Ysyr on the other hand is much more interesting. The island-continent that it sits on has heavily mutative properties, due to a combination of First Age sorcery and Wyld taint. This means that in the core, each Ysyri soldier is highly unique, preventing uniformity and hampering discipline. This means that a Ysyri army often functions more similarly to a mob of rabble than a proper army. How then, do they manage to be a great power of the Dreaming Sea? It's simple; they have a lot of sorcerers. These sorcerers bind or treat with demons, dead, fae, and elementals, adding large numbers of them to their armies. A typical battle with the Ysyri begins with a large number of powerful spells, bound Behemoths, and other trump cards being played in an attempt to break the enemy formation, followed by the powerful mutants of the armies destroying the enemy. Their vassal levies on the other hand are typically used to hold the center while the horde of mutants takes the sides, as they have actual training and discipline.

Ysyr itself is ruled by Sorcerers in a thaumatocracy. In theory, every being capable of Sorcery has a single vote in the senate of Ysyr so long as they have performed a certain number of acts in support of the city within recent memory. This can be either a single large act, or a number of smaller ones. Needless to say, who gets a vote is a matter of much debate. In addition to the Sorcerers who have gained their power through the mutative properties of Ysyr, the Ysyri welcome Sorcerers, including Lunars, demons, and Dragon-blooded to their city, though their loyalty is considered to be in question until they've done quite a lot to prove it. Powerful beings that do not know sorcery are allowed to visit, and are given respect, but are never allowed to vote.

Ysyri sorcerers are split into three schools of sorcery. Though they will all gladly use the tools of each school, the debates over which method should be primary is a matter of bloody intrigue. These schools are the Citizens, who focus on using their power over the empire to work magic, the Artisans, who work magic through their wonders of craftsmanship, and the Binders, who bind and treat with spirits of all stripes for power. The Binders generally focus on the Raksha, due to their location, but are willing to work with any kind of spirit if it will give them the power that they desire.

Each sorcerer-king is exceedingly long lived, though not immortal, due to the spells that they work on themselves. They are also almost all great beauties due to their sorcery eliminating their other mutations, though some favor function over form, or have strange ideas of what form entails. They surround themselves with serfs who have been made beautiful through sorcery. Most elite among these are the Emerald Guard, human soldiers who have been given great individual power by sorcery, each a wonder of magical might and sworn to the sorcerer that raised them up. They are almost all originally human, as having a non-human on your guard is considered to be quite gauche.

Hara Bi is the Southwestern god of war, iron, and combat against fae. She is deeply enamored with Ysyr because of their constant wars with the fae, and because their use of bound fae in battle is considered to be under her domains. She will often fight alongside Ysyri forces when they raid the Fair Folk, as the normal rules on divine intervention are loosened when it comes to creatures that are Outside Fate. She has yet to face consequences for this, though the Bronze Faction was keeping close watch for any improprieties that they could use to remove her, at least until the current crisis.

*Normal mortals can gain Charms from their Styles. These charms are spirit charms, and are generally pretty weak compared to Exalted charms.
 
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Okay, so it's an orbital laser that doesn't matter to people playing optimal murderhobos, but trashes stories for people engaging with the world. Why is that a dynamic that should exist?

Because it's not?

Shun the Smiling Lady got errated. Aside from being able to pay Willpower to resist its effects, it got both the Touch and Emotion keywords applied.
 
The problem with Yu-shan is that is a continent full of resources that is completely disconected from Creation and can't be sabotaged or undermined.

Like, a lot have been written here about how Elders should derive their power from their manses and infraestructure, so that they can be potentially deprived of it by attrition, but Yu-shan laughs in the face of that.

The As-above-so-below fate-manipulation fuck you powers are just the cherry on top.
 
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Now I'm far from experienced in this setting, but there seem to already be limits and obsticals inherent to gathering power and developing infrastructure in Yu-shan. The corrupt bureacracy and prevalent faction politics should fill this roll. Sidereal arn't God Kings, they are government employees. The consequences of putting off there duties in order to hide in heaven and drop rocks on there problems should force and end to this kind of behavior.
 
The problem with Yu-shan is that is a continent full of resources that is completely disconected from Creation and can't be sabotaged or undermined.

"Can't be sabotaged or undermined"? I suppose. If you consider "not freely available for us in Creation at all" to be true. Recall that Yu Shan does not have enough resources to maintain its own population of gods because there are so many who have lost their purviews over the years that entire country sized districts are made of unemployed gods.

A Sidereal pulling resources out of Yu Shan is like a Dragonblooded pulling resources off the Blessed Isle in that both are not conveniently targetable by most PCs except the Sidereal is going to have to go through bureaucratic hell trying to justify his expense reports and has access to less of his supposed resource base than the Dragonblooded does.

If you are doing official work for Heaven with all of their blessing and support Yu Shan is an insanely powerful resource. It's the "with all of their blessing and support" that is the problem. Always keep in mind that the primary antagonists in a Sidereals game will be other Sidereals and that they don't want you to succeed.
 
Now I'm far from experienced in this setting, but there seem to already be limits and obsticals inherent to gathering power and developing infrastructure in Yu-shan. The corrupt bureacracy and prevalent faction politics should fill this roll. Sidereal arn't God Kings, they are government employees. The consequences of putting off there duties in order to hide in heaven and drop rocks on there problems should force and end to this kind of behavior.

Like with a lot of Exalted, the problem is both 'objective' in that yes there are elements that prevent healthy gameplay or modelling of behaviors. The other problem which is more relevant to say, Yu-Shan, Sidereals and the Wyld Hunt, is Conveyance.

The game does a poor job of conveying the idea that all of these variables are meant to be adjusted for a given game, not the setting as a whole. We as a fanbase have thuroughly deconstructed the game into a kind of 'if/then' logical engine. 'if Sidereals can do tihs, they should do this, and since they do do this, the results are as follows'.

This is why you get people claiming (not incorrectly) that it's possible to drop Shun the Smiling Lady on someone and then retreat cackling to your fortress manse in Heaven. In practice this doesn't happen that much- mostly due to a social contract between ST and players to not be a dick, but even then, I've never heard of that being used against PCs in actual play.

For good or ill, we have to remember that the books were not written under the assumption of 'ST is going to stat out NPCs using PC charms'. We totally do because this is a perfectly reasonable approach to running the game, but it wasn't designed for it.
 
For good or ill, we have to remember that the books were not written under the assumption of 'ST is going to stat out NPCs using PC charms'. We totally do because this is a perfectly reasonable approach to running the game, but it wasn't designed for it.
Uh... If that wasn't the assumption the books were written under, why do the NPC write-ups in the first two editions all use "PC charms" as much as possible?
 
Because the NPC write ups have always been useless garbage.
There's a difference between cherry-picking the good bits from the books and denying that something is there.

The NPCs in the core books were written using charms from the core books, which seems like pretty clear evidence that the charms in the books aren't solely meant for PC use. The total lack of "NPC charm" guidelines outside of spirit charms also seems like clear evidence.
I mean, I'm working off the assumption that the rulebook shows how you are supposed to do things. I'm not sure how else you're supposed to divine design intent.

So, do you have any evidence - aside from your dislike of the NPC write ups - that they weren't following the intended design of the system?
 
Because "hit him with Shun The Smiling Lady and hide in my invisible battle station until his everything is fucked" is not interesting story material.
That's more an issue with Shun the Smiling Lady and other SId killsat sillyness. For some reason people keep thinking uncounterable, infinite range killsat style charms are valid design space. They're not.
 
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