But according to @Broken25 I can't tell that story. There are probably something like 150 Million People in the East. What does my kingdom of 1 million souls in the far South matter compared to that enormity? Why should I be content to tell a story about the lives and loves of these people and the struggle between those who would control or destroy them when I should be focusing on those people who outnumber my pititful little corner of Creation by two orders of magnitude?

This is the exact same problem @Broken25 has between Creation and Malfeas.
The relevant difference, I think, is that Creation need not be described as a place that is constantly about to have everyone die unless you intervene Right Now.

I mean, it often is described this way! But the Thousand Doomy Dooms are critiqued for exactly that reason: that they make your story about your kingdom kinda meaningless, because who cared that you saved the people there when the First and Forsaken Lion rolls through the east with an army of ten million ghosts and murders everyone?

So you can safely say that you're fighting evils on your scale, and that there is no cosmic genocide that you're ignoring in order to do so. Unless Malfeas is huge - because Malfeas is a place of great murder and torment, kind of by necessity; its Doomy Dooms are, y'know, its primary inhabitants. And at that point, yeah, you are sort of playing with sandcastles in the middle of an abattoir - an abattoir that you created, at least in part, and that you could do something about, at least in part.

This isn't a moral concern that's going to bother everyone - obviously! But it doesn't seem weird that some people would parse the setting that way.
 
You asked me to write up Ululaya's Defining Soul.

I did so.

oh right i should get to posting this

Akarat, The Selfsame Argument
Indulgent Soul of Sanceline
Demon of The Second Circle

In the thirtyfourth layer of Malfeas, upon a great podium within an even greater amphitheater, stands a man and a woman who argue endlessly. The woman is clad in a blue tunic, decorated with hundreds of small strips and bands, that flow and drift in a breeze that never was. She wears her hair long and free and her voice is melodious and sounds like the cawing of eagles. She has no eyes, and instead there is a star plucked from the sky of Cecelyne in each empty cavity, with which she may determine the nature of a man and the value of his possessions. The man wears a red gown with no particular decorations, except for a pair of golden clasps that keep his cloak slung over his shoulders. His head is wrapped in red bandages and none has ever seen what lies behind them. With his right hand, he may remove what makes a man unique, and with his left hand, he may bestow this upon any one person he desires to bless.

These two are Akarat, who has argued with itself endlessly over the nature of free will. The woman postulates that all are bestowed with free will, and that one chooses to follow or lead, that anything is a choice and that those who are not free are the ones to be blamed, for they obviously did not use their free will anyways. The man counters with the proposal that all men and women are created equally, and that free will is a lie constructed by men who do not understand that they are mere tool created by higher beings. They have argued for countless generations, never reaching anything close to agreement, for they know that there is no acceptable compromise.

In the Demon Realm, it is Akarat that keeps the precious treasury of Sanceline, for their martyrs have given much wealth to the one who saved them from the tyranny of emotion and the blindness of passion. At the end of every Calibration, they test each other with lances of viridian flame, which they were once gifted by Ligier. In this contest, they prod and jab at each other, never stopping in their debate, for never once do they touch each other, instead the first to be interrupted in a sentence will have lost the duel and the winner shall administrate the treasury of the Iterative Choir for until the next duel. When the woman rules over the treasury, it prospers and grows, for she extorts the Serfs for every last bit of value, while under the man, it declines, for in his eye all are equal.

Sorcerers summon Akarat to ask questions regarding the nature of free will and how to circumvent it, for Akarat is a master manipulator with a tongue of silver. It is also summoned to make men unique or take away their individuality as well as determine the value of kings and queens. When a pair of scholars simultaneously die of natural causes in the middle of an argument, Akarat may appear in their stead to take up the argument and slowly twist it towards the nature of men and the purpose of will. The first time in a scene Akarat is prevented from arguing, it will take a point of Limit.
 
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... People actually think that? I mean, I wouldn't know either way, I'm well aware there's a lot of Exalted discussion I miss on places like the OPP boards, but you're railing against a problem that I have never really seen. Sometimes people join the conversation thinking the game is there for a shallow power fantasy, and they invariably meet a deluge of corrections.

I mean, I have some edge-case disagreements and I think taking a fairly humanocentric view of morality in Exalted is uncomfortable but not necessarily indefensible, but you seem to be railing at... I don't want to say a strawman, but rather something that's hidden from me by a wall?
I think it's implicit in statements like @Dif's about how Exalts literally matter more, about how Creation is just more important even if it's an insignificant speck, etc. It may not be what @Dif was meaning to say (though it was certainly part of my read of those posts), but I've definitely seen the same lines used to justify "So why the fuck should I care about what anyone who is Less Important wants" before.
 
I don't know if I agree with this,

I was running out of time so I truncated that because I meant to come back to it. But what I meant was that meaning comes from us.

Us the audience. The players.

Remember, there are no sentient beings in Creation or Malfeas. The characters and their travails in the story matter because they matter to those of us telling those stories.

The relevant difference, I think, is that Creation need not be described as a place that is constantly about to have everyone die unless you intervene Right Now.

The same is true of Malfeas. You can go millennia without ever once experiencing a layer smashing into another of Adorjan showing up or whatever. Octavian has ruled his quarter layer for centuries at the least with hints his empire stretches back to the High First Age. Nothing says any individual demon is in dire need of saving right now.
 
Only for those that aren't directly part of the soul structure of a Primordial. Second and Third Circle Demons can do whatever they want with blue, and it does mean anyone not of that level who wants to approach them can't look at her, or be legally subject to execution.

IIRC, those 1CDs who manage to become Citizens can also gaze upon it.
 
Isn't that highly fucking illegal under the laws of Cecelyne?

Yeah but given it also has a pair of stars literally taken from the Censor of Hell and can reliably get a bodyguard of luminous bodhisattvas, I don't think it cares very much. :V

Besides, it's only azure blue that Cecelyne forbids.

I was running out of time so I truncated that because I meant to come back to it. But what I meant was that meaning comes from us.

Us the audience. The players.

That makes more sense, this I agree with.
 
Hang out in Malfeas long enough to deflect a layer once, which at least 2e specifically permitted, and you've made more difference than fighting a direction-saving war.
Did you?
Because the Direction is going to stay saved when you eliminate the threat, but Malfeas is still going to smash his layers together.
 
Did you?
Because the Direction is going to stay saved when you eliminate the threat, but Malfeas is still going to smash his layers together.

In fact, deflecting a layer probably means it bounces off and goes and hits the layer on the other side. And then it just turns into a game of Malfeas-pong, where you earn points by inflicting megadeaths on your opponent (much like DEFCON). :p
 
Well when Isidoros pushes the layers apart, they do go careening to crash against another layer so yeah. IF you want to stop all layers crashing into each other, your going to need a lot of people spread throughout Malfeas to keep them from doing it...though then you just have to put up with the other atrocities and casual genocides that go on as the Yozi's move through Malfeas.
 
Did you?
Because the Direction is going to stay saved when you eliminate the threat, but Malfeas is still going to smash his layers together.
"Everyone dies of something eventually" does not counteract "I saved a bunch of people for now."

And fergoshsakes, guys, "Deflect a layer" is an easy shorthand. Pick any of a hundred ways to save an absurd number of demons from being mass-murdered. Does the position make so little sense that "But you'll need a Solar on every level!" seems like the operative problem with it?
 
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"Everyone dies of something eventually" does not counteract "I saved a bunch of people for now."

And fergoshsakes, guys, "Deflect a layer" is an easy shorthand. Pick any of a hundred ways to save an absurd number of demons from being mass-murdered. Does the position make so little sense that "But you'll need a Solar on every level!" seems like the operative problem with it?
My point isn't "everyone dies eventually", my point is that every Yozi-caused disaster in Malfeas will keep happening. Adorjan won't stop being murderwind. Kimbery won't stop flooding layers. Malfeas won't stop smashing shit. Isidoros won't stop running around being Isidoros.
Any action taken to save the inhabitants of Malfeas from the Yozi is like footprints in the sand during high tide - you know, when the waves go over your footprint, and someone who walks by a minute later will see no sign you were ever there?

At least in Creation, the difference I make lasts, and actually makes a difference.
 
right

take two :V

Mazscyllic, Archoness of the Cascade
Demon of the Third Circle
Fetich Soul of the Sea that Marched Against the Flame


The jagged horizon darkens, crackling with electrical arcs, and serfs cower in fear. They scurry for secreted keepsakes or meager, scavenged, protections, pre-emptively pounding on the holdfasts of their lords and ladies or making for hidden boltholes bored in Malfeas's rocky tissue. Yet soon they shall be kneeling in the streets of Malfeas. Knees sunk in the gritty, black sand of the Demon City's sundered shores. Heads bowed; feeling the warm, briny rain play over their shoulders. Witnesses to the glory that is Mazscyllic, the heart of Mother Kimbery.

She travels wrapped in a maelstrom. Thunderous cataracts coursing down from the tainted heavens. Salt springs bursting from black basalt cliffs. Anywhere from three to threescore of the mighty rivers coil about her at all times, waxing and waning proportionate to her strength. Within the banks of gentle mist her armada sails. Mantled in perpetual rain. Guarded by rumbling clouds. So great is her magnanimity that she will allow her breath to grace the brows of Malfeas's slaves. Tenderly caressing the scuttling, heavy masses with the kiss of acid rain for she is storm and woman both. In the eye of her hurricane-self she holds court. Aboard a hundred-decked palace-ship towed by six reptilian leviathans drawn from the vastness of Kimbery's body and escorted by an armada to dwarf even the naval ambitions of the Realm.

Mazscyllic appears as a slight, willowy woman from the distant West (or so it is said). Her body is ever draped in bone-pale and deep-green silks. Gentle canopies of the softest fabrics, a peaked cap spreading a gauzy veil before her face. The front weighted with delicate bone chimes. Little can be seen of the body beneath. Only her nails tipped with claws of black jade; etched in green and banded with gold. Only her eyes, a quartet of searing suns that not even the demure screen may stifle or diffuse. But when she speaks she does so with clarity and grace. With kind words and gentle poise. Those who supplicate themselves before her feel uplifted by her mere proximity. Safeguarded by her strength. She is the wise, disciplined matriarch; firm in her resolve. The guiding, nurturing, mother; tender in her care. And she is the carefree, careless maiden; beautiful in her disdain.

And she is wretched. Callous. Cruel. Pathetic.

Once, when Creation was young, Kimbery was a boundless; joyous thing. She flowed as she willed and created as she desired. She played the divine games of the Primordials as it suited her but even in that act of conformity she paid her elders and her superiors little respect and less heed. See a noble girl in the Imperial City, how she flits from favorite to favorite; entertaining her passing fancies. See the village beauty in the town square, of your life and yet beyond it. So lovely that she burns to hold and breaks you when she is gone but there is a sweetness to your pain. Know her and you have known Kimbery as she was then. Know her and you have known Kimbery's heart.

Complaints were made, among her brethren and her betters. The divine mechanisms were threatened. The underpinnings nudged askew. Ill will bubbled beneath the surface. And Cytherea, Lost Cytherea, like numberless mothers since took her flighty daughter in hand and vented upon her a mother's shame and a matriarch's slow, smouldering rage. Upon her, Cytherea impressed five truths. Writing them in fire until they were learned. Until they were understood. Until they were consumed and integrated and regurgitated back to taste. Twisted and stitched into every fiber of the wayward Primordial's being. Other titans watched and said nothing. Others never noticed, entranced in their Games. Perhaps it was asked, in those dawntimes, by some curious second soul "why have the seas gone still?" but if it was nothing ever came from it. For the truth was few knew or cared to know. Satisfied only to be troubled no longer.

Beneath her veil Mazscyllic is scarred. A blotchy, ugly burn spreading from collarbone to temple and spilling across half her face. She is no longer the girl she once was. She has learned her lessons well and disdains the joy she once found in her youth for she knows the proper way of things: she is not worthy of love. She does not deserve affection. Existence holds no succor for such a miserable, mewling thing as her. She is hated and such is her due. A mother's doll, to be dressed up and discarded as a mother wills.

Mazscyllic's cruelty is the cruelty of a beaten dog, a whipped cur. Low and snapping and bitter. Every day she sits on her magnificent throne, her hands and feet soaking in glass basins of pure, clean water. Leeching the toxins from her skin. A half-hearted denial of her nature. And yet every other day she rises to ingrain her lessons on some petitioner or vexing prince, lashing out with a martial artist's skill. With her smoking left hand she strikes. With her billowing right she smites. With her Steaming right foot she kicks. With her smouldering left she stomps. And with her lips she graces you one small moment of merciless kindness and leaves you broken and wretched. Other times a black mood takes her and she rampages about her ship, twisting and maiming her handmaidens and handsome servants. Sending the fleet-footed ones running for cover. Yet other times she slouches on her throne and speaks cutting words. Drawing forth a supplicant's most tender fears and greatest shames, bringing them out to be mocked by her court. It heartens her to see other things suffer so. To know that even as low as she is she is not alone in this cruel, ugly world.

Notes and Abilities: In the First Age Mazscyllic was summoned as a terraforming tool for expanding and shaping bodies of salt water. Altering the currents within and etching the coastlines with her churning, coiling storm-self. She at once resented and welcomed such menial drudgery. An Archoness was above such things. The broken, crawling heart of Kimbery was not. Such tension gave her pleasure. Mazscyllic may escape Hell when a mother of noble birth strikes her daughter with witnesses and yet the crowd turns away without a word. She will appear as a towering monster swathed in silk, her true form hidden beneath the wraps. With her hands she will burn the mother and take from her her beauty, her confidence, and her station and leave her to a lingering death by poison. Daughters so confronted must always bow and be polite and never look the beast in the unshrouded face lest they be seized as well.

Mazscyllic and the All-Thing: The Archoness of the Cascade did not join the Yozi's great conspiracy to aid her brethren, in truth it gratifies her to see all the ones who once neglected Mother Kimbery brought so low. Humiliated so thoroughly. No, her interest was in the potential for Solar servants. The notion of the once god-kings brought low, faces ground in the muck of their failures pleases her and she yearns to teach them their true worth. As a patron she is powerful and commands many legions; her graciousness is not always feigned and she is often willing to reward those who strike blows against her hated brother and competitor for Kimbery's conscience.

Yet she is also fickle and often faithless. Any Infernal servants must know to carefully monitor her moods and indulge her outbursts, to bear her scathing humiliations and endure her mean-spirited "games", lest they be cast to the leviathans or otherwise fall from her favor.





Kairibus, the Enfant Pearl
Demon of the Second Circle
Expressive Soul of the Archoness of the Cascade


In the depths of Mazscyllic's floating palace lays her own heart. Her child, conceived of spite and born of hate, nurtured out of broken, twisted love it is, nonetheless, a beautiful thing. An infant the size of a yeddim calf with a skin of living pearl and sinews of mollusk-meat. An enormous emerald sits in his brow, glinting and glowing, even as his four eyes are often scrunched shut in plaintive sobs. He demands attention from his deafened, stooped caretakers and swats them with sledgehammer fists when they do not respond or respond incorrectly to his arcane demands. He demands constant feeding, care, and companionship. He is swaddled in silks and shits on sheets that would bankrupt a mortal kingdom and yet he ever demands more.

It is not the result of an innate intellectual deficiency; the Enfant Pearl is as aware as any Citizen of Hell (and likely smarter than a few). Rather it is the result of carefully learned helplessness. He has never walked farther than the few paces required to cross his play-room and nursery. Anything he has ever wanted he has only had to squall loud enough and it will be brought in short order, no matter the expense or difficulty involved. He administers lands and commands armies as any proper Citizen should (for Mazscyllic's son will be a great warlord, to rival even Octavian) and yet it is in name only. His mother handles all the messy details and difficult problems. His pearl hands remain unblemished and unmarred. The birthright of those who do not toil and do not fight.

Indolent, arrogant, and wrathful Kairibus is not to be underestimated. He is as spiteful as his mother and as fickle as Mother Kimbery and he has never known a world outside the arms of either. This has left him dangerously unhinged and almost solipsistic in his opinion of himself. Outside his doting, ever-loving mother, and the world-sea from which he is descended, nothing else is quite real to him. Through his servants he plays his games across Malfeas. Fouling plans and sowing strife for no other reason than he can and they likely deserved it for shaming his Mother. If they succeed he is delighted. If they fail he cares little for the Fetich of a Yozi shields him from all retribution or consequence.

Notes and Abilities: Kairibus has never been summoned into Creation and his mother, the Archoness of the Cascade, has gone to tremendous lengths to ensure that no writs for summoning or binding exist. Scribes have been assassinated, sorcerers drowned, all for the explicit goal of preserving her most precious of treasures. In truth, despite Mazscyllic's protests to the contrary, there are few direct reasons any sorcerer would care to summon Kairibus. His innate talents have been long neglected and his magical abilities (the creation of sea-winds and weather storms) keys entirely off his mother's presence and guidance. Rather, his value lies in his position and in that sense his worth is incalculable. Mazscyllic would do anything to see him returned safely. Wage war against ostensible allies, hurl herself against Heaven, or drag entire nations beneath the roaring sea. But such an arrangement is inherently unstable and the Archoness is not to be trifled with.

Kairibus cries with a voice like the boom of waves crashing against a shore. Loud enough to rattle teeth and shiver stone. He gains Limit for every minute his cries go unanswered.
 
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My point isn't "everyone dies eventually", my point is that every Yozi-caused disaster in Malfeas will keep happening. Adorjan won't stop being murderwind. Kimbery won't stop flooding layers. Malfeas won't stop smashing shit. Isidoros won't stop running around being Isidoros.
Any action taken to save the inhabitants of Malfeas from the Yozi is like footprints in the sand during high tide - you know, when the waves go over your footprint, and someone who walks by a minute later will see no sign you were ever there?

At least in Creation, the difference I make lasts, and actually makes a difference.
I mean, not to be trite, but: there's always an ending. Mortals in Creation are going to keep killing each other in stupid little wars, too. We can quibble over frequency, but...

... well, speaking of seashores, you know the old saw about the guy throwing starfish back and saying "It matters to that one?" Maybe you can't stop Adorjan from being Adorjan - but the difference you make might matter to that one hundred billion.

If Malfeas is as stupidly huge as is sometimes portrayed. If not - if what you want is to make Creation the place where your decisions make a difference - then it seems like not a terrible idea to scale it back.

I mean - look, I don't know how much I actually care about this debate, but it's not a weird or self-contradictory position. It may be a different value weighting of a couple of things, but it's a comprehensible value weighting, and it does really unfortunate things to the relative importance of Creation. That seems not-optimal - not unless there's something we need Giant Malfeas for, that Still Really Big But Maybe Not Literally A Dyson Sphere Malfeas can't do.
 
My view's pretty simple: If Malfeas is treated as a literal Dyson Sphere, there are more demons in Malfeas than insects in Creation. Much like how the setting looks a bit stupid if there are uncounted trillions of Solar Exalt tier fairies out in the Wyld, if Malfeas is that much larger in scope than Creation, Yu-Shan or the Underworld, none of these places look like they matter to the setting at large.

Hell can be big, and should be, but not a Dyson Sphere. A Culture Orbital's fine.
 
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If you ask me, the appropriate size for Malfeas is proportional to its weirdness. If most demons are so inhuman that you can call them morally and narratively meaningless with a straight face, then Malfeas can be really big. If most demons have their own names and plans, then the size of Malfeas has to be a bit more restrained.

Even setting aside the philosophical stuff...suppose one percent of one percent of one percent of one percent of one percent of demonkind follows the Immaculate Faith. And suppose there are ten billion demons for every human. All of a sudden a strong majority of immaculates are demons, and the Mouth of Peace's most powerful support base is her Malfean constituency.

This seems undesirable.

I think a lot of people forget one thing about the Yozi. They are cosmic horror, with an emphasis on the cosmic. That is why they are all patterned after literal astrologically large phenomena.

Part of this is that the scale of Malfeas is huge to the point that Creation looks insignificant in comparison. All of the stories of human beings since their beginning are nothing more than an eyeblink to a Primordial, all of their lifespans combined a rounding error in their calculations.

The Yozi are the vast, hostile, incomprehensible universe of Lovecraftian horror. You are supposed to behold the teeming masses of Malfeas and fall into existential despair about your cosmic insignificance. Your Immaculate Priest is supposed to learn forbidden truths which distort his worldview and lead him to Yozi-worship because... because what else matters than the Yozi? The Infernal Exalted are supposed to be able to lay a convincing case that they are righting an injustice so horrific that all the injustices that happened in Creation since its inception are like candles next to the (green nuclear hate filled) sun.

Confronting the multitudes and scale of Malfeas is to confront nihilism. You are supposed to tell stories about overcoming it or surrendering.

If you want to tell stories about confronting nihilism, it's probably best not to make the "nihilists" correct by humanist standards.

That's the "stupid useless compassion" viewpoint that ES and Aleph joke about with Kerisgame. Being so wrapped up in philosophical morality that you're incapable of fixing what's actually in front of you. People who play as perfect actors are missing the point of exalted, which is regular humans having tremendous power.

And besides, if Joe Solar went to Malfeas to try and set up a FCD reserve, he'd either get killed or akuma-ized because the Yozis are insane god-monsters who had their better parts surgically extracted in order to make the Yozis their own jailers.

The Exalted killed and imprisoned the Primordials. Making them treat their slaves better is not beyond them.

Saving First Circles is, in fact, fixing what's in front of you.

With all due respect, Exalted is not built that way. You will not find a single mote, even if you filter with the finest sieve, of meaning or justice.

You will, actually. The books are often fairly opinionated.
 
The Exalted killed and imprisoned the Primordials. Making them treat their slaves better is not beyond them.

Saving First Circles is, in fact, fixing what's in front of you.

...yes. The Exalted Host, unified, defeated the Primordials, killed some and mutilated and imprisoned others.

Your circle of... what, five Solars? Is not the Exalted Host, unified.
 
Besides, even if the Exalted Host rose into Malfeas I'm not sure how well they could actually force 'humane' conditions on the demons there without well Ghost Killing mroe Primordials which probably doesn't do much more than make the Underworld problem worse. I mean sure, the Yozi are dead and so not casually killing demons but now the Underworld has another world sized body stuck on top of the void....
 
...yes. The Exalted Host, unified, defeated the Primordials, killed some and mutilated and imprisoned others.

Your circle of... what, five Solars? Is not the Exalted Host, unified.

And saving some demons isn't overthrowing the Primordials.

Plus, you don't have to do it alone. Chances are your potential allies don't care about demons, but you can bundle your agenda into a broader anti-Reclamation/new-First-Age/whatever coalition.

And regardless, "you can't do it, you'll just be crushed" is exactly the wrong approach to this game. Even on the occasions where it's likely true. (This isn't one.)
 
if what you want is to make Creation the place where your decisions make a difference
Setting aside the numbers thing, I don't understand why you think Malfeas's population has anything to do with your decisions making a difference if you're in Creation.
They're almost entirely separate. Things in Malfeas don't effect Creation, and things in Creation only sometimes effect things in Malfeas.

Even setting aside the philosophical stuff...suppose one percent of one percent of one percent of one percent of one percent of demonkind follows the Immaculate Faith. And suppose there are ten billion demons for every human. All of a sudden a strong majority of immaculates are demons, and the Mouth of Peace's most powerful support base is her Malfean constituency.
I'm sorry, how are these demons interacting with things in Creation?
I recognize the point you're trying to make, but when a population is almost entirely isolated from you, their opinions are basically irrelevant to you until you want them to be relevant.
 
...I'm just imagining the chaos of a group of Demons who are trying to preach the Immaculate Doctrine to the Yozi's souls. That would be hillarious (if hillariously dangerous) to be around whne somebody tries to explain to Liger and co why they should pay homage to the Dragonblooded.
 
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