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General Exalted Thread

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Dif said:
Expanding on Shyft's point about Artillery and the mote pool thing, the main thing you need to remember in context of Creation's mortals is that a TMA master is a street-level Action Hero and a Sorcerer is a Miracle Worker, and a lot of this comes down to Essence. Mortals generally only have Essence x 10 motes available to them, and max out at Essence 3. Those 10-30 motes say a Lot about how an enlightened mortal has to handle their business, because they have neither the resources or the longevity of effects to simply power through foes and obstacles with brute force alone.

For a TMA-user, their Charms cost about 1-5m, typically, which means that they are going to get used sparingly the more opposition they face. Like an Action Hero, they save their cool moments for the necessary times, and otherwise act through guile, stealth or misdirection to square things up against other mortals, or briefly punch above their weight to grab and hold onto an advantage. These are your Tony Jaas, your Bruce Lees and such, and they are at their best when the enemy has no other choice but to try and hit them, and open themselves up to the pain train.

For example, lets assume we have a martial artist who has a 2m "counterattack" which lets him advance on ranged enemies outside of melee. Some guy with a gun takes three potshots at him, and our martial artist blocks all three successfully and advances three times at his opponent, using some insane Jackie Chan table-sliding stunt and deflecting every bullet off hastily-grabbed plates to negate the Lethal aspect of the attacks through parries. He is now in melee range of his attacker, and kicks the gun out of his hand. He spent 6m to get there, somewhere in the range of 60% to 20% of his total resources, but has reduced One foe to a fistfight, his area of advantage because he's maxed out his Dex+MA. Two guys with guns? He's not going to try that trick. Three? He's not going to even enter the room unless its via the ceiling or window to get a drop on them.

And this only compounds as the more enemies there are to fight, and so you see a lot of creeping around like early-franchise Rambo, and less imperiously taking out rooms of goons like late-franchise Rambo. If our martial artist has a 5m Charm which allows him to punch like a sledgehammer, he can only do that an upwards of Six Times at his peak, so its going to be held in reserve until his method of evening the playing field requires putting a fist-shaped puncture-wound in someones chest cavity. Again, preferably from surprise, or while they are disarmed of their potentially-deadly gimmick, not as a boxing match.

By comparison, a Sorcerer has a handful of spells which cost 10m to 15m at the low end, but the effects are Much more impressive. But they are otherwise a mortal, with no other tools at their disposal once those motes are too tapped for spell-use anymore. After two or three such feats per day, its back to thinking smart and relying on something other than magical powers to push through. This is either your opening gambit to a conflict/obstacle, or cementing your victory, nothing more. Because anything else is likely to put you in deep shit when your options are that limited.

A sorcerer can throw a pair of Obsidian Butterfly waves with no contest, but like a man wielding a pair of bazookas with no time to reload, he is now totally at the mercy of any survivors who made it out of the way quick enough. He can rebuild a priceless tome from the barest scrap of paper once, but now he only has only half a pool available for the rest of the day, assuming that's even enough motes to cast most other spells he knows. Its entirely about choosing your battles, and if you can achieve things through trickery or physical force first, rather than relying on a limited-use spell, you've assured your option to cast that spell later.

This is, coincidentally, why mortals are never Just a Martial artist or a sorcerer. You need a plan B for when you can't do those things anymore, and putting yourself into the situations where those things will win the day. You can't be an Exalt and just keep piling on Charm activations until the world gives up, its tiling a floor with a toolbox of hammers and spanners.
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I assume that aside from rare artifacts, there are no ways to store or build up essence?
 
Accelerator said:
I assume that aside from rare artifacts, there are no ways to store or build up essence?
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Of those which exist, they tend to be outlandishly expensive, time-consuming to use, dangerous to have and utilize, morally-questionable in some manner, require the patronage of a much greater being with suspect motives, or some combination of those things. Because having more essence outside of a Charm or tool isn't simply tapping into more Mana Points, it is leashing incarnate power from an external source and binding it to you in some manner before spending it, like being a metaphorical lightning rod in a rainstorm or stealing the Sun-Orb from the House of the Sun.

If your martial artist is capable of that, and has those sorts of tools and connections, they're not just some aspirant legbreaker from the streets who knows a few things about running a dojo.
 
Dif said:
Of those which exist, they tend to be outlandishly expensive, time-consuming to use, dangerous to have and utilize, morally-questionable in some manner, require the patronage of a much greater being with suspect motives, or some combination of those things. Because having more essence outside of a Charm or tool isn't simply tapping into more Mana Points, it is leashing incarnate power from an external source and binding it to you in some manner before spending it, like being a metaphorical lightning rod in a rainstorm or stealing the Sun-Orb from the House of the Sun.

If your martial artist is capable of that, and has those sorts of tools and connections, they're not just some aspirant legbreaker from the streets who knows a few things about running a dojo.
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Ah, fine then.

i assume this includes storing up spells like D&D scrolls, right?

What do you think of this?

FrivYeti/Sorcerer - Exalted - Unofficial Wiki
 
In 3E, Sorcerers can awaken powers that aren't directly Sorcery, and can replicate a lot of lesser spell effects that you might want.
For example, this includes an ability to create fire at-will to attack with it and do other such things. Not a spell, simply a form of attack and included utility - but clearly magic.
You can also include lots of other effects like that, if you want. In 2E, they're probably best modeled as specific mutations, though you may also write minor charms.

Basically:
If you're writing a story of your own, or want a game with something very specific in mind, don't let yourself be too constrained by the game rules. Sorcerers producing effects lesser than Terrestrial Circle Sorcery, but with less effort, is perfectly within their thematics. So is Sorcery being this huge, clumsy, interruptable thing that it is in 2E - in 3E, it's much more viable in combat, though still not particularly fast for non-Exalts.
 
Serafina said:
In 3E, Sorcerers can awaken powers that aren't directly Sorcery, and can replicate a lot of lesser spell effects that you might want.
For example, this includes an ability to create fire at-will to attack with it and do other such things. Not a spell, simply a form of attack and included utility - but clearly magic.
You can also include lots of other effects like that, if you want. In 2E, they're probably best modeled as specific mutations, though you may also write minor charms.

Basically:
If you're writing a story of your own, or want a game with something very specific in mind, don't let yourself be too constrained by the game rules. Sorcerers producing effects lesser than Terrestrial Circle Sorcery, but with less effort, is perfectly within their thematics. So is Sorcery being this huge, clumsy, interruptable thing that it is in 2E - in 3E, it's much more viable in combat, though still not particularly fast for non-Exalts.
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What about in the context of worm?

And oh yeah, I just noticed you're the author of Divine Bureaucracy. That's my first exalted fanfic I read. Thanks.

edit: thanks for the hugs.....
 
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Accelerator said:
Ah, fine then.

i assume this includes storing up spells like D&D scrolls, right?
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Doubly so, because you're attempting to contain a fully-formed essence pattern without damaging it, or attempting to generate it in real-time through the medium being used.

Things which are capable of doing that don't fall into the hands of just anyone, but instead the likes of Demoneater Kai, Sorcerer-Lord of the Pale Wastes, who tore the brain from a crystal demon wasp in open combat and alchemically sealed it within the jar strapped to his staff of office, which is the focus for his tossing out an extra Infallible Messenger a day. Everyone knows this particular summons, because they appear as ethereal wasps before being consumed in green fire at the end of such messages.
 
Accelerator said:
What about in the context of worm?

And oh yeah, I just noticed you're the author of Divine Bureaucracy. That's my first exalted fanfic I read. Thanks.
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An Exalted-style Sorcerer in Worm?

Look at the effects Sorcery can produce at the Terrestrial level.
Death of Obsidian Butterflies/Flight of the Brilliant Raptor basically makes them an artillery piece. Too slow to be a solo-win against armed humans, much less most capes. Good for hitting hardier capes, assuming someone else does most of the fighting.
Invulnerable Skin of Bronze should turn the character about as durable as someone in power armor or maybe a low/mid-tier brute. Wood Dragons Claw is decent offense, but only comparable to low-tier brutes/strikers.
Mists of Eventide is probably the best combat option since it is non-lethal, but the area-effect, set-up time and escapeable area are exploitable weaknesses.
Cirrus Skiff and Stormwind Rider give flight, with the related advantages.
Infallible Messenger, Silent Words of Dreams and Nightmare and similar effects give untraceable communication and limited remote observation. However, even mundane technology can get similar effects, never mind tinker tech.
The most important spells would be those that have hard-to-replicate effects - such as Corrupted Words, which is extremely valuable for keeping secrets.
Well, that's assuming Minion Summoning - whether Demons or Elementals - is not in play. If it IS, then that is clearly the strongest effect. Combat-focussed Demons/Elementals are not able to challenge stronger parahumans in combat - but you could get a good amount of them, they're disposable, and not every parahuman is that good in combat.

The real strength of a Sorcerer is clearly their versatility. The above is just core-book spells, there are more with other effects. Most capes are stuck with just one trick, albeit some get very versatile ones and some are not so limited. Even a mortal Sorcerer would have a whole bunch of different tricks, all comparable to a low-tier parahuman power.
But that doesn't make the Sorcerer a good front-line fighter. With Invulnerable Skin of Bronze, Wood Dragons Claw and/or The Burning Name, they'd be tough enough to take on most human-level physical threats (and at some range, with The Burning Name). But they'd be quickly taken down by Glory Girl, Hookwolf, Bitchs dogs and wouldn't be invulnerable to guns, never mind the really strong parahumans.

No, their real value is in having a whole bag of tricks.
Your team needs transportation? You can call up flight in under a minute. Untraceable calls? Need a specialized power or tinker-tech - you have that too, and just that power can justify inclusion in a team. Cursing someone to vomit up maggots whenever they try to communicate about a topic may be messy - but it's often preferable to killing them, and can even be a nice in-team security measure.
Most teams would keep a Sorcerer as a support member, away from the front lines. Think Panacea or Othala - or Tattletale, if she had been allowed to do so.
If the Sorcerer does get forced into fighting - by their team, their shard (if they have one), circumstances or the authors desire - then they'd be best off using Invulnerable Skin of Bronze, getting up on a Cirrus Skiff, and then using Mists of Eventide to non-lethally take down people, or Flight of the Brilliant Raptor/Death of Obisidian Butterflies to take down tough opponents. From the air, where they mostly have to worry about accurate ranged attacks and flying capes.

But if they're stuck without that, due to surprise or some other effects? Sorcery shouldn't be something you can call up instantly, on a whim. In 3E there are lots of ways to get one spell off in just a single action, but that's difficult, especially for mortals, and limited to maybe once per day or even month. Your Sorcerer would be in trouble - and that's perfectly fine. If they have non-spell things (such as The Burning Name) they can use that, otherwise - well, having a weakness is fine for a character and story.


Speaking of Divine Bureaucracy - sadly the writing is currently mostly stalled for a whole bunch of reasons, but my co-authors chapters are doing an exploration of a Sorceress in Worm (Lisa, to be specific). We're mostly using the 3E system for inspiration, but really aren't sticking to the actual rules too closely and made up some sorcerous initiation merits/control spell effects to make it more interesting.
 
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Quv, the Custodian Abstract
Demon of the Second Circle
Warden Soul of the Street of Golden Lanterns

When Quv enters the world, he takes up residence in a suitably prepared well-constructed fortress. All souls are forced from this place by his entrance, and all doors and windows become one of his many mouths, filled with golden teeth. His watchful jade eyeballs open on archstones and roofs grow thatching of Malfean vegetation. His insides inhabit the corridors of the structure and redirect them as he wills. His oaths are written into his very architecture, and his stony honour holds him fast. Stormy weather gathers overhead and does not depart nor relent, enveloping him in an oppressive humidity without end.

Quv is a guardian of the possessions of others, though his time may only be rented. When a sorcerer or a demon wishes to keep something safe with all the power of a demon lord, they go to Quv and knock upon his doors and then make an offering to him and name a duration and what they wish safeguarded. If he is pleased by the offering, he opens a mouth and lets them place the thing upon his tongue, and not even the binding of a summoner will persuade him to give it up until its time of safety is up. Should the item not be claimed before the time is up, though, Quv devours it and its ownership passes to him, to do with as he wishes.

The Custodian Abstract is not merely a protector of the physical, though. A sorcerer may give Quv her word and until she reclaims it no oath or bargain will have a hold on her. A magician who wishes to engage in carnal affairs but must remain pure for ritual purposes may entrust Quv with his virginity, and know it will remain safe on the demon's tongue, untouched by anything he does. Some have wondered if one might even entrust Quv with one's death, but so far no price has persuaded him to take such a thing.

Sorcerers call upon Quv to guard their possessions and cheat their oaths. A wary magician always remembers how long they have retained Quv's services, though, for he neither gives nor receives without pay - much like his greater self - and not even the commands of his master can stop him devouring that which is placed within him without proper pay. Some fools have thought to use him to dispose of unwanted or unwarranted gesea and curses and indeed he will take these things, but to let them pass into his ownership is unwise.
 
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EarthScorpion said:
Quv, the Custodian Abstract
Demon of the Second Circle
Warden Soul of the Street of Golden Lanterns

When Quv enters the world, he takes up residence in a well-constructed fortress. All souls are forced from this place by his entrance, and all doors and windows become one of his many mouths, filled with golden teeth. His watchful jade eyeballs open on archstones and roofs grow thatching of Malfean vegetation. His oaths are written into his very architecture, and his stony honour holds him fast. Stormy weather gathers overhead and does not depart nor relent, enveloping him in an oppressive humidity without end.

Quv is a guardian of the possessions of others, though his time may only be rented. When a sorcerer or a demon wishes to keep something safe with all the power of a demon lord, they go to Quv and knock upon his doors and then make an offering to him and name a duration and what they wish safeguarded. If he is pleased by the offering, he opens a mouth and lets them place the thing upon his tongue, and not even the binding of a summoner will persuade him to give it up until its time of safety is up. Should the item not be claimed before the time is up, though, Quv devours it and its ownership passes to him, to do with as he wishes.

The Custodian Abstract is not merely a protector of the physical, though. A sorcerer may give Quv her word and until she reclaims it no oath or bargain will have a hold on her. A magician who wishes to engage in carnal affairs but must remain pure for ritual purposes may entrust Quv with his virginity, and know it will remain safe on the demon's tongue, untouched by anything he does. Some have wondered if one might even entrust Quv with one's death, but so far no price has persuaded him to take such a thing.

Sorcerers call upon Quv to guard their possessions and cheat their oaths. A wary magician always remembers how long they have retained Quv's services, though, for he neither gives nor receives without pay - much like his greater self - and not even the commands of his master can stop him devouring that which is placed within him without proper pay. Some fools have thought to use him to dispose of unwanted or unwarranted gesea and curses and indeed he will take these things, but to let them pass into his ownership is unwise.
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Huh, that's really cool/weird. How many rituals are there that rely on virginity anyways?

But it's a cool concept in general, having him 'eat' even concepts.
 
Oh, right, the Street of Golden Lanterns. That's a pretty cool demon, actually.

...okay, now I'm curious, @EarthScorpion. With the Kerisgame concept of the Reclaimation, what areas would you see the Street's interest as being in?
 
I like that, that's very cool. I'm not entirely sure what you mean by 'Some fools have thought to use him to dispose of unwanted or unwarranted gesea and curses and indeed he will take these things, but to let them pass into his ownership is unwise for then he may do with the curse as he wishes.' Does that mean he can now use those curses on other people? Or does it mean say if I am cursed and pass it on to him, he can now modify the terms of the curse as he wills it?
 
EarthScorpion said:
Quv, the Custodian Abstract
Demon of the Second Circle
Warden Soul of the Street of Golden Lanterns

When Quv enters the world, he takes up residence in a well-constructed fortress. All souls are forced from this place by his entrance, and all doors and windows become one of his many mouths, filled with golden teeth. His watchful jade eyeballs open on archstones and roofs grow thatching of Malfean vegetation. His oaths are written into his very architecture, and his stony honour holds him fast. Stormy weather gathers overhead and does not depart nor relent, enveloping him in an oppressive humidity without end.

Quv is a guardian of the possessions of others, though his time may only be rented. When a sorcerer or a demon wishes to keep something safe with all the power of a demon lord, they go to Quv and knock upon his doors and then make an offering to him and name a duration and what they wish safeguarded. If he is pleased by the offering, he opens a mouth and lets them place the thing upon his tongue, and not even the binding of a summoner will persuade him to give it up until its time of safety is up. Should the item not be claimed before the time is up, though, Quv devours it and its ownership passes to him, to do with as he wishes.

The Custodian Abstract is not merely a protector of the physical, though. A sorcerer may give Quv her word and until she reclaims it no oath or bargain will have a hold on her. A magician who wishes to engage in carnal affairs but must remain pure for ritual purposes may entrust Quv with his virginity, and know it will remain safe on the demon's tongue, untouched by anything he does. Some have wondered if one might even entrust Quv with one's death, but so far no price has persuaded him to take such a thing.

Sorcerers call upon Quv to guard their possessions and cheat their oaths. A wary magician always remembers how long they have retained Quv's services, though, for he neither gives nor receives without pay - much like his greater self - and not even the commands of his master can stop him devouring that which is placed within him without proper pay. Some fools have thought to use him to dispose of unwanted or unwarranted gesea and curses and indeed he will take these things, but to let them pass into his ownership is unwise.
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I really like this, but I don't think the "give him your word" should let you fake out of Eclipse oaths, FWIW.
 
Kuciwalker said:
I really like this, but I don't think the "give him your word" should let you fake out of Eclipse oaths, FWIW.
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It's an entirely coherent concept. The Eclipse anima power lets you sanctify sworn oaths so there's consequences if it's broken. Giving Quv your word means you're completely unable to agree to any oaths, because he has your word. Therefore, you can't swear an oath for an Eclipse to sanctify.

horngeek said:
...okay, now I'm curious, @EarthScorpion. With the Kerisgame concept of the Reclaimation, what areas would you see the Street's interest as being in?
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She's basically just going to use the Infernals as suppliers and enablers. As I see her, the Street of Golden Lanterns doesn't really have any great plans but is super-decadent and self-absorbed, which means that she's going to use Infernals to acquire things she wants from Creation (slaves, rare resources, treasures) and to protect and encourage her cults (because she likes being prayed to).

So, amusingly, she's a fairly good "low investment" patron if you don't want a major commitment to an Unquestionable patron, but do want to do jobs on the side. Get her some cults, drag some Raksha back to Hell whose sworn oaths you can offer to her, and she'll be pleased with you and have your back in Unquestionable politics and will probably let you use her (likely quite sizable) cultist networks as contacts and spies.
 
Accelerator said:
Well..... since No limits actually works in Exalted, it should work.
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Have you actually read an Exalted book or are you just basing your statements off the Meme version of it?

Eclipse Oaths are serious important things that shape the current setting. From memory the only thing that comes close to theoretically allowing you to shrug off one is possessed by another Eclipse Type, and even them it only 'holds it off' not removes it completely (and they'll likely blackmail the shit out of you with it as a threat)

Faking your way out of it (by not actually swearing it is one thing) but shrugging it off is something completely different.
 
Yeah, but this doesn't let you shrug one off, it just doesn't let you swear it in the first place. Which, incidentally, probably means the oath-sealing power won't trigger, and the Eclipse will notice that it didn't.
 
Sucal said:
Have you actually read an Exalted book or are you just basing your statements off the Meme version of it?

Eclipse Oaths are serious important things that shape the current setting. From memory the only thing that comes close to theoretically allowing you to shrug off one is possessed by another Eclipse Type, and even them it only 'holds it off' not removes it completely (and they'll likely blackmail the shit out of you with it as a threat)

Faking your way out of it (by not actually swearing it is one thing) but shrugging it off is something completely different.
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I meant faking it out.

If you don't have your word, you can't give it, can you?
 
Kora, the Disciple of Dharma
Demon of the Second Circle
Defining Soul of Noh

The Disciple of Dharma is a tall man, with dark skin weathered by the touch of time. His hair expands from his scalp in a ball, and centipedes and flies dwell within. His long fingers each have nine joints. Commonly he dresses in a stained white robe that he tries his best to keep clean, though it is often patched with whatever comes to hand. He carries a long blade made of dark metal forged by his cousin Alevua, though he wraps his sword in bandages so that he may strike without killing. When he comes to a land, tempers flare and and men slay other men over petty insults.

In the beginning, there was nothing but formless chaos. There was no sin for no things had meaning and no consequences. But a dragon did what should never have been done and innocence died in fire. The dragon's younger brother understood that sin was the nature of the genesis of titans, and begat his heart Noh, who saw that things were not as they should be and thought to consider alternatives. Her contrary nature begat Kora and sent him to seek out and study at the feet of incorruptible Dharma, so that she might learn why corruption exists.

For uncounted aeons Kora sought Dharma in the depths of chaos and found him not, for all things save that perfect being are fallible and Kora was more fallible than most. His passions were tumultuous; his vices all-consuming; his rages fiery. When the Primordials fell, however, a vision came upon Kora and he saw Dharma and understood everything he had sought. Alas, such knowledge was too great for the mind of a demon lord and much of it was lost - and more was lost when his greater self was confined within newly-forged Hell. Still, enough remained that he understood his imperfections. There and then he swore an oath that he would not rest until he was his master's equal.

Five thousand years have passed, and Kora has held to his oath. Sleepless, he stalks the Demon City seeking to purge his own sins and correct his own nature. He kills not, drinks only water and eats only what others have no need for. He meditates in the desolate places of the realm of the demons. His temper and his vices still tempt him, but whenever he gives in he descends into a morose frenzy of self-flagellation until he feels he has excised such weakness. And wherever he goes, he preaches the doctrine of Dharma, that all beings are flawed and weak and doomed to death, which makes him few friends and forces him to resort to his blunt sword to survive.

Sorcerers call upon Kora as an enforcer or for esoteric wisdom. He will not willingly kill, but he retains all his old skills at violence. The fragments of knowledge from Dharma he retains may help a sorcerer devise a new spell, or may simply rouse their curiosity and suggest new avenues of research. The Disciple of Dharma can squirm forth from Hell when he hears the wails of a holy man who mourns the sinfulness of others. Such hypocrisy appals him and he takes it upon himself to educate the pious.
 
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This really isn't a big deal: I, a perfectly ordinary human being, am also capable of defying Eclipse-Oaths in exactly the same way.
By not agreeing to any such Oath, that is. I just won't make any agreements, pledges, promises or the like that could be sanctified Oaths.
This will of course be rather obvious, and often be a big drawback.

Now granted, this specific thing may actually be a more advantageous. Because this way, you can still pretend you've "given your word" on something - that you did make an agreement or pledge, or did give a promise or Oath.
But it shouldn't fool any other magic. Certainly not Eclipse-Oath level magic. To such magic, it should be perfectly obvious that you're just pretending and didn't actually swear any oath.
I'd even argue that it should be possible to notice without such specific magic. A good Read Intentions action should be able to tell that someone who entrusted their word to Quv actually didn't promise anything. The actually mechanics - how such a roll is modified, if you need Charms or which ones you need etc. - can vary of course. But I certainly wouldn't treat it as anything other than a very convincing lie.
 
The big benefit to not being able to give your word is probably that you couldn't be bullied/pressured under duress to do so. So if you knew you were going to have to deal with some unnatural mental influence or serious social combat, giving your word to Kora would effectively make you immune to being compromised in that manner. I picture DB's who follow the Immaculate Path (most?) would be weary with dealing with Solar mind trickery, so Kora might be a good workaround/contingency they might have on the books should the Anathema return. Also, Kora's services in giving one's word might help in avoiding being pressed into the services of the Perfect of Paragon (though getting caught by his forces and being unable to submit would likely still be lethal once they found out they couldn't subvert you).
 
RemoteScholar said:
The big benefit to not being able to give your word is probably that you couldn't be bullied/pressured under duress to do so. So if you knew you were going to have to deal with some unnatural mental influence or serious social combat, giving your word to Kora would effectively make you immune to being compromised in that manner. I picture DB's who follow the Immaculate Path (most?) would be weary with dealing with Solar mind trickery, so Kora might be a good workaround/contingency they might have on the books should the Anathema return. Also, Kora's services in giving one's word might help in avoiding being pressed into the services of the Perfect of Paragon (though getting caught by his forces and being unable to submit would likely still be lethal once they found out they couldn't subvert you).
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Of course, being unable to give word of agreement or not to harm you means that your opponent may have no choice but to simply kill you.

Kinda unfortunate.

Let's throw in rulebreaker.
 
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