Remove ads

General Exalted Thread

Reader mode
Dark Ness said:
Now I feel dumb.

Probably closer to Kerisgame flavor, from the Solar's PoV, but with less stability. But with an ending closer to the one in Green Sun.

Like, for example, Infernal loses control, Solar comes out, Solar proceeds to be confused, Solar does whatever, stuff happens, and the Infernal wakes up to find his whole coven dead, the city on fire, and himself napping on the king's throne.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

The thing is, that's fundamentally incompatible.

A Past Life possessed starting Infernal is still a starting Infernal. They will not be able to kill their entire coven unless they're already the party combat specialist or otherwise considerably more killy than their allies. Any mechanic where a starting character can suddenly gain hundreds of XP is a NOK mechanic for the standard case, doubly so when this boosted character is also ideologically inclined to fuck over the entire party. I'd ban such a mechanic from my games because any player taking it is basically a time-bomb that can screw over the entire party and thus it's antisocial play. And that would make me sad, because I like playing around with Past Life stuff - but making it a way to go Evil Super Saiyan and ruin everything is not getting in.

No, the "delusional Infernal" is the only way to meaningfully do it and actually use it in a game.

Please note, too, that the AGSITV occurrence a) nearly got the Slayer killed, b) was mostly in the face of mortal opponents, and c) was against enemies who knew nothing of what the scary green-glowing murderer was. It was not against Dragonblood-tier opposition, let alone against Celestials.
 
... I honestly kind of disagree on this one, @EarthScorpion.

I just like the idea of Past Life being a pseudo-ghost; a dead man's mind and beliefs locked up in the depths of your soul. I like the narrative and thematic potential of a lost god-king of yore suddenly awakening to find that everything he knew is gone and that some upstart has usurped his Exaltation, and then reacting to that. I'd rather handle it as "a dead man was raised" than "you have a mental illness".

Making it just some Solaroid-exclusive derangement just... cheapens it. The Vigilant Watcher of the Deeps isn't having a panic attack over the revelation that the Neverborn have been left unguarded for centuries and now the Yozi have their hooks in them - it's just your character having a bizarre little episode that will soon pass. You don't have a madgod living behind your eyes, desperate to break out and try to fix everything (by his definition, of course), you're just getting some wires crossed.

Maybe it's just personal taste, but I'd still much prefer the idea of Past Lives being alive, and not just some clump of inert memories.
 
Kuciwalker said:
No, there are not two sides, and this is lazy Stormwind thinking. If the idea is that players will just not design their characters to be effective at their role, then there is no point to the game mechanics at all; you can ditch them entirely.

And of course it ignores the case where the paranoia combat build is an honest reflection of their original concept.

Come on, Vicky. This is just lame. Why are you defending this point as if it were Stalingrad?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I do not claim that optimisers can't roleplay. But I do think that something that is as highly specific a build as the P-combo is extremely unlikely to be an honest reflection of a concept. It just seems to run counter to the ways character concepts tend to be described, avoiding all of the goodies that concepts often call for while simultaneously take multiple ones that concepts rarely include (e.g. it avoids conceptually more common/attractive Surprise Anticipation but takes the much more counterintuitively-working and non-obvious Reflex Sidestep, for the sole reason that the system encourages one more than the other).

I consider "A method to make a character significally better than others exist, therefore everyone must build all characters that way, ditching all concepts that don't match the One True Build" to be disruptive to gameplay. Mechanics exist to represent the desires/concepts of the players, not the other way around (within a certain leeway of characters that are acceptable in a given game line, anyway).

As for the 'Stalingrad' bit . . . Well, IME the problem is nowhere near as bad as its reputation, and I find it unpleasant that my experience is considered to not count for reals. Then again, we all form our opinions based on our experiences, including those cases when we read something, perform our own experiment, and get results that may or may not match the preconceptions. IME the 'do not go full-on P-combat' works with the right group and GM (even inexperienced ones), even though it has some flaws and dangerous bits.
 
The Paranoia Combo is not a highly specific build.

It is a very simple set of low-hanging abilities. A Paranoia combo is, as I recall, a surprise negator, an onslaught counter, a shaping defense and a perfect dodge/parry, and a perfect soak. Additional keyword defenses are highly recommended but not mandatory.
 
pheonix89 said:
The Paranoia Combo is not a highly specific build.

It is a very simple set of low-hanging abilities. A Paranoia combo is, as I recall, a surprise negator, an onslaught counter, a shaping defense and a perfect dodge/parry, and a perfect soak. Additional keyword defenses are highly recommended but not mandatory.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Not even that.

Surprise negator, perfect dodge/parry, flurrybreaker. That's it. You might have to pick up an onslaught counter for prereq purposes, but it's not part of the standard combo, a shaping defense is advised but also not necessary, and getting a perfect soak is starting to build a 2/7 Filter that's a marginally more advanced expression of the basic paranoia combo.
 
vicky_molokh said:
I consider "A method to make a character significally better than others exist, therefore everyone must build all characters that way, ditching all concepts that don't match the One True Build" to be disruptive to gameplay.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
It's not "significantly better" - it's the only viable one. The other options are nonviable unless your GM is fiating away all the lethal stuff in the game world, most of which is supposed to be common.
 
Imrix said:
Not even that.

Surprise negator, perfect dodge/parry, flurrybreaker. That's it. You might have to pick up an onslaught counter for prereq purposes, but it's not part of the standard combo, a shaping defense is advised but also not necessary, and getting a perfect soak is starting to build a 2/7 Filter that's a marginally more advanced expression of the basic paranoia combo.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
That's rather specific. Even the minimalistic set means that your primary defence has to be Dodge (because three of those lie in Dodge). Going for the Awareness surprise negator is considered not of the one true way. Perfect Parry implies that your attack style must be the raw Solar Mêlée and not any of the other styles. The Onslaught counters are likewise mostly available through Mêlée and Dodge, though Even Blade does have something similar IIRC.
All of that seems highly specific to me, given the many other combat-oriented concepts and their respective builds exist in Exalted.
 
vicky_molokh said:
I do not claim that optimisers can't roleplay. But I do think that something that is as highly specific a build as the P-combo is extremely unlikely to be an honest reflection of a concept. It just seems to run counter to the ways character concepts tend to be described, avoiding all of the goodies that concepts often call for while simultaneously take multiple ones that concepts rarely include (e.g. it avoids conceptually more common/attractive Surprise Anticipation but takes the much more counterintuitively-working and non-obvious Reflex Sidestep, for the sole reason that the system encourages one more than the other).

I consider "A method to make a character significally better than others exist, therefore everyone must build all characters that way, ditching all concepts that don't match the One True Build" to be disruptive to gameplay. Mechanics exist to represent the desires/concepts of the players, not the other way around (within a certain leeway of characters that are acceptable in a given game line, anyway).

As for the 'Stalingrad' bit . . . Well, IME the problem is nowhere near as bad as its reputation, and I find it unpleasant that my experience is considered to not count for reals. Then again, we all form our opinions based on our experiences, including those cases when we read something, perform our own experiment, and get results that may or may not match the preconceptions. IME the 'do not go full-on P-combat' works with the right group and GM (even inexperienced ones), even though it has some flaws and dangerous bits.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
lol

"If you don't install these three files before you run the game it will almost certainly crash your computer."

"Well, I think it's disruptive to force everyone to run the game the same way as you do, and one time I played without those files and it worked fine, and you shouldn't assume everyone's after some kind of mythical 'optimal' experience."

We're not talking about eking out a few more +1s, here, Vicky. We're talking about actually being able to play the game.
 
Last edited:
EarthScorpion said:
The thing is, that's fundamentally incompatible.

A Past Life possessed starting Infernal is still a starting Infernal. They will not be able to kill their entire coven unless they're already the party combat specialist or otherwise considerably more killy than their allies. Any mechanic where a starting character can suddenly gain hundreds of XP is a NOK mechanic for the standard case, doubly so when this boosted character is also ideologically inclined to fuck over the entire party. I'd ban such a mechanic from my games because any player taking it is basically a time-bomb that can screw over the entire party and thus it's antisocial play. And that would make me sad, because I like playing around with Past Life stuff - but making it a way to go Evil Super Saiyan and ruin everything is not getting in.

No, the "delusional Infernal" is the only way to meaningfully do it and actually use it in a game.

Please note, too, that the AGSITV occurrence a) nearly got the Slayer killed, b) was mostly in the face of mortal opponents, and c) was against enemies who knew nothing of what the scary green-glowing murderer was. It was not against Dragonblood-tier opposition, let alone against Celestials.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Oh, I do realize that it wouldn't work in a standard game. I am not arguing that the mechanics should work that way. I just think that it would really cool, not that it would be good for game play most of the time.

As to the other topic...

What is the problem with needing the paranoia combo, exactly? I don't think it really hurts the game to say "these three things will keep you alive, I strongly recommend you get them."
 
Last edited:
vicky_molokh said:
That's rather specific. Even the minimalistic set means that your primary defence has to be Dodge (because three of those lie in Dodge). Going for the Awareness surprise negator is considered not of the one true way. Perfect Parry implies that your attack style must be the raw Solar Mêlée and not any of the other styles. The Onslaught counters are likewise mostly available through Mêlée and Dodge, though Even Blade does have something similar IIRC.
All of that seems highly specific to me, given the many other combat-oriented concepts and their respective builds exist in Exalted.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I'm sorry, did you just argue that having to have DODGE for a meaningful combat build is too specific?

And it's dodge OR parry, not dodge AND parry.

I don't really think you actually believe that "oh no, a viable combat build has to be able to DODGE" is restrictive. I think you've just gotten so committed to this whole "2e does not have crippling mechanical flaws because reasons" positions you aren't thinking clearly.
Dark Ness said:
Oh, I do realize that it wouldn't work in a standard game. I am not arguing that the mechanics should work that way. I just think that it would really cool, not that it would be good for game play most of the time.

As to the other topic...

What is the problem with needing the paranoia combo, exactly? I don't think it really hurts the game to say "these three things will keep you alive, I strongly recommend you get them."
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Because the Paranoia combo is damage control for lethality, and lethality rules out a ton of interesting narrative and gameplay spaces.
 
vicky_molokh said:
I do not claim that optimisers can't roleplay. But I do think that something that is as highly specific a build as the P-combo is extremely unlikely to be an honest reflection of a concept. It just seems to run counter to the ways character concepts tend to be described, avoiding all of the goodies that concepts often call for while simultaneously take multiple ones that concepts rarely include (e.g. it avoids conceptually more common/attractive Surprise Anticipation but takes the much more counterintuitively-working and non-obvious Reflex Sidestep, for the sole reason that the system encourages one more than the other).
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Dude, you have the full P-combo if you just take the four starting Dodge Charms in the core book.
 
pheonix89 said:
I'm sorry, did you just argue that having to have DODGE for a meaningful combat build is too specific?

And it's dodge OR parry, not dodge AND parry.

I don't really think you actually believe that "oh no, a viable combat build has to be able to DODGE" is restrictive. I think you've just gotten so committed to this whole "2e does not have crippling mechanical flaws because reasons" positions you aren't thinking clearly.

Because the Paranoia combo is damage control for lethality, and lethality rules out a ton of interesting narrative and gameplay spaces.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I ran a Snake Style (MA) & eventually Resistance (soak path) character. Our Samurai was Even Blade and Resistance (Ox-Bodies primarily). Our sorc was Archery and Bronze Skin (soak). Our escaped-slave barbarian was Tiger Style and Resistance (soak, full AST). And our Haltan was Archery + Dodge.
So yes, 'everyone needs to go Mêlée+Dodge' is highly specific in the context of concepts encounterable (and encountered!) in an Exalted campaign.

Also, 2e does have mechanical flaws, some of them quite nasty. But it's important not to put all the blame on the mechanics.
 
vicky_molokh said:
I ran a Snake Style (MA) & eventually Resistance (soak path) character. Our Samurai was Even Blade and Resistance (Ox-Bodies primarily). Our sorc was Archery and Bronze Skin (soak). Our escaped-slave barbarian was Tiger Style and Resistance (soak, full AST). And our Haltan was Archery + Dodge.
So yes, 'everyone needs to go Mêlée+Dodge' is highly specific in the context of concepts encounterable (and encountered!) in an Exalted campaign.

Also, 2e does have mechanical flaws, some of them quite nasty. But it's important not to put all the blame on the mechanics.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
You don't need to go melee for paranoia combat. Stop lying.
 
vicky_molokh said:
So yes, 'everyone needs to go Mêlée+Dodge' is highly specific in the context of concepts encounterable (and encountered!) in an Exalted campaign.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I said I'm done with you, but this is so fucking egregious I have to quash it.

Nobody is saying that. I certainly bloody didn't. I said the paranoia combo consists of a perfect defense, a flurrybreaker and a surprise negator. Where you get them doesn't matter, just that you have them. You wanna go MA? Fine, there's a PD in Crane Style and a flurrybreaker with no prereqs in Unconquered Sun Style. Probably more I've forgotten.

Now, if you'll excuse me,

 
Last edited:
GardenerBriareus said:
Maybe it's just personal taste, but I'd still much prefer the idea of Past Lives being alive, and not just some clump of inert memories.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Problem is, Past Lives is deeply connected to the nature of shard-memories as a narrative "you just know some shit due to flashbacks" device, just with an added wrinkle of "sometimes you act on that knowledge using a remembered-personality which is not your own." Once you start down the rabbit hole of "this memory isn't just a piece of junk-code crusted against your untended Exaltation, but part of an actual thinking being" you're creating a device that holds more storytelling value unto itself than the character could alone. The host exalt stops being a character with a problem which creates plot-hooks, and becomes a portable box for carrying around and reacting to EIGHTEEN BLADES THE ADAMANT who is driving and creating those plothooks, and as a result that character's story is now Actually focused on her instead.

This kind of thing doesn't happen with, say, an NPC or a talking sword, because even if that NPC is manipulating the character, or that sword is a bloodthirsty one which compels her to kill, the character is still fundamentally That Character, and not replaced temporarily with a different one until the effect passes.
 
I have been thinking, with the Mote reactor hack, how does a roughly equal fight ever end? If both sides are Exalts, with a full paranoia combo, both are competent enough to not use more motes then they regen, and neither has any bullshit charms that can insta-gank the other, wouldn't the fight just go on forever? Or at least until the Hunt attacks both of them?
 
vicky_molokh said:
Not the first case where the spirit (or at least a sensible, non-stupid spirit) of the rules doesn't match the literal reading.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Congratulations! After multiple pointless posts filled with equivocation including the only attempt I've seen to defend the existence of the Creation-Slaying Oblivion Kick as-written in years, you have finally admitted that broken shit should be houseruled, because the text of the rules is retarded and must be changed, explicitly or otherwise. Give yourself a prize.

vicky_molokh said:
Since my paragraph looks like evasion to you, and yours seems like something evasion-like to me, I have to conclude that we're not having the same aspect of combat encounter balance in mind while talking to (or past) each other.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

No shit.

vicky_molokh said:
There are two sides of the coin to the One True Build problem and their ilk. On one side, there's the fact that for a person who has a Play To Win/Powergaming/Optimising attitude, the system does encourage the one true build. The other side is that the problem comes up significantly more if the players in a campaign have such an attitude.
Sure, there's blame on the meta, but there's also blame on the players who take steps away from their original character concepts in order to make a set towards the meta.
In our campaign, the Paranoia Combat didn't show up in its full glory because nobody embraced the Path of the Ultimate Optimizer. We had a samurai with Ox-Bodies because his concept called for someone who is tough and not for someone who uses Essence to harden his skin, a Snake Stylist because the concept called for a MAist instead of a Mêléeist, a dodgy sniper who used a Dodge Excellency at 10 motes in one of the encounters even though Seven Shadow only costs 8 because at that point, Perfecting was conceptually inappropriate, uncool and unfair (he failed that dodge as a result, incidentally). Nobody died over the course of 25 sessions (or slightly more), even though there were close calls.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I pity your poor GM. Either he had to work very hard to ensure none of you died with builds that fragile, or you got unreasonably lucky in that none of the naive choices he made intersected with the terrible choices you people made and resulted in a room full of gibs.

vicky_molokh said:
No, and that's the point: don't go all PenPen Powergaming in a party of roleplayers, nor even in a party of mildly optimising releplayers (I consider myself mildly optimising by comparison with your work on the big P).
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

The fucking paranoia combo is not Pun Pun, vicky. It's a requirement to have hitpoints.
 
Last edited:
Dark Ness said:
What is the problem with needing the paranoia combo, exactly? I don't think it really hurts the game to say "these three things will keep you alive, I strongly recommend you get them."
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

If all combatants have the paranoia combo, combat turns into an incredibly boring holding pattern where people make zero mote attacks into a 2-7 filter until someone runs out of Essence and gets splattered. This is deterministic to the point of being able to determine who will likely win after the very first round exchanging blows.

If no combatants have the paranoia combo, whoever pulls out any of the "lol you die" buttons (of which the game is positively stuffed with) gets to gib their enemy right away, I hope everyone involved brought spare character sheets so that Solar Bob the Third can replace Solar Bob the Second. Who is identical in all ways except that he'll probably have the paranoia combo.

If one combatant has the paranoia combo and everyone else doesn't, that person will kill everyone else, laughing, for he alone is immune to being instantly punked. The next character those players build after being killed will have the paranoia combo.

This is why people like me say Exalted 2 has a terrible system.

Dark Ness said:
I have been thinking, with the Mote reactor hack, how does a roughly equal fight ever end? If both sides are Exalts, with a full paranoia combo, both are competent enough to not use more motes then they regen, and neither has any bullshit charms that can insta-gank the other, wouldn't the fight just go on forever? Or at least until the Hunt attacks both of them?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Do more damage to their mote pool than they can get back stunting. The mote reactor hack's rate of return is equal to that which you would normally get stunting if you pay attention. Note that if you have the p-combo, you cannot be instantly ganked, that is the point of it.
 
Last edited:
Jon Chung said:
If no combatants have the paranoia combo, whoever pulls out any of the "lol you die" buttons (of which the game is positively stuffed with) gets to gib their enemy right away, I hope everyone involved brought spare character sheets so that Solar Bob the Third can replace Solar Bob the Second.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

In Paranoia combat, Friend Autochthon ensured that Exalts come in six-packs of clones.
 
Jon Chung said:
Do more damage to their mote pool than they can get back stunting. The mote reactor hack's rate of return is equal to that which you would normally get stunting if you pay attention.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
How do you do that, exactly? Most of the Mote steal/damage attacks I have seen require you to actually hit the other person.
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top