I get a feeling this sounds like a Pai Mei expy.
It is not.

/me googles who Pai Mei is

Oh I see.
"The elbow, the shoulder, and the knee"

I see what you did there
Actually, the upper arm, the collarbone and the knee. So I have no idea what you mean either.

I just wrote something silly and random that felt Exalted-esque after re-reading bits of Kill Six Billion Demons, which in turn was caused by the appearence of Mathangi Ten Meti, 'Murder The Gods And Topple Their Thrones'.
 
The key to remember is that this is basically the imprint of an Exalted on their Exaltation. So, yes, the Solar would use their styles, and probably their abilities as well. They wouldn't have their attributes (using the current's Exalted's instead). As for ratings, while it's pushed in some cases that elder Solars have 5's in everything, that's kinda silly, and leads to some unfortunate areas. It's probably better to assume they have 5's in their core areas, but not in all abilities. Also, just because they're from the first age doesn't mean they're an elder. Many first Age solars would be young during the usurpation, and even the better training available at that time would mean that they're less experienced than a true elder solar (i.e. over 100 years old or so).

As for charms, those are born out of the union of the Exaltation and the mortal's own souls. The Memory Imprint does not have their soul anymore, and so does not have access to their charms: they would have the infernal charms of their host body instead. Their essence rating isn't on any strict ground: I'd favor having them having the host's essence. They're not another exalt, just a different personality that's surprising the current Exalted's.
That makes a lot of sense. I do want to point out, though, that the 5 dot version is explicitly a super experienced and old Solar who mastered practically everything. Although, if you allow Solar Hero Style, and you are playing a Fiend, I would think that Solar Charms would also be allowed, like some kind of temporary learning effect lasting the length of possesion. Although, maybe the reason only Fiends can learn the Solar charms, but no other Caste can is to give Fiends a unfair advantage over every other Caste, because Ebon Dragon.
Yeah...that's probably one of the single most hated rules on this forum. It causes a whole host of issues, including certain splats being the complete messes that they currently are because getting around it is extremely kludgy. Though, even if it is possible for an Exalted to learn a charm, the fact that they haven't would imply that even if you mentally rewrite them to think that they had learned it, they still wouldn't have actually learned the charm.
That part just confuses me.

Edit:
The mechanics are clear - it is the Infernal who is delusional and thinks they're someone long dead, not a "true" possession.
I know. But if it was a true possession, though...

Just a silly idea of mine, I guess. I kind of had this idea of super-Solar mode, which, I know the rules don't support, but it seemed cool. And if you were going to do it, how would you handle it?
 
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Once upon a time there was a martial arts sifu who, in a fit of pomposity, decided to name his fighting style 'Death With Every Bone'.

One day a supplicant asked him, "but how can you kill with your ribs?"

What a silly supplicant.

Where did he say he was killing you with his bones?

 
It is not.

/me googles who Pai Mei is

Oh I see.
Actually, the upper arm, the collarbone and the knee. So I have no idea what you mean either.

I just wrote something silly and random that felt Exalted-esque after re-reading bits of Kill Six Billion Demons, which in turn was caused by the appearence of Mathangi Ten Meti, 'Murder The Gods And Topple Their Thrones'.
Your elbow is a joint made up of the ulna, radius and the humerus. Super deadly.
Your patella is your kneecap. You can put a huge amount of force into a knee strike, making it quite deadly.
Your clavicle is what supports your shoulder blade, which is what lets us shoulder check people. Not in the same tier as the other two though.
 
I am wondering, in the case of the Infernal Past Life background, how should it be handled, capability-wise, when it is at 5-dots and the Solar does a full possession? (By this, I mean that the old personality has taken over and does whatever it wants).

Should you just assume capabilities of "yes?" Or would you still run off normal attribute/ability ratings, just with everything plus 5 dice? Or would you assume that Abilities and Attributes jump to 5 (or whatever is appropriate), with the physical Attributes staying the same (because the Solar is in the Infernal's body)? I assume that the Solar would be able to use Solar charms, and is unable to use the ones that it is impossible for an Infernal to use (such as holy), but what about mins, particularly Essence mins?

Since Essance seems to come more from experience and supernatural bullshit, could you say that the Solar has access to Essence 5 (while the Solar was probably higher then that in life, i would assume that the Essence 5 cap still applies, since that requires more then just experience) charms? And how would that work with the Mote Pool? Would you assume the same amount of motes, or would you expend the pool to account for the Solar's greater everything? And while the Solar would still obviously be running off Infernal Essence, should the anima banner be the same? Finally, should the Solar get access to the charms the Infernal knows?

(If it makes a difference, assume that the essence reactor hack is in play)
They stay mostly the same? With a few changes to abilities/styles.



LOL no.

You don't get to use Solar charms without a Solar Exaltation. That should be kinda obvious.
The way I assumed it worked is that since the die-bonus from the Background represents you invoking the Past Life's knowledge and experience, the FAS gets that bonus on all their Ability-related rolls while they have control, since the Background itself is just giving you limited access to their skills. Hence a 5-dot Past Life, which is indicated to mean that this was one of the eldes of the Deliberative, is going to be appropriately terrifying and powerful if they take the helm.

My real question is what happens when the Exalt and the Past Life imprint have wildly different skill sets; my aforementioned "they get the bonus" interpretation helps cover this problem to some degree, but still - if a half-feral barbarian Dawn who gets taken over by their warrior-poet Past Life, does that mean said warrior-poet will suddenly have no idea how to write poetry or deliver speeches, just because the PC doesn't have ranks in Performance? That just seems a bit janky to me. Even if they take a penalty for lack of muscle memory or something, a master swordsman shouldn't be suddenly helpless and incompetent just because the body he's using isn't as well-seasoned.

As for them not getting access to Solar Charms... that just doesn't sound right to me. Having a First Age Solar god-tyrant suddenly seize the flesh of your comrade while you're staying at an inn should be fucking terrifying: if said FAS is basically just a mortal in terms of capabilities, then even a Terrestrial Exalt is going to stomp all over them, so the party will just laugh at the poor little fool and then casually knock him out and/or social him into submission. It actively reduces the narrative possibilities inherent in the Background to "hey, maybe it activates while you're in combat and then your enemies casually chump your mind-controlled body!" or "hey, now one of the PCs has to be locked in a cupboard for the next few hours!"

Even assuming your statement is backed by canon, @Broken25, I still disagree.
 
Your elbow is a joint made up of the ulna, radius and the humerus. Super deadly.
Your patella is your kneecap. You can put a huge amount of force into a knee strike, making it quite deadly.
Your clavicle is what supports your shoulder blade, which is what lets us shoulder check people. Not in the same tier as the other two though.
I am aware of all of this. The master named his style Death With Every Bone, not Death With Every Joint. He knew what he meant and, upon being challenged, refused to beat the spirit of his boast to death with its letters. He killed hecklers with, among other things, his upper arm and collarbone. He refused to kill one challenger with his kneecap, because they were an idiot.

But you seemed to be implying I was referencing something specific in relation to "the elbow, the shoulder and the knee." and I have not the faintest idea to what you refer.
 
I am aware of all of this. The master named his style Death With Every Bone, not Death With Every Joint. He knew what he meant and, upon being challenged, refused to beat the spirit of his boast to death with its letters. He killed hecklers with, among other things, his upper arm and collarbone. He refused to kill one challenger with his kneecap, because they were an idiot.

But you seemed to be implying I was referencing something specific in relation to "the elbow, the shoulder and the knee." and I have not the faintest idea to what you refer.
I thought you were making a joke about how those bones are actually really easy to kill with
 
So...no comment on those Bureaucracy rules?

I was hoping vigorous discussion of whether such rules should exist would translate into vigorous discussion of Bureaucracy rules that do exist.
 
So...no comment on those Bureaucracy rules?

I was hoping vigorous discussion of whether such rules should exist would translate into vigorous discussion of Bureaucracy rules that do exist.

I made my suggestion over there.

That said, regarding the core rules: the problem I keep running into is that a system of the sort you articulated feels... unnecessary? I look at them and I say: "I don't see why in the game I would want to resolve anything using this".

I like having rules for how to influence an organization, and yours seem fine; but I just am not feeling the value of the Operations roll.

The way I want to resolve this is to essentially erase the macro-scale versus personal-scale divide; have "personal-scale" actions that are carried out using macro-scale resources, resources that you have to actually acquire. If you want to build a ship then you need laborers and lumber; if you can hire those yourself, fine, otherwise you need to get them from an organization.

For example:

Organizations never roll to make interesting problems disappear. You can't just allocate five successes to win a war unless the table agrees that the war was a tedious distraction from the real meat of the game. But you can allocate five successes to dictate that your organization's armies are very large and well-organized and well-equipped and enthusiastic as you lead them to battle.

Let's say the war isn't interesting. Then why are we rolling at all? Why not just eyeball the opposition and the Solar's abilities and Charms and conclude, yeah, PC is gonna win? If you do roll then it's really fuzzy how exactly the results of the roll contribute.

By contrast, if we explain how (units of Resource) can be used to provide (dots of Command) or similar, and then allow Solar Bureaucracy Charms to make you better at eking out more (units of Resource) from the organization, or better at quickly reallocating those units, or whatever, then I can see more direct value in those Charms.
 
That part just confuses me.
Take a Solar who could learn, say, Dipping Swallow Defense but has not actually learned it. Then, with powerful mental charms, put them under the illusion that they have learned the charm. They might believe that they have learned the charm, but they have not actually learned it.

As for them not getting access to Solar Charms... that just doesn't sound right to me. Having a First Age Solar god-tyrant suddenly seize the flesh of your comrade while you're staying at an inn should be fucking terrifying: if said FAS is basically just a mortal in terms of capabilities, then even a Terrestrial Exalt is going to stomp all over them, so the party will just laugh at the poor little fool and then casually knock him out and/or social him into submission. It actively reduces the narrative possibilities inherent in the Background to "hey, maybe it activates while you're in combat and then your enemies casually chump your mind-controlled body!" or "hey, now one of the PCs has to be locked in a cupboard for the next few hours!"

Even assuming your statement is backed by canon, @Broken25, I still disagree.
They have access to these insignificant things called "Yozi charms". I think they'll manage.

If you can't make an Infernal Exalted terrifying without elder charms then you're going to have a really bad time as a gm.
 
He was thence poisoned at supper, for all were in agreement that he was a disgruntled lunatic.
Now we will never get to know how he intended to kill peoples with the bones of the middle ear....
So...no comment on those Bureaucracy rules?

I was hoping vigorous discussion of whether such rules should exist would translate into vigorous discussion of Bureaucracy rules that do exist.
I wanted to read them and comment, but you posted them in a moment i had no time to do so. Then i forgot to do it.

I might be able to read them now, but don't expect anything coherent from me: i am apparently not very good at coherent. Except when giving feedback actually, so you may expect something coherent.
 
Given I haven't actually read either of them yet.....

I don't know?
They have access to these insignificant things called "Yozi charms". I think they'll manage.

If you can't make an Infernal Exalted terrifying without elder charms then you're going to have a really bad time as a gm.
I understand where he is coming from. When I first asked about it, I was thinking of a fresh out of chargen Exalt that has no idea what they are doing and gets taken over.
 
Once upon a time there was a martial arts sifu who, in a fit of pomposity, decided to name his fighting style 'Death With Every Bone'.

One day a supplicant asked him, "but how can you kill with your ribs?"

In a fit of frustration over having his breakfast interrupted, the old master dashed the supplicant's head against his chest, for he had hardened his body until it was a steel edifice.

Gazing down at the splatter of brain-matter, the master answered, "like so."

Subsequently he was accosted by a succession of such fools, each a student of anatomy, certain they had discovered a bone with which it was entirely impractical to mete out death; the humerus, the clavicle, and in one case, the patella. The master spared that last, dumbfounded by such idiocy.

In each case the master retreated for a short time, before returning to strike down the last heckler with their own challenge.

At last, having slain them all, the master exulted in the supremacy of his art and the silence of his detractors.

He was thence poisoned at supper, for all were in agreement that he was a disgruntled lunatic.
And nobody asked him about the ossicles?

Shame.
 
... there may possibly be a reason I linked those specific things, rather than just the start?
Now I feel dumb.

Probably closer to Kerisgame flavor, from the Solar's PoV, but with less stability. But with an ending closer to the one in Green Sun.

Like, for example, Infernal loses control, Solar comes out, Solar proceeds to be confused, Solar does whatever, stuff happens, and the Infernal wakes up to find his whole coven dead, the city on fire, and himself napping on the king's throne.
 
I made my suggestion over there.

That said, regarding the core rules: the problem I keep running into is that a system of the sort you articulated feels... unnecessary? I look at them and I say: "I don't see why in the game I would want to resolve anything using this".

I like having rules for how to influence an organization, and yours seem fine; but I just am not feeling the value of the Operations roll.

I have some similar doubts, actually. But I found the pro-system arguments upthread pretty convincing. People who make bureaucracy specialists often want to know how well their organization is doing and how effective their leadership is. Not for some specific purpose, as an end in itself.

Also, it gives Bureaucracy Charms something to attach to. A system like this one makes it much easier to represent how the stereotypical Eclipse helps the stereotypical Dawn fight a war.

Any thoughts on the first half of the project, which is dedicated to actions characters can take?

By contrast, if we explain how (units of Resource) can be used to provide (dots of Command) or similar, and then allow Solar Bureaucracy Charms to make you better at eking out more (units of Resource) from the organization, or better at quickly reallocating those units, or whatever, then I can see more direct value in those Charms.

That could also work, and I did consider doing something like that. I went this way instead because it seemed simpler, and because I really don't like how resources-fiddling stuff worked for Craft.

I might be able to read them now, but don't expect anything coherent from me: i am apparently not very good at coherent. Except when giving feedback actually, so you may expect something coherent.

I thought you were plenty coherent on Craft. I look forward to it.
 
Take a Solar who could learn, say, Dipping Swallow Defense but has not actually learned it. Then, with powerful mental charms, put them under the illusion that they have learned the charm. They might believe that they have learned the charm, but they have not actually learned it.

They have access to these insignificant things called "Yozi charms". I think they'll manage.

If you can't make an Infernal Exalted terrifying without elder charms then you're going to have a really bad time as a gm.
Sorry, mea culpa. I derped my reading comprehension and thought that @Broken25's post meant that if your Past Life takes over, it's locked out of using any Charms; most of my work with the Past Life background has been with a quest with multiple Solars that have dots in it.
 
That makes a lot of sense. I do want to point out, though, that the 5 dot version is explicitly a super experienced and old Solar who mastered practically everything.
... Like getting +5 dice on their rolls? In a shared specialization, that can get up to 18 dice before putting actual effort into it.

Although, maybe the reason only Fiends can learn the Solar charms, but no other Caste can is to give Fiends a unfair advantage over every other Caste, because Ebon Dragon.
No. It's because they're the Eclipse corollary, so they were given the Eclipse anima powers (made ED-ish).
 
No. It's because they're the Eclipse corollary, so they were given the Eclipse anima powers (made ED-ish).
Except Abyssals have a charm that let's them learn Solar charms, Solars have a charms to learn both Abyssal charms and Infernal charms, but there is no charm for Infernals to learn Solar Charms.

(I know how Eclipses work, but this is the point I was making)
 
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