Get up there + Get this Charm + get the effective-vision-distance-increasing Awareness Charm (does one exist for Sids, BTW?) seems like a combo, even if not the most complicated one. (Lowercase-c combo, not uppercase-C, though, I have to admit.)

Is "get in swording range" a combo involving Iron Whirlwind Attack? This is not some kind of arcane combination arising from using five different sourcebooks by different authors to create an unintended effect or something, it's literally using the effect exactly as designed: hit everything you can see twice.

If you don't want to take the absolute worst-case scenario of the Creation Slaying Oblivion Kick, let's go with the Realm-Slaying Oblivion Kick, and instead of Falafel one-shotting Creation it's Shajah Holok one-shotting the Scavenger Lands. Is this still something that should happen? Should this be in the game?

I do agree such system elements are undesirable. But if the idea does dawn upon some of the players mid-campaign, Jenna's approach seems to be not that bad. I also don't think the existence of such an element is a justification for metaphorically crucifying an author.

If you write a bunch of setting-breaking mechanics then say the correct approach to the existence of these things is to assume everything works out anyway and to handwave a justification, it doesn't look very good, does it? Past a certain point, the reaction you get is "pull the other one, mate" instead of "okay, as long as it isn't too egregious".

Anything meaningfully threatening by definition does run the risk of actually killing at least one of the PCs, usually with a non-negligible probability; so, basically, lethality. To me it seems like a contradiction - this desire to have lethality but not have it at the same time.

You need to have sufficient threat to 'sell' the enemy being actually threatening rather than a target dummy that is there to take a fall so that you can appear to have won a great victory against a terrifying foe without actually ever having been in any danger whatsoever. In D&D terms, you want an equivalent-CR enemy to apply sufficient threat so as to correctly engage the PCs and force them to use their high-level spells and class abilities to survive and win, with the probability of victory being high to assured if they do bring their A-game.

You do not want that enemy to be as threatening as 1HD giant rats to level 20 adventurers, where they do not have to bring their A-game, or even their C-game. This is bad on the narrative level, for it ruins suspension of disbelief; it is impossible to take an apparent peer enemy seriously if you know that they actually have the difficulty rating of a 1HD giant rat. This is also bad on the gameplay level, because rat-killing is not challenging, interesting, or in any way fun.

Ah, good old EvE-style pod-killing, even in a situation where not spending that flurry on someone more threatening could mean losing the combat.

There is no reasonable circumstance where spending one action in a flurry (costing your other actions in the flurry one die of penalty if you include that extra action) to confirm a kill will lose you a combat. If you are in that situation you were losing anyway, and would lose on the edge of a slightly unlucky dice roll.

Ending all incapacitations with deaths is one of the way to ensure your players will never get to enjoy iconic heroic-fantasy moments such as, as one of the writers mentioned being "captured and dropped naked into a gladiator pit to fight some warlord's pet demon" and proceeding to regain freedom one way or another. Or how about looking for other fun options of non-lethal outcomes provided in all sorts of GM advice books or surely encountered almost on any gaming forum in some thread.

"Everyone you fight is a Terminator sent by the Wyld Hunter" is kinda hand-tying for the GM.

Yes, and this is part of the setting: you are the Devil incarnate, a harbinger of annihilation, an existential threat to existence that must be exterminated for the world to live. The state religion of the world hegemon wants to kill you for existing. If I have one of its loyal inquisitor-monks keep you alive out of gentlemanly politeness after having beat you into an insensate heap, do I look like I'm being internally consistent with the setting?

Would it not be infinitely superior for it not to be so utterly easy to beat said existential threat to existence into an insensate heap with one chargen monk and several goons?
 
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Placing a Solar Shard inside a Monstrance is NOT enough to convert it to an Abyssal shard. See Dimming the Light for what it takes to convert a Solar into an Abyssal, and in the Abyssal Splat book it talks about how Solar shards were converted onto Abyssal ones. Sure, maybe if you took it to the Mouth in the Underworld the Neverborn could snatch it, and they (more accurately, the Deathlords) will likely send people after if they find out, but they can't just straight up switch it to Abyssal, especially if it is in Creation. If they had that much power, that they could just grab an Exaltation captured in Creation and immediately convert it, then they would have already won.
But a Monstrance can't hold an exaltation unless it's an abyssal.

Moreover, there aren't any captured exaltations at the moment. That's one of the big points of the game. What are you arguing?
 
I am getting tired of this. Your position (IE, that men are women enjoy equal rights everywhere in creation) is inane.

Look, discuss this with ES if you dare.
My position is that you've given me no reason to think sex-based discrimination makes sense in a world where individuals with superpowers are equally common among males and females.

Also, no, I won't discuss something with ES just because you can't actually argue your position beyond "well it happens in real life". Exalted isn't real life. Unless you want to tell me where I can find people who have superpowers and start get colored auras when they're worked up? Seriously, don't try to make other people argue for you. Think for yourself.

Oh, and don't blatantly lie about what I've said, which has been repeated and unanswered questions of "why" and "what if" and literally nothing else.
Why? What is the basis for the sexism?
Why would it persist when an ill-tempered person of the oppressed sex can spontaneously become a super-soldier and fuck up all kinds of shit?
Why should this be included in the setting of a game that is played by people who are not in the Bronze Age? What does it add to the setting that can't be added by something that's not sexist?
And what happens when they run into one of the plethora of female gods and other spirits, and their god gets his ass kicked? Or the inverse?
 
Yes, and this is part of the setting: you are the Devil incarnate, a harbinger of annihilation, an existential threat to existence that must be exterminated for the world to live. The state religion of the world hegemon wants to kill you for existing. If I have one of its loyal inquisitor-monks keep you alive out of gentlemanly politeness after having beat you into an insensate heap, do I look like I'm being internally consistent with the setting?

Would it not be infinitely superior for it not to be so utterly easy to beat said existential threat to existence into an insensate heap with one chargen monk and several goons?

I think Vicky meant it isn't always necessary to make the antagonist the Wyld Hunt.
 
"Everyone you fight is a Terminator sent by the Wyld Hunter" is kinda hand-tying for the GM.


This seems like a bit of a red herring to me. If the problem is that the system can be overly deadly, then the problem doesn't just arise if everyone is trying to kill you,it arises if anyone is trying to kill you. If any dragon-blooded who puts even a few decent charms can kill you (or non-exalted with the right tactics) the the GM has to insure that no one ever tries to kill you. I can believe that not every single person you fight would try to kill you, I can't believe that noone you fight would every try to kill you.
 
My position is that you've given me no reason to think sex-based discrimination makes sense in a world where individuals with superpowers are equally common among males and females.

Because Creation is huge.

There is plenty of space for a bunch of sexists in Creation, you can have matriarchal and patriarchal societies in Creation that have never seen a single Exalt. Like, the Realm is sexist in canon (There is a glass ceiling if you're a man, because the Realm has something of a history with powerful women), of course this doesn't really apply if you are Exalted, but to the mortals of the Realm it is very real.

There is also Coral in the West, which is also sexist due to the Storm Mothers. Unmarried women are property of their fathers and married women are the property of their husbands.

Bam, two places.

Also, no, I won't discuss something with ES just because you can't actually argue your position beyond "well it happens in real life". Exalted isn't real life. Unless you want to tell me where I can find people who have superpowers and start get colored auras when they're worked up? Seriously, don't try to make other people argue for you. Think for yourself.

The Realm, Coral and An-Teng.
 
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My position is that you've given me no reason to think sex-based discrimination makes sense in a world where individuals with superpowers are equally common among males and females.

Also, no, I won't discuss something with ES just because you can't actually argue your position beyond "well it happens in real life". Exalted isn't real life. Unless you want to tell me where I can find people who have superpowers and start get colored auras when they're worked up? Seriously, don't try to make other people argue for you. Think for yourself.

Oh, and don't blatantly lie about what I've said, which has been repeated and unanswered questions of "why" and "what if" and literally nothing else.
As I believe he (or someone else brought up), people with superpowers are still incredibly rare as opposed to people without, and said superpowered people can still be sexist. It's one thing to suggest that Creation wouldn't have any kind of overall sexism, another to suggest that every single city and village has gender equality.

Like, you can't seriously be proposing that a random Threshold village of 200 people which has never seen an Exalt before and only interacts with a handful of minor Gods is somehow going to automatically be a paragon of gender equality. It might be, or it might have some cultural legacy of sexism. I could easily imagine a larger citystate that does have institutional discrimination where the Exalts are just deemed to be not part of the discriminated gender/race/caste, because that's exactly the weird kind of doublethink that historical civilizations have done all the damn time in the face of stuff like that.

And the game should have sexism present for the same reason it should have racism present and classism present and casteism present, because they're injustices that make sense for the world and Exalted is supposed to, among other things, be a game about combatting systemic injustice as much as injust rulers.
 
Because Creation is huge.

There is plenty of space for a bunch of sexists in Creation, you can have matriarchal and patriarchal societies in Creation that have never seen a single Exalt. Like, the Realm is sexist in canon (There is a glass ceiling if you're a man, because the Realm has something of a history with powerful women), of course this doesn't really apply if you are Exalted, but to the mortals of the Realm it is very real.
Why would the Realm risk creating bitterness in one of its potential sources of its primary force? That's dumb.

There is also Coral in the West, which is also sexist due to the Storm Mothers.
Cool, you actually gave a reason for a culture to be sexist. Which is, I would like to point out, is basically that spirits socially engineered it (because reasons).

Unmarried women are property of their fathers and married women are the property of their husbands.
And the manifestation is dumb.

It's one thing to suggest that Creation wouldn't have any kind of overall sexism, another to suggest that every single city and village has gender equality.
And I was asking why a sexist society should be present, in response to "it's a Bronze Age setting".
I never touched on individual sexism.
 
My position is that you've given me no reason to think sex-based discrimination makes sense in a world where individuals with superpowers are equally common among males and females.
Did Eleanor of Aquitaine suddenly rewrite her society to become a feminist utopia? Did Empress Lu Zhi? Himiko of Yamataikoku? There have been plenty of extremely powerful, influential females in tons of societies, and it turns out that even once you put a woman in power, gender roles and sexism don't suddenly vanish. Why would they?
 
Did Eleanor of Aquitaine suddenly rewrite her society to become a feminist utopia? Did Empress Lu Zhi? Himiko of Yamataikoku? There have been plenty of extremely powerful, influential females in tons of societies, and it turns out that even once you put a woman in power, gender roles and sexism don't suddenly vanish. Why would they?
Why would they exist in the first place when Exalts (and spirits) have always been as likely male as female? Unless there's something immediately pushing roles on the society, how does it make sense that such an attitude survives the existence of Exalted and spirits?
It's not "suddenly vanishing", even just in the time since the rise of the Realm. It's centuries or millenia.
 
Why would the Realm risk creating bitterness in one of its potential sources of its primary force? That's dumb.
Searching for a quote right now.


Cool, you actually gave a reason for a culture to be sexist. Which is, I would like to point out, is basically that spirits socially engineered it (because reasons).

Not really. Storm Mothers don't like women on ships therefore people don't take women on ships because that'd be idiotic. It's like the primary reason that the Dereth exist.


And the manifestation is dumb.
Ok, I see no reason why but sure.
 
Did Eleanor of Aquitaine suddenly rewrite her society to become a feminist utopia? Did Empress Lu Zhi? Himiko of Yamataikoku?
Did any of these come from societies where men and women are equally likely to enjoy superpowers and a nearly-worldwide religion proclaiming who they are and what they do to be the definition of moral virtue?

(I'll give you a hint: No. Find a non-bullshit analogy.)
 
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Why would the Realm risk creating bitterness in one of its potential sources of its primary force? That's dumb.

Oh no, it's not that an individual man or woman can't be equally worthy or capable, says the woman from the Realm. It's just that men are sensitive and aren't as responsible as women. After all, a man leaves his family house for the sake of love, or to marry to benefit his house - but once married into a house, he must also have loyalty to his new house. And this divide means that men must always war with their emotions, because duty and love are not always in accordance with them. This means that men are often the best poets and the best artists, but this aharmonious divide often splits their spirits and as a result they're often just not as practical or good at management as a solid dependable woman who was born into a House. Woman draw more from the Earth, and Water, after all, and that makes them more grounded and practical then men who have more Fire and Air in their nature (and between them, they combine to make the Wood of a marriage that brings new life). And of course, it does have to be mentioned that when bloodlines are so very important, of course you want to ensure that the female line is prioritised. After all, a child takes more after their mother, because they lie beneath the mother's heart for nine or fifteen months, while a man just contributes for a night.

So, certainly, a man can be a perfectly functional leader, and there have been many great male generals. It's just that... well, a man is more of a risk. You never quite know where his loyalties lie if he married into a House, you know? And of course, men are just more emotionally sensitive and vulnerable to pain as they don't go through childbirth, which toughens up the Earthen spirit of a woman, and - while it is an unfair stereotype - it's not unknown for men to become overcome with either foolhardiness or cowardice on the battlefield and either go charging off or run away. Women are just more trustworthy when it comes to holding the line as soldiers, rather than warriors or some threshold barbarian.

It's not really discrimination against men, you realise. It's just the facts of life, you know. The Elemental Dragons made men and women different, and it would go against their will and their purpose to act incautiously and fail to respect the limitations and natural talents of both sexes.
 
And I was asking why a sexist society should be present, in response to "it's a Bronze Age setting".
I never touched on individual sexism.
Because there are thousands/millions of different societies in Creation, and given that overall we're talking about a fairly low level of tech, very tradition-based, we would expect some of them to be sexist one way or another, the same way IRL some Bronze Age societies were sexist? I mean, I gave both a Doylist and Watsonian answer for why it makes sense for there to be some sexist societies in Creation.

Exaltations just aren't very common, and Exalts probably exist in some kind of special class anyway as far as pretty much all societies are concerned, so your assertion that somehow sexism wouldn't exist because extremely rarely someone of the "inferior" gender would get superpowers doesn't really make sense. Gods or Elementals are far more likely to shape perception on these things since they're immortal and going to be around for the generations it takes to shape these kinds of things, but there's not much reason to presume that Gods/Elementals are any less discriminatory than humans are.

Said sexism doesn't need to be overt: the Brides of Ahlat imply the said God is pretty sexist, but you're not exactly likely to see anyone protesting it.

The problem here is that you seem to be suggesting that sexism = oppression, while historically it's always been pitched as just knowing your place in the world. Random Threshold Society X is far more likely to claim that women are just good at A while men are good at B than it is to say that one gender sucks and should be kept in servitude. Sure, someone might Exalt and change that, but they're probably just going to be accepted at special category C and care about about doing thing D than actively fighting about gender roles.
 
Not really. Storm Mothers don't like women on ships therefore people don't take women on ships because that'd be idiotic. It's like the primary reason that the Dereth exist.
It may not be intentional societal engineering, but the Storm Mothers used their abilities to shape the society. They have shaped the society so it fits their desires.

Ok, I see no reason why but sure.
"We can't take you on ships so you're property" is not a sensible view.

We've disagreed about this before and while I respect your position I find nothing about it compelling.

it's always been pitched as just knowing your place in the world
FTFY. It's not just historical. And you definitely misunderstand my view of sexism.

the same way IRL some Bronze Age societies
Who gives a fuck about the real-life Bronze Age? They didn't have super-powers, or supernatural beings wandering around.
 
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Who gives a fuck about the real-life Bronze Age? They didn't have super-powers, or supernatural beings wandering around.
Because much of Creation doesn't have super-powers or that many supernatural beings wandering around. You could literally apply pretty much the exact same arguments you're making to any other form of discrimination against people within your society, or slavery, because your slaves might Exalt. Most supernatural entities just don't care about this shit because they're more interested in getting worship or material goods or any of the other things that humans provide.

You're assuming that the folks with power to do this stuff care about liberal values once they're no longer bound by them and have gotten to a position where they can make a difference. That strikes me as a weird assumption.
 
Yes, and this is part of the setting: you are the Devil incarnate, a harbinger of annihilation, an existential threat to existence that must be exterminated for the world to live. The state religion of the world hegemon wants to kill you for existing. If I have one of its loyal inquisitor-monks keep you alive out of gentlemanly politeness after having beat you into an insensate heap, do I look like I'm being internally consistent with the setting?

Would it not be infinitely superior for it not to be so utterly easy to beat said existential threat to existence into an insensate heap with one chargen monk and several goons?
Without touching upon the combat balance discussion, it's worth noting that the Wyld Hunt do in fact occasionally capture Solars alive. It's obviously not their prefered approach given how unsafe it is, but the Empress has need of Anathema to sacrifice take with her into the Imperial Manse, never to be seen again. Ex3 actually introduced an Immaculate stronghold in the Threshold that serves as a temporary prison for Anathema until they can be transfered to the Blessed Isle, so you can have the ultimate jail-break arc (dfficulty: Insanity+).

Still, an edge case.
 
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Of course, the real reason to have sexist societies in creation is so that players who feel strongly about the topic can have fun leading a gender-equality crusade.
 
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Why would they exist in the first place when Exalts (and spirits) have always been as likely male as female? Unless there's something immediately pushing roles on the society, how does it make sense that such an attitude survives the existence of Exalted and spirits?
Why wouldn't they? What reason do you think sexism has for existing? Because the small fraction of the population that is Earth's Napoleons and Qin Shu Huangs tends to be more male than female, and thus imposed sexism on the world?

Sexism was not some conspiracy by the people at the top. Its various forms are complex sets of reactions to material conditions. Exalts get a "get out of jail free" card, sure, but for the vast majority of the population those material conditions still apply and would lead to results much like the real world. Why would the gods care that mortals are sexist? Do you care that cattle are treated in an extremely sexist fashion? Why would the absolute elite of society care that peasants are sexist? Plenty of great historical leaders have clawed their way out from the absolute lowest place on the totem pole and then turned right back around and kicked the ladder away. Toyotomi Hideyoshi springs to mind, but there are plenty of others.
 
Look, bluntly, sexism is part of human existence so not actually including it in some form is moral cowardice.

On the other hand, Exalted is a fantasy RPG setting so it should be an interesting form of sexism which gives plot hooks to play things off. Preferably it should also provide some interesting counterfactual forms, as well, because this is fantasy and this is the right place for interesting counterfactuals.

So, of course there's space in Exalted for "oh my god this is literally how the Athenians did it wow those guys were super sexist". But there should also be places where there's sumptory laws which forbid women from wearing thin clothes or bright colours, because as per the teachings of their peacock-god women are plain and men are brightly coloured and should dress to attract attention, or else they look like girls - and so there's tonnes of pressure on men to look good. Or places where men are expected to be florid and express their feelings and bond while women should be stoic and repress their feelings. Or, as I describe, the soft patronising female-favouring sexism of the Realm, where handsome men who advance quickly get jokes behind their back implying they slept their way to the position and it tends to manifest in men having to work harder and do more to demonstrate their loyalty to their House and women getting more attention paid to them since, after all, a man might go and marry a rival House.

(Also, there should roughly as many places where men are worse off as places where women are worse off, so player character groups can alternate between the female characters getting annoyed at local customs and the male characters getting annoyed when they're travelling.)
 
The idea that the remote possibility of Exaltation, of all things, would be a significant influence on the social fabric of a random Eastern kingdom or Icewalker tribe is bizarre. I just don't follow the argument. What if some of these societies have never actually seen an Exalt? Why would it have any effect on them?
 
My weigh-in on the sexism thing is almost entirely Doylist: if you're decently certain that introducing a sexist society to your party won't end in fire and blood, and even more certain you can handle the subject competently as a DM, then go right ahead.

If not, just let it be.
 
The idea that the remote possibility of Exaltation, of all things, would be a significant influence on the social fabric of a random Eastern kingdom or Icewalker tribe is bizarre. I just don't follow the argument. What if some of these societies have never actually seen an Exalt? Why would it have any effect on them?

Well, mmm, remember the range of "human" is broader in Exalted.

I tend to depict Icewalkers as fairly androgynous - they're all big, blocky and adapted for cold weather, and the men and women are basically the same size because they've both got layers of extra fat stopping their organs literally freezing solid. People from warmer climates often find it hard to tell whether an icewalker in a loincloth is male or female, because when they're both barrel-shaped from the layers of fat it's a bit of a challenge.

So, mmm, you're probably going to have some places where there's even less sexual dimorphism than IRL humans and other places (like, say, the land of the peacock-beastmen) where there's much, much more.
 
Well, mmm, remember the range of "human" is broader in Exalted.

I tend to depict Icewalkers as fairly androgynous - they're all big, blocky and adapted for cold weather, and the men and women are basically the same size because they've both got layers of extra fat stopping their organs literally freezing solid. People from warmer climates often find it hard to tell whether an icewalker in a loincloth is male or female, because when they're both barrel-shaped from the layers of fat it's a bit of a challenge.

So, mmm, you're probably going to have some places where there's even less sexual dimorphism than IRL humans and other places (like, say, the land of the peacock-beastmen) where there's much, much more.

Oh I totally agree that these societies will vary widely and unpredictably. I just don't get the idea that Exaltation = no sexism anywhere.
 
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