Which is a shame, 'cause there's a ton of good stuff in here.
That's . . . actually an approach that is part of the problem that causes said bad reputation. From what I heard about SV, its atmosphere is often described as "behaving like a jerk is given a free pass if you also happened to post something useful/coherent/interesting"; you know, the House MD sort of phenomenon. From personal experience, this or some sort of similar attitude seems to actually be the case.

I mean, there's also thirty page arguments over basically nothing
Guilty as charged. Well, at least some of the time, anyway.

Contrast this with the OP forums, where people who are neutral or otherwise whole-heatedly support the direction the game is going, congregate. A fair smattering of the old hand 2e fans stay here and elsewhere for a reason.
Actually, I did originally come here in search of 2e (or, more accurately, 2½e) fans, and you're one of the two I've found, while everyone else seems to have some edition of their own making. ^_^

On a more serious note, whatever The Reason originally was, seems to have moved to the sidelines, since by now the tilts in the separated populations are self-reiforcing:
If MSVETO reports are to be fully believed, OPP and RPG.net is biased against the old-edition proponents (enforcing bans more harshly on them), while on SV is biased against new-edition proponents (making it acceptable to make personal attacks against the 3e authors, their work and/or the preference towards their work). At which point both groups get a big disincentive to show up in 'enemy territory', as mentioned multiple times in this thread.
 
Actually, I did originally come here in search of 2e (or, more accurately, 2½e) fans, and you're one of the two I've found, while everyone else seems to have some edition of their own making. ^_^

In the face of 2E's rules, there are only three approaches:
a) Houserule the fuck out of everything that is broken, explicitly, because those rules are broken.
b) "Creatively interpret" rules, apply mechanics selectively, fudge as much as possible and otherwise houserule the fuck out of everything, just by stealth and not explicitly.
c) Do not play, because the time/effort investment is too large relative to the return in fun.

There is no instance I know of where someone both runs with exact, strict application of rules-as-written and has not had their game blow up (reduce to paranoia combat, etc) due to mechanical problems.
 
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Actually, I did originally come here in search of 2e (or, more accurately, 2½e) fans, and you're one of the two I've found, while everyone else seems to have some edition of their own making.

There really isn't such a thing as a 2nd Edition Exalted fan. There's really only 3E fans and people disappointed in 3E. Probably why relations are acrimonious, actually. :V
 
In the face of 2E's rules, there are only three approaches:
a) Houserule the fuck out of everything that is broken, explicitly, because those rules are broken.
b) "Creatively interpret" rules, apply mechanics selectively, fudge as much as possible and otherwise houserule the fuck out of everything, just by stealth and not explicitly.
c) Do not play, because the time/effort investment is too large relative to the return in fun.

There is no instance I know of where someone both runs with exact, strict application of rules-as-written and has not had their game blow up (reduce to paranoia combat, etc) due to mechanical problems.
The game I played in (2½e) had its share of problems, but full-scale paranoia combat wasn't one of them, and it did not involve houserules. It did invovle hading to interpret what exactly some phrases written White-Wolf-speak meant (e.g. precise effects of Sagacious Reading of Intent). Probably because the GM wasn't trying to run his game like a Tabletop Fantasy Edition of EvE Online. Yes, combat looked scary, but it was 'fantasy swordsmen heroically duking it out' level of scary, not 'WWII/Viet Nam/Korean War firefight' level of scary. Yes, I regretted taking Martial Arts when I looked at Mêlée/Resistance builds, but it wasn't a Rocks Fall, I Die experience, in fact I was in the top half of the party combat-wise, according to the GM (I think I still have insufficient data to form a final verdict of my own on the matter).

Do you consider @Shyft to be doing stealth-houseruling in the sections where he isn't doing so explicitly (such as his creation of a Bureacracy System)? E.g. in the whole Charms, combat and social combat section, which is usually the one that is the largest source of complaints about Exalted 2e and 2½e, and where he seems to have an agenda of showing people how 2.0 is meant to be played?

People been calling Holden's behavior terrible since well before 3e even had a kickstarter, and that's because Holden frequently being awful to other people is an objective fact.

It's not because he writes for 3e. It's because he's a jerk.
Wasn't talking about comments on his public behaviour; was more focusing on things like calling various Exalted authors (not just 3e, but also those with whose approaches people disagreed) morons and other words that have a connotation different than 'this person acted like a jerk towards me'.
 
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The game I played in (2½e) had its share of problems, but full-scale paranoia combat wasn't one of them, and it did not involve houserules. It did invovle hading to interpret what exactly some phrases written White-Wolf-speak meant (e.g. precise effects of Sagacious Reading of Intent). Probably because the GM wasn't trying to run his game like a Tabletop Fantasy Edition of EvE Online. Yes, combat looked scary, but it was 'fantasy swordsmen heroically duking it out' level of scary, not 'WWII/Viet Nam/Korean War firefight' level of scary. Yes, I regretted taking Martial Arts when I looked at Mêlée/Resistance builds, but it wasn't a Rocks Fall, I Die experience, in fact I was in the top half of the party combat-wise, according to the GM (I think I still have insufficient data to form a final verdict of my own on the matter).

Were you ever attacked by an Extra Action/Grand Killstick spammer, a surprise attack user, a poison/badtouch user, a ranged kiter, a clincher or anyone using the automatic-surprise five man rule?

Did anyone attempt to push their social combat agenda by wearing down your willpower in order to get you to the point where you were unable to resist any/all social combat effects?

Do you consider @Shyft to be doing stealth-houseruling in the sections where he isn't doing so explicitly (such as his creation of a Bureacracy System)? E.g. in the whole Charms, combat and social combat section, which is usually the one that is the largest source of complaints about Exalted 2e and 2½e, and where he seems to have an agenda of showing people how 2.0 is meant to be played?

That's an odd question. I don't know, I've never been in his game.

I can say that if in a hypothetical Exalted 2 game and none of the things I mentioned above happened, then yes, the GM is engaging in houseruling to prevent the game from running into mechanical problems, regardless of whether they claim they're doing so or not.
 
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People been calling Holden's behavior terrible since well before 3e even had a kickstarter, and that's because Holden frequently being awful to other people is an objective fact.

It's not because he writes for 3e. It's because he's a jerk.
People have been calling Holden's behaviour terrible since before he was an Ink Monkey. I mean, even now I still respect his professional ability, but as damning with faint praise as it is, his conduct as a freelancer is actually a step up, according to the old hands. Before he spoke in a professional capacity, he was one of the old WW board's loudest flame warriors.
 
Were you ever attacked by an Extra Action/Grand Killstick spammer, a surprise attack user, a poison/badtouch user, a ranged kiter, a clincher or anyone using the automatic-surprise five man rule?

Did anyone attempt to push their social combat agenda by wearing down your willpower in order to get you to the point where you were unable to resist any/all social combat effects?


I can say that if in a hypothetical Exalted 2 game and none of the things I mentioned above happened, then yes, the GM is engaging in houseruling to prevent the game from running into mechanical problems, regardless of whether they claim they're doing so or not.
No, and I wasn't attacked by Kejack Chejop either. As I said, the GM wasn't trying to run Exalted as a version of EvE Online: The Fantasy Tabletop.
I've been attacked by a Grand Killstick brute, a (short-)ranged Unblockable Attack guy, and was in a five-man situation where I disabled one of the five before the first attack against me. I was once in a situation where I through my own carelessness positioned my character such that an enemy was directly in the spot the fifth man usually takes, and suffered for it (while fighting off the aforementioned grand killstick brute in front of me).
For all the flaws, my GM is not trying make killing PCs his personal goal for the campaign.

That's an odd question. I don't know, I've never been in his game.
I meant based on the many dissections of the way Charms work that he has written in this very thread. That's why I pointed specifically to the Charms section and the other topics he touched upon.
 
I meant based on the many dissections of the way Charms work that he has written in this very thread. That's why I pointed specifically to the Charms section and the other topics he touched upon.
Shyft's essays on Charms stem from a deep systemic knowledge of 2e and the background behind it, that allows Shyft to understand and articulate what the text is trying to do. This necessarily also includes where the text fails to execute its goals and should be discarded or revised as a result. As I recall, you and me have discussed this very thing not too long ago, and @Shyft confirmed the above or something like it. I've tagged him in case he feels the need to correct me, but I will be extremely surprised if he does.

So in that sense, yes, Shyft absolutely does houserule 2e, explicitly or implicitly.
 
Shyft's essays on Charms stem from a deep systemic knowledge of 2e and the background behind it, that allows Shyft to understand and articulate what the text is trying to do. This necessarily also includes where the text fails to execute its goals and should be discarded or revised as a result. As I recall, you and me have discussed this very thing not too long ago, and @Shyft confirmed the above or something like it. I've tagged him in case he feels the need to correct me, but I will be extremely surprised if he does.

So in that sense, yes, Shyft absolutely does houserule 2e, explicitly or implicitly.
Eh, I found some of Shyft's answers in that subthread to be ambiguous, so I ultimately refrained from cementing conclusions.
But I do recall Shyft saying that he runs pure 2.0 to teach people how to play Exalted, and that any decisions about whether one should change something in one's campaign should come after that. Or something like that. And yeah, I am, as always, hoping he might reply.
 
I have been called, repeatedly, and now I arrive.

@Imrix is essentially correct in that I deliberately steer 2nd edition while pointing out what is and is not broken. So yes, this is a form of houseruling. I do not go out of my way to say 'Characters start with [Stamina] ox bodies'. I Instead go "Characters that do more than 7 dice of raw damage should be rare especially to start'.

Elaborating on the common 'arguments'.
  1. A player decides that their enjoyment is contingent on the world acting in a believable, internally consistent manner. Assuming parity of information, he should be able to expect that everyone around him optimizes with equal facility, and that only optimal strategies survive to become 'Gameplay'. This is what the player wants, mind you.
  2. A player or critic of the system declares that because X abuse can happen, and that it is an Optimal Strategy, it must happen. Because it must happen, it creates an unwelcome gameplay environment. This is essentially Murphy's Law in design. 5 mortals + sledgehammers can kill a solar, ergo, solars with anti-hammer defenses survive to meet the PCs. This is a thought-experiment, and exists largely if not solely to illustrate that X is broken and must be fixed. It is not (necessarily) advice for play.
 
No, and I wasn't attacked by Kejack Chejop either. As I said, the GM wasn't trying to run Exalted as a version of EvE Online: The Fantasy Tabletop.

Despite how I like to play Eve Online because I enjoy reveling in ruthlessness, neither was I, and yet, my very first Exalted 2 test game ended in a TPK.

I've been attacked by a Grand Killstick brute, a (short-)ranged Unblockable Attack guy, and was in a five-man situation where I disabled one of the five before the first attack against me. I was once in a situation where I through my own carelessness positioned my character such that an enemy was directly in the spot the fifth man usually takes, and suffered for it (while fighting off the aforementioned grand killstick brute in front of me).

Lucky you that the fifth man didn't clinch you then. Or didn't have a sledgehammer. Or a poisoned weapon. Or damage-adder Charms.

For all the flaws, my GM is not trying make killing PCs his personal goal for the campaign.

He doesn't have to in order to kill you, is the entire problem. You got lucky, or your GM was deliberately keeping these things from the hostiles' playbook so that you all don't, y'know, die.

I meant based on the many dissections of the way Charms work that he has written in this very thread. That's why I pointed specifically to the Charms section and the other topics he touched upon.

He ninja'd me here, so I'll just point to his post.
 
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Despite how I like to play Eve Online because I enjoy reveling in ruthlessness, neither was I, and yet, my very first Exalted 2 test game ended in a TPK.
I guess our opinions are both coloured by our experiences. Though I do think we also have different experiences because we have different definitions of trying to kill the PCs (below).

Lucky you that the fifth man didn't clinch you then. Or didn't have a sledgehammer. Or a poisoned weapon. Or damage-adder Charms.
He doesn't have to in order to kill you, is the entire problem. You got lucky, or your GM was deliberately keeping these things from the hostiles' playbook so that you all don't, y'know, die.
Yes. Because the GM wasn't making the death of my PC his objective.
If you (generic you) deliberately point a gun at someone's skull and pull the trigger in real life, you're going to have a hard time proving to the court that you didn't intend to kill the target.
Likewise, if a GM pulls out high-lethality options like one of the most damaging weapons in the game, or the venoms of trans-über-Australian creatures inhabiting Creation, or a Solar-level damage booster, in an early test of the game, then I have a hard time saying this had nothing to do with the objectives the GM set for him/herself. One just doesn't design a dungeon for Level 20 characters filling it with Level 60 mobs.
A GM knowing no restraint thorwing everything in the book at the PCs is exactly the sort of gameplay that reminds me of EvE (both as experienced personally and as explained by people who spent longer playing it), and more of PvP than of PvE actually.


@Imrix is essentially correct in that I deliberately steer 2nd edition while pointing out what is and is not broken. So yes, this is a form of houseruling. I do not go out of my way to say 'Characters start with [Stamina] ox bodies'. I Instead go "Characters that do more than 7 dice of raw damage should be rare especially to start'.
Hmm. In my worldview (and of those whom I talked to about houserules in my gaming career before), "Characters that do more than 7 dice of raw damage should be rare especially to start" is a matter of campaign design, not of game engine design, and I tend to view houseruling as something applicable to the latter, while 'steering' would apply to mostly the former. Oh well, I sit informed about the terminology differences.
 
Yes. Because the GM wasn't making the death of my PC his objective.
If you (generic you) deliberately point a gun at someone's skull and pull the trigger in real life, you're going to have a hard time proving to the court that you didn't intend to kill the target.
True. That has sweet fuck all to do with Chung's point, which is that Exalted 2e makes it very easy to kill players accidentally. "Five guys with sledgehammers/grappling skills/some kind of poison/basic damage magic*" does not look like a lethal threat when players are presented as heroic demigods, but it is unless those players invest in being paranoia-OK, and that's a problem.

* Not Solar-level damage adders, that's a strawman of your own invention.
 
@Imrix is essentially correct in that I deliberately steer 2nd edition while pointing out what is and is not broken. So yes, this is a form of houseruling. I do not go out of my way to say 'Characters start with [Stamina] ox bodies'. I Instead go "Characters that do more than 7 dice of raw damage should be rare especially to start'.

Yes. Such rare antagonists as "a dude with Strength 3 and an axe, who does +8L".
 
Clarification then- I err on the side 7 or so post-soak damage. Which is to say, I generally aim for (and can do so because of extensive reading/investigation), damage numbers that end up around 3-7d if they get past soak.
 
Yes. Because the GM wasn't making the death of my PC his objective.
If you (generic you) deliberately point a gun at someone's skull and pull the trigger in real life, you're going to have a hard time proving to the court that you didn't intend to kill the target.
Likewise, if a GM pulls out high-lethality options like one of the most damaging weapons in the game, or the venoms of trans-über-Australian creatures inhabiting Creation, or a Solar-level damage booster, in an early test of the game, then I have a hard time saying this had nothing to do with the objectives the GM set for him/herself. One just doesn't design a dungeon for Level 20 characters filling it with Level 60 mobs.
A GM knowing no restraint thorwing everything in the book at the PCs is exactly the sort of gameplay that reminds me of EvE (both as experienced personally and as explained by people who spent longer playing it), and more of PvP than of PvE actually.

But their point was that the GM doesn't really need to trudge through long forgotten tomes of lore to cherrypick the most dangerous threats for you. The pitfalls are so common and obvious that, if the antagonist has even half a functioning braincell, he would use them.

If you're content with your opposition being orders of magnitude less effective than they would normally be, good for you. Some of us don't like that sort of thing.
 
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One just doesn't design a dungeon for Level 20 characters filling it with Level 60 mobs.
Except in true WW fashion, there is no method for codifying what even IS an equivalent Level 20 character or a Level 60 mob. They simply hand you All The Stuff, and tell you to run with it, occasionally giving some rather poor chargen advice to players about maybe prioritizing HLs or a high DV.

As a result of this lack of guidelines or overhead to prevent the ST from grabbing the wrong thing and using it in the wrong combination on the wrong PC, means having only guesswork and some nebulous idea of what "makes sense" for the encounter rather than its balance, like "this guy favors combat, he should have an Extra Action Charm" in a game where Extra Actions are usually kill-shots. This means that the system has to be riddled with easy-access safety nets like cheap Perfects or Ex3's Withering/Decisive Initiative-filter, to ensure that something stands in the path of a poor choice and to neuter down the effect before it causes problems, rather than checking the design specs and making the original effect Fair to begin with.

And now Ex3 has doubled-down on this "fuck it, use what makes sense to you" with the introduction of Supernal Abilities, which means that even a starting character absolutely Must be able to tank every single Charm within the book itself on the off-chance they ever face another Solar.
 
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This line of discussion is reminding me of my theoretical TAW character I never got to play, which I made explicitly, in my mind, as someone who would die to many, if not most, of the common Celestial level combat builds, but was an attempt at a non-combat character who still invested enough in combat to handle Terrestrials. I didn't look up the details of Celestial Martial Arts at the time, so he was actually in some danger from a circle of Immaculate Monks, but he should have been able to handle anything any number of mortals could throw at him.
 
True. That has sweet fuck all to do with Chung's point, which is that Exalted 2e makes it very easy to kill players accidentally. "Five guys with sledgehammers/grappling skills/some kind of poison/basic damage magic*" does not look like a lethal threat when players are presented as heroic demigods, but it is unless those players invest in being paranoia-OK, and that's a problem.

* Not Solar-level damage adders, that's a strawman of your own invention.
I have to admit that grappling + tactics tends to be dangerous in Exalted, but I've heard claims that this is also how knights were defeated by 'lesser' opponents in real life. A sledgehammer is the top class of mundane weapons by damage; the poisons in the corebook are ones so strong that a couple of doses can kill all by their own, which means they should be handled with caution.
And heroic demigods is a broad description: a heroic demigod of book learning is not the same as a heroic demigod of combat.

If I had just Resistance 3 and the two or three accompanying Charms back during the combat with the killstick brute and a backstabbing ghost (and some other Extras, IIRC), I wouldn't even be scared back then.

But one doesn't throw 5:1 opponents unless one knows how the system handles these things and what are the odds. Doing it without knowing the likely outcomes does look as either trying to kill the PC, or some rather mighty negligence.

As for the strawman accusation, perhaps I'm misremembering (it's been a while since I looked through the books), but aren't TMAs and DB Charms generally not all that impressive compared to stuff like Tiger Style or the Fire-Stones-and-Brimstone Strike from Solar Mêlée?

Except in true WW fashion, there is no method for codifying what even IS an equivalent Level 20 character or a Level 60 mob. They simply hand you All The Stuff, and tell you to run with it, occasionally giving some rather poor chargen advice to players about maybe prioritizing HLs or a high DV.

As a result of this lack of guidelines or overhead to prevent the ST from grabbing the wrong thing and using it in the wrong combination on the wrong PC, means having only guesswork and some nebulous idea of what "makes sense" for the encounter rather than its balance, like "this guy favors combat, he should have an Extra Action Charm" in a game where Extra Actions are usually kill-shots. This means that the system has to be riddled with easy-access safety nets like cheap Perfects or Ex3's Withering/Decisive Initiative-filter, to ensure that something stands in the path of a poor choice and to neuter down the effect before it causes problems, rather than checking the design specs and making the original effect Fair to begin with.

And now Ex3 has doubled-down on this "fuck it, use what makes sense to you" with the introduction of Supernal Abilities, which means that even a starting character absolutely Must be able to tank every single Charm within the book itself on the off-chance they ever face another Solar.
Point-buy systems do tend to lack a grand unifying level scheme. Of course one has to judge the opposition based on the individual capabilities of the PCs in them. After all, one can have 500XP worth of Wise Sages or of Murdoblendos. And the murderblenders can differ too, being specced against damage, or bad touch, or dodgy but squishy etc. That's just logical, it's not something that is exclusive to Exalted, and not something that a person should be surprised about when coming specifically to Exalted, unless this is the first encounter with a the mere concept of a point-buy system (which it likely isn't, thanks to many phenomena in real life behaving like point buy systems, e.g. stuff bought money IRL).

Now, giving bad advice is bad, no argument there.
 
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But one doesn't throw 5:1 opponents unless one knows how the system handles these things and what are the odds.
Or if you've swallowed the superficial conceit of the setting whole, and thus have in your mind the concept that "five guys with sledgehammers" is something a Solar Exalt wouldn't even break a sweat disposing of.
 
the poisons in the corebook are ones so strong that a couple of doses can kill all by their own, which means they should be handled with caution.

...

But one doesn't throw 5:1 opponents unless one knows how the system handles these things and what are the odds.
Why? They're corebook obstacles, and the system doesn't call them out as especially dangerous. It's not like they're Octavian, who, for all the hype his writeup gives him, is a chump. Coral snake venom is Resources •. A handful of mortal soldiers is the kind of opposition Exalts are routinely portrayed as trouncing as a central conceit of the game. What possible reason would I, as a newbie ST, have to treat these things like live grenades?

This is the central problem, vicky. 2e is shit at communicating what makes for an effective challenge, in large part because the books don't understand what traits and effects are dangerous in actual play. As a result, the system is riddled with landmines whose dangers are hidden because their actual threat is far out of proportion to their apparent threat.
As for the strawman accusation, perhaps I'm misremembering (it's been a while since I looked through the books), but aren't TMAs and DB Charms generally not all that impressive compared to stuff like Tiger Style or the Fire-Stones-and-Brimstone Strike from Solar Mêlée?
They don't have to be. They're enough. More to the point, it's a strawman because Chung mentioned 'damage-adder Charms', which you took to mean Solar-level magic when that was neither stated nor implied.
 
Elaborating on the common 'arguments'.
  1. A player decides that their enjoyment is contingent on the world acting in a believable, internally consistent manner. Assuming parity of information, he should be able to expect that everyone around him optimizes with equal facility, and that only optimal strategies survive to become 'Gameplay'. This is what the player wants, mind you.
  2. A player or critic of the system declares that because X abuse can happen, and that it is an Optimal Strategy, it must happen. Because it must happen, it creates an unwelcome gameplay environment. This is essentially Murphy's Law in design. 5 mortals + sledgehammers can kill a solar, ergo, solars with anti-hammer defenses survive to meet the PCs. This is a thought-experiment, and exists largely if not solely to illustrate that X is broken and must be fixed. It is not (necessarily) advice for play.

These two are the theoretical arguments levied against 2e, but I think a table could legitimately say "meh, I don't think they are that big of a deal" and play.

The problem is the third argument, which follows from the degree to which 2e failed at the first two: abuse X will happen because it is not easy to detect beforehand without extensive system mastery, and it is a set of choices that people would normally select even by accident. It is a landmine that almost every new player and group will step on.
 
Why? They're corebook obstacles, and the system doesn't call them out as especially dangerous. It's not like they're Octavian, who, for all the hype his writeup gives him, is a chump. Coral snake venom is Resources •. A handful of mortal soldiers is the kind of opposition Exalts are routinely portrayed as trouncing as a central conceit of the game. What possible reason would I, as a newbie ST, have to treat these things like live grenades?

This is the central problem, vicky. 2e is shit at communicating what makes for an effective challenge, in large part because the books don't understand what traits and effects are dangerous in actual play. As a result, the system is riddled with landmines whose dangers are hidden because their actual threat is far out of proportion to their apparent threat.
They don't have to be. They're enough. More to the point, it's a strawman because Chung mentioned 'damage-adder Charms', which you took to mean Solar-level magic when that was neither stated nor implied.
Umm, because I expect a corebook for a system about modern times to include grenades in the equipment section, but don't expect a GM to throw a half-dozen live grenades at heroic movie action heroes on the first session? Even in a WWII game, unless the GM knows exactly how dangerous or safe they are in system terms.

As for the conceit, this is why I mentioned the 'demigod of what' angle. Exalted is pretty explicit that the only notable in-combat advantages Exalts have all the time are Lethal Soak and Double 10s (the Essence minimum dicecap seems to be mostly irrelevant). So anything else along the 'combat demigod' angle should come from Charms - it's the only logical way, since there's nothing else special about Exalts' innate superiority in combat. And as I said, three Resistance Charms (2½e; not sure about 2.0e) seems to give a huge boost in survivability against groups non-élite soldiers, as compared to just relying on an unboosted DV and 2 dice of Soak.

I do have to agree that Exalted doesn't explain what defines a strong challenge, but I chalk that up to the reason that point-buy systems are difficult to challenge-balance 'on paper' in such a way that the GMs following the 'on paper' advice in actual play would produce exactly the predicted results. Are there landmines? There are some, like the dubious utility of Ox-Bodies, or the slight obscurity of the five-men rule. But other things tend to be visibile. E.g. the killstick damage or the venom damage and penalty are things printed right in the open, and there's no way to not-see those numbers if you're browsing the book in search of desired-lethality-level weapon to use (which you of course do by comparing numbers). I think that while landmines exist, their ubiquity is somewhat overrated. (Now the BP/XP split is something of a non-obvious landmine, especially for newbies, but it's quite traditional for WW games, so at least many people know to look out for it; I still don't like split systems.)

Okay, I jumped to conclusions on the damage adders: I was thinking along the lines of Terrestrial ones being not much better than mundane weapons; for comparison, we've encountered a DB who could breathe fire for roughly killstick damage, and one of the PCs had Tiger Style with actually huge damage dice pools as a result.
 
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