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General Exalted Thread

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Omicron said:
Dice tricks being boring is something that'll vary from people to people a lot. I've played with people who are intensely annoyed by what they see as obfuscation and just care about the final propability of success once all is factored in, and I've seen people who love nothing more than the "fail, no wait I reroll three dice and yes one success I pass!" rollercoaster. Unfortunately if your whole group dislikes them they're pretty baked-in so there isn't much way of getting rid of them.
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Huh. Kinda reminds me of Mythender in the sense that physically rolling the dice can be exciting in and of itself. I understand that feeling, though I would prefer combat to be as fast as possible.

Omicron said:
I've never really found them to be a problem in my experience, though; at best a small delay. Guard-Breaking Technique in particular is not much of a problem - it doesn't make you reroll anything or doesn't retroactively add dice, it just increases your successes and gives bonus dice to a roll that hasn't been made yet.
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Bozwevial said:
This is kind of difficult to answer since it depends a fair bit on what you're doing. Guard-Breaking Technique is actually a pretty easy one to evaluate - every result of 7, 8, 9, or 10 is 2 successes on the Initiative roll - but by and large going by my own experiences, individually they're fairly easy to manage. They also tend to provide a little bit more variety than an excellency without being too much more mathematically complex, which does feel different to players.
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It's nice to hear that they don't cause too much delay.

Omicron said:
Cards, basically. In online play its easy enough to have editable Google sheets, but in face-to-face the best way is to write down Charm effects on cards so you can easily browse them and grasp your options.
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Bozwevial said:
One thing I've seen suggested for this has been to record your charms on little notecards, flipping them over to mark when they've been used. The reverse side can have the reset condition on it as a reminder. (If you're feeling very organized, you could color-code these so you know which charms are combat charms, which are social charms, and so on.) From my own play experience, though, I don't think this comes up as a terrible bit of bookkeeping unless you have quite a few of those - generally those charms that have reset conditions are noteworthy enough that you'll keep a close eye on them anyway.
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This idea alone pretty much completely revitalised my interest in 3e. I really like the idea of using cards like it was a TGC or something. That seems like it would be a lot of fun; I just need to work out some sort of system.

Shyft said:
At the core, 3e feels better, because you don't feel like everthing's useless. If you attack, you can be fairly asured that your time/motes won't be wasted, which is a good thing. That doesn't change the fact that 3e is not well designed.
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If it feels better, isn't that kinda the entire point?
 
runeblue360 said:
If it feels better, isn't that kinda the entire point?
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Depends on what it feels better compared to, and how sustainable that feeling is. 2E didn't exactly set a high bar there.

Personally, I actually found that it felt worse than my memories of early 1E and 2E back before the system was explored, but that's because I think that tracking a ton of things and dice tricks are just annoying distractions from the interesting parts of the game.
 
Omicron said:
Just to be clear, "Shyft hasn't read Ex3 and is talking out of his ass" is the charitable position here. I'm taking it as a deliberate favor to him, because we Internet-arguers all at one point or another start talking about shit we don't really grasp and it's simply human. If I start assuming that Shyft has actually read the books then I will be forced to address the fact that he is functionally illiterate since he spouts shit like "HGD turns a decisive attack into a withering attack" or that bullshit about how sorcerous motes work from way back.

You think you're defending him but you're actually not doing him any favors. Let him defend himself.
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In this case, because I'm not dredging up things from way back like a stereotypical girlfriend, it's called "simplification", which he pointed out in his post.
He explicitly said, which you fucking bolded, that he was simplifying things in his explanation.
Also, I am telling you not to talk shit unless you can back it up. Now I'm saying it explicitly: don't talk shit unless you can back up the shit you're talking.
Also also, probably try harder to remember what people say so you're not calling someone "functionally illiterate" while demonstrating your own shitty memory.
 
azoicennead said:
In this case, because I'm not dredging up things from way back like a stereotypical girlfriend, it's called "simplification", which he pointed out in his post.
He explicitly said, which you fucking bolded, that he was simplifying things in his explanation.
Also, I am telling you not to talk shit unless you can back it up. Now I'm saying it explicitly: don't talk shit unless you can back up the shit you're talking.
Also also, probably try harder to remember what people say so you're not calling someone "functionally illiterate" while demonstrating your own shitty memory.
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Right, but you can "talk explicitly" all you want, that gives you no power to demand being listened to. I think this particular segment of the discussion has run its course, anyway.
 
Omicron said:
I think this particular segment of the discussion has run its course, anyway.
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That is what happens when your argument can be reduced down to "really explain things to me like I am a child, despite me repeatedly calling you a complete idiot to the exclusion of making actual points beyond 'I like this thing you keep poking holes in'."

You're not convincing anyone or making some kind of cunning rejoinder by this, you're just being unpleasant in ways that makes people stop bothering to engage you. If that's a Big Win to you, well congratulations.
 
DayDreamer said:
Depends on what it feels better compared to, and how sustainable that feeling is. 2E didn't exactly set a high bar there.

Personally, I actually found that it felt worse than my memories of early 1E and 2E back before the system was explored, but that's because I think that tracking a ton of things and dice tricks are just annoying distractions from the interesting parts of the game.
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Yeah but he's saying 3e feels better than 2e. You might disagree with him but he's the one that said it.
 
Dif said:
That is what happens when your argument can be reduced down to "really explain things to me like I am a child, despite me repeatedly calling you a complete idiot to the exclusion of making actual points beyond 'I like this thing you keep poking holes in'."

You're not convincing anyone or making some kind of cunning rejoinder by this, you're just being unpleasant in ways that makes people stop bothering to engage you. If that's a Big Win to you, well congratulations.
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It got to a point where all he can say is "I don't have to listen to you", so it's past where he's worth replying to, especially since I have better things to do than explain the concept of politeness and how helpful it is in making points people actually listen to.
 
runeblue360 said:
Yeah but he's saying 3e feels better than 2e. You might disagree with him but he's the one that said it.
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Something can be better than something else and still be bad. Getting paid $2/hr is better than $1, but both are still pretty terrible. And even if a situation is slightly better in some ways, it might not be worth it to change depending on everything else.

Also, note the full phrase there: "at the core". He's not saying that 3e feels better than 2e. He's saying the core system feels better. There's a lot more to the game than the core system.
 
runeblue360 said:
Yeah but he's saying 3e feels better than 2e. You might disagree with him but he's the one that said it.
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I have no idea what you're trying to argue here. Shyft's claim is that, at the current time (shortly after release) 3E feels better than 2E at the current time (after literally years of people figuring out how utterly broken it was,) but that feeling better doesn't mean that it isn't still a game with a lot of poorly designed systems and components.

Your response was "isn't the fact that it feels better the only thing that matters?" which is kind of hard to understand. Something can be better than something else while still being undesirable: 2E as it's demonized today was so bad that saying 3E is better than it doesn't mean much. Shyft has been pretty vocal in saying that despite it being better, it's still bad (or just not great.)
 
Dif said:
That is what happens when your argument can be reduced down to "really explain things to me like I am a child, despite me repeatedly calling you a complete idiot to the exclusion of making actual points beyond 'I dislike this thing'."
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Honestly Dif, this describes your own arguments better than Omicron's.
 
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Dif, Shyft, please either get more familiar with Ex3 or stop trying to argue about it.

I'm not a 3e cheerleader. Holden accused me of being notanautomaton a while back. But reading your posts makes me want to start the New Church of John Mørke.
 
Dif said:
That is what happens when your argument can be reduced down to "really explain things to me like I am a child, despite me repeatedly calling you a complete idiot to the exclusion of making actual points beyond 'I like this thing you keep poking holes in'."

You're not convincing anyone or making some kind of cunning rejoinder by this, you're just being unpleasant in ways that makes people stop bothering to engage you. If that's a Big Win to you, well congratulations.
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The worst thing is, you're right, I am weakening my position by answering you and @azoicennead at all. You two are some of the most consistently abrasive and aggressive people in this thread, and I'm no saint of virtue myself, so I get bogged down into this kind of skirmish-fire over the pettiest shit and it lessens my overall credibility. It's annoying but it's also hard to stop because, like, holy shit did freaking azoicennead mock me for being "impolite"? You gotta laugh or cry, man, no middle ground.

It's like that post I made about "either Shyft hasn't read the book or he's illiterate," which was frankly uncalled for and irrelevant to my position, which I only made because I'm a fairly volatile person who felt he was piqued. I apologize for it, @Shyft.

So really what I should have done was avoid this conversation entirely and stick to my big focused posts from earlier and ignore the piques. Tactical mistakes! See, it all ties into the interesting choices made in the heat of conflict, like Ex3 combat.

(None of this makes my arguments wrong, which is all the tragedy; it's all about PR)
 
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Omicron said:
Just to be clear, "Shyft hasn't read Ex3 and is talking out of his ass" is the charitable position here. I'm taking it as a deliberate favor to him, because we Internet-arguers all at one point or another start talking about shit we don't really grasp and it's simply human. If I start assuming that Shyft has actually read the books then I will be forced to address the fact that he is functionally illiterate since he spouts shit like "HGD turns a decisive attack into a withering attack" or that bullshit about how sorcerous motes work from way back.

You think you're defending him but you're actually not doing him any favors. Let him defend himself.
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I think he is referencing my metaphor for HGD from earlier in the thread. I said that HGD sort of converts decisive into withering because withering attacks do damage to initiative and HGD spends initiative as fuel to defend against a decisive attack. In both cases (where you have enough initiative to stop the attack) the result is significantly reduced initiative. It misses a lot of important nuances but if you are going to try and sum the effect up to someone who doesn't know the details of the system in one sentence it works.
 
Broken25 said:
Honestly Dif, this describes your own arguments better than Omicron's.
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Does it? I'm not the one demanding proof of claims and that everyone pay me an undue amount of respect and effort despite the tack I am taking in this discussion, and actually Walked Away earlier because I refused to engage with that kind of shit. I'm the one making the claims and trying to support them when all it has got me in return is people claiming I have no idea what I'm talking about and straight-up insisting I am talking nonsense, and never once have I suggested anyone arguing against me was simply some sort of bumbling buffoon as to not understand my salient points.

I have been phenomenally patient with people disagreeing with and dismissing me, all things considered.
 
EarthScorpion said:
Hmm.

I'm now wondering how one would construct a resolution system where people are literally powered by cinematic stuff and people are literally unable to pull out their super-attacks unless the stakes are high enough.

Hmm.
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Or you could just play Feng Shui, which has all sorts of stuff tied to the level of cinematic drama in the game. Up to and includingyour target numbers in combat. Fighting the same villain in act 1 is easier than act 3, because Drama.
 
notanautomaton said:
I find it hilarious that I've rustled Holden's jimmies so badly that he's going around accusing people of being me.
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Happens a surprising amount. For the longest time on rpg.net in the wake of Alchemical's 2e being released, he was convinced Shyft and I were sockpuppets of eachother until he used his Mod abilities to check otherwise.

Apparently my other screenname still pops up in the IRC on occasion when Alchies are the subject, despite my never having spoken to him since I walked away from rpg.net post-RotSE. The man has a pretty profound case of "only one person could disagree with me, therefore everyone who disagrees with me is that person."
 
Sanctaphrax said:
Dif, Shyft, please either get more familiar with Ex3 or stop trying to argue about it.

I'm not a 3e cheerleader. Holden accused me of being notanautomaton a while back. But reading your posts makes me want to start the New Church of John Mørke.
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I think the most tragic thing about this line of argument so far is the number of people who don't like 3E being forced to argue FOR it because of the sheer level of this THISNESS going on. Because I'm pretty sure the number of posts that encouraged people to take up 3E has increased every single time it came up.
 
MJ12 Commando said:
"Not an Aphrax?"

This makes me ask, what's an Aphrax? It sounds like a cool thing for cool people.
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ManusDomine said:
We must bring into existence, this mighty creature.

Or thing, who knows what the fuck it is?

What might an Aphrax be?

(I think it sounds like Anthrax, which is uh, less cool.)
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In the Edge Chronicles, "phrax" is a crystal which, when powdered, can be used to fly airships.

Thus, a-phrax should be a magical substance of Creation which, when burned, alters gravity and makes things heavier.

It finds some use in warfare and sabotage, and is in particular used by enemies of the Haslanti to shoot down their airships. There have been many attempts at cunning weapons which would use small amounts of aphrax to shift their weight and balance to surprise an opponent or strike heavier blows, but these are almost always more trouble than they're worth and suffer damage quickly.

The Immaculate Order keeps stores of aphrax for the purposes of desecrating Anathema locales; if they encounter a temple or shrine whose magic does not permit it burned down or razed properly, the sanctified burning of aphrax will impart such great weight on it that it will collapse into the earth. It is then only a matter of burying it without leaving a trace. As aphrax is produced in the North, this is where there are the most of these forgotten, buried Anathema lairs.
 
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