General Exalted Thread

[Shyft]

Solar Disruption Technique
Cost: 3m
Minimums: Melee 4, Essence 2
Type: Reflexive (Step 1)
Keywords: Combo-OK, Obvious
Duration: One Scene
Prerequisites: Blade-Stilling Glare - Or - Majestic Radiant Presence

The Solar's awesome presence increases the speed of all hostile actions directed against her by one tick. This includes the results of a Join Battle roll. This effect can adjust a character's first actions to tick 7 or later. If that character has failed a Valor roll previously in the scene, they add two to the speed of all actions made against the Solar. No combination of any effect can increase an Action's Speed to greater than 7 ticks.

AN:

Why does this charm have optional prerequisites in two different abilities? That was my compromise on what I believe is both a logical progression of Blade-Stilling Glare and Majestic Radiant Presence. MRP is actually arguably better than this Charm, simply because it has UMI keywords, but at the same time, I actually think Exalted needs more 'step back' Charms in its trees. Not speedbumps, but ones that have higher ability or lower Essence requirements, instead of a super-surge towards Maximum.

Speedbumps are a product of how the tree is laid out, as much as how good it is as a Charm.

As for what this Charm does, I wanted to create a Join-Battle fixer that wasn't just "I roll better than you." I also am admittedly exercising some of the 'hindsight' system mastery with regard to the tick system. Normally most effects that influence action speed or ticks, are hard-capped by the 'Stop at tick 6'. That's a byproduct of the tick system being intended to 'cycle'. There's never supposed to be a Tick 7, just 0-6, and you cycle around round by round.

I added the 'If Valor' clause both as a nod to one of MRP's modes, and the various flavors of Dawn Anima. It also enocurages players to try and do more MAKE PEOPLE ROLL VALOR actions. I also added the 'Max Speed 7' clause to prevent too much action econonmy advantage.

On paper, Exalted actually probably SHOULD have more tick variance in action speeds, instead of everything being Speed 5 on average. Also- there should be more 'Non-Attack But Meaningful Actions' like Defend Other or Blockade Movement.

Master Swordsman's Eye
Cost: 1m
Minimums: Melee 3, Essence 2
Type: Reflexive
Keywords: Combo-OK
Duration: Instant
Prerequisites: None

The Bronze Tiger knows blades better than men know their wives and trees know their branches.

When the Solar activates this Charm, she targets any purpose-built weapon she can see rolls [Perception + Melee]. The difficulty of this roll is 1 for mundane weapons, and 2 for magical weapons, be they enchanted or artifact.

Success informs the Solar the weapon's history- notable battles it was used in, what foes it vanquished and so on. It also tells the Solar who holds the weapons loyalty- likely the person using it, as well as the names and brief impressions of its last three owners.

The Solar intuitively understands the weapons's traits, and can recognize if someone is does or does not satisfy the minimum means to wield the weapon. The Solar also immediately recognizes the weapon's Resources Cost, workmanship, or its Artifact Rating, but not any of its specific powers.

If the Solar uses this Charm on an artifact weapon that is not attuned and is not committed to another character, she may attune to it for the remainder of the scene with a Speed 7 Miscellaneous Action.

AN: This charm exists to remind everyone that [Ability] includes scholarly uses as well as anything else. It's a gateway charm that leads to others. Now, this Charm only offers minimal mechanical information, but it's a great roleplaying effect.

Battle Conversation Technique
Cost: 1m
Minimums: Melee 4, Essence 2
Type: Reflexive (Step 1 or Step 2)
Keywords: Combo-OK
Duration: Instant
Prerequsites: Hungry Tiger Technique, Dipping Swallow Defense

The Solar speaks to their foes through combat, and the weapons listen.

This Charm supplements a close-combat attack or parry- it has no effect on natural or ranged weapons. Once per action, the Solar applies her attack successes to the MDV of her opponent's weapon as a social attack, or any points of Parry DV remaining after defending against an attack.

This social attack counts as one scene spent eroding the loyalty a weapon has for its owner as a form of Natural Mental Influence. After this Charm has been used, The weapon's owner counts the first attack past the Solar's DV or successful Parry per action as one scene spent towards rebuilding a weapon's damaged loyalty.

If the Solar manages to completely win a weapon's loyalty, they negate all penalties when attempting to disarm their opponent, and can reflexively attune to a loyal artifact weapon.

The least gods of artifacts consider this attunement gauche, but will allow it if the Solar treats their weapon with respect- immediately slaying the former owner for example would immediately forge an unbreakable commitment against the Solar for their brutality- even if attuned normally afterwords. Treating the weapon well however, can secure the weapon's true loyalty.

AN: Yet More weapon information and loyalty effects! (I admit the name is kinda dry.)

Implicity- this charm lets you steal attuned artifacts- but AFTER several actions worth of 'My blade talks to your blade.' It also points out that KILLING DUDES with their stolen gear is Not A Good Idea.

Solar Armory Authority
Cost: -
Minimums: Melee 5, Essence 3
Type: Permanent
Keywords: None
Duration: Permanent
Prerequsites: Summoning the Loyal Steel

The Solar's loyalty is sacrosanct, and so is that of their arms.

When this charm is purchased, the Solar selects a close-combat weapon that is loyal to them. This Charm then automatically forges a commitment to that weapon, describing their total ownership.

This reciprocal loyalty allows the Solar remain attuned to the weapon indefinitely, even if it has left their care. Further, they know the weapon's bearing with perfect accuracy, and where they had it last. Note that other characters may attune to the weapon despite this Charm's effects.

Social influence that targets either the Solar or the weapon with intent to separate them is seen as an Unacceptable Order. Environmental or Mundane attempts to disarm the Solar fail automatically as a perfect effect, and any magical attempt to disarm her take an external penalty equal to her [Conviction.]

The Solar may purchase this charm up to two times, and may update their commitments once per story.

AN: This is primarily a defensive charm- and it cribs heavily from Righteous Lion Defense. The idea to start building up a theme of 'ownership loyalty'- The Solar isn't loyal to the sword because it's a good sword- the Solar is loyal because the sword is THEIRS.

Note that the disarm penalty applies to things like 'Don't take weapons in to see the king'. And if you do manage to get past the guard with this charm, are you SURE you want to deal with the consequences?

 

[Giygas]

@vicky_molokh: well, yeah. If you are fast enough to move much faster than any opponent, then you take additional turns, not do additional attacks.

I was mostly suggesting baking in the mechanics the assumption that every attack would be more like a series of attacks(Which i think it is already a thing in the descriptions of the attacks? I don't remember.), and thus develop a combat system dealing with it. Keeping everything the simplier possible in terms of rolls, of course.

The system would also probably have to deal with different parry/dodge types, to indicate the differencies between multiple weak attacks and few strong ones, or with attacks with feints/strange maneuvers. It would be an interesting thing to create, and would be different from the actual exalted combat system.

Of course, luckily for me i cannot even think where to start, so my list of homebrew that i need to do isn't increasing. Lucky me!

Now i only have to finish writing an addition to sanctapharax craft system (I have been getting close, but then i realized that i completely forgot any kind of tool interaction. I will post the version without the tool interaction later, because otherwise everything is going to get mixed up.), convert the Discordian Craft charms tree to the additioned system (It will be mostly a proof of concept to modify later, but i want to do it and so will be), explain what the hell is up with the rambling of my "Stance System"(I swear it is a good way to make so that Mundane weapons will have a place in the combat system, and to make Martial arts and Artifacts and Native charms options with different pros and cons!)(Hey, i just realized that it could be a good starting place for what i just discussed! *Realizes that it means MORE HOMEBREW*............NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!) And convert the whole discordian charmset to *something*. (A heavily modified and homebrewed version of EX3 probably. So this is in the FUTURE. )

Oh, and i forgot that i wanted to make background saner! (Mostly by using Artifacts as a base, and statting every other Background with something simliar to the drawbacks system of the Oadenols codex. Except extended to everything else, and with bonuses added.)

Hey, about Discordians:

Interacting with Weapons charms

Click to shrink...

Shyft, are you really sure you haven't got infected by a rouge Discordian Charmset? Because really, look at this:

Spoiler: Pet Rock Promotion

Pet Rock Promotion
Cost: 10m, 1wp; Mins: Craft 3, Essence 3; Type: Simple (Dramatic Action)
Keywords: Combo-OK, Touch, Training
Duration: Instant
Prerequisite Charms: Any Craft Excellency, Core Principle Concentration
TODO
By varnishing, embroidering or otherwise lavishing care and decoration on an inanimate object, a Bishop is able to gently
awaken its least god, and begin to adpot it as her familiar.

The object may be a pre-existing item, or one crafted specially for the purpose. This awakening takes several hours, or even
days, of careful craft-work, after which the character's Familiar Background increases by one dot. It may be necessary to apply
the Charm several times to reach the necessary rating, depending on the size, complexity and usefulness of the object.

The awoken object can communicate with its owner, through subtle shifts in appearance, heft and so on, though its
awareness of the world will be strongly colored by its nature. Few objects have the ability to move by themselves, but they
have a limited sense of their surroundings, and may have some expert understanding in relation to their purview. Also, since
objects do not sleep, they may have some use as watch-keepers. Its levels of mobility, intelligence and so on are dependent on
the number of dots of the Familiar Background which the Storyteller allows the player to buy.

The character can maintain at most one familiar through use of this Charm, though she may have more by other means.
Applying the Charm to another object will break the bond and leave the spirit to lapse into quiescence. Failing to take care of
the object regularly will have the same effect, though taking ownership once more will re-awaken it, without the need to reapply
this Charm.

Objects formed in other realms of reality than Creation have similar Essence structures which can be awoken, even if
they do not fit into the Terrestrial hierarchy. This Charm cannot be applied to objects which belong to another, though it can
be applied to things which the character has taken ownership of including, for example, forged raksha Graces. Living things,
or things which already have human-level awareness, such as advanced automata or sapient Infernal relics, are not valid targets
for this Charm.

(Pet Rock Promotion)
It is a bit bare in mechanics (Thing that i will fix in my conversion. Also adding at least two more charms budding from it), but it looks like it would either works wonderfully with your charms, or be completely able to block them. (You aren't merely trying to target a sword: the sword is alive!)

 

[Shyft]

Shyft, are you really sure you haven't got infected by a rouge Discordian Charmset? Because really, look at this:

Click to shrink...

No, I've never read Discordians.

If you're wondering why I'm doing so many Solar Tool Charms, it's pretty simple- Humans are tool users. Ergo, Solars get the most out of their tools. This is what 'Peerless skill and human effort' means, not 'I can do everything better than Splat'.

 

[Graveless]

I assume you mean the 4e variant, not the 3e one. I can tell you this: be extremely careful with the implementation. While the 3e variant was largely abandoned because it was slow, later people realized that the 4e variant produces some non-sensible results. Using Exalted Successes to denote the number of attacks that hit can likewise produce undesirable results. Or it might not. Need lots of testing, seeing how that interacts with other Charms, with mundane splitting etc.

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Yeah, the 4e one was what I was talking about and I remember a couple of your posts about where it breaks down. Issues with the massive increase in damage for critting is one of the parts I remember.

If you're wondering why I'm doing so many Solar Tool Charms, it's pretty simple- Humans are tool users. Ergo, Solars get the most out of their tools. This is what 'Peerless skill and human effort' means, not 'I can do everything better than Splat'.

Click to shrink...

I really wish that the core game used that interpretation for Solars.


Also, for other home brew. Here are some custom charms that got used in my games for one of the least loved splats, Abyssals.

I like a large number of the concepts and themes that Abyssal characters could use, but their mechanics leave so much to be desired that I could never run or play one if core was actually used. As such, none of these use Spectral, even though some should by core.

War:

Blighted Fields of Slaughter
Cost: 10m, 1w Min: War 5, Essence 4 Type: Simple
Keywords: Combo-Basic, Compulsion, Emotion, Obvious
Duration: Instant
Requires: Glorious Carnage Typhoon

So terrible is the might of the Abyssal warlord that the remains of any battle that he partakes in will cause those who come across his conquest years later to know the horror of facing his armies. In his wake, lay only fields dyed red with blood and piles of bones so tall they may be mistaken for mountains of white jade.

At the end of any mass combat in which the the Abyssal has reduced a unit by at least 1 magnitude, he may make a Charisma+War roll with a bonus die per Magnitude killed. Any who look upon the location afterward with an MDV of less than this value, gain an intimacy of fear toward the Abyssal.

Any with such an intimacy must pass a difficulty 2 Valor roll to take any action that may draw his ire. This includes laying those slain by his hand to rest and purifying the fields they fought in.

The intimacy created by this charm is supernaturally reinforced, persisting until the field that caused it to form is cleaned and cleansed. Only then may it be healed.

This unnatural mental influence may be overcome by spending one Willpower per scene.

Medicine:

The Pain Gets Worse
Cost: 8m, 1wp Min Medicine 4, Essence 3 Type: Simple (5/-1)
Keywords: Combo-Basic, Shaping
Duration: One Scene
Requires: One Medicine Excellency

The Abyssal touches a target and channels deathly Essence into their body. It infuses their senses, reinforcing them and preventing the target from falling unconscious, even when any normal being would no longer wish to feel. They will experience everything vividly, without any loss of sensation that would otherwise apply.

The player must succeed at an Intelligence+Medicine+Essence v MDV roll to use this charm on a target, even herself. If the target is willing, their MDV is considered 3 lower.

This charm prevents the target from falling unconscious, even if she has her incapacitated HL filled. Though anyone so grievously injured would suffer a -2 external penalty to all actions due to the amount of damage received.

Being affected by this charm takes its toll on the sanity of any being and causes them to lose one temporary willpower per scene that they are under its effects. A being with a limit track may instead gain a point of limit.

Deathless Fugue
Cost: 3m/HL Min Medicine 5, Essence 3 Type: Reflexive
Keywords: Combo-OK, Obvious
Duration: One Scene
Requires: One Medicine Excellency

People in the Abyssal's presence may only perish when the Deathknight allows it. When a being would be struck down, she reaches out with necrotic tendrils to preserve their body and soul despite grievous injury.

When a living being that the Abyssal can perceive would die from damage, she may commit two motes per health level to extend their dying health track and keep them alive, if only barely.

At the end of the scene, these extra health levels expire and all damage that they contained will be applied to the target. The target will immediately die if they have not been healed enough. The target's natural healing is also halted for the duration of this charm, requiring some form of supernatural effect to revive them.

At Essence 4 this charm may be purchased a second time to extend its duration to Indefinite. However, for every hour that it remains active, the target will receive an unsoakable level of aggravated damage. This forces the Abyssal to commit another two motes if she wishes to keep the target alive.

Larceny:

Phantom Figment Filch
Cost: 5m Min: Larceny 5, Essence 2 Type: Supplemental
Keywords: Combo-OK, Illusion, Mirror(Stealing from Plain Sight)
Duration: Instant
Requires: Unjust Appropriation Method

The hallmark of a great thief is stealing something and having no one notice it's missing. For an Abyssal thief, such simple effects are child's play.

The Abyssal uses this charm as part of a Larceny action to steal an item he can see. The character automatically succeeds in stealing the item. If another Charm contests this effect, add the character's Essence in automatic successes to the [Dexterity or Wits] + Larceny) roll to oppose the other Charm.

He also conjures a phantom image of the item as the original vanishes. He calls up a ghost of the item and imbues it with a proper form, the copy appearing in the exact same place as the original.

This copy feels and functions accurately in all non-supernatural ways. Keys unlock doors, a sword cuts, and a log burns. If the item were supernatural in nature, an Illusion effect is placed on any who interact with it, making them believe that the item is still theirs. This Illusion can be resisted by spending two points of willpower.

When the rays of the sun strike the item, the falsehood is revealed and it dissolves.

Bureaucracy:

Trimming the Fat Method
Cost: 10m, 1wp Min Bureaucracy 5, Essence 3 Type: Simple (Dramatic Action)
Keywords: Combo-Basic, Mirror(Bureau Rectifying Method)
Duration: One Week
Requires: Eloquent Example Inspiration

In any organization there are inefficiencies: the inept, the corrupt, the lazy. Such members are of no use to a Deathknight.

The Abyssal spends one week stressing an organization. She pushes every person underneath her to their limit. Once all of the undesirables are found, they are culled from the group's ranks as violently as the character wishes. Those who are not killed when expelled gain a negative intimacy of hatred toward the Abyssal.

The Exalt's player rolls Wits or Perception + Bureaucracy at a difficulty of the organization's Magnitude+1. If she succeeds, the organization's Magnitude falls by one and the primary Ability of its members increases by one to a maximum of four. This also permanently reduces any internal penalties the organization suffers from corruption or inefficiency by one.

This charm may be used on an organization that the Abyssal does not have authority in at the request of its leader, but she suffers a -2 external penalty on her roll.

Endless Servitude Technique
Cost: 2m per magnitude Min Bureaucracy 5, Essence 4 Type: Simple
Keywords: Combo-Basic
Duration: Indefinite
Requires: Accursed Overlord Authority

The Abyssal commander demands bonds of servitude that last even beyond the grave. As a simple action, she enchants any organization that she leads, guaranteeing that any who die in service to it will rise as ghosts and continue their service. All mortals targeted also gain an intimacy of 'Service to the organization' for as long as the Abyssal's motes are committed, technically preventing any losses of Magnitude due to deaths.

As potent as the effects of this charm are on the living, the bonds of loyalty to a Deathknight are even stronger to the dead. Any ghosts targeted gain an additional passion of 'Service to the organization' and a fetter that is as potent as half of the Abyssal's Essence.

 

[pheonix89]

No, I've never read Discordians.

If you're wondering why I'm doing so many Solar Tool Charms, it's pretty simple- Humans are tool users. Ergo, Solars get the most out of their tools. This is what 'Peerless skill and human effort' means, not 'I can do everything better than Splat'.

Click to shrink...

Yes. Someone who gets it, has the mechanical skill I lack, and actually like writing Solar charms.

Why do so many people think a power that's strictly human+ taken to rediculous level is arbitrary better-than-you? Humans need tools. Humans make tools. Out of random environmental bits, if need be. Ditto Solars. Only they go from wood, hunks of rock and fire pit to iron ore, mining pick, and forge in days tops, more likely hours, when those of us without GLORIOUS SOLAR BULLSHIT took 20k years for that.

 

[Cosar]

Let's put it this way:
If a character is actually, genuinely twice as fast as most other characters, as in, runs twice as far in a second and performs twice as many parries and dodges and attacks and reads twice as many books in a year and solves equations twice as fast, then this trait/power is absolutely, utterly terrifying, and the system should reflect that. It should also be appropriately expensive. If it only applies to attacks, that's a bit less terrifying, and should be cheaper, but still quite expensive. No 'three Charms and you get 6 attacks!' deals, nope. If you don't envision the terror of superior speed, you should try going to an ARMA/HACA/boxing/TKD etc. match and try to make your movements twice as slow as normal. Or rather don't try it, as it wouldn't end well.

Having to resolve six attacks per character is definitely an overload. Six-attacking pranas should be reserved for really tough characters who focus very much on the speedster niche.

Click to shrink...

So have you or have you not read the conversation up to this point? Because I really can't tell what your point is if you have.

 

[vicky_molokh]

Cool story. How does this relate to the discussion?

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It relates to the discussion of how multiattacks should be treated in RPGs. You seem to be advocating a position that six headshots in a single turn should somehow be less lethal than six headshots in six turns.

Also, the part of the post that you trimmed in the quote illustrates the difference between actual speed multipliers and cinematic/four-colour/etc. speed multipliers. To rephrase: Exalted first makes multiattacks both non-sensible and weaker-than-they-logically-should be by providing every mortal with semi-persistent defences that deteriorate only slightly with onslaught (and semi-reset between non-coordinated opponents even on the same tick), then proceeds to overcompensate by giving lots of extra attacks to people. And maintains three separate axes of Speed and Rate (the latter of which can be ignored by Solars anyway) and flurry-dice-reduction. The resulting combat patters are both illogical (as in, when encountering someone three times as fast as them in combat people just shrug and grit their teeth) and overly slow.

 

[DayDreamer]

Also, the part of the post that you trimmed in the quote illustrates the difference between actual speed multipliers and cinematic/four-colour/etc. speed multipliers. To rephrase: Exalted first makes multiattacks both non-sensible and weaker-than-they-logically-should be by providing every mortal with semi-persistent defences that deteriorate only slightly with onslaught (and semi-reset between non-coordinated opponents even on the same tick), then proceeds to overcompensate by giving lots of extra attacks to people. And maintains three separate axes of Speed and Rate (the latter of which can be ignored by Solars anyway). The resulting combat patters are both illogical (as in, when encountering someone three times as fast as them in combat people just shrug and grit their teeth) and overly slow.

Click to shrink...

This always felt like one of the dumbest things about Exalted's design. It does a terrible job emulating the feel of being a demigod. The most logical solution, given Exalted's genre, is to stop caring about individual attacks and focus instead on overall exchanges, with overwhelming single strikes and rapid series of light-to-medium attacks fulfilling roughly the same roll. Multiple attacks would have a higher damage floor or something, or have some effects trigger based on the opponent rolling 1s or failing dice. Single overwhelming strikes would have some kind of AOE component or negative status effects if they hit.

 

[Cosar]

It relates to the discussion of how multiattacks should be treated in RPGs. You seem to be advocating a position that six headshots in a single turn should somehow be less lethal than six headshots in six turns.

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And you're arguing that six bullets shot should automatically mean that 6 people fall over dead, with no means to prevent it, right?

Oh, wait, no you're not. Just like your claim is not what I'm saying, simply what you find convenient to argue against.

 

[vicky_molokh]

And you're arguing that six bullets shot should automatically mean that 6 people fall over dead, with no means to prevent it, right?

Oh, wait, no you're not. Just like your claim is not what I'm saying, simply what you find convenient to argue against.

Click to shrink...

You said that the lethality level that is appropriate to treating six attacks from speedster powers the same as six attacks from either six different characters or as six attacks over the course of six turns is a problem that needs fixing, yes? If not, then perhaps I misunderstood you.

But do note that this line of discussion branched off from this:

In WW games, sure. Because WW doesn't understand that getting hit with 5 bullets instead of 1 is way nastier than +50% damage, or that five bullet hits into the head (or torso, or whatever) by one attacker is as nasty as five bullet hits by five attackers.
Games like Fallout PnP, GURPS and others simply give a chance for more than one bullet to hit, and treat each extra bullet just like they do the first bullet.

Click to shrink...

So in other words they don't fix the lethality problem. Why would this be a good idea?

Click to shrink...

 

[The Laurent]

But wouldn't multi-attacks with bullets be less accurate? Like, there's a reason 'spray and pray' is a phrase.

Firing fifty machine gun bullets at someone doesn't do 50x more damage, and treating each bullet individually would lead you to assume so, or mechanically act so?

 

[vicky_molokh]

But wouldn't multi-attacks with bullets be less accurate? Like, there's a reason 'spray and pray' is a phrase.

Firing fifty machine gun bullets at someone doesn't do 50x more damage, and treating each bullet individually would lead you to assume so, or mechanically act so?

Click to shrink...

Oh, if you're autofiring, like a mortal human, they should be significantly less accurate.
If a mortal is double-tapping instead, then there's a more modest accuracy drop on subsequent rounds, depending on the precise delay between shots. But if both bullets hit the head (or the torso, or a hand etc.), then the second one shouldn't magically become a lesser projectile than its predecessor.

Finally, if the character is a speedster who can do as much aiming, shooting and recoil compensation in half the time that it takes a normal human, then the two attacks should be just as nasty as the human spending twice the time on it.

 

[Aaron Peori]

This whole debate is why I liked the Silhouette damage system.

In effect, every attack had a Damage Multiplier. Your fist might have x10, your sword might have x15 your gun might have x20.

Then you take the Margin of Success (in Exalted terms, the post-DV successes) and multiply it by the MoS. So if your MoS is 2, you do 2 x 10 or 20 damage (or 2 x 20 = 40 damage). Rapid fire just gave you a straight up bonus to your accuracy which improved MoS.

The final damage was compared to Threshold, so you might have a Light Wound Threshold of 15 a Heavy Wound of 30 and an Instant Death of 45. If your final damage was 20 you inflict a Light Wound, if 40 you inflict a Heavy Wound and so on.

This actually made one single burst fire more dangerous than a bunch of single attacks. Say your DX is x10 and you hit twice for 2 MoS. That's 2 final damages of 20 or two Light Wounds. But if you had Autofire that gave you +2 to hit that MoS would have been 4 for final damage 40 or one Heavy Wound.

 

[azoicennead]

And you're arguing that six bullets shot should automatically mean that 6 people fall over dead, with no means to prevent it, right?

Oh, wait, no you're not. Just like your claim is not what I'm saying, simply what you find convenient to argue against.

Click to shrink...

You said that the lethality level that is appropriate to treating six attacks from speedster powers the same as six attacks from either six different characters or as six attacks over the course of six turns is a problem that needs fixing, yes? If not, then perhaps I misunderstood you.

Click to shrink...

You two are arguing past each other.
C.o.S.a.R is complaining about a wider system problem with lethality.
Vicky is pointing out ways to model multiple attacks other than multiple attack rolls.

@C.o.S.a.R, expecting an improvement to one part of the combat system to fix the lethality problem that starts with weapon stats is dumb. Vicky was looking at one part of the combat system. Fixing the lethaltiy problem requires looking at the whole fucking thing.

 

[notthepenguins]

In WW games, sure. Because WW doesn't understand that getting hit with 5 bullets instead of 1 is way nastier than +50% damage, or that five bullet hits into the head (or torso, or whatever) by one attacker is as nasty as five bullet hits by five attackers.
Games like Fallout PnP, GURPS and others simply give a chance for more than one bullet to hit, and treat each extra bullet just like they do the first bullet.

Click to shrink...

You are, of course, correct. Being shot five times by one person is, realistically, about as bad as being shot one time by five people.

Realistically, however, the Exalted being fully capable of parrying bullets means that their weapon movements at least approach the speed of sound, and as force is fully dependent on velocity, should be doing somewhere in the range of seven times as much damage per blow as any mortal swordsman.

"Realism in Exalted combat" is probably not the hill you want to die on, dude.

 

[Shyft]

Yes. Someone who gets it, has the mechanical skill I lack, and actually like writing Solar charms.

Why do so many people think a power that's strictly human+ taken to rediculous level is arbitrary better-than-you? Humans need tools. Humans make tools. Out of random environmental bits, if need be. Ditto Solars. Only they go from wood, hunks of rock and fire pit to iron ore, mining pick, and forge in days tops, more likely hours, when those of us without GLORIOUS SOLAR BULLSHIT took 20k years for that.

Click to shrink...

Funny thing is, I really do want Solars to be powerful, to hew to their design ethos of 'Other Charms are designed with their Solar equivalents as top baseline.' - but I think people misunderstand what that means...

 

[vicky_molokh]

You are, of course, correct. Being shot five times by one person is, realistically, about as bad as being shot one time by five people.

Realistically, however, the Exalted being fully capable of parrying bullets means that their weapon movements at least approach the speed of sound, and as force is fully dependent on velocity, should be doing somewhere in the range of seven times as much damage per blow as any mortal swordsman.

"Realism in Exalted combat" is probably not the hill you want to die on, dude.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, modelling superspeed 100% realistically is often problematic, as it usually requires getting (and thus implicitly buying) other stuff like extra damage, better defences etc. I get that in ATR threads on the other forum I frequent.
However, there's a spectrum. There's the 100% realistic, then there's the semi-realistic (where the benefits of attacking and defending twice as often and running twice as fast are modelled sensibly even if damage isn't and flat defence bonuses aren't provided [the more frequent defence reset can be nasty enough]), and then there's Four-Colour where Flash throws a dozen punches at the Antagonist of The Week, with the latter nonetheless easily parrying an attack and stopping the flurry despite not having a notable superhuman parry/dodge (this is where Throwing A Thousand Cuts is mostly just fluff).

Exalted in its 2e/2½e incarnation manages to have the worst of both worlds of #2 and #3:
It wants to have loads and loads of cheap attacks like in #3, but handles them using a very complex list of operations as if it wants to be #2, the effectiveness of multiattacks for overwhelming defences is somewhere between #2 and #3 in such a way that they can be described as neither cinematically quick and fluffy (so not #3) nor plausible-looking-expensive-rare-and-nasty (so not #2). And it gets worse because there are ticks on top of multiattacks, which offer.

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Also, I find it interesting that you say that realism is not a hill worth dying on in this game line, yet the criticism of both the oversized weapons and of many logistical aspects of the game line was heavily based on concerns of realism.

 

[notthepenguins]

Also, I find it interesting that you say that realism is not a hill worth dying on in this game line, yet the criticism of both the oversized weapons and of many logistical aspects of the game line was heavily based on concerns of realism.

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One thing I've noticed is that you really, really like to conflate arguments made by different people into one mass. Please cut it out. We have different opinions, generally with nuance, and conflating them into one mass you can then use to go "Ha gotcha on a contradiction!" is inaccurate, aggravating, and terrible debating.

 

[Dif]

Fixing the lethaltiy problem requires looking at the whole fucking thing.

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Can I just take a moment to say that I have always really disliked this sentiment, because it seems to cast the entire situation as something of a "to make an apple pie from scratch first you must invent the universe" overcomplication from people who don't actually get the basic mechanics of what they are looking at. Its pointlessly dismissive, and while yes it serves a well-enough purpose of getting people to shut up about the "fixes" and mechanical alternatives they have no plans to actually elaborate on in any useful, actionable fashion, it also creates this broad impression that this problem is somehow an unbreakable, immutable fact of Exalted which requires the entire game be redone from top to bottom to be rid of it.

Except that's not true at all for how games are designed, assuming someone tries to design it in the first place, and while piecemeal efforts are generally bad and lackluster ideas, focusing on one part of a greater system CAN be more effective than a full-teardown of the entire premises underlying the thing. You just have to focus on the Right Things, which requires a much greater mechanical understanding than just saying "do it all over." Looking at how things like Damage is calculated and scaled, for example, and what Damage "means" in the system and the way it is applied to characters and objects, not simply just "one attack means 1L minimum."

Can a weapon-only patch fix this? I'd say yes actually, but it'd require someone to actually put in the work needed to make weapons themselves part of the system and more than a row of optional combat modifiers. Which means analyzing both how weapons interact with Charms, multipliers, Health Levels and soak, and math out the functions which minimize the extremes on either side of the results-spectrum. The final result likely wouldn't look like weapon-statblocks as we see them now, in any situation. That is a not-inconsiderable amount of work, but that's designing games which revolve around Maths and not Feels-Right for you.

Because look, there's no-denying some parts of the 2e system don't work and they need to be lumped together as a general rule, but that completely ignores the parts which actually work or could be slightly tweaked to work better. This "baby with the bathwater, because I never liked that baby anyway" shit is just fucking tiresome, though.

 

[vicky_molokh]

One thing I've noticed is that you really, really like to conflate arguments made by different people into one mass. Please cut it out. We have different opinions, generally with nuance, and conflating them into one mass you can then use to go "Ha gotcha on a contradiction!" is inaccurate, aggravating, and terrible debating.

Click to shrink...

I apologize. On one hand: At times I get the impression that these two threads that opinions are relatively uniform/unified, with disagreements largely pushed to the fringe (the most recent example being in the other WW thread).
On the other hand: I didn't say 'gotcha, contradiction!', but pointed out that it's interesting (as a contrast).

 

[notthepenguins]

I apologize. On one hand: At times I get the impression that these two threads that opinions are relatively uniform/unified, with disagreements largely pushed to the fringe (the most recent example being in the other WW thread).
On the other hand: I didn't say 'gotcha, contradiction!', but pointed out that it's interesting (as a contrast).

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They are not, actually, unified except in the broadest of strokes. The fact that you read an extended debate on what to do about large weapons and what effect if any they should have and went "yeah the thread has a unified opinion" is pretty baffling, honestly, because there was no demonstrated consensus there at all.

And what you communicated was "You say you want realism in combat but earlier you said you wanted realism in combat. How interesting..." which is obvious gotcha rhetoric, particularly when it isn't even close to true. The fact that you didn't go "hah, gotcha" doesn't make it any less so, this time or any of the many other previous times you've done it in the thread. You keep doing it, and it's getting very old.

 

[vicky_molokh]

They are not, actually, unified except in the broadest of strokes. The fact that you read an extended debate on what to do about large weapons and what effect if any they should have and went "yeah the thread has a unified opinion" is pretty baffling, honestly, because there was no demonstrated consensus there at all.

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Maybe I'm mistaken, but I get the impression that the the splits between the disagreeing sides are always such that one has significantly more popularity/respect/authority/influence than the other. Off the top of my head, examples include treatment of the Guild, the Realm, the Ink Monkey Era, the edition disagreements, the CBT debate, the GKS debate, the DMP debate, and the overall idea that the company that made the setting one plays with deserves some respect 'debate'. (The other WW thread's example includes the recent Technocracy debate.)

And what you communicated was "You say you want realism in combat but earlier you said you wanted realism in combat. How interesting..." which is obvious gotcha rhetoric, particularly when it isn't even close to true. The fact that you didn't go "hah, gotcha" doesn't make it any less so, this time or any of the many other previous times you've done it in the thread. You keep doing it, and it's getting very old.

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I guess I need to pick a less gotchaish wording next time.

 

[notthepenguins]

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I get the impression that the the splits between the disagreeing sides are always such that one has significantly more popularity/respect/authority/influence than the other.

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This is a) wrong outside of certain specific issues, and b) does not allow you to mash a whole thread's opinions together. If you are going to attempt to draw conclusions based on a consensus of responses, go back and make sure the person you are talking to shares that response, don't treat the thread like a hive mind.

 

[azoicennead]

Can I just take a moment to say that I have always really disliked this sentiment, because it seems to cast the entire situation as something of a "to make an apple pie from scratch first you must invent the universe" overcomplication from people who don't actually get the basic mechanics of what they are looking at. Its pointlessly dismissive, and while yes it serves a well-enough purpose of getting people to shut up about the "fixes" and mechanical alternatives they have no plans to actually elaborate on in any useful, actionable fashion, it also creates this broad impression that this problem is somehow an unbreakable, immutable fact of Exalted which requires the entire game be redone from top to bottom to be rid of it.

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You totally misunderstood what I said.
To fix the lethality problem, you need to look at the whole fucking system.
To make combat less lethal, you can make changes to specific sections.
Seriously, one of the points I made is that the core of the problem lies in a part of the combat system that was completely untouched by the "how could we model multiple attacks" discussion.

 

[Dif]

You totally misunderstood what I said.

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No, I got what you said fine, I just dislike the attitude around that particular use of phrase.

The 2.5 errata got it into people's heads that the cracks in 2e were deeper than surface-level because the dev team was adamant about "fixing it" with Charms alone, which is the exact wrong way to go about it, even if Charms contributed to the problem.