Dungeons and Dragons Megathread

Secondly, since you've thrown out proficiency bonuses, nobody gets any better at things as they level up and you've completely devalued training in favor of ability scores. Admittedly, 5E was already pushing in that direction by slowing down progression to a crawl and making proficiency bonuses generally smaller than ability modifiers, but just because the Tower of Piza is leaning doesn't mean that it's okay to push it the rest of the way over.

Speaking of, does anyone else feel like 4e and 5e both erred badly toward opposite sides of this spectrum?

I feel like a perfect middle ground between those two on the power progression front would be great.

house rules for 5e bows:

bow type (short bow, long bows, composite bow*) determine damage die size

bow grade determines both bonuses to hit and damage die

arrows determine damage type

*Composite Bow is from the More Then Damage Die pdf: https://i.4pcdn.org/tg/1491470711221.pdf

Interesting! This "more than damage die" thing is similar to some houserules of my own that I added to make weapon choice more meaningful, but way more indepth.

My system was a much simpler "swords have a +1 bonus to hit, axes crit on 19-20, bashing weapons have a +2 to hit against heavily armored targets and ignore a couple points of hardness." I might give MTDD a try and see how it works out in play.
 
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No reason it couldn't work. You can, as long as your DM is okay with it, even refluff the various Patrons to work with different ones.

A hag may be most obviously an Archfey, but the warlock in my game is using the Hexblade Patron rewards because she's a soul-dealer and was forging a child into a weapon when she made the pact.

A doting Patron could easily give a bloodthirsty but protective set of blessings to a favored ward.
Doting is one way to put it. Long term booty call is probably more accurate. The character ran into a powerful demoness while in the middle of so trouble, "impressed" her, and she disnt want to miss out on a potential repeat, so gave him a Warlock Pact. Bladelock is the plan at the moment.
 
This is basically just bringing back the "Taking 10" and "Taking 20" rules that 5E and PF2E foolishly got rid of that were supposed to cut down on pointless die-rolling and ridiculous results like trapeze artists having an average lifespan of three weeks because they always have a 5% chance of falling to their deaths.

In 5e a nat 1 isn't an autofail for skill checks or saves, only for attacks.
 
You're making all skill checks DC 11? And removing proficiency & expertise? That's a pretty big nerf to rangers, rogues & bards. And what about opposed checks, like stealth & perception?
I did say I wasn't sure how to deal with those (yet), not that I was actually intending to get rid of them.
Not all skill checks are or should be the same difficulty. Picking an Arcane Lock should not be as easy as a mundane one, talking down a dragon should not be as easy as convincing a guard to look the other way, climbing a sheer cliff should not be the same challenge whether it has handholds or not. Degrees of difficulty (as represented by different DCs) exist for a reason.
Point! I'd already suspected that limit-pushing checks needed a full subsystem, and that would be part of why. This is good feedback.
This is basically just bringing back the "Taking 10" and "Taking 20" rules that 5E and PF2E foolishly got rid of that were supposed to cut down on pointless die-rolling and ridiculous results like trapeze artists having an average lifespan of three weeks because they always have a 5% chance of falling to their deaths. In other words, this is fine, but you might as well just bring those rules back since they already codified what is and isn't worth rolling for.
Not quite. "Taking 10" ends up framing low-stakes action as the exception rather than the default, and I'm going for a completely different paradigm here.
(Also, I'm pretty sure critfails and critsuccesses have never been an offocial part of the skill system, although quite a lot of people play that way.)
All skill checks are DC 11? That's the same kind of nonsense you get in roll-under systems from thirty years ago where all tasks have the same odds of success regardless of how difficult they are. Climbing a rope and climbing a sheer cliff? Totally the same, apparently. Knowing that the explodey spell is fireball and knowing the darkest secrets of the outer planes, apparently equally likely.
Not to a reasonable DM, they won't. Their range of inputs is smaller - "is this a task that carries noteworthy risk for this character, yes/no" - but that's also an advantage, if you're trying to lessen their mechanical workload. (It does replace that with a descriptive input, though.)
Which is actually an angle I hadn't considered. DMs would obviously have the same sort of variation in crunch-level-preference that other players do. I'm going to ruminate on that.
Secondly, since you've thrown out proficiency bonuses, nobody gets any better at things as they level up and you've completely devalued training in favor of ability scores. Admittedly, 5E was already pushing in that direction by slowing down progression to a crawl and making proficiency bonuses generally smaller than ability modifiers, but just because the Tower of Piza is leaning doesn't mean that it's okay to push it the rest of the way over. Your 1st level character and 20th level character would be equally likely to succeed at something, and that's some AD&D nonsense right there. Players want their characters to get better at doing things.
Well, there's still ASIs. And I'd been considering a breadth-instead-of-depth expansion with skill proficiencies, but I was thinking of that as part of the Skill List section. That said, a helpful table for how descriptive skill goes up - maybe with a nice "default DC gets one bigger on even levels, general skill bonus goes up on odd ones" table? Could work.
Incidentally, AD&D is very much not 5E, but it does have its' fans. Please don't dismiss it.
Thirdly, what about opposed rolls? If you're rolling Stealth and somebody else is rolling Perception, or you're rolling Deception and someone else is rolling Insight, and you both beat DC 11, who wins? Are all people equally easy to sneak up on or fool? Can you clown on a legendary badass as easily as you do on a goblin? And can any goblin clown on you, even when you're a legendary badass?
This is a thing I just legitimately forgot. It'll be in the next draft, but it's probably just "both roll, higher wins, ties favor defenders". Probably.
Only now, you can't, because saves get proficiency bonuses and skills don't. But that's minor compared to the problem you just created for combat maneuvers. 5E and PF2E decided to make things like grappling and tripping be skill checks. This was a terrible idea (because it means that rogues and bards can wrestle the tarrasque but fighters and monks can't, and they should have just made it an unarmed attack roll, the only difference between an attack roll and a grapple check in the first place was the size modifier and they don't have those anymore so what the fuck, Wizards and Paizo?), but it is how the rules currently work. Except now you can't roll those skills to grapple someone, because you have no proficiency bonus to them. So you either of no hope of success, or your odds of wrestling anyone are the same no matter who they are: DC 11.
Thank you for pointing out the problem and giving me a solution at the same time. It'll be in the next draft.
Fourthly, skills now use a different resolution mechanic with different scaling (that is to say, none) than everything else, so you now can't roll certain kinds of checks without things breaking down. One of the things 5E and PF2E did right was standardizing progression. If somebody rolls Intimidate, you can roll a Will save (or Wisdom save, I guess) to resist it. You couldn't do that in 3E/PF1E because those things progressed at different rates.
Oh, yeah, you should know my save rework just adds your Proficiency bonus -2 to everything, and gives you Advantage on the ones you're proficient in. So you usually win the ones you're good at, and are a little under 50/50 for the rest.
 
This is basically just bringing back the "Taking 10" and "Taking 20" rules that 5E and PF2E foolishly got rid of that were supposed to cut down on pointless die-rolling and ridiculous results like trapeze artists having an average lifespan of three weeks because they always have a 5% chance of falling to their deaths. In other words, this is fine, but you might as well just bring those rules back since they already codified what is and isn't worth rolling for.
This is a houserule. In 3e and derivatives a skill roll doesn't autofail on 1. In fact, unless it's specifically steated that something unusual happens, a 1 on the dice is just treated as that.
Also 5e has a kind of taking 10, it's called Passive Checks.
 
Whoops, missed one.
Speaking of, does anyone else feel like 4e and 5e both erred badly toward opposite sides of this spectrum?

I feel like a perfect middle ground between those two on the power progression front would be great.
I'd love to hear more about this, particularly the 4E side - I'm not really familiar with it.

Also:
So I might be playing my first session of DnD in the next few days. One-off session run by a veteran DM with quite a few players, most of which haven't played much.

Gonna try and rebuild my DSA bounty hunter character as a 5th edition ranger. Should be fun!

Any advice for a complete DnD newb? I've done tabletop RPGs before (L5R and DSA), so I'm not too worried about basics, but if anybody knows what pitfalls should be avoided, I would appreciate the input. :p
Sorry for the late reply. Here's my list:
*The various 'editions' of D&D are approximately six-and-a-half different games in a trenchcoat, pretending to be the same thing. If you wind up playing another edition at some point, bear this in mind - it'll probably save you a lot of frustration.
*Ranger has quite a lot of situational abilities, and as such may be unusually DM-dependent. You may want to talk it over with them, and possibly use one of the Unearthed Arcana variants.
*5E has this bizarre idea that only gearheads will be interested in playing casters, so you'll want to schedule a fair bit of time for reading what your spells do. (Or you could use the spell-less Ranger variant, also from Unearthed Arcana.)
*Grappling is apparently quite powerful, and is defended against with Skills rather than armor or saving throws. You may want to take Acrobatics or Athletics for that reason.

That's all I have for the moment. Good luck!
 
Well, you didn't. And by extension you made skillmonkies basically pointless.
Look, I know you don't care for it, but can you not be actively discouraging? It's very unpleasant.
Did you want the fighter to be the best skill monkey in the game?
Not really, but I do want Skills to be useful to everyone. Balancing a universal system around a small handful of classes is just nuts.
(Perennial reminder that while I haven't converted Expertise and Jack of All Trades yet, I do intend to.)
 
Look, I know you don't care for it, but can you not be actively discouraging? It's very unpleasant.

Not really, but I do want Skills to be useful to everyone. Balancing a universal system around a small handful of classes is just nuts.
(Perennial reminder that while I haven't converted Expertise and Jack of All Trades yet, I do intend to.)
Skills are useful to everyone, in 5th edition. Expertise is not required for them to be useful; It is an exceptional degree of ability.

What your proposed substitution does is take a functional system and replace it with a non-functional system. If you find having that pointed out discouraging, that's unfortunate, but the fact of the matter is that your proposed system is both unfinished and intrinsically less useful.
 
Not really, but I do want Skills to be useful to everyone. Balancing a universal system around a small handful of classes is just nuts.
(Perennial reminder that while I haven't converted Expertise and Jack of All Trades yet, I do intend to.)
But they are though? Honestly the only change I think should be made to 5e's skills is making Perception part of your class instead of a skill that everyone feels bad if they don't take and making it easier to pick up one or two new proficiencies through downtime over the course of your average 1-10 campaign.
 
Definitely an inspiration, going to try and make them more like Barbosa's crew in the first pirates of the Caribbean though. They aren't killed by the soul sucking but they are...less. Food turns to ash in their mouths, they drink yet their thirst isn't quenched, etc..
I'd also probably switch it to hearts, or make the brain-eating have a much more ritualistic bent than the illithid standard of just ripping the skull open with their teeth-equivalents and chowing down. If nothing else, illithids that quickly, judiciously kill and then drag the bodies away for ceremonial dismemberment and rendering would make an interesting spin on them - and it's not like "they can't autokill characters with a pile of grapple nonsense anymore" is a big price to pay.
 
I hate 5E's skill system with a passion. It's to the point where I'd take nearly any other game's skill system over it. Your houserule is one of those skill systems that I wouldn't because it fixes no issues with it and introduces a key issue that shouldn't be a thing. A fixed target to beat for everything is a bad idea unless you pull a Unisystem and move the target around by penalizing based on difficulty and functionally, that's just setting a DC with extra steps.
 
Okay, let me see if I can list the reasons I made it the way I did and see if that helps anything.

*Vanilla 5E, the difference between "trained" and "untrained" skills has, well, a 1-in-10 chance of being useful at level one, scaling up to a 3-in-10 at level 17+.
*More than that, if we read the check result as a "how well did you do" guide, which I think most people do intuitively, there's a pretty big chance for a 20th level Strength 20 Fighter with proficiency in Athletics to roll low and look distinctly unimpressive. (Even without critfails, people do tend to look at a 10 as 'about average'.)
*Switching Proficiency to Advantage solves both of those issues.
*Advantage halves the odds of failure. Since I want to make failures interesting anyway, failing about 1/4 of the time in your area of competence sounds about right. I'd like that for both Ability-based competence and Skill-based competence, but if they stack, it results in a check that's only rolled to see if you're unlucky. Great for high-tension heists and suchlike, where checks are relatively common, but not so much if checks are rare.
So that suggests two difficulty classes, five points apart. Progress!
*All possible outputs should be interesting. Thus, checks should only be rolled when there are actual stakes. (Example for later: swinging across greased monkey-bars one foot above the ground might be a lot more difficult than using a rope bridge to cross a gorge, but the latter is the one you'd normally roll for. Alternately, you might be racing someone across those monkeybars, for which you would make a check.)
*The 'skill monkey' classes get features that interact with the skill system. Since those features aren't part of the basic chassis, it makes sense to test the main system first. Also, I was tired by that point.
Skills are useful to everyone, in 5th edition. Expertise is not required for them to be useful; It is an exceptional degree of ability.

What your proposed substitution does is take a functional system and replace it with a non-functional system. If you find having that pointed out discouraging, that's unfortunate, but the fact of the matter is that your proposed system is both unfinished and intrinsically less useful.
"It's bad" is not actionable. "How do you intend to handle X, Y, and Z?" is actionable. The latter is encouraging, the former isn't.
Why do you call it intrinsically less useful?
 
I'd also probably switch it to hearts, or make the brain-eating have a much more ritualistic bent than the illithid standard of just ripping the skull open with their teeth-equivalents and chowing down.
Some Illithids are depicted as producing a bone-eating substance from their tentacles( which is why they can deal damage in the first place), and then sucking the brains up through the tentacles rather then shoveling it into their mouths
 
Why do you call it intrinsically less useful?
Because you cut the tools you have to define how difficult something is down to giving out advantage or giving out disadvantage to a PC and one of those isn't even relevant if a character's proficient under your system. It also makes Guidance hilariously more powerful because now its average boost to skill checks cuts off an enormous amount of literally every DC in the game.
 
"It's bad" is not actionable. "How do you intend to handle X, Y, and Z?" is actionable. The latter is encouraging, the former isn't.
Why do you call it intrinsically less useful?

Your proposed system does two things very wrong. It removes all nuance and it takes progression out of the players' control. Making all DCs the same means there's no built in way to make something hard but doable (say an 80% chance of failure) vs relatively easy but possible to screw up (e.g. 5% chance of failure). There's no way for a GM/DM to make the system nuanced.

Second, and more importantly, removing skill ranks means players get no say in the progression of their characters' skills. The DM gets to decide what has stakes or is sufficiently difficult to require a check. The only way players get to influence this is through their ability modifiers, so the proposal cuts out a whole avenue of character customization. This flaw in the core of the system, IMO, makes the proposed system inherently worse than the current skill system.
 
In 5e a nat 1 isn't an autofail for skill checks or saves, only for attacks.
Okay, glad to hear. Based on the videos I'd seen of people playing 5E, I wasn't entirely sure. (However, see below.)

Unfortunately, PF2E did introduce a critfail for skills and do away with Taking 10, so my complaint there still stands.

This is a houserule. In 3e and derivatives a skill roll doesn't autofail on 1. In fact, unless it's specifically steated that something unusual happens, a 1 on the dice is just treated as that.
I am aware that skills don't autofail on 1 in 3E, although I wasn't sure if that was still the case in 5E until just now. However, even if a 1 isn't an autofail, given that a 1st level character probably can't have a bonus higher than +6, you're still going to fail a DC 10 "Easy" check on a 1, or for that matter, on a 2 or a 3. So that's a trained person with exceptional natural ability failing "easy" tasks 15% of the time. And since even a 20th level character can't have a bonus higher than +11 (excluding Expertise), the same will be true for DC 15 "Medium" tasks for them. So change the average lifespan of that trapeze artist from three weeks to one week.

Hence the existence of the "take 10" rule. If you're not in danger or distracted or otherwise have something interfering, you can be assumed to be able to accomplish tasks at your average level of ability.

Not to a reasonable DM, they won't. Their range of inputs is smaller - "is this a task that carries noteworthy risk for this character, yes/no" - but that's also an advantage, if you're trying to lessen their mechanical workload. (It does replace that with a descriptive input, though.)
Most modern game systems have an implicit or explicit rule that you shouldn't role for things of no importance: you don't have to roll your driving skill to drive to the store unless something crazy happens on the way.

However, in this case, you're actually creating a lot more workload on the DM, because rather than having a DC to determine what a PC is capable of doing, they have to make a judgment call about every single action about whether it's worth rolling for or not. And unless whether or not a character has training in the task in question isn't being taken into consideration, they have to make that judgment separately for each character. And again, once you've made the decision that something worth rolling, there's no ability to adjust for how difficult the task is or how experienced the character is. Ability score increases are limited in number and cost feats, as I understand it.


*Vanilla 5E, the difference between "trained" and "untrained" skills has, well, a 1-in-10 chance of being useful at level one, scaling up to a 3-in-10 at level 17+.
*More than that, if we read the check result as a "how well did you do" guide, which I think most people do intuitively, there's a pretty big chance for a 20th level Strength 20 Fighter with proficiency in Athletics to roll low and look distinctly unimpressive. (Even without critfails, people do tend to look at a 10 as 'about average'.)
*Switching Proficiency to Advantage solves both of those issues.
Those first two points, if anything, seem like pretty strong arguments that proficiency bonuses in 5E are too small. Reducing them even further is going to make that problem worse, not better.

Advantage is nice in that it reduced the odds of a low roll screwing you over, but it doesn't actually increase the average result by that much (from 10.5 to 13.825) and it doesn't increase the maximum result at all. Also, since you can't get advantage multiple times, having proficiency becomes meaningless if there's advantageous circumstances that would let everyone roll twice anyway. Advantage is a great protection against bad luck, but it doesn't obviate the need for bonuses. (Keep in mind that abilities that amounted to "always roll twice and take the better result in this skill" first appeared in Saga Edition in 2007, so I've had more than twelve years to observe how this mechanic works in play.)

The real issue is that 5E reduced the bonuses that characters got for being trained, but left the skill DCs the same, so everyone became substantially less capable of succeeding at basic tasks. Perhaps instead of taking away what few bonuses they have, you should try reducing all the skill DCs by 5 so that the odds of success are improved.
 
Okay, let me see if I can list the reasons I made it the way I did and see if that helps anything.

*Vanilla 5E, the difference between "trained" and "untrained" skills has, well, a 1-in-10 chance of being useful at level one, scaling up to a 3-in-10 at level 17+.
*More than that, if we read the check result as a "how well did you do" guide, which I think most people do intuitively, there's a pretty big chance for a 20th level Strength 20 Fighter with proficiency in Athletics to roll low and look distinctly unimpressive. (Even without critfails, people do tend to look at a 10 as 'about average'.)
*Switching Proficiency to Advantage solves both of those issues.
*Advantage halves the odds of failure. Since I want to make failures interesting anyway, failing about 1/4 of the time in your area of competence sounds about right. I'd like that for both Ability-based competence and Skill-based competence, but if they stack, it results in a check that's only rolled to see if you're unlucky. Great for high-tension heists and suchlike, where checks are relatively common, but not so much if checks are rare.
So that suggests two difficulty classes, five points apart. Progress!
*All possible outputs should be interesting. Thus, checks should only be rolled when there are actual stakes. (Example for later: swinging across greased monkey-bars one foot above the ground might be a lot more difficult than using a rope bridge to cross a gorge, but the latter is the one you'd normally roll for. Alternately, you might be racing someone across those monkeybars, for which you would make a check.)
*The 'skill monkey' classes get features that interact with the skill system. Since those features aren't part of the basic chassis, it makes sense to test the main system first. Also, I was tired by that point.

"It's bad" is not actionable. "How do you intend to handle X, Y, and Z?" is actionable. The latter is encouraging, the former isn't.
Why do you call it intrinsically less useful?
Advantage doesn't stack. By making proficiency grant it rather than an actual bonus, you remove the utility of a number of spells, magical items, class features, circumstances, and of assistance.

The practice of rolling infrequently, and only in the case of significant stakes, does not require altering the functional system towards the half-assed mess you didn't bother to finish.

You have stripped out several tools from the mechanic, broken a number of other tools through sheer carelessness, and then left off. As a dungeon master, this system is one that I could not possibly make the same use of as the existing one, because there are certain things it cannot do.

You cannot change that, no matter how much effort you put into it, because the areas in which it is less useful are core to the fundamentals of this mechanic of yours.
 
I'd like to clarify something. My system is not meant for checking "can the character do this". My system is for checking "will attempting this get the character in trouble (and if so, what sort)".
Granted, a formalized system for "is this even a thing they could do" also has its' uses, but my design philosophy leans away from randomizing that - keying it to the stats, the tone of the campaign, player preference, that sort of thing. Treating descriptive competence as a matter of aesthetics, basically.

Does that clear things up?
 
I'd like to clarify something. My system is not meant for checking "can the character do this". My system is for checking "will attempting this get the character in trouble (and if so, what sort)".
Granted, a formalized system for "is this even a thing they could do" also has its' uses, but my design philosophy leans away from randomizing that - keying it to the stats, the tone of the campaign, player preference, that sort of thing. Treating descriptive competence as a matter of aesthetics, basically.

Does that clear things up?
So your system is even less useful? Impressive.
 
I'd like to clarify something. My system is not meant for checking "can the character do this". My system is for checking "will attempting this get the character in trouble (and if so, what sort)".
Granted, a formalized system for "is this even a thing they could do" also has its' uses, but my design philosophy leans away from randomizing that - keying it to the stats, the tone of the campaign, player preference, that sort of thing. Treating descriptive competence as a matter of aesthetics, basically.

Does that clear things up?
Just a question then: If I want less randomization of results, why would I use your system when I can just play a more narrative-based system?
 
Just a question then: If I want less randomization of results, why would I use your system when I can just play a more narrative-based system?
Because I do like uncertainty for purposes of tension. I'm not trying to minimize randomness in abstract, I'm just trying to move it over to the place where I actually find it interesting.
 
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