Remove ads

Dungeons and Dragons Megathread

Reader mode
They are useful for making a bunch of undead and leaving them to wander around your lair.
 
Arawn_Emrys said:
And I maintain that enforced balance by way of "I the DM can create characters with this power but you cannot" is less optimal than have the heroes and villains be working with the same toolbox and depending on your players to not be dicks because if they are you shouldn't be playing with them to begin with.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
It's wasteful to create rules for players to do a thing that you don't want players to ever do in the first place, and it's absurd to hand players rules for how to do a thing and not expect that they might do it.

Even if there weren't balance issues with breaking the action economy, players having multiple NPC sidekicks turns combat gameplay into an unwieldy mess due to the sheer number of turns that need to be resolved. That's why all minions in PF2E, whether it's an animal sidekick or a summoned outsider or a created undead, requires that the PC spend one of their three actions to control it.

The other thing is that there would be no point in a necromancer class existing if it was just going to cast Create Undead, because you could just make a wizard that knows Create Undead and a bunch of void damage spells. Pathfinder 2E doesn't create new classes that are just existing classes with a different flavor and slight variations. If they're going to create a new class, it's going to be because they're giving it a new core mechanic that creates a unique gameplay loop.

Take the swashbuckler, for instance. It's not just a more-acrobatic fighter with some rogue abilities, because you didn't need a new class to do that; you could just be a fighter with the rogue multiclass archetype. Instead the swashbuckler had the new Panache mechanic, where it could gain a small buff by stunting on someone and then expend it to do an extra-powerful finishing move, then repeat the process by stunting on someone again.

The necromancer's thralls aren't normal minions, but a new combat resource that the necromancer can expend in a variety of ways--explode one to do damage, use one to weigh down an enemy to debuff them, consume one to regain some magic--in addition to their spellcasting and other abilities.


SinisterPorpoise said:
And not much else, since only a Critical Success lets you control any of them.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
You missed that the "Success" entry opens with "as Critical Success, except..." The Success result is only different for undead that aren't low enough level to become your minion.

If it's 4 levels lower than you, then it becomes your minion on a Success or Critical Success. Otherwise, if it's intelligent, it becomes friendly to you on a Success and helpful to you on a Critical Success, and if it's mindless then it will take one command from you on a Critical Success and neither obey nor attack you on a Success.
 
SinisterPorpoise said:
And not much else, since only a Critical Success lets you control any of them.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
You can just cast the Ritual at lower level, and thus easily get Crit Successes, since PF2E has crit successes happen if you beat the DC by 10, not just on rolling a 20 or such.

Take, for example, a Rank 3 Create Undead Ritual, which can create Level 3 Undead. This lets you create e.g. Wighs, or Skeletal Giants.
The Primary Caster has to beat a DC of 27, and the Secondary Casters one of 22, to perform that ritual.
But let's suppose our Caster is level 15 - they have Legendary Proficiency (+8) in the relevant skill, +5 in the relevant attribute, and a +2 Item Bonus to the relevant skill. That means they get +15 to that roll - in addition to their level, so they get +30.
They always make that check, and if they roll a 7 or higher, they get a critical success.

Now, does a level 15 character benefit in combat from having some level 3 minions?
No, of course not - that's the point! If that were otherwise, everyone who doesn't create minions like that would be playing massively suboptimally.
If you want "has an undead minion" to be a core part of your character concept, then there's literary an archetype for that, otherwise the ritual is there to address exactly those complaints about not being able to make undead.

Incidentally, what if you want to have a villain who used the ritual to get some minions, but at lower level?
Well, first of all you don't have to use the ritual, but what if you're a grognard who has to because reasons?
Let's suppose this is a Boss + Lackeys encounter, so there's 6 levels between the created undead and their master. That makes the Master level 9.
Even if we, for some reason, use player stats, we can get Master Proficiency (+6), a +2 Item Bonus, and +5 in the relevant attribute (just gotta use gradual progression). That's +13, plus their level, so +24 - we want to hit 37 in order for them to control the minions.
That's roughly one every 3 attempts, which just means that our Minion-Creator makes two Wights they don't control directly for every 1 Wight they do. And that's assuming they don't perform the ritual in a necromantically desecrated graveyard or such, because that'd alter the DC.
 
So it seems that the playtest was released early on Pathfinder Nexus. Lots of fun stuff of course, but..... uh, there's one rune for Runesmith that I'd put money on getting changed after the playtest.

Aueun, the Elf Gate Key's passive ability just lets someone teleport once per turn instead of striding normally. It's active ability teleports the creature next to one of your other runes so long as you're on the same plane, or, and this is the important part, to one of your sigils if you know that cantrip. Unwilling creatures can roll a will save to prevent the teleportation, but if they fail then away they go.

It's level 17 so that's endgame anyways, but there's no limit to the amount of time you can trace a rune. You can put a sigil down in the bottom of some pit half the continent away and the only thing keeping you from poofing away a foe is a will save.

Or you can put a sigil in a hospital and easily evac your allies.

Or you can leave one sigil back home, place a second sigil down in the depths of a dungeon and pop back & forth for tea.
 
Yeah if I actually get around to submitting feedback on the playtest I'd suggest that this Rune just doesn't work on unwilling creatures. Even giving it a immunity window if the opponent succeeds is iffy, since it's effectively save-or-lose.

Anyhow, here's how Runesmith works for any who are wondering:
  • Martial Class with D8 HP, standard martial weapon and medium armor proficiency progression, and legendary class proficiency but no critical specialization (though you can always pick that up via ancestry or archetype). Gets Shield Block for free.
  • Runes are a new mechanic, rather than the stuff to enhance weapons/armor we already have
  • they get applied to creatures or items, they'll individually say what they can be applied to. A special type of rune - Diacritic Runes - can also be applied to other runes, modifying their effect
  • they can be Etched, which takes 10 minutes, lasts until Invoked, and you can have 2-6 Etched runes at once (scales with level)
  • or they can be Traced, which takes 1 action to an adjacent target, or 2 actions at 30 foot range. This lasts until the end of your next turn, and other than your actions there's no limit to how many you can apply (even the same multiple times to the same target). Importantly, there are feats which combine this with other actions and such, notably a first-level feat which lets you Trace for free on a Success 1/round
  • Runes have a passive effect while they are active, depending on the Rune
  • Runes can also be Invoked, which ends their passive effect, but creates an active effect, depending on the Rune. This takes 1 action with a range of 30 feet, but once again can be done as part of other actions with feats. Notable, a first-level feat lets you Invoke on a succesful ranged attack within your first range increment.
  • Runes either come with the Arcane, Divine, Occult, or Primal trait, or if they don't you gotta apply one that you have the skill for to them (you don't need the skill to use a rune that has the trait already). This matters for interactions with magic, and for some feats
  • Runes automatically scale with your level like Cantrips do
  • Runes can be Dispelled/Counteracted, though due to their scaling this is not easy
  • You get to know 4 Runes at 1st level, and 1 additional every 2 levels. New power levels of Runes come online at 9th and 17th level. There is no way to switch out what runes you know other than Retraining.
  • Runesmiths also get Magical Crafting without needing the Prerequisites, and automatically gain formulas for rune items, and get some bonuses to crafting runes (no auto-scaling Crafting skill though)

Here's some example low-level Runes. Runes that deal damage on Invokation deal 2D6 (+2D6/2 levels (not ranks)) damage, with a basic save (typically fortitude).
  • Rune of Fire: goes onto a creature or object, lowers the bearers (=always the creature, not the object) Fire Resistance by 6 (+1/2 levels), if you Invoke it it deals fire damage to the bearer
  • Rune of Whetstones: goes onto a piercing or slashing weapon or any unarmed attack. Deals an additional 2 persistent bleed damage per weapon die, Invokation deals slashing damage to an adjacent creature
  • Rune of Dwarven Ramparts: drawn onto a shield, adds +1 to the shields circumstance bonus to AC (so +3 for a proper shield), Invokation raises the shield while keeping the bonus for 1 round
  • Rune of Cowards Bane: drawn onto a shield, while the shield is raised the bearer a +1 status bonus to AC (so that stacks with the shield) vs. physical ranged attacks. Invokation creates an illusion that affects all adjacent creatures for 1 round, they think they are trapped by an impassable wall and can't willingly move away unless they disbelieve the Illusion (typically a Seek Action)
  • Diacritic Rune of Preservation: goes onto a rune, and after the rune is invoked, it automatically re-applies that rune (but not the diacritic)

Examples of low-level feats:
  • Engraving Strike: 1 action, melee strike, on success also trace a rune onto the target
  • Remote Detonation: free action, if your next action is a succesful ranged attack within the first range increment, you also invoke all runes on the target, on a crit success they get -1 circumstance penalty to the save
  • Smithing Weapon Familiarity: familiarity with all weapons in the hammer, pick, and knive weapon groups (apparently no crit spec though)
  • Terrifying Invocation: 1 action, Demoralize without language requirement, then Invoke one rune upon the target
  • Fortifying Knock: 1 action to Raise a Shield and Trace a Rune onto your Shield
  • Runic Reprisal: requires Fortifying Knock. Allows you to draw a damaging rune onto your shield with it, if you shield block against an adjacent target, you Invoke that rune as part of the reaction, applying it's Invokation effect to the attacking creature.

As an example for a low-level Runesmith, you could apply a rune to your shield, and a rune to your weapon (or do the same for another frontliner) while exploring, then Stride into melee range, use Engraving Strike and Trace a Fire Rune onto the enemy, and then Raise your Shield. Next turn, you use Engraving Strike again (this time with e.g. the Thunder Rune), Invoke your Fire Rune for a good amount of damage, and either Invoke the second damaging rune, or Raise your Shield again.

At somewhat higher but still lower level, you can use Runic Reprisal to effectively hit anyone who attacks you with a second Invokation, dealing pretty good damage (2x6D6 at the relevant level) per round.

You can also make a damaging, more supporting build pretty easily.
 
Last edited:
And here's how Necromancer works:
  • Prepared Occult Caster with D8 HP, only 2 spell slots per rank, Int-Primary
  • their main gimmick are Thralls, spontaneously summoned/created undead creatures which get no actions on their own, only have 1 HP and are automatically hit/automatically fail saves, but that are used for various focus spells of the Necromancer (they do occupy space so they are useful for that). They can also contribute to flanking.
  • they are created via the Create Thrall cantrip, which only takes 1 action. It creates 1/2/3/4 Thralls (scales with spellcasting proficiency) within 30 feet, and immediately one of those Thralls gets to make an unarmed strike using your spell attack modifier, for 1D6 damage (+1D6/2 ranks)
  • Thralls can also be created from fallen enemies as a Reaction
  • Thralls can be consumed via 1 action, once every 10 minutes, to regain 1 focus point (there's a feat that also makes that heal you).
  • some higher-level feats grant Thralls that automatically do a narrow thing (e.g. grapple) and that come with actual HP (they're still automatically hit)
  • Subclasses respectively focus on creating Skeletal, Zombie, or Ghost thralls. They each get a useful general feat, a unique passive ability, and a focus spell (that you could also pick up via class feat).
  • Necromancers get Legendary Proficiency in Fortitude saves, and some defenses against undead, haunts, and possession
  • Necromancers get automatic Undead Lore, and some of it's feats enhance what that can do

Here's some examples for low-level focus spells and thus what you can use Thralls for other than attacking. Keep in mind that these are focus spells so they automatically scale:
  • Destroys a thrall. 2 actions to make a spell attack roll in a 15 foot line from where the thralls was, dealing 1D8 (+2D8/rank) damage. Counts as two attacks for MAP.
  • 2 Actions, Thrall launches itself at an enemy within 15 feet, Fort-Save:
    • Success: -10 foot status penalty to speed
    • Failure: immobilized, can attempt to escape (vs. your spell DC)
    • Crit Fail: grabbed, can attempt to escape
  • 2 Actions, Thrall strides up to 30 feet, then one creature adjacent to it must make a Fort-Save:
    • Success: Drained 1 (recovers after 1 minute), you or one ally within 30 feet regain HP = HP that creature lost from Drained
    • Failure: as success but Drained 2
    • Crit Fail: as success but Drained 3
  • Destroys a Thrall. 2 actions to turn the thrall into an exo-skeleton of muscle/bone/ecto-plasm that grants an ally within 15 foot of it 10 TempHP (+10/rank) and while they have those TempHP +1 status to Athletics checks.
  • Destroys a Thrall. 2 Actions to damage all creatures in a 10 foot emanation around the thrall, 1D12 (+1D12/rank) void damage, basic reflex save.
  • Reaction, not a spell. Destroys a Thrall. When a creature targets you with an attack and you can see them. You gain +2 circumstance bonus to AC vs. the attack, and also resistance = your level vs. the attack if it still hits you.

As you can see, the Necromancer gets a lot of AoE and crowd-control abilities.
And their pretty basic routine is 1 action to create thralls (blocking spaces for the enemy), ideally making a strike with a thrall at the same time, then 2 actions to actually use those thralls for something. Though you could also alternatively create multiple thralls in the same round, having each of them make their own attack, and create a wall of flesh/bone/ghosts that way.
 
Last edited:
I looked up how many magic items require you to be able to cast spells to craft them and honestly there's not a lot. For the most part it's only required for items that you use to cast spells like scrolls or wands.

Also, I believe that you can invoke as many runes as you want with each time you invoke, so you wouldn't need a seperate invocation for the fire rune & the thunder rune.
 
Queshire said:
I looked up how many magic items require you to be able to cast spells to craft them and honestly there's not a lot. For the most part it's only required for items that you use to cast spells like scrolls or wands.

Also, I believe that you can invoke as many runes as you want with each time you invoke, so you wouldn't need a seperate invocation for the fire rune & the thunder rune.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Huh, you're right.
You utter the name of one or more of your runes within 30 feet. The rune blazes with power, applying the effect in its Invocation entry. The rune then fades away, its task completed. You can invoke any number of runes with a single Invoke Rune action, but creatures that would be affected by multiple copies of the same specific rune are affected only once, as normal for duplicate effects.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

So you could go
  • Turn 1:
    • Stride up to the target
    • Engraving Strike + damaging rune (Rune of Thunder damages the enemy if they don't move, so it might force them out of melee, might damage them more)
    • Raise a Shield or Strike again
  • Turn 2:
    • Engraving Strike + your other damaging rune
    • Invoke all your runes upon the enemy, which at 1st level would be 2 x 2D6 damage
    • Raise a Shield or Strike Again or use that action to Stride up to the target
 
FaeGlade Plural said:
Reaction, not a spell. Destroys a Thrall. When a creature targets you with an attack and you can see them. You gain +2 circumstance bonus to AC vs. the attack, and also resistance = your level vs. the attack if it still hits you.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I kind of love that this one is basically Shield Block but you're making the thrall throw itself in front of you to take the hit.
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top