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For Pathfinder 2, I'm cooking up a Champion at the moment who's meant to be the Face of the party as well as the martial role, and I've got some questions. Assuming you invested heavily into Athletics and are Legendary with a number of Skill Feats including Cloud Jump, and can Long Jump 90+ feet in one action, then a few levels later you gain a permanent Fly speed by taking the Class Feat Celestial Form, would you guys keep the Legendary Athletics and all the Skill Feat investment for jumping around like the Hulk when you can fly? Or would you spend some significant time retraining, ditching Athletics down lower and using those precious Skill Advancements to increase something like Society or Deception to match the maxed Diplomacy and Intimidation for a better Face, even if that only occurs at Level 18? Here's what the build looks like at this point:

We're starting at Level 5, so only after that point is it enumerated level by level:
Level 5
Versatile Human Redeemer of Cayden Cailean
Former Martial Disciple (Athletics)
Blade Divine Ally

STR 19
DEX 10
CON 16
INT 10
WIS 14
CHA 16

Skills
Athletics E
Crafting T
Diplomacy E
Intimidation T
Lore: Warfare T
Religion T

Ancestry Feats
General Training
Clever Improviser

Class Feats
Weight of Guilt
Sorcerer Dedication
Basic Sorcerer Spellcasting

General Feats
Fleet (Versatile Heritage)
Untrained Improvisation (Clever Improviser)

Skill Feats
Assurance (Athletics)
Quick Repair
Group Impression (General Training)
Glad Hand

Spells:
C: Detect Magic, Light
1: True Strike
2: Longstrider
3: Comprehend Languages

Level 6
Class Feat - Smite Evil
Skill Feat - Powerful Leap

Level 7
Skill Increase - Intimidation E
Skill Feat - Intimidating Prowess

Level 8
Class Feat - Second Ally (Shield)
Skill Feat - Rapid Mantle

Level 9
Skill Increase - Intimidation M
Ancestry Feat - General Training
Skill Feat - Quick Coercion

Level 10
Ability Boosts - STR 20, CON 18, WIS 16, CHA 18
Class Feat - Quick Block
Skill Feat - Battle Cry

Level 11
Skill Increase - Athletics M
Skill Feat - Wall Jump

Level 12
Class Feat - Lasting Doubt
Skill Feat - Lasting Coercion

Level 13
Skill Increase - Diplomacy M
Ancestry Feat - General Training
Skill Feat - Bargain Hunter

Level 14
Class Feat - Divine Reflexes
Skill Feat - Quick Swim

Level 15
Ability Boosts - STR 21, CON 19, WIS 18, CHA 19
Skill Increase - Athletics L
General Feat - Incredible Initiative

Level 16
Class Feat - Radiant Blade Spirit
Skill Feat - Cloud Jump

Level 17
Skill Increase - Intimidation L
Ancestry Feat - ???

Level 18
Class Feat - Celestial Form
Skill Feat - Scare to Death

Level 19
Skill Increase - Diplomacy L
General Feat -Legendary Negotiation

Level 20
Ability Boosts - STR 22, CON 20, DEX 12, CHA 20
Class Feat - Shield Paragon
Skill Feat - ???

Any advice on whether and how to retrain, how to bring important features online earlier, or dud feats I've picked would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
 
Chloe Sullivan said:
Honestly my second dm attempt was worse
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Critical Role has given me impossible expectations for myself.

I knows that it objectively wasn't awful, and it probably wasn't too bad by 1st try standards but...honestly I thought I'd be better y'know? No one thinks they're gonna suck even if it's guaranteed.

Hopefully next week should be better. Going to set them against a duo of Vampire Pirates and probably put them on the edge of the smugglers cove. Going to change the mission from scouting it out to putting the main villain at least a Cameo and giving them reason to get a fight and maybe burn the whole place down. Hello my good people, have you heard the good word of Pirate Ilithids cooperating with actual fucking vampires?

Give them a reason to care honestly, I didn't account for how low stakes the mission was at start.
 
I'm good with the setting itself, I completely forgot that they needed a hook beyond 'you are in pirates of the carribean'

Actually...you know what? I was borking the captain they signed off with. He's totally in on this now. Would make more sense with how horribly stupid I've had him be.
 
Something I really learned real quick is to not bother with the accents. Just change the pitch of your voice slightly to make it distinctive when your talking as a NPC.
 
Dream Logic said:
So did my first session as DM and...it was not good. I didn't think I"d be a great DM try one, I mostly was able to convince myself I wouldn't be a *good* one even, but I didn't think I would be a bad one.

Players were bored, had little direction, accidentally managed to both railroad and give too much freedom, realized I forgot to drop the plot hook, dropped what should have been a big revelation because I was desperate to get some reaction (and naturally my players saw the obvious thing coming because it was obvious and instead of being half a joke when it gets 'revealed' it just fell flat on it's ass ten times over).

Boring ass NPC's whose accent I couldn't hold. No real drama. The worst shopping bookkeeping with my players.

Lead into the vampire pirates didn't even work because I fucked up explaining it and forgot to bring the battlemap so they could set up for when they got boarded.

Eugh. Four players. One bored enough to leave. Two on phones half the session. One who kind of enjoyed it overall.

I'm definitely looking up how to be a proper DM and all that buuuut...I guess I just want validation that it's ok that my first game was pretty horrible? Like I obviously wasn't properly prepared and was expecting//deluding-myself-into-thinking that my players would pull some slack and want to RP and such but that didn't happen.

Help?
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If your players went on their phones during the game, that's on them. They weren't even trying to pay attention.

Running a game is a back and forth. You cannot hold attention alone; The players must be willing to invest some. They must be willing to buy in.

If you were clear that you're new to it, that this was your first session running a game, then any experienced player should be trying to help you. Newbies, on the other hand, shouldn't have expectations, and should be glad you're running the game instead of leaving it to them.
Dream Logic said:
I'm good with the setting itself, I completely forgot that they needed a hook beyond 'you are in pirates of the carribean'

Actually...you know what? I was borking the captain they signed off with. He's totally in on this now. Would make more sense with how horribly stupid I've had him be.
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There, you're adapting the plot to fit things that have happened. That puts you in the upper 50% of Dungeon Masters all on its own.

As long as you keep trying to improve, you will. Run games, get better, run more. Find your own style, learn what works, copy what you like from other DMs but leave behind things you can't do or don't like.

And, as for Critical Role, that's a highly experienced Dungeon Master with a group of experienced, invested players, all of whom are professional voice actors, backed up by an actual stage crew. If you want to compare your own games to that one, do so when you've got twenty years of experience.
 
So I might be playing my first session of DnD in the next few days. One-off session run by a veteran DM with quite a few players, most of which haven't played much.

Gonna try and rebuild my DSA bounty hunter character as a 5th edition ranger. Should be fun!

Any advice for a complete DnD newb? I've done tabletop RPGs before (L5R and DSA), so I'm not too worried about basics, but if anybody knows what pitfalls should be avoided, I would appreciate the input. :p
 
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Fernandel said:
So I might be playing my first session of DnD in the next few days. One-off session run by a veteran DM with quite a few players, most of which haven't played much.

Gonna try and rebuild my DSA bounty hunter character as a 5th edition ranger. Should be fun!

Any advice for a complete DnD newb? I've done tabletop RPGs before (L5R and DSA), so I'm not too worried about basics, but if anybody knows what pitfalls should be avoided, I would appreciate the input. :p
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Falling into pits is part of the fun. Well, with a good group anyway.

mainly it's a lot like writing: know the promises you are making and keep them, just collaboratively. Keeping people's expectations in somewhat sync is a collective effort, not just the DM's job.

5e is relatively lower complexity so there isn't as much to trip over mechanically - but even in the mechanics heavy era of 3e, 95% of problems boiled down to social ones between players.

be Clear about what sort of experience you want and listen to what others want, Harmonize as best you can.
 
Chloe Sullivan said:
Falling into pits is part of the fun. Well, with a good group anyway.

mainly it's a lot like writing: know the promises you are making and keep them, just collaboratively. Keeping people's expectations in somewhat sync is a collective effort, not just the DM's job.

5e is relatively lower complexity so there isn't as much to trip over mechanically - but even in the mechanics heavy era of 3e, 95% of problems boiled down to social ones between players.

be Clear about what sort of experience you want and listen to what others want, Harmonize as best you can.
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So basically like every other tabletop game, then. Good to know!

... God, I'm looking forward to no longer doing DSA. Checking three character stats for a single roll was a pain in the ass. DnD seems a lot easier on that front.
 
Dream Logic said:
Critical Role has given me impossible expectations for myself.

I knows that it objectively wasn't awful, and it probably wasn't too bad by 1st try standards but...honestly I thought I'd be better y'know? No one thinks they're gonna suck even if it's guaranteed.

Hopefully next week should be better. Going to set them against a duo of Vampire Pirates and probably put them on the edge of the smugglers cove. Going to change the mission from scouting it out to putting the main villain at least a Cameo and giving them reason to get a fight and maybe burn the whole place down. Hello my good people, have you heard the good word of Pirate Ilithids cooperating with actual fucking vampires?

Give them a reason to care honestly, I didn't account for how low stakes the mission was at start.
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My advice is to start with published modules until you get the hang of the bookkeeping and organizational parts before you move on to doing your own adventures. It's kinda training wheels, but it does help.

And trust me, a session going bad can happen to anyone. The first time I tried 3e as a DM, I was with a new group, at college. I apparently scared the players so much with my description of a vampire sorcerer's entrance that they slammed the door to the crypt shut, locking their ranger in there with the vamps and ran.
 
Arawn_Emrys said:
My advice is to start with published modules until you get the hang of the bookkeeping and organizational parts before you move on to doing your own adventures. It's kinda training wheels, but it does help.

And trust me, a session going bad can happen to anyone. The first time I tried 3e as a DM, I was with a new group, at college. I apparently scared the players so much with my description of a vampire sorcerer's entrance that they slammed the door to the crypt shut, locking their ranger in there with the vamps and ran.
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I want to give this a like for the good advice and a funny for the ridiculous anecdote.
 
Arawn_Emrys said:
My advice is to start with published modules until you get the hang of the bookkeeping and organizational parts before you move on to doing your own adventures. It's kinda training wheels, but it does help.

And trust me, a session going bad can happen to anyone. The first time I tried 3e as a DM, I was with a new group, at college. I apparently scared the players so much with my description of a vampire sorcerer's entrance that they slammed the door to the crypt shut, locking their ranger in there with the vamps and ran.
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Honestly yes, but I'm also bored dead of the general stuff and am running this as an excuse for a scenery change.

X.X

In hindsight though there were some good moments. The introduction scene wasn't great but I think I had the right idea of it by explicitly having the Bartender/Quest-Giver/Death-Itself making them do the round table. The man's named Mort. They were going to figure it out eventually, dropping it the way I did was a bit iffy but him being upfront and honest when he talked to the Changeling in particular was interesting. Not the best idea to have them split for even a few minutes but in and of itself I think I handled the scene pretty well. Got a pretty nice reaction when they realized that they were talking to Death (oh well, the first undying. He's not Death-Itself but he's the second closest thing and a deity in his own right).

Having him offer to answer any question is a pretty decent thing for down the line, in addition to me both getting in a joke about the Chief Goddess not paying her bar tabs and implying that the color of her panties is a matter of great theological significance (Got a solid laugh at that one, her panties are pink by the way. They are always pink).

Have to do a lot of renovating real fast on how to play out this pirate encounter but I think that I can salvage things by quickening the reveal that the 'smugglers cove' is actually a launching point for an Illithid pirate group along with the ship attacking them being in cooperation and their own ship's captain deciding to put his lot in with them.

A bit of retconning the captain but I made him more antagonistic then I meant to and I really should have had them rally the crew more then I did. Though it also fit some of the stuff I put forward earlier.

Just not sure whether they should actually *defeat* the enemy or if they would essentially impress them enough to be offered a proper interview with the bosses, if they get party wiped (somehow) I'm definitely making it clear that they're doing nonlethal takedowns on them. It's not often that someone actually fights back and that makes them interesting, the 'prepare to die' stuff can be pretty easily be part of the standard piracy act along with a bit of extra theatricality.

Ugh. I had a really cool encounter set up and I didn't think how to transition it to the next bit >.<

Worst come to worse, they win and I'll have the proper pirates of the carribean style black pearl ship show up and probably rise from the sea itself for them to track. Fog and dissipating can easily be done as illusions, a ship that can also be a submarine is kind of something else.

I thiiiink I can salvage this alright, in hindsight most of the cool stuff really was only going to happen in the second session anyhow (not my best plan I admit) so there's a lesson learned.
 
Don't think that you should try to emulate one online DM and remember that half of DMing is improvisation.

Man, I want to design super-bosses that you have to go out of your way for to fight.
 
Less trying to be online DM and more 'I've played under a good few, and I've even been their second. It shouldn't be hard to run my own'...and then it being hard to run my own.
 
Dream Logic said:
Less trying to be online DM and more 'I've played under a good few, and I've even been their second. It shouldn't be hard to run my own'...and then it being hard to run my own.
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My best advice is to have some bullet points of what you want to cover on a piece of paper or notecard. My second is: relax.

Being prepared is important, but more importantly, you need to have fun with it, yourself.

Finally, to engage your players, focus on each individually if they're not all participating. "Bob, you're seeing this happen. This guy walks up to you and talks to you about [blah]." "Sally, when that guy walks up to Bob, you notice that he's got a knife hidden behind his back. Do you want to do anything?"

Keep rotating through them, making sure to ask them waht they're doing. Eventually, they'll be talking to each other at once and you won't need to switch between them other than to keep it straight, but engaging them, I've found, works best if you find something in the environment you're running to engage with each character, and keep it up.
 
So, I'm working on a 5e Warlock backstory, considering how much of the Fiend Pact abilities are focused on keeping you alive, how viable would you say it is that the PC was made a Warlock to keep him safe?
 
NotreallyHere said:
So, I'm working on a 5e Warlock backstory, considering how much of the Fiend Pact abilities are focused on keeping you alive, how viable would you say it is that the PC was made a Warlock to keep him safe?
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No reason it couldn't work. You can, as long as your DM is okay with it, even refluff the various Patrons to work with different ones.

A hag may be most obviously an Archfey, but the warlock in my game is using the Hexblade Patron rewards because she's a soul-dealer and was forging a child into a weapon when she made the pact.

A doting Patron could easily give a bloodthirsty but protective set of blessings to a favored ward.
 
I can't be the only one who had a character who in universe really wanted to Min-Max. Wasn't perfect by any means but was really funny to have in character conversations about whether it was optimal to have grease, web or both along with whether it's worth it to keep a match and lighter on you to try and light said grease on fire rather then 'waste' a cantrip on firebolt.

One of my friends pointed out he barely had any ways to kill stuff, and I was like 'Well yeah, he forgot he should be able to do that. He's too focused on control and thinking that the rest will follow somehow'.
 
So since the GitP Forums are down for maintenance, I might as well post this here. It's not complete - I haven't decided how to handle Expertise or Reliable Talent, and re-evaluating the skill list will need to wait until I've taken a hard look at the stats - but it should at least be playable. Without further ado, I give you:
SKILL CHECKS, ADVANTAGE, AND DISADVANTAGE

Most actions, even difficult ones, do not require a roll. Rolling to see if you succeed or fail - also called a skill check - is reserved for when your character is pushing the limits of their abilities, or doing something inherently risky.

When the DM decides you're trying to do something risky, such as peeking out on a group of raiders or trying to carry a heavy box out of a deep pool, they will tell you it requires a skill check.
At this point you can back out - and try to come up with something else - or you can accept the risk, and try it anyway. Dithering carries its' own dangers.

Often, the stakes will be obvious. The bandits might notice you, you could drop the box and spill its' contents and/or attract predators with the motion.
Other times it will be less so - the bandits are led by a Medusa and you might catch a glimpse of her face, the box is trapped and will extend poisonous blades if you jostle it.
In any case, the DM will reveal the nature of your perils when you fail, and your close calls when you succeed.

SIDEBAR: TRAPS
Some things are practically always risky, such as opening locked chests and doors without their keys, running through trapped, dilapidated, and/or otherwise hazardous areas, or messing with cryptic ritual implements.
In places where these sorts of task are common, many of these 'risks' may have no real consequence for failure - jumping at shadows is often a better way to build tension than bringing the hammer down every time, as it's less likely to bog down the adventure or inure the players to consequence. Try to strike a balance.
END SIDEBAR

ACTUALLY ROLLING
To make a skill check, roll a twenty-sided die and add the appropriate Ability Score Modifier. If the result is 11 or above, you succeed.

If you are proficient in an appropriate skill, you make this check with Advantage.
 
You're making all skill checks DC 11? And removing proficiency & expertise? That's a pretty big nerf to rangers, rogues & bards. And what about opposed checks, like stealth & perception?
 
Not all skill checks are or should be the same difficulty. Picking an Arcane Lock should not be as easy as a mundane one, talking down a dragon should not be as easy as convincing a guard to look the other way, climbing a sheer cliff should not be the same challenge whether it has handholds or not. Degrees of difficulty (as represented by different DCs) exist for a reason.
 
Okay, so... two things:

HoratioVonBecker said:
Most actions, even difficult ones, do not require a roll. Rolling to see if you succeed or fail - also called a skill check - is reserved for when your character is pushing the limits of their abilities, or doing something inherently risky.
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This is basically just bringing back the "Taking 10" and "Taking 20" rules that 5E and PF2E foolishly got rid of that were supposed to cut down on pointless die-rolling and ridiculous results like trapeze artists having an average lifespan of three weeks because they always have a 5% chance of falling to their deaths. In other words, this is fine, but you might as well just bring those rules back since they already codified what is and isn't worth rolling for.


HoratioVonBecker said:
ACTUALLY ROLLING
To make a skill check, roll a twenty-sided die and add the appropriate Ability Score Modifier. If the result is 11 or above, you succeed.

If you are proficient in an appropriate skill, you make this check with Advantage.
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This is problematic for a number of reasons.

All skill checks are DC 11? That's the same kind of nonsense you get in roll-under systems from thirty years ago where all tasks have the same odds of success regardless of how difficult they are. Climbing a rope and climbing a sheer cliff? Totally the same, apparently. Knowing that the explodey spell is fireball and knowing the darkest secrets of the outer planes, apparently equally likely.

Secondly, since you've thrown out proficiency bonuses, nobody gets any better at things as they level up and you've completely devalued training in favor of ability scores. Admittedly, 5E was already pushing in that direction by slowing down progression to a crawl and making proficiency bonuses generally smaller than ability modifiers, but just because the Tower of Piza is leaning doesn't mean that it's okay to push it the rest of the way over. Your 1st level character and 20th level character would be equally likely to succeed at something, and that's some AD&D nonsense right there. Players want their characters to get better at doing things.

Thirdly, what about opposed rolls? If you're rolling Stealth and somebody else is rolling Perception, or you're rolling Deception and someone else is rolling Insight, and you both beat DC 11, who wins? Are all people equally easy to sneak up on or fool? Can you clown on a legendary badass as easily as you do on a goblin? And can any goblin clown on you, even when you're a legendary badass?

Fourthly, skills now use a different resolution mechanic with different scaling (that is to say, none) than everything else, so you now can't roll certain kinds of checks without things breaking down. One of the things 5E and PF2E did right was standardizing progression. If somebody rolls Intimidate, you can roll a Will save (or Wisdom save, I guess) to resist it. You couldn't do that in 3E/PF1E because those things progressed at different rates. Only now, you can't, because saves get proficiency bonuses and skills don't. But that's minor compared to the problem you just created for combat maneuvers. 5E and PF2E decided to make things like grappling and tripping be skill checks. This was a terrible idea (because it means that rogues and bards can wrestle the tarrasque but fighters and monks can't, and they should have just made it an unarmed attack roll, the only difference between an attack roll and a grapple check in the first place was the size modifier and they don't have those anymore so what the fuck, Wizards and Paizo?), but it is how the rules currently work. Except now you can't roll those skills to grapple someone, because you have no proficiency bonus to them. So you either of no hope of success, or your odds of wrestling anyone are the same no matter who they are: DC 11.
 
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