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Dungeons and Dragons Megathread

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Are alchemical resources renewable then? Or is there an oil analogue?

I generally hate Vow of Poverty, which this automatic progression thing kinda sounds like. If you're just using magic items for stat bonuses, you're basically nerfing yourself - magic items are supposed to provide a degree of basic stat boosts, but their more important function is to let your character get more versatility by opening up abilities not available within her class. The most obvious of which is flight or other mobility boosts, but miss chances, anti-status effect, and exotic senses are also popular things to grab by magic item. I have a sneaking suspicion that Auto-progress, like VOP, fails to offer that.
 
Chloe Sullivan said:
Are alchemical resources renewable then? Or is there an oil analogue?

I generally hate Vow of Poverty, which this automatic progression thing kinda sounds like. If you're just using magic items for stat bonuses, you're basically nerfing yourself - magic items are supposed to provide a degree of basic stat boosts, but their more important function is to let your character get more versatility by opening up abilities not available within her class. The most obvious of which is flight or other mobility boosts, but miss chances, anti-status effect, and exotic senses are also popular things to grab by magic item. I have a sneaking suspicion that Auto-progress, like VOP, fails to offer that.
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The automatic progression rules don't eliminate all magic items - instead, they give you the "boring" basics freely. As characters level up, they automatically gain Resistance, Natural Armor, Deflection, bonuses to their Mental and Physical stats, and the enhancement bonus for their weapons and armor. You can still find stuff like a Cloak of Elvenkind, Boots of Haste, or a Flaming longsword.
 
Indeed, those progression rules actually open up slots for the interesting magic items.
Because a lot of times? You won't be using a Cape of the Montebank or an Elven Cloak or a Star Cloak - because doing so would cost you between +1 and +5 to all your saves, depending on your level, which can easily kill you.
The same went for headbands (mental stats) and worse, belts.

It removes half your WBL - but now you no longer have to spend any money on Cloaks of Resistance, Headbands of Statboost, Belts of Statboost, Armor Enhancement Bonus, Weapon Enhancement Bonus, Amulets of Natural Armor or Rings of Deflection.
Instead, you can spend it on interesting weapon and armor enchantments and on cloaks/belt/amulets/rings that grant interesting abilities.
You also won't have to worry about falling behind the curve due to not finding the right items for sale.

The only drawback of the system I can see is that it slightly downgrades the Magus Arcane Pool and similar abilities - but only in-so-far as that those abilities made something essential slightly less essential, which this system also does. And it works just fine with those systems.
Item crafting actually gets more interesting with this too - and as a GM, you can afford to make magic items more rare, since falling behind WBL will no longer be as crippling.
 
I was a bit unclear on that. I have potions and magic items to cover what Automatic Bonus Progression doesn't, but they aren't purchased, they are requisitioned. I do have to have a limit on how much magical gear can be requisitioned for balance reasons, though. The main issue was that I wanted people relying on their bodies getting better instead of just getting bigger cannons, and I like the idea of alchemically enhancing soldiers.

I did take away weapon, shield, and armor attunement. Instead, you apply your attunement to whatever you currently wear or wield (still have to split the attunement if you have a weapon in each hand). This is meant to specifically encourage things like switch hitting and using backup weapons or gear scavenged from enemies on the fly (I do like disarming and sundering things). If your halberd breaks in combat, you should be able to draw a longsword to defend yourself and not lose your enhancement bonus, archers should be able to drop their bows at close range and go for swords and axes, and opening combat with a musket shot or two should be a valid option for melee focused builds who wish to do so.
 
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Serafina said:
Indeed, those progression rules actually open up slots for the interesting magic items.
Because a lot of times? You won't be using a Cape of the Montebank or an Elven Cloak or a Star Cloak - because doing so would cost you between +1 and +5 to all your saves, depending on your level, which can easily kill you.
The same went for headbands (mental stats) and worse, belts.
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Nope, basic stat boost items were eratted to be combine-able with something else in the same slot at no extra cost since MIC in 3.5. If PF lacked that rule, it's one more way the PF devs screwed up.

Also, deflection bonuses to AC, resistance bonuses to saves and armor bonuses to AC were always higher if you used spells or powers to get them than using magic items, therefore I never spent money on buying them. Losing half my WBL for that is a terrible trade from the optimizers perspective.

Furthermore, It was always better to get a + 1 (ability, ability)weapon/armor and use spells or powers to make it plus 3 than to buy a plus 3 weapon/armor. That's just very basic logic, to the point that 339's optimization checklist had using a non-unique weapon with more than a +1 as one of it's basic no-no's

That said, this does streamline character choices and reduce paperwork, so it's not bad as an idea overall. VOP wasn't terrible as an idea, it was just implemented idiotically. The PF version letting you keep half you WBL is an improvement, but the prioritization of AC boosts makes me still want to give it a pass. I'd much rather have the WBL
 
My experience has been that the mechanical effects of stuff like this is highly dependent on the Gamemaster's style. Some GMs play faster and looser with access to magic items than others, regardless of whether the WBL system is in place. This isn't just with WBL, either. I've found that the balance of 3.5 and Pathfinder in general is dependent on how the group plays, and many widespread balance problems aren't universal, or vary in severity depending on how the players are acting and how the GM is setting up challenges and interpreting rules. Without the WBL system, it really comes down to how much gear I'm actually passing around, and I can adjust that metric if the PCs are too powerful or too weak. If the players are lacking options or the casters are handling too many out of combat tasks because the system is lagging behind WBL, I can always pass out a larger amount of equipment to provide a greater variety of magic abilities. If that gets out of hand, things can be reigned back in. I can also start houseruling the Automatic Bonus Progression system if I run into problems with AC being too favored. I really don't expect to get the balance point right the first time here.
 
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I myself think that the automatic bonus progression system is nice, adventurers being covered in magic items like Christmas trees was never something that sat right with me. And it is a vast improvement over Vow of Poverty.
 
I have come up with what is possibly the worst premise for a DnD campaign ever: Pun-Pun is possible and the characters are trying to become him.

Well it's not that bad. The players will be a tribe of kobolds who have cottoned on to the possiblity of Pun-Pun somehow and desire to have at least one of their number ascend so that one can serve as the tribe's protector. If a Pun-Pun that doesn't care to protect the tribe is created (say a Chaotic One), that's a bad end. The PCs can't be "Divine Minions" either so to become Good or Lawful Pun-Pun would require being the kind of wizard that needs to have done a bunch of questing.

They'd need to actually find a Sarruhk, need to get high enough level to do the various tricks, other actors will eventually cotton on to what they're doing and either try to either stop them or beat them to it, etc.

How terrible is this idea?
 
Aranfan said:
How terrible is this idea?
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It's not bad because of the premise.

It's bad because you presume the players won't just use one of the optimal solutions, which makes the whole campaign one or two magic items long.

It's also bad because you structure the campaign as a goal which can never be reached, since reaching the goal ends the campaign. Better campaigns are structured around goals which can be reached, and which have consequences that continue the game rather than ending it.
 
Aranfan said:
They'd need to actually find a Sarruhk
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Um, I might be wrong about this, but don't most Sarruhk have enough levels in a caster class to use 7th-level spells on top of there SLAs?
And don't they usually have a bunch of dudes working for them who they will inevitably modify into more fearsome and powerful forms?
And don't they each have unique magic items, and a lot of them?

Yeah, RIP your players.
 
Ottriman said:
adventurers being covered in magic items like Christmas trees was never something that sat right with me.
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Look, if you're planning on going into a lot of potentially lethal fights, you take every modbanned advantage you can possibly get. That's just basic sense.

In a setting where magic items can give you significant power and survivability, the weird thing would be adventurers *not* hoarding the things like magpies.

Remember, D&D is, despite the thematics, a schizo tech setting where the high end of tech is vey very high. Do you know many gadgets and accoutrements an U.S. Army infantryman has in his full kit? And he's not expected to fight anything remotely dangerous as a dragon in close quarters.

Ottriman said:
And it is a vast improvement over Vow of Poverty.
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That's a very low bar. Just flat losing half my WBL but spending the other half as I please is superior to VOP once you get past the low levels.
 
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Chloe Sullivan said:
Remember, D&D is, despite the thematics, a schizo tech setting where the high end of tech is vey very high. Do you know many gadgets and accoutrements an U.S. Army infantryman has in his full kit? And he's not expected to fight anything remotely dangerous as a dragon in close quarters.
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Just to underline this, I remember a blog post from Keith Baker about how they went about designing the magitech in Eberron: they basically looked at real world stuff, then figured out how to apply it via D&D magic. Not even making up new spells or using high end stuff either, as the example I recall was about using illusions to make movie theaters.
 
Yea, Eberron is awesome. My setting is, after all, heavily inspired by it. I moved things from the Pulp Era to the Sixties, and have a greater focus on things like paranoia, law enforcement, and social justice (and I do get real world political), but at the core of things Eberron remains a crucial influence.
 
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Chloe Sullivan said:
Do you know many gadgets and accoutrements an U.S. Army infantryman has in his full kit?
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Yes.

2014 close-support sapper, Royal Engineers, Helmland Province
1 Silva compass - used for basic navigation and fire control orders
2 Karabiner - used for securing kit and equipment to the vehicles
3 Osprey body armour shoulder and neck attachments - the armour increases protection but can be very restrictive so these parts are detachable depending on the threat assessment
4 Osprey body armour; can be fitted with pouches to carry everything from ammunition, water, first aid kits and grenade or with plates and protective attachments (as shown)
5 Notebook
6 Warm weather hat
7 Spare clothing including underwear trousers, UBAS (Under body Armour Shirt) and normal shirt
8 Dog tags
9 A desert issued belt
10 Beret - used for repatriation ceremonies, vigils and large parades
11 Shemagh - to soak up sweat and also a dust guard
12 Gloves
13 Sandals – issued kit, as soldiers may need to run for cover even while showering
14 Boots
15 Multi tool
16 Washkit
17 GSR - general service respirator
18 A housewife – a basic sewing kit; a soldier has to repair his own rips and tears on the ground
19 Socks, scarf, wristwatch
20 Camel pack - drinking water pack
21 Cooker and mug and tea making kit
22 Rations - quantity will depend on the task but soldiers normally carry about 24 hours worth
23 First aid kit including the (black) tourniquet and (grey) first field dressing
24 Ballistic protection - used to protect the groin from IED blast
25 Knee pads - offer protection to a soldier whilst "taking a knee" from the heat of the ground or rocky areas
26 Sleeping bag with an inflatable roll mat
27 Camera, cigarettes
28 Radio - BOWMAN Radio system (HF, VHF or even SAT Comms), daysack could also be fitted with ECM (Electronic counter measures)
29 Personal role radio - used for line of sight communications within a small patrol
30 Magazine
31 Envelopes
32 Mine extraction kit fitted with a mine prodder, instruction and mine marking kit
33 Weapon cleaning kit
34 Holster
35 Pistol - used as a second weapon system and in confined spaces or where a "long" weapon is unsuitable. Sig and Glock have mostly replaced the Browning 9mm calibre
36 Bar mine - anti-tank landmine
37 Head torch - can be fitted with coloured lenses for more tactical situations
38 Bayonet and bayonet scabbard
39 SA80 A2 fitted with a desert hand guard, upgraded flash eliminator and bipod, all issued for Afghanistan and a SUSAT sight system. It is 5.56 calibre and is here issued with 6 magazines which can hold 30 rounds each
40 Ballistic eye protection - normally goggles or sunglasses
41 Mk 6 Helmet fitted with Helmet mounted night vision systems
42 iPad - personal effect for down time
43 Poncho

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Not U.S.A. but I believe it illustrates the point.
And a lot of that stuff is multi-purpose.
 
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That should actually prove pretty useful in developing some new military magitek. Thanks.

My issue with magic items is when getting more powerful magic items is so vital that taking away a main weapon cripples a character. It feels like a Fighter is more dependent on their kit than their feats sometimes. That's why I like Automatic Bonus Progression. It lets the Fighter become more impressive personally instead of giving em kit with higher numbers, and their magic kit can be a bunch of items that are lower level mass produced magic items that are usually disposable or use disposable power sources, which fits the setting. So, interchangeable weapon runes with weapon enhancements built into them are common, and when the enchantment wears off you can quickly replace the rune, rather than handing people +2 flaming swords.

Also, I do believe that I will rule that weapon focus and weapon specialization grant across the board attack and damage bonuses, and will examine what feats and class features should no longer need to require selecting a particular weapon group. This should have the effect I want of making martials effective with whatever weapons they weild, encouraging characters to use a variety of weapons instead of one or two main weapons. This also shouldn't effect game balance much at all, aside from encouraging switch hitting more, which I want. Maintaining your weapon focus when you drop a bow in melee range and draw a sword is a nice mechanical benefit, but in terms of game balance it isn't really making you that much more powerful.
 
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Aaron Peori said:
See, I think that's kind of lazy. "How do we emulate the real world with magic" is boring. "How does magic lead to a different world" is more interesting.
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No, Aaron, bad!

That way lies tippyverse!

Leaving aside TO craziness, what you get going that route is basically Dungeonomcon, which is, well, it basically assumes bronze/heroic age political structure, as the only way to justify why there aren't Eternal Sovereign style necroindustrial superpowers everywhere. And that's not really most people's cup of tea for D&D. Besides, exalted does it better.
 
Chloe Sullivan said:
No, Aaron, bad!

That way lies tippyverse!

Leaving aside TO craziness, what you get going that route is basically Dungeonomcon, which is, well, it basically assumes bronze/heroic age political structure, as the only way to justify why there aren't Eternal Sovereign style necroindustrial superpowers everywhere. And that's not really most people's cup of tea for D&D. Besides, exalted does it better.
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Eh, you can avoid a lot of that by having the Outer Planes be more involved in the Prime.
Things like having a Solar(or an Aspect of a Celestial Paragon) as the President/Emperor of a theocratic nation.

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Huh, that gives me an idea.

A country that's a Theocratic Democracy, the current leader of the Pantheon is elected by the mortal citizens and leads/rules the country through an summoned Aspect.
The religion is of course Henotheistic as is normal for D&D, and people can worship whichever member of the Pantheon they want, with the assumption that they will vote for their Patron.
 
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I like the idea that different regions have different power structures in part due to different magical and technological priorities, biases, and resources.

A Theocratic Democracy over here, an Eternal Lich Queen over there, an Industrial Republic of Gnomes over that-a-way, and so on.
 
Chloe Sullivan said:
No, Aaron, bad!

That way lies tippyverse!
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Only if you're doing things in the most ridiculous way possible.

Leaving aside TO craziness, what you get going that route is basically Dungeonomcon, which is, well, it basically assumes bronze/heroic age political structure, as the only way to justify why there aren't Eternal Sovereign style necroindustrial superpowers everywhere. And that's not really most people's cup of tea for D&D. Besides, exalted does it better.
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I don't see how basing your setting off the modern world but justifying it with magic makes this not a problem. D&D is not designed for setting emulation, never was, never will be.

My point is that if I want to play "modern world with magic" I'll just... play that.

Much better to come up with new and interesting things that magic could do and building a society around that.
 
Aaron Peori said:
Only if you're doing things in the most ridiculous efficient way possible.
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FTFY. GLORIOUS MACHINE LOGIC.

Aaron Peori said:
I don't see how basing your setting off the modern world but justifying it with magic makes this not a problem. D&D is not designed for setting emulation, never was, never will be.

My point is that if I want to play "modern world with magic" I'll just... play that.

Much better to come up with new and interesting things that magic could do and building a society around that.
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That's a great idea for a custom magic system. With the Existing D&D spell set, especially for AD&D or 3E?

Look, Dungeonomicon is the *best* case scenario.
 
Aaron Peori said:
See, I think that's kind of lazy. "How do we emulate the real world with magic" is boring. "How does magic lead to a different world" is more interesting.
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Eberron did a fair bit of both really. I mean, the Warforged are basically an industrialization of existing D&D golems. I was more referring to Eberron's general technology, which is meant to emulate the 1920s and 30s, but also taking into account the fact magic disguise rings are something spy agencies will give to everyone they outfit given a chance. which in turn effects the world and is generall y accounted for.

Honestly, I have no idea what your even complaining about. Using the real world for inspiration is bad or something? Cause I find that borderline nonsensical.
 
I have my own weapon and armor list. Here it be.

I still need to add firearms to the table, though. Early firearms are simple weapons. The lack of costs comes from not tracking the purchase costs weapons and armor. The shifting around of armor types was because my setting doesn't really use heavy stuff like full plate, but I didn't want the mechanical effects of taking away heavy armor. So breastplates in my world are equivalent to full plate in other worlds, and so on.

I also moved around weapons to make more sense. A longsword is a two handed weapon, and really big two handed swords like greatswords aren't used in this setting at all. Rapiers aren't all that light or maneuverable, and they are both soldier's weapons and civilian's weapons. It's the smallsword that is a light, maneuverable duelling weapon for civilians, and you'd want a smallsword for almost anything D&D depicts people doing with a rapier. So, longswords get greatsword stats, arming swords get longsword stats, rapiers are like piercing longswords, and smallswords get rapier stats. Weights had to be brought under control. 3.5 has them as pretty ludicrous. A longsword is rarely over 4 pounds, an arming sword should be under 3, a rapier should weigh the same as an arming sword, a halberd should be, like, 5 pounds depending on length, a mace should weigh about the same or less than an arming sword, and so on. This stuff isn't near as heavy as what 3.5 lists. As an aside, one handed swords typically require more strength and stamina to wield properly than longswords, because the weight difference isn't drastic enough to cancel out the fact that you have two hands instead of one.

In fact, I bet the armor is too heavy as well, but I haven't looked into that. I do know that I have seen almost no examples of a fully metal shield intended for war that isn't a buckler. I've seen many media depictions of Greek warriors with bronze shields, but in reality they went into battle with painted wood. I would imagine a steel light or heavy shield is far too heavy to be practical, which is probably why I've never seen them. Shields need to be very mobile in combat if you want to get the full benefit of them.

Also, Vendalia doesn't fight in tight formations or use archery or musketry volleys much. Problem is that alchemical artillery and battlefield control spells are far too deadly to a closely packed formation. If you try to get soldiers close enough for an effective volley, they are going to get bombarded with stuff like cannonballs that explode in midair and shower people with stuff like shrapnel, flaming jelly, acid, liquid lightning, and instant frostbite. Close units are also very vulnerable to things like entanglement spells. That's actually why muskets haven't fully replaced bows in military use. Soldiers fight in scattered formations to minimize how many people can be taken out with a single artillery round, and often fight in rough or urban terrain at close range to take advantage of cover from enemy fire. Muskets are still useful in this environment, and militaries do issue them, but often the speed of fire of a recurve bow is also quite useful. Standing armies with highly trained professional soldiers that are supplemented by conscription only when needed are the norm, which makes training archers less of an issue, espeically with alchemical strength enhancements being standard for archers and requirements that schools teach all physically and mentally fit students weapons handling (in case a draft ever has to be levied).
 
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