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Dungeons and Dragons Megathread

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My brother and I played our first real game of DnD last night! It was really exciting and a lot of fun!

I played a Lvl 3 Tiefling Moon Druid, who I'm feeling pretty good about. I didn't really worry about min-maxing, I tried to focus on what sounded fun.

We had a sorta Halloween-themed game and it was mostly us tussling with a few of what I think were Ghasts in a creepy inn. I was pretty enthusiastic with my Moonbeam spell, which was pretty good at dealing with these gangly undead motherfuckers who liked to crawl on ceilings. On the other hand, I used Entangle multiple times and that goddamn spell failed me every single time!

Unfortunately, I sort of ... forgot I was a Druid and completely failed to use Wildshape. Like at all. >_>

Anyways I'm looking over the Druid spells and they've got me pretty psyched ... except how does the class that's like the bossest at transforming not get True Polymorph???
 
Morphic Tide said:
The problem is that several of the monster races involved are liable to instantly become Water Orc level optimal with the removal of the Charisma penalties. This is because they're made with the assumption that the Charisma penalty will balance out the bonuses they get. Of course, the low number of combat abilities in 3.5 that scale with Charisma, of which precisely none are found on these races, turns it into a WotC-mandated dump stat.
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What drugs are you doing and where can I get some?

Charisma is a VASTLY more useful stat than STR. STR is the got to dump stat for 90% of builds. And the builds that don't dump it are nearly all low tier.

Half orcs being just +2 STR -2 INT leaves them still woefully underpowered compared to Dwarves, who on top of +2 Con (better than STR) -2 CHA, have a whole bunch of save bonuses and defensive boosts, as well as darkvision, while Half orcs have... darkvision.

Frankly, -CHA penalties for Orcoids and goblinoids is Implicitly racist bullshit that does no one any favors. Just remove the pointless -2 CHA from all of them and move on.

Water orcs with +4 Str +2 Con -2 Int -2 Wis would still be underpowered, because anything actually high tier need good mental stats and can easily get away with dumping any physical stat except maybe Con.
 
For the purpose of asserting dominance over users bringing people closer together, I made a Discord Server for those of us on SB/SV that play DnD! Invite is here.
 
Chloe Sullivan said:
because anything actually high tier need good mental stats and can easily get away with dumping any physical stat except maybe Con.
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Here's your problem. "High tier." Casters being OP is a fact of the system, yes, but the game is built with the assumption that non-optimal build choices are made, of the sort that leaves casters pretty close to martials. The game's design assumes all ability scores are equal in value, so taking away a penalty means either adding a different one or reducing a bonus.

You know what expected build choices are? Healbot cleric, blaster wizard, skillmonkey rogue and meatshield fighter. It's the iconic party layout for a reason. The heaps of power given to casters isn't intended, it's just a side effect of what was done to meet pagecounts and deadlines. Namely, default to easily made content, like spells and feats. The hard page-filling is in PRCs, where they can churn through 2-3 pages on one entry in about three hours, if that. Editing and checking for easy exploits probably comes

—

A thing I've started considering for no particular reason is replacing attempts at recreating various things from other media as base classes with sets of AFCs and non-class rules elements that accomplish the same role.

Stuff like repurposing Crusader into a Bloodborne Hunter based class. I took a three hour wiki binge because of being interested in lore based fluffsplanations and god DAMN does Bloodborne fall apart when you give characters an idea of moderation. Seriously, the entire reason the Beast Plague is a thing at all is because the people in Yharnam down multiple bottles worth of Blood Vials daily. Dozens to hundreds of Blood Vial equivalent per day. Sure, long term injury is fundamentally nonexistent, and conventional disease is probably not a thing... But look at the Beasts. I mean, I suppose if everyone had a Quicksilver Rifle to off any nascent Beast they ran into... And could pull the Blood Bullet trick... but that means giving everyone a rather powerful firearm and the means to make explosives from nothing but their blood. Goddamnit, now I need to bring this to one of the fic threads somewhere...

At any rate, Rallying can be replicated by the simple expedient of replacing Furious Counterstrike with an ability that restores health from the delayed damage pool. Thanks to Furious Counterstrike being an Attack roll booster, replacing it also reduces the accuracy of attacks, so some of the precious accuracy needed to be consistently landing two or three attacks per round goes away, thereby significantly lowering the value of per-hit healing rates.

The situation with Quicksilver Bullets, the Bloodtinge scaling Trick Weapons(the two have significantly different mechanics from eachother) and the Visceral Attack Caryll Rune effects(translated to conditional Strikes/Counters) can be used for a decidedly vampiric Discipline that can be carried on an AFC that trades Devoted Spirit and Knowledge(History) for it and Knowledge(Arcana).

Caryll Runes and Blood Gems are obviously added types of item, but an interesting thing that can be done with them is having Caryll Runes be able to take the place of a variety of subsystem access points. Such as a Psion trading a Power Known to get a permanent bonus. Blood Gems are mostly just another socket system, but the theme means that you can bring in Con or HP costs instead of XP. Sockets are kinda boring, though...

The remainder of the Trick Weapon system can be covered by a slightly abnormal double-weapon system. Not just mode swapping, because transformation attacks are a pretty major thing with Bloodborne combat. There has to be some level of involvement, with that, which needs a level of granularity that 3.5 just doesn't have. Simple solution, though. Just toss it into Full Attacks and pre-Attack or mid-Attack Swift and Move actions. For the most part, this just means making a tradoff of some kind on an attack for the transformation. Or the item's price counts the advantages of the swap as an at-will ability.

...Does this cover all the basic stuff out of Bloodborne? What do you think about the ideas I drabbled out? ...not counting the second paragraph of this segment, which is basically a mini-rant about Bloodborne's plot requiring utterly bizarre amounts of excess and how the issues could be sent sideways.
 
Sydonai said:
I'm pretty sure that from an in-setting perspective it has to do with their gods screwing them over in order to make huge armies of easily controlled minions.
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Which is tripe, because Lolth's Drow - who are even more beholden to their goddess than the orcoids and Gruumsh - have +2 dex, int and cha.
 
Cornuthaum said:
Which is tripe, because Lolth's Drow - who are even more beholden to their goddess than the orcoids and Gruumsh - have +2 dex, int and cha.
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Because she wants them to be Machiavellian sociopaths rather than a Horde-O-Mooks with a handful of less-stupid Officers, and can afford to give them more direct benefits/power because she uses much more direct threats(Driders, devoured by spiders, etc).
 
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Morphic Tide said:
The game's design assumes all ability scores are equal in value, so taking away a penalty means either adding a different one or reducing a bonus.
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This has literally NEVER been true in D&D, pre-4e. (and possibly ever, I never looked into stat balance in 4+ e)

In classic D&D STR was explicitly the best attribute.

In 3.5 it's very clearly the least valuable, since spells to boost it give much bigger bonuses to it than to Dex or Cha at equivalent levels.



Also, by this logic, you should agree with me that the extra -2 CHA penalty on Orcs and goblinoids should be removed, since they have net -2 instead of net +/-0 like other la 0 races.

(Water orcs/halflings should also be removed by the same logic but I'm totes okay with that. Jungle orcs are cooler anyway.)
 
Anyone ever thought about running an epic 6 style campaign with PCs as outsiders? Like, players would play as either Archons, Angels, or Devils (i.e. outsiders with baked in processes to advance to a more powerful form when the story necessitates it).

For actual variation, players would be allowed to retrain a certain number of feats (if Pathfinder/3.5 is used, I'd have to do some more work to make it work 5e/2e), alter some minor spell like abilities, and alter weapon proficiencies.

I like the Variant Multiclass rule from Pathfinder, and would probably use it. For those not in the know, it trades away feats at certain levels for minor, stacking class abilities of the chosen class.

This would allow players to all start on the same chassis but have actual variation.

Then you run either a planar war campaign, planar exploration campaign, or some other really cool outsider focused thing that normally is hard to do with PCs. At certain points, they can get "promoted", becoming a slightly better outsider and giving them more authority and more risk in the campaign.

Thoughts?
 
So how would the advancement work if it's epic six? do your Angel/devil abilities get tracked separately from character level?
 
Chloe Sullivan said:
So how would the advancement work if it's epic six? do your Angel/devil abilities get tracked separately from character level?
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No level. After X amount of time/xp, you'd get a new feat. So kind of a modified Epic 6, treating starting stats as level 6. And yeah, I'm still brainstorming the idea, but you'd have to keep track of epic 6 feats separately from feats given by being a specific outsider.

I haven't thought about it for 5e yet, but I'm planning on doing that at some points.
 
Chloe Sullivan said:
In 3.5 it's very clearly the least valuable, since spells to boost it give much bigger bonuses to it than to Dex or Cha at equivalent levels.
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...no, that's still wrong, all six direct buff spells are +4 to an ability score and are 3rd level spells. If you were right, those buffs would be different in power because they were for different strength values. Unless you're talking about Polymorph spells, in which case that's a symptom of monster design, not an actually intended part of the game. After all, there's monsters with significantly more Dexterity than Strength.

I see 3.5 as a pile of compromises to cover up mechanical "glitches." Inflated HD comes from needing monsters to survive four PCs wailing on them long enough to suck up a quarter of their daily resources, and they can't use Con for that because then Fort saves would be functionally impossible to get past. Natural Armor bloat, similarly, comes from making Dexterity really low for the bigger monsters. Which still fails to make monsters meaningfully hard to hit because spell damage bypasses in and Touch AC exists. I mean, the reason for the .5 was literally to fix glaring inherent mechanical errors with 3e.

Hell, we see this pretty clearly with spellcasting. In AD&D, the "full" casters actually had Bard progression. But they went to level 30, getting to 9th level spells in the process. Because they stuck 9th level spells at level 20, they had nothing to crib from TSR to give as actual spells that wasn't pure plot device. If full casting was Bard progression and went to level 30 in 3.5, the game would be far more balanced because all those carry overs from AD&D would be where they were originally intended.

If 3.5 was more D&D than d20, if it used an alteration of the preexisting d20 engine to better represent D&D, then it would work out far better because the legacy code of spells would be inside a system that can actually handle it. If the campaign warping spells were better compensated for by using a 4e style character tier system, or they did what TSR D&D did and noted that many spells above X level are basically plot devices to design entire campaigns around access to, then the roleplaying experience would be less screwed by the absurd narrative power of casters.

The biggest problem with 3.5 is that it has pretentions of being balanced when it's working with an intentionally unbalanced source material. TSR D&D freely admitted that mundane characters would be worthless at higher levels and that the game fell apart past the point where stuff like Teleport came into play. Because the narrative structure and DM advice recognizes that the guy who swings sword good is not going to keep up with people who can turn into dragons and alter the laws of physics, and stuff like Teleport + scrying utterly wrecks a massive number of campaign possibilities.
 
Morphic Tide said:
...no, that's still wrong, all six direct buff spells are +4 to an ability score and are 3rd level spells. If you were right, those buffs would be different in power because they were for different strength values. Unless you're talking about Polymorph spells, in which case that's a symptom of monster design, not an actually intended part of the game. After all, there's monsters with significantly more Dexterity than Strength.

I see 3.5 as a pile of compromises to cover up mechanical "glitches." Inflated HD comes from needing monsters to survive four PCs wailing on them long enough to suck up a quarter of their daily resources, and they can't use Con for that because then Fort saves would be functionally impossible to get past. Natural Armor bloat, similarly, comes from making Dexterity really low for the bigger monsters. Which still fails to make monsters meaningfully hard to hit because spell damage bypasses in and Touch AC exists. I mean, the reason for the .5 was literally to fix glaring inherent mechanical errors with 3e.

Hell, we see this pretty clearly with spellcasting. In AD&D, the "full" casters actually had Bard progression. But they went to level 30, getting to 9th level spells in the process. Because they stuck 9th level spells at level 20, they had nothing to crib from TSR to give as actual spells that wasn't pure plot device. If full casting was Bard progression and went to level 30 in 3.5, the game would be far more balanced because all those carry overs from AD&D would be where they were originally intended.

If 3.5 was more D&D than d20, if it used an alteration of the preexisting d20 engine to better represent D&D, then it would work out far better because the legacy code of spells would be inside a system that can actually handle it. If the campaign warping spells were better compensated for by using a 4e style character tier system, or they did what TSR D&D did and noted that many spells above X level are basically plot devices to design entire campaigns around access to, then the roleplaying experience would be less screwed by the absurd narrative power of casters.

The biggest problem with 3.5 is that it has pretentions of being balanced when it's working with an intentionally unbalanced source material. TSR D&D freely admitted that mundane characters would be worthless at higher levels and that the game fell apart past the point where stuff like Teleport came into play. Because the narrative structure and DM advice recognizes that the guy who swings sword good is not going to keep up with people who can turn into dragons and alter the laws of physics, and stuff like Teleport + scrying utterly wrecks a massive number of campaign possibilities.
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Ummm.... AD&D wizard got 9th level spells at level 18. And were the only ones who ever did at any level. Cleric had only 1-7
 
Arawn_Emrys said:
Ummm.... AD&D wizard got 9th level spells at level 18. And were the only ones who ever did at any level. Cleric had only 1-7
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...I clearly remember a pre-3e D&D table listing a progression to 9th level spells with each spell level taking three class levels to accomplish. The rest of the post still stands, with making the imbalances clear being a major way to make people accept the problems and focus a bit more on role play.

Also, if you click and drag over text on a Xenforo forum, which includes this one, SB, QQ and a Warcraft 3 map making forum called Hive Workshop, it will let you quote the selected text. I tell you this in hopes of dissuading you from quoting full posts when you only want to respond to part of it.
 
Morphic Tide said:
...no, that's still wrong, all six direct buff spells are +4 to an ability score and are 3rd level spells. If you were right, those buffs would be different in power because they were for different strength values. Unless you're talking about Polymorph spells, in which case that's a symptom of monster design, not an actually intended part of the game. After all, there's monsters with significantly more Dexterity than Strength.
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Fisrt thjing first, the direct stat buff spells are 2nd level. Second, spells like Enlarge Person, Rage, Righteous Might and Divine Power all grant buffs to Strenght first and then to Constitution. Out of Core, you have the Bite of the WereX line, Draconic Might and Giant Size, which again are primarily Strenght buffs.

Morphic Tide said:
If 3.5 was more D&D than d20, if it used an alteration of the preexisting d20 engine to better represent D&D, then it would work out far better because the legacy code of spells would be inside a system that can actually handle it.
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There was no preexisting d20 system before 3E. The d20 system was made for 3E.

Morphic Tide said:
The biggest problem with 3.5 is that it has pretentions of being balanced when it's working with an intentionally unbalanced source material.
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The biggest problem with 3E it's that it made no pretentions to be balanced, it started with wanting to play like AD&D 2E but with a unified roll-over mechanic, instead of having both roll-over and roll-under mechanic in different places. The developers at the start never even tought about balance, that idea slowly crept up as the line evolved. You can start to see a push toward more limited spells and more open-ended mundane classes only at the end of 3.5. 4E was made with balance in mind, editions before did not consider it.
 
Should also note that you wouldn't usually have a level 10 mage and a lsvel 10 fighter in the same party in 2e, as every class had its own exp progression.
 
Arawn_Emrys said:
Should also note that you wouldn't usually have a level 10 mage and a lsvel 10 fighter in the same party in 2e, as every class had its own exp progression.
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Yeah,the exp needed to go at 10th level as a fighter (500,000 xp total) could bring a Wizard to level 11 (375,000) and changes, a Cleric to 10 or a Druid/Bard/Thief to 12. OTOH, a ranger/paladin would still be at level 9.
 
So I've finished reading the Necropunk Campaign Setting book and the Ewgee sourcebook for that setting(Pathfinder system). It is a very strange mix of incredible flavor with incredible meh. Not sure I can comment much on mechanics but fluffwise...

Various Notes about the setting:

Probably one of the most puzzling things? The Humanity Symposium, a scientific enterprise, has a planet sized space station as their headquarters. This is never expanded upon.

Sentinels are kind of mary sue/gary stu ish.

Esperanto has become a common second language. That's slightly... odd.

The GM Advice Chapter cribs heavily from the hero's journey/campbellian monomyth.

There is a Social Combat System.

Bones are as hard as steel as a baseline and capable of transmitting thoughts due to the Zerostag enzyme humans started producing that's the in setting justification for psychic talent.

The Value of Bone means Graveyards are high security facilities now.

The Augmentations and exotic weapons are pretty cool(Biting Skull Gauntlets, Whipswords made of human spines, Rings that expand and contract via psychic command that can be swung).

Digital technology has become something of a niche subject due to the possibilities Necrotech(Discoveries derived from exploitation of the thought transmissiveness of bone and other biopunk shenanigans) brought forth.

The Prime Bloodline is creepy as hell and apparently has the occasional person with full conscious control of every part of their body. Also implanted personas in some of their members.

The Necromancer's Guild has an Assassin's Guild as part of it, with legal sanction to execute unlicensed crafters of Necrotech.

There are Psychic Kung Fu Monks(The Qu'em).

Finally, there are the most awesome part of the setting, the Magpies(Which are totally yoinkable as a Daelkyr project or something for use in other settings). They're people who swallowed a fish without hesitation when another Magpie asked them to. There's a tendril protruding out of the side of their mouths the fish uses to breath while it's in the Magpie's stomach, and in exchange, the Magpie can see luck like a flow of water, making them excellent gamblers and capable of weaponized Rube Goldberg shenanigans in battle. The most experienced magpies can keep up with combatants in Bone Golem armor and Qu'em masters. Some of the flaws provided as options for them getting a bonus to will saves vs mind affecting effects seem not all that disadvantageous though.
 
Is anyone familiar with a Pathfinder conversion for Oriental Adventure and L5R? I have a friend who wants to run L5R with D20 and wants me to play, but I really don't want to deal with the shit in 3.x that was improved upon by Pathfinder. Especially since I think some of the people who he's inviting are from our new group that consists of me, him, and three brand new players to tabletop, which would make keeping things straight difficult for them.
 
Wolf Ritter said:
Is anyone familiar with a Pathfinder conversion for Oriental Adventure and L5R? I have a friend who wants to run L5R with D20 and wants me to play, but I really don't want to deal with the shit in 3.x that was improved upon by Pathfinder. Especially since I think some of the people who he's inviting are from our new group that consists of me, him, and three brand new players to tabletop, which would make keeping things straight difficult for them.
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L5R got an official D20 adaptation, with splatbooks for each clan, plus one each for monks, samurai, shugenja, and ninja, all of which had both d20 and l5r rules, it's own version of a Monster Manual, called Creatures of Rokugan, a magic/magic item supplenent, and quite a bit more. Just make the same changes to the classes that pathfinder did (try using Elemental Schools from wizard for shugenja). The only thing that I don't recommend is the Pathfinder Ninja. It sucks.

Add the Holy Damage/anti undead spells from cleric to the wizard list as Earth spells, and the healing as Water spells, and dump the entire school of necromancy into a little bin marked "maho, this is heresy"
 
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Arawn_Emrys said:
L5R got an official D20 adaptation, with splatbooks for each clan, plus one each for monks, samurai, shugenja, and ninja, all of which had both d20 and l5r rules, it's own version of a Monster Manual, called Creatures of Rokugan, a magic/magic item supplenent, and quite a bit more.
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he's aware of that, he wants a pathfinder conversion of the 3.5 stuff. As in, a written document someone has already made - doing the conversion work for him, so to speak.

I haven't seen one, but then I never looked, because frankly I am of the opinion that pathfinder made the mechanics worse, not better.
 
Arawn_Emrys said:
L5R got an official D20 adaptation
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Yeah I know that, but it's using the 3.X version of D20 rather than one in lines with the rework done in PF. I'm trying to avoid all the fucking half ranks, redundant skills, xp for crafting, bloat dead feats, dead levels, uselessly low DCs for class abilities, and needlessly complex combat maneuvers.
 
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