Chloe Sullivan
Subdefective
- Location
- 1630 Revello Drive, Sunnydale CA
Knock and the like were invented for parties where no one wanted to play a rogue. And stuck around because what is D&D without legacy code?
Dungeons and Dragons Megathread
- Thread starter Havocfett
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Revlid
blob of bugs
- Location
- England
Yeah, but... what about games where no-one wants to play a Wizard?
I know that's never going to happen because D&D usually expends a fair amount of energy each edition establishing that not only are magic users more mechanically powerful and flexible than mere mortals, they're also cooler and better and you should be playing one, but still. Hell, I'm flicking through the 5e basic rules right now, and it's telling me that past a certain tier I can expect spellcasters to do things that are simply impossible for characters to normally achieve – while other classes can make more attacks.
4e, I guess, for better or worse.
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grommile
nasty-minded old cynic
- Location
- NERV-Mercia
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- Traditional/Animate
The thief can't open a held or wizard locked door for you.
The knock spell can. (Admittedly, so can your big burly fighter.)
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Revlid
blob of bugs
- Location
- England
Okay, so "I also see spells like Knock and Wizard Lock and wonder why the hell anyone would have written spells for a Wizard to do the Rogue's job better than they can."
FaeGlade Plural
Semper Legens
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- Land of Bureaucracy
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- Plural/They
Silly @Revlid , D&D spellcasting can do anything and everything.
Heck, arcane magic can do almost anything and everything. Basically the only design-space that isn't filled by arcane magic is healing - and even there you still have a few spells who can do that, or outright replicate divine spells.
How this came to be is pretty obvious too. D&D just took a grab-bag approach to magic, and basically any feat of magic from any fantasy setting you can think of got made into an arcane spell at some point. There was no design guidelines that said "no, this doesn't fit what our magic can do". So now, over several editions and dozens of sourcebooks, there's a spell for anything you can think of.
Heck, arcane magic can do almost anything and everything. Basically the only design-space that isn't filled by arcane magic is healing - and even there you still have a few spells who can do that, or outright replicate divine spells.
How this came to be is pretty obvious too. D&D just took a grab-bag approach to magic, and basically any feat of magic from any fantasy setting you can think of got made into an arcane spell at some point. There was no design guidelines that said "no, this doesn't fit what our magic can do". So now, over several editions and dozens of sourcebooks, there's a spell for anything you can think of.
grommile
nasty-minded old cynic
- Location
- NERV-Mercia
- Pronouns
- Traditional/Animate
Knock doesn't check for or disarm traps (and find traps is a cleric spell which only lasts 30 minutes/casting) present, doesn't listen at the door, and being a second-level spell it ties up a spell slot that could potentially be used for a stinking cloud, wizard lock, detect invisibility, or invisibility spell instead. Even a 29th-level magic-user (the last line of the table) only got seven second-level spell slots per day, and in 1st and 2nd edition magic-users didn't get bonus spells/day for high stats the way clerics and druids did and couldn't (RAW) substitute low-level spells in high-level slots except by the use of the Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer spell (which is a 4th-level spell allowing memorization of three additional spell levels at a materials cost of 100 gp + change).
As such, 1st edition AD&D's knock spell is not a routine substitute for the thief; rather, it is an emergency substitute for the thief, or a means for dealing with situations beyond the thief's ability (i.e. a magically secured door, or one whose lock is physically inaccessible from this side).
Revlid
blob of bugs
- Location
- England
Yes, I think this might be the problem I'm running into. There's a line in the basic rules I'm reading that says:
D&D 5e Basic Rules said:
So we check out the four basic Classes they present us with. We have the Fighter, who fights. We have the Rogue, who handles traps and obstacles. We have the Cleric, who heals and blesses. We have the Wizard, who does magic.
At this point I frown and say "well, hold on there – the first three Classes were all about verbs. They specialised in doing specific things and handling specific challenges. This Wizard fellow, on the other hand, he's got a noun – he just 'does magic'. What does that mean? What does magic do?"
"Everything", responds the game with an awkward shrug. Then it brightens up. "But not all at once!"
Wizards don't have a role, because their role is "magic" and baseline D&D totally refuses to nail down what "magic" can do. Magic can deal damage. Magic can reduce damage. Magic can reveal secrets. Magic can help you sneak. Magic can apply buffs. Magic can apply debuffs. Magic can alter terrain. Magic can control enemies. Magic can create allies. Magic can do anything, because magic is magic.
Thud said:
- Location
- Australia
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Summon Monster I does a perfectly good job of finding traps.
grommile
nasty-minded old cynic
- Location
- NERV-Mercia
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- Traditional/Animate
Yes, though 1st edition AD&D's monster summoning I is slightly awkward for this purpose in the context of a potentially-trapped door due to (a) it being a 3rd level spell so having to compete with fireball, lightning bolt, hold person, and protection from normal missiles (b) the 30% chance that your 2-8 summoned creatures will be giant rats rather than something that can operate a door handle.
(Yes, 1st edition AD&D really did have some awful design decisions going on.)
- Location
- mariana trench
I think the point of the wizard is to use the magic to fill in what is missing from you're team. You needed more fighting power, fireball, you need someone to unlock a door, knock, etc etc. It's supposed to be a grab bag that you will pick out what will help your team more and allowing for more team variations
Renewal
Boring Person #5883781345
- Pronouns
- He/Him
The issue, of course, is the logical conclusion that 3e reached: that spellcasters ultimately have sufficiently powerful spells to obsolete other team members entirely.
FaeGlade Plural
Semper Legens
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- Land of Bureaucracy
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- Plural/They
That's actually a viable role - in theory.
In practice, it quickly leads to the Wizard being able to do everything better than every other class, and effectively replacing most classes.
This has several reasons:
- Spells often do it better, or do more powerful things.
Compare Knock to a Rogue using Disable Device to pick a lock. It has about the same chance of success, but the Rogue needs to spend a full-round action, the spell does it in a standard action and at a distance to boot. That's better - if you had to choose between Knock and Disable Device, the former is just better. Yes, it also becomes available later and uses limited resources, but more on that later.
Compare a protective fighter (=tank) with Summon Monster. The latter has several innate advantages- it's inherently expendable (and so does not care about lost hitpoints or inflictions taken) and it's perfectly loyal and willing to take those hits. But it can also easily have higher reach, special attacks and so on that the fighter can't get.
Compare acrobatics, climb, ride, swim or any movement-related feat to spells. Flight obviates most of the need for the first three, several spells obviate the need for the latter.
Compare Stealth to Invisibility - the latter needs the former as a skill, but even minor investment+skill will be better than just the skill.
Compare scouting ahead to divination or summons or several other magical abilities.
- Spells being limited per day often isn't a limitation at allCompare a protective fighter (=tank) with Summon Monster. The latter has several innate advantages- it's inherently expendable (and so does not care about lost hitpoints or inflictions taken) and it's perfectly loyal and willing to take those hits. But it can also easily have higher reach, special attacks and so on that the fighter can't get.
Compare acrobatics, climb, ride, swim or any movement-related feat to spells. Flight obviates most of the need for the first three, several spells obviate the need for the latter.
Compare Stealth to Invisibility - the latter needs the former as a skill, but even minor investment+skill will be better than just the skill.
Compare scouting ahead to divination or summons or several other magical abilities.
Numerous ways to get more spells per day aside, and later the very high number of spells (22+ at 9th level, or thereabouts), there's also the issue that a lot of scenarios are not endurance-tests. And so, when the wizard runs out of spells - the party rests. At that point it becomes irrelevant that the mundanes can go on all day (actually, until they run out of hitpoints, which are also tied to spells...) because the party as a whole takes a break.
Now, if you actually wanted to have a "swiss-army knife" character - then your best bet would be in fixing the first issue.
If your character is capable of everything, the character should be worse at each thing than a character dedicated to it.
The character should also have a main thing to do that is unique, and doesn't infringe on others people ability.
The stereotypical D&D-wizard here would thus blast with some spells (possibly all day long), and have spells that can fill gaps in the partys capabilities, but will be outdone by party members that can actually do that one thing - in addition to providing a few unique things (such as teleportation or planar travel) that don't infringe upon other party members abilities.
Gavoon
Genuine Gangplank
- Location
- USA
As a longtime player of martial classes, I can safely say that magic users are generally just better than the classes I prefer to play. I mean, ya I'm more tanky and I can hit the enemies more - but it doesn't matter when the wizard lightning bolts the enemy before I can even get in range. They get better and more interesting upgrades every few levels while I get another attack and an additional feat / stat increase. The feats are boring and incredibly focused on certain builds, so those are basically out. So I get to throw another two points in Str or Con, which in the long run really doesn't change much - plus one hp per level and better saves or plus one to hit and one extra damage.
I know what I'm getting into when I pick fighter, this shit has been going on for a long time.
This is in 5e of course, I haven't played the previous editions since this one came out.
I know what I'm getting into when I pick fighter, this shit has been going on for a long time.
This is in 5e of course, I haven't played the previous editions since this one came out.
Feats were invented as a way to help make things more interesting, but really were far too mild for the job.
Rage powers, vigilante specialties, and the like are a bit closer to what's needed, but they still come thinner and fewer than spells and the really cool stuff, be it feats or powers, often each requires a different chain- spellcasters don't have to work from level 1 with each spell school!
IMO, more specialized magic classes like the summoner and kineticist make more sense, most magic users really should be focused. You summon or you blast or you mind zap, with only minor and lower-level access to other areas. The Bard, not the wizard, should be the all around class.
Rage powers, vigilante specialties, and the like are a bit closer to what's needed, but they still come thinner and fewer than spells and the really cool stuff, be it feats or powers, often each requires a different chain- spellcasters don't have to work from level 1 with each spell school!
IMO, more specialized magic classes like the summoner and kineticist make more sense, most magic users really should be focused. You summon or you blast or you mind zap, with only minor and lower-level access to other areas. The Bard, not the wizard, should be the all around class.
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5E is already better about that in that area in that you fighting enemys is staying relevant for much longer then in prior editions.
Gavoon
Genuine Gangplank
- Location
- USA
I mean, sitting in the front and being a meat shield (even if I am useful) is not exactly what I would call fun. I want to be able to do something interesting while still being useful. As a supposed master of combat you'd think I could do something in combat that other classes can't. But nope, I'm mostly just better with weapons.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Straight up, DnD's biggest flaw in my eyes is that the spell list needs to be cut way the hell down and partially transferred to other classes. I don't think that obviating fighting classes is as big an issue in 5e, but stuff like Knock, Teleport, a lot of divination, and, to a degree, Magic Weapon need to be cut out/only be given to non-wizard casting classes (Arcane Tricksters getting Knock is probably fine, fr'ex).
I feel like your plan B for locked doors if no-one picked a rogue should be 'solve a puzzle' or 'kick it in/blow it up'.
What class/build are you playing? I can help you out.
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- Location
- Drachyench on Discord
What about Knowledge: Architecture?
MiracleGrow
Miracles for only $19.99 [They/Them]
- Location
- DOOR STUCK DOOR STUCK PLEASE I BEG U
They way we deal with Wizard Spell bloat is to use other 'Wizard substitutes'.
Like the Wu Jen for instance. It still has a good amount of flexibility but its focused on more elemental and eastern themed magic. It narrows the scope of the mage a bit and makes it fit a theme. Or we dive into The Book of Weeaboo Fightan Magic and make gishes of some sort.
Even then we still have the occasional Wizard. But everyone in our group trusts one another to not go completely overboard when playing the Wizard.
Like the Wu Jen for instance. It still has a good amount of flexibility but its focused on more elemental and eastern themed magic. It narrows the scope of the mage a bit and makes it fit a theme. Or we dive into The Book of Weeaboo Fightan Magic and make gishes of some sort.
Even then we still have the occasional Wizard. But everyone in our group trusts one another to not go completely overboard when playing the Wizard.
- Location
- .
So, I recently got into D&D.
I sorta played a little bit, but never got into it.
Now that I am stuck on base with nothing better to do, I started playing.
Half the players like trying to fuck with me in real life, so I enjoy fucking them in game.
Now half of them are planing on killing me, even the DM is joking about it, but he is playing it fair.
I am playing as a Drow Wizard.
My spells this far are orb of darkness, dancing lights, fairy fire, and levitate (Via a medallion, I was allowed it because I said my character came from Menzobranzan where all noble house shown have said medallion to let them levitate.)
I chose Animate Rope and Greese as my starting spells, and looked up Rune Spells via pointing out they existed in a D&D book, and a drow wizard learned them.
So I got Hold Portal and Shield as rune spells.
I clarified that I would use blood to draw the runes.
And there is a blood ocean next to us.
Saddly, I was half way writing this post when the three found my character and my ally ran off for different reasons.
So I am facing down a Minotar, a Dragonborn, and a Demon.
And I am winning. Sorta. I am giving more than I take, and so far I have been rolling well and them not so well. I am losing because I am getting nickled and dimed to death, but if it keeps up as is I might win.
God I love support spells. I havent used Greese yet, I am about to use it on the floor and start choking them to death with my rope and alternate between that and greesing their weapons/the floor.
I think I might tie them together.
We just took a break because duty called, But its my turn next.
Any suggestions? If this doesn't work I'm going to run off and try for some local guard that I know is near by.
Edit: Fucking autocorrect wants "if" to be "of".
I sorta played a little bit, but never got into it.
Now that I am stuck on base with nothing better to do, I started playing.
Half the players like trying to fuck with me in real life, so I enjoy fucking them in game.
Now half of them are planing on killing me, even the DM is joking about it, but he is playing it fair.
I am playing as a Drow Wizard.
My spells this far are orb of darkness, dancing lights, fairy fire, and levitate (Via a medallion, I was allowed it because I said my character came from Menzobranzan where all noble house shown have said medallion to let them levitate.)
I chose Animate Rope and Greese as my starting spells, and looked up Rune Spells via pointing out they existed in a D&D book, and a drow wizard learned them.
So I got Hold Portal and Shield as rune spells.
I clarified that I would use blood to draw the runes.
And there is a blood ocean next to us.
Saddly, I was half way writing this post when the three found my character and my ally ran off for different reasons.
So I am facing down a Minotar, a Dragonborn, and a Demon.
And I am winning. Sorta. I am giving more than I take, and so far I have been rolling well and them not so well. I am losing because I am getting nickled and dimed to death, but if it keeps up as is I might win.
God I love support spells. I havent used Greese yet, I am about to use it on the floor and start choking them to death with my rope and alternate between that and greesing their weapons/the floor.
I think I might tie them together.
We just took a break because duty called, But its my turn next.
Any suggestions? If this doesn't work I'm going to run off and try for some local guard that I know is near by.
Edit: Fucking autocorrect wants "if" to be "of".
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mothematics
How wide is the concept of "you"?
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- the bottom of a coffee cup
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- She/Her
Grease, then fire of some kind, generally means BOOM.
Unrelated, I have a rewrite of the FRCS drow in (pretty early on mind you) in-prog. Would anyone like me to share it here? @Revlid in particular I feel would like it and I've already run it past @Winged Knight.
E-sadly it will have to wait until I'm at a computer... -_-
Unrelated, I have a rewrite of the FRCS drow in (pretty early on mind you) in-prog. Would anyone like me to share it here? @Revlid in particular I feel would like it and I've already run it past @Winged Knight.
E-sadly it will have to wait until I'm at a computer... -_-
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Gavoon
Genuine Gangplank
- Location
- USA
Fighter, and I tend to go with the Battlemaster archetype.
- Location
- .
A bit of an update, our DM apparently was a new DM and got tired of the concept. So the game is over.
Mostly because of the three guys bitching about how one weak player could be beating three heavies in mostly hand to hand combat and no combat spells.
Edit: Dear God the amount of butt hurt.
Mostly because of the three guys bitching about how one weak player could be beating three heavies in mostly hand to hand combat and no combat spells.
Edit: Dear God the amount of butt hurt.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Oh, man, then doing cool stuff is easy.
Disclaimer: I'm assuming you're melee for this, if you're ranged my recommendations change.
Fundamentally, as a Fighter you're serving as a direct, single target damage dealer, even in a ranged build. If you want a more mobile combatant, Monk and Rogue are both bigger on darting around the battlefield. Combat fun generally comes from making your role interesting.
Once you hit L3 that's pretty easy, but before then you're relatively limited. Your big options before then are Grappling, Shoving, and Disarming. All three options, in practical terms, rely on teamwork.
Disarming an enemy is a solid option, as your relevant modifier tends to be way better than enemies skill checks and it can massively reduce the lethality of a foe to remove their primary weapon (Go for Arcane Focuses if fighting casters, Casters tend to be terrible at resisting disarm attempts, go for dextrous enemies if you can't reach casters, they tend to have lower Acrobatics than Strong enemies have Athletics). An Orog without its greataxe is swinging a far less dangerous Javelin at you, a Yuan-ti with no poisoned weapons loses half their DPR and Casters that use staves and staffs can be crippled if you get it away from them. This may be a two-person job, depending on if your DM lets you kick disarmed weapons away as your Item Interaction/Bonus Action.
Shoving is nice, but only if you have other melee characters in your party (And don't have too many ranged characters). Prone enemies are way easier to hit in melee, so a stabby rogue, Paladin, transforming Druid, Cleric, or similar specialist will thank you profusely for knocking them down. Grappling is super situational, you use it when you want an enemy to not move, or when you really want the ability to move an enemy. Both Shoving and Grappling get the same caveats as Disarming regarding your bonus vs the enemies bonuses.
All of these become way better once you start getting extra attacks, as each shove/grapple/disarm attempt only uses one of those attacks. So you can, in theory, Shove->Action Surge and swing three times with advantage on a prone foe at L5. Or, one of my favorites, grab an enemy and shove them off a nearby ledge. While casters can, in theory, do these the combination of encouraged stats, attacks per round, and action surge lets the fighter do these incredibly efficiently.
Note: Your DM may not use Disarms/may mechanize opponents in a way that makes Disarms questionably useful.
When it comes to maneuvers, pick things you think would be cool to do to people. Pushing Attack and Trip Attack are both great, Maneuvering Attack lets you get allies out of sticky situations, Menacing Attack makes people terrified of you and is therefore amazing, Commander's Strike can be useful depending heavily on your team comp (Sharpshooter Archers and high single-attack damage characters are great targets for it. Give your Rogue a free Sneak Attack on a prone enemy, for example) and once you've passed L5 (So you can use a maneuver on your first attack and then give up your second to an ally. Shoving and then Commander's Strike with the aforementioned rogue, fr'ex), Distracting falls under similar rules to Commander's Strike, Goading is a nice aggro ability, Feinting/Piercing attack are both simple but very practical options that increase DPR.
If it's an option, go for Feats (Especially Chargen feats with Variant Human). Great Weapon Fighting and Sharpshooter are both amazing, and in general Feats give you new and interesting options for combat. They are competing with precious stat bonuses, though.
The playstyle isn't for everyone, but me and my brother both tend to play Battlemaster Fighters in this manner and enjoy it, so I recommend giving it a shot.
You should not be proud of this, especially with the amount of homebrewed freebies you needed to ruin a game for other people.
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