Remove ads

Dungeons and Dragons Megathread

Reader mode
I've heard that in 4e Monster Manual 3 is the only good one, but is there a way to fix the monsters in one and two?
 
Last edited:
Chloe Sullivan said:
It's been several years since I played anything that had spells. :p I'm the dude who is always pushing AMS.

Though yeah, i did institute a "have the stats for your minion creatures at the table or i throw them offscreen" rule as a DM. Totally fine with spell look ups though.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

You were talking about running a game this summer awhile back, are you still thinking about it?
 
notanautomaton said:
I've heard that in 4e Monster Manual 3 is the only good one, but is there a way to fix the monsters in one and two?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
MM3 is good because it redid the underlying math behind monster stat blocks to effectively reduce HP and increase damage so that combat wouldn't be as much of a slog. I've never DMed 4e, only played it, but I assume it'd be possible to recalculate monster statistics from MM1 and MM2 with the errata'd monster creation guidelines from the DMG here on page 4 of the PDF. My weak google fu also found this discussion on ENWorld about the changed math, which might offer some insight.

So it's not an impossible thing, just requires a bit of work and math. It's good practice if you ever intend to use homebrew monsters too.
 
Last edited:
Remove ads
Havocfett Homebrew: Mass Combat Rules
  • Threadmarks
    • So I've been prototyping some ideas for enemies:

    First are different mob/military unit rules. Basically treating a mob of creatures as one creature with a single statblock, with dropping it to 0 health representing routing the unit (Instead of killing every member), and rules for increasing the effectiveness of AOE spells deployed against the unit. The big things are how to represent all the attacks without just going 'roll ten attacks', and rules for dropping the number of models in the unit before the unit as a whole routs.

    This should, ideally, result in:
    More easily manageable large battles
    Reasonably sane outcomes (The best way to kill lots of dudes shouldn't be high single-target damage)
    Enemies that retreat instead of fighting to the death all the time
    A mass of enemies being easier to defeat than the equivalent number of enemies run as individuals
    A mass of enemies being worth less experience than the equivalent number of enemies run as individuals

    Currently thinking something along the lines of:

    Squad of Goblins (Squadlin):
    AC: 15
    HP: 49
    Abilities: As Goblin
    Saves: As Goblin
    Skills: As Goblin
    Speed: As Goblin
    Challenge: 2 (450 xp) to 3 (700 xp), playtesting has not yet occured.
    Special Rules:
    Squad (20): A Squadlin is actually twenty absolutely normal goblins and, as such, is made up of twenty goblins that each take up a five by five square. If subjected to an Area of Effect attack, the Squadlin takes damage for each individual goblin who would be hit by the attack but only rolls its save once. In combat, all goblins will attempt to stay no more than ten feet from the nearest other goblin, and no more than 100 feet from the farthest other goblin.

    Mob (7): Each Goblin has 7 health. If an individual Goblin takes 7 or more damage from any one source, it is destroyed and the Squadlin's max health is reduced by 7. The Squadlin cannot take more than 7 damage per goblin targeted by any given attack or other effect. If the Squadlin suffers from an effect that would not effect all of the Goblins within it, it can sacrifice a Goblin (And the 7 health associated) per effected goblin to end the effect.

    All Goblin Traits

    Attacks    :
    Multiattack: A Squadlin makes three attacks, which can be any combination of Squad Spear or Squad Bow attacks.

    Squad Spear: DC 12 Armor Save. 10 Piercing Damage on failure, 5 Piercing Damage on success. If 22 or more, take no damage.

    Squad Bow: Range 80/240. DC 12 Armor Save. 10 Piercing Damage on failure, 5 Piercing Damage on success.

    New Concept: Armor Save

    An Armor Save is simply a roll using the bonus to your roll you would get if you used the Defense Roll Variant Rule from Unearthed Arcana

    If you don't want to use an armor save, instead treat a Squad's attack bonus as its save DC-8. It rolls its attack once, and compares the result against the ACs of all of its targets. On a success, the targets take full damage. Otherwise, they take half damage.

    Second are more interesting melee/martial enemies. Using stuff like the Battlemaster, Swashbuckler, Mastermind, and various RPG bosses as inspirations for ways to make mid-high level melee/martial enemies more interesting. Giving a boss that's meant to be, say, a master duelist three or four Recharge 6/5-6 abilities that each have interesting effects based on positioning, for example. The #DnD crowd (@Dekutulla, @LupineVolt, @ZerbanDaGreat, and @DissMech) have all seen the beginnings of this in the Lady Hanower fight, but I want to do more with it.

    Orog Champion:
    AC: 18
    Hit Points: 59
    Speed: 30 feet
    Abilities: As Orog
    Skills: As Orog
    Senses: Darkvision 60 feet, passive Perception 10
    Languages: Common, Orc
    Challenge: 4 (1100 xp)
    Special Traits:
    Aggressive: As a bonus action, the orog can move up to its speed toward a hostile creature that it can see.

    Actions:
    Multiattack: The Orog makes two Greatsword attacks

    Greatsword: Melee Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 11 slashing damage

    Javelin: Melee or Ranged Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, reach 5 feet or range 30/120 ft. One target. Hit: 7 piercing damage.

    Leaping Strike: Recharge 6. Set movement to 0, jump to a point within 30 feet. All creatures within 5 feet of that square must make a DC 14 Strength Save. On failure, be knocked back 5 feet, be knocked prone, and take 14 slashing damage.

    Terrifying Charge: Recharge 5-6. Pick a hostile creature that can be reached this turn but is at least twenty feet away. Move towards them, making an attack with +6 to hit and dealing 14 slashing damage on hit. That creature must make a DC 14 Wisdom Save or become Frightened of the Orog for 1d4 rounds.

    Sweeping Blow: Recharge 5-6. Roll a Greatsword attack against a hostile creature, as well as all hostile creatures (And any unattended objects, at the Orog's discretion) adjacent to that creature. All targets who were attacked cannot use Reactions until the end of the Orog's turn.


    I invite brave and entrepreneurial 5e DMs to use these creatures to see how well the mechanics work.
     
    Last edited:
  • Threadmarks
    • Havocfett said:
    So I've been prototyping some ideas for enemies:

    First are different mob/military unit rules. Basically treating a mob of creatures as one creature with a single statblock, with dropping it to 0 health representing routing the unit (Instead of killing every member), and rules for increasing the effectiveness of AOE spells deployed against the unit. The big things are how to represent all the attacks without just going 'roll ten attacks', and rules for dropping the number of models in the unit before the unit as a whole routs.

    This should, ideally, result in:
    More easily manageable large battles
    Reasonably sane outcomes (The best way to kill lots of dudes shouldn't be high single-target damage)
    Enemies that retreat instead of fighting to the death all the time
    A mass of enemies being easier to defeat than the equivalent number of enemies run as individuals
    A mass of enemies being worth less experience than the equivalent number of enemies run as individuals

    Currently thinking something along the lines of:

    Squad of Goblins (Squadlin):
    AC: 15
    HP: 49
    Abilities: As Goblin
    Saves: As Goblin
    Skills: As Goblin
    Speed: As Goblin
    Challenge: 2 (450 xp) to 3 (700 xp), playtesting has not yet occured.
    Special Rules:
    Squad: A Squadlin is actually twenty absolutely normal goblins and, as such, is made up of twenty goblins that each take up a five by five square. If subjected to an Area of Effect attack, the Squadlin takes damage for each individual goblin who would be hit by the attack but only rolls its save once. In combat, all Squadlins will attempt to stay no more than ten feet from the nearest other Squadlin, and no more than 100 feet from the farthest other Squadlin. If an individual Goblin takes more than 7 or more damage from any one source, it is destroyed and the Squadlin's max health is reduced by 7.

    All Goblin Traits

    Attacks    :
    Multiattack: A Squadlin makes three attacks, which can be any combination of Squad Spear or Squad Bow attacks.

    Squad Spear: DC 12 Armor Save. 10 Piercing Damage on failure, 5 Piercing Damage on success. If 22 or more, take no damage.

    Squad Bow: Range 80/240. DC 12 Armor Save. 10 Piercing Damage on failure, 5 Piercing Damage on success. If 22 or more, take no damage.

    New Concept: Armor Save

    An Armor Save is simply a roll using the bonus to your roll you would get if you used the Defense Roll Variant Rule from Unearthed Arcana

    If you don't want to use an armor save, instead treat a Squad's attack bonus as its save DC-8. It rolls its attack once, and compares the result against the ACs of all of its targets. On a success, the targets take full damage. Otherwise, they take half damage. If the attack misses by more than 10, it deals no damage.

    Second are more interesting melee/martial enemies. Using stuff like the Battlemaster, Swashbuckler, Mastermind, and various RPG bosses as inspirations for ways to make mid-high level melee/martial enemies more interesting. Giving a boss that's meant to be, say, a master duelist three or four Recharge 6/5-6 abilities that each have interesting effects based on positioning, for example. The #DnD crowd (@Dekutulla, @LupineVolt, @ZerbanDaGreat, and @DissMech) have all seen the beginnings of this in the Lady Hanower fight, but I want to do more with it.

    Orog Champion:
    AC: 18
    Hit Points: 59
    Speed: 30 feet
    Abilities: As Orog
    Skills: As Orog
    Senses: Darkvision 60 feet, passive Perception 10
    Languages: Common, Orc
    Challenge: 4 (1100 xp)
    Special Traits:
    Aggressive: As a bonus action, the orog can move up to its speed toward a hostile creature that it can see.

    Actions:
    Multiattack: The Orog makes two Greatsword attacks

    Greatsword: Melee Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 11 slashing damage

    Javelin: Melee or Ranged Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, reach 5 feet or range 30/120 ft. One target. Hit: 7 piercing damage.

    Leaping Strike: Recharge 6. Set movement to 0, jump to a point within 30 feet. All creatures within 5 feet of that square must make a DC 14 Strength Save. On failure, be knocked back 5 feet, be knocked prone, and take 14 slashing damage.

    Terrifying Charge: Recharge 5-6. Pick a hostile creature that can be reached this turn but is at least twenty feet away. Move towards them, making an attack with +6 to hit and dealing 14 slashing damage on hit. That creature must make a DC 14 Wisdom Save or become Frightened of the Orog for 1d4 rounds.

    Sweeping Blow: Recharge 5-6. Roll a Greatsword attack against a hostile creature, as well as all hostile creatures (And any unattended objects, at the Orog's discretion) adjacent to that creature. All targets who were attacked cannot use Reactions until the end of the Orog's turn.


    I invite brave and entrepreneurial 5e DMs to use these creatures to see how well the mechanics work.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    This motherfucker's boss jumped off her horse onto the walls of a fort we were occupying, avoiding all the melee fighters and landing right between the Warlock and the Cleric. She then critted the cleric and took on everyone else while the paladin was too busy fighting her horse to come heal the cleric until the battle was over.

    That was a fun afternoon.
     
    Note that squading up weaker monsters considerably weakens them in 5e. Far more important than AC and HP is attacks/round. Even weak opponents can whittle down high level PCs with more attacks/round. It also makes AoE attacks very useful as they clear our lots of threats quickly.
     
    Aaron Peori said:
    Note that squading up weaker monsters considerably weakens them in 5e. Far more important than AC and HP is attacks/round. Even weak opponents can whittle down high level PCs with more attacks/round. It also makes AoE attacks very useful as they clear our lots of threats quickly.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    Yup, that ended up being a known side-effect of this. I ended up deciding that reduced lethality was worth the reduced DM overhead, and couldn't find a decent workaround that didn't either A) reduce letahlity (My solution) or B) defeated the point of Squadding up weak dudes in the first place (Putting the X number of attacks back in).

    EDIT: I am, of course, entirely open to suggestions.
     
    Last edited:
    Aaron Peori Homebrew: Mob Monster Trait
  • Threadmarks
    • Hmm. Okay, some quick commentary then.

    You not only want to emulate lots of attacks, you want to emulate how hard it is to kill them all with individual attacks. thus I suggest the following.

    New Monster Trait: Mob (X).
    This trait will appear in the Vulnerabilites, Resistance and Immunites section on the monsters statistic block. This trait indicate that the monster is actually a mob of smaller, weaker monsters acting in tandem. The value of X is considered the maximum HP of any individual monster in the mob. Single target attacks and spells that do damage in excess of the value X have their damage reduced to X. The mob then losses that many HP from its maximum HP value. Additionally, if the mob is effected by a spell or other special ability that only effects a single target it may immediately recover from status by lowering its current and maximum HP by X. Area effect spells or attacks that effect multiple targets at once ignore this damage limit.
     
  • Threadmarks
    • Aaron Peori said:
    Note that squading up weaker monsters considerably weakens them in 5e. Far more important than AC and HP is attacks/round. Even weak opponents can whittle down high level PCs with more attacks/round. It also makes AoE attacks very useful as they clear our lots of threats quickly.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    Is also the case with pathfinder/3.754225
    Orcs + rage + skald for more rage = waterfall of mean.

    How would a Tercio-ish thing do barring AOE's?
    left being front:
    [1][2][3][4]

    1: Heavy crossbows, tower shields (on back), some bashy backup weapon.
    [2]+ longspear, buckler.

    Basically lunge on as much as possible ad the crossbow guys pull back into the second line.

    So the front rank reaches 2/3
    The second normally non-reach dudes can lunge and reach the guys standing in front
    third rank can lunge+reach and also stab what is in front.

    Alternatively just longspear everything and lol why not.
    You can make it more dickish by giving them ranseurs or whatever but this is already "park your characte tere and enjoy getting stabbed in the face half a milion times"
     
    Havocfett said:
    I invite brave and entrepreneurial 5e DMs to use these creatures to see how well the mechanics work.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    While I'm not one of these yet...
    a) Is there a mechanic for the Squadlin weakening as its members die or flee?
    b) I don't see anything for engulfing or outflanking or genuinely mobbing a target, which is what I'd be worried about as a lone adventurer facing 20 goblins/a swarm of giant rats/angry villagers.
    c) 7 x 20 =/= 49
     
    I've just capped off my first ever tabletop game buying splurge with the three 5th Edition corebooks, and I regret absolutely nothing :D

    5E sounds accessible yet with just enough crunch to give it structure, and that's exactly what I'm looking for.
     
    Out of curiosity... why doesn't D&D treat arcane magic like Bloodborne magic, as the baseline?

    To clarify, since that could mean lots of things, starting with "fuelled by blood-soaked bullets" and ending with "ripped from the dreams of mad gods", I'm specifically referring to the fact that player-usable magic in Bloodborne is actually a series of Hunter's Tools. With only one exception, they're potent items which your Arcane stat lets you employ, rather than magical chants you perform or whatever. Instead of "Enchant Weapon" you have the Empty Phantasm Shell, which is the shed skin of a cosmic horror's pet slug that you can rub onto your blade to temporarily add Arcane damage. Instead of "Lightning Bolt" you have the Tiny Tonitrus, a part-mechanical part-mystical coil-rod that can be struck on the ground to unleash a burst of electricity.

    Given that D&D wizards already have to spend time sitting down and preparing their stuff, and (in the versions of the system that I'm familiar with) already need to have access to appropriate materials to cast their spells (the classic being guano for fireballs), why aren't they just crafting limited-use magic items that their arcane expertise is required to use?

    Rather than sitting down and spending their time memorizing spells which they forget when cast (in a deeply flawed emulation of Jack Vance), why isn't Fireball a alchemical firebomb that you spend your "meditation" time crafting, and you can't use more than once because it's already blown up? Why isn't True Seeing an ointment that you rub on your eyelids, or a lens that eventually darkens under the strain of the arcane formulas etched into it and needs to be ritually polished?

    That makes more sense, to me, and it's actually more in line with what wizards in pre-D&D stories tend to do. It wouldn't even necessarily change anything, mechanically.
     
    Last edited:
    Simple answer: Because the makers of it's various settings didn't treat it like that. (duh)

    Longer answer: If you want to play a Wizard (or other prepared spellcaster) like that - hey, that's called refluffling, it can be awesome, and it certainly fits near-perfectly with the rules (basically the only difference is that while a spellbook can be stolen, memorized spells can not - the same goes not for prepared magic items like you describe).
     
    Revlid said:
    Given that D&D wizards already have to spend time sitting down and preparing their stuff, and (in the versions of the system that I'm familiar with) already need to have access to appropriate materials to cast their spells (the classic being guano for fireballs), why aren't they just crafting limited-use magic items or potions that their arcane expertise is required to use?
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    A significant number of spells don't use material components or foci, though. Grabbing my 1e AD&D PHB, I find the following magic-user spells to have no material component:
    • 1st level: affect normal fires; burning hands; charm person; detect magic; erase; hold portal; light; magic missile; shield; shocking grasp
    • 2nd level: continual light; detect evil; forget; knock; mirror image; pyrotechnics; ray of enfeeblement; wizard lock
    • 3rd level: blink; dispel magic; explosive runes; feign death; hold person
    • 4th level: charm monster; dimension door; extension I; plant growth; polymorph self; remove curse
    • 5th level: animal growth; cloudkill; contact other plane; extension II; telekinesis; teleport
    • 6th level: anti-magic shell; extension III; geas
    • 7th level: limited wish; phase door; power word, stun; vanish
    • 8th level: mass charm; maze; mind blank; Otto's Irresistable Dance; power word, blind
    • 9th level: astral spell; gate; imprisonment / freedom; meteor swarm; power word, kill; prismatic sphere; time stop; wish
    Admittedly, limited wish and wish incur a cost of one or three years' unnatural aging per casting under 1e rules, with the cost of a scroll-borne copy being incurred at the time of writing, not the time of use.
     
    Chloe Sullivan said:
    *again points at 3.5's mob as swarm subtype system*
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    I dont think I have that sourcebook, Chloe.

    Revlid said:
    While I'm not one of these yet...
    a) Is there a mechanic for the Squadlin weakening as its members die or flee?
    b) I don't see anything for engulfing or outflanking or genuinely mobbing a target, which is what I'd be worried about as a lone adventurer facing 20 goblins/a swarm of giant rats/angry villagers.
    c) 7 x 20 =/= 49
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    So these all kind of tie in together.

    So I've given the squadlin about one attack for six members and given it the health of six members. To represent the entire blobbing effect, those attacks don't work like attacks from normal creatures, as they do damage on misses/successful saves. It's currently calibrated to assume 2 hits from regular goblins on a failed save and 1 on a successful save (this is not completely accurate unless your entire party is reasonably high AC but it ended up being reasonably elegant). To represent the fact that military units tend to rout instead of fighting to the death, the Squadlin rubs out of health after about a third of its members have died. Conveniently, this also means that the point where the squadlin would start losing attacks is the point where the surviving goblins decide that they'd like to live long enough to see their children grow up/kick puppies tomorrow instead of today (depending on your goblins) and rout.

    If I wanted to simulate a braver Squadlin I could raise the health by some multiple of 7, or a more accurate squadlin by messing with the attacks per round (perhaps Hydra rules, with 1 attack per x surviving models, or a random number each turn with a bonus based on the surviving gobs, this would also simulate reduced effective was as the Squadlin was weakened).

    I'm at dawn prayers, I'll draft up some concepts after I get home and finish sleeping.
     
    grommile said:
    A significant number of spells don't use material components or foci, though.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    I guess this is where it comes down to personal taste, and I'm of the view that Wizards and Clerics probably shouldn't look like they're doing the exact same thing. Wizards requiring foci or catalysts or components (or outright representing all their magic as mystical creations that have to be used rather than arcane finger-wiggling) strikes me as a great way of doing that, and one that rings true for what actual magic users in fantasy and myth tend to do.

    Even if you set his staff aside (and it was an item of power), Gandalf made fireworks, and when he wanted to set wargs on fire he threw magically-burning pinecones. Circe turned people into pigs and wolves with magic herbs and potions, and had her wand. Ozymandias' sorcerers used magic transforming staves and talismans. Solomon had his seal and his various amulets and potions. Grimhild enchanted Siegfried with potions of forgetfulness and love.

    Pretty much all classical "magic" that isn't rooted in this sort of thing is better-represented by other classes – the blessings and divine intervention of Clerics, the inspiring and bewitching songs of Bards, and so on.

    I mean, look at that list of spells with no material component. Just at the First Level I see stuff like Charm Person (hypnotic focus or magical intoxicant), Detect Magic (divining rod, magic compass or glowing crystal) and Light (crystal, lantern or glass orb to focus the light), all of which have such obvious places for foci or components to play a vital role that I've rarely seen even modern fictional magic users not use them. Animal Growth is George's Marvellous Medicine. Cloudkill is a magical chemical weapon, the Martian Black Death. Feign Death is Romeo and Juliet's draught of living death.

    Then again, I also see spells like Knock and Wizard Lock and wonder why the hell anyone would have written spells for a Wizard to do the Rogue's job for them, so maybe this is just coming down to "I think it's cooler". Throne of the Crescent Moon is the most D&D book I've read in ages, and its two wizards near-exclusively make use of magical tools and concoctions (e.g. lightning trapped in pearls) or esoteric wisdom that is not, in itself, magical.
     
    Last edited:
    You have a fair point, but I feel compelled to point out that the Light cantrip inherently requires you to cast it on something, which is what then casts the light.

    I also question why you think Teleport is the rogue's job. Transportation generally is a task for the whole party - or whoever has the highest cha.
     
    Reader mode
    You must login or register to reply here.
    Remove ads
    Back
    Top