Confringentur 2; a Madoka Magica / Fate/Stay Night sequel

[SVS]

[X] Plan: Like Father Like Daughter

---

"So, that's the story," you say. "That's where we stand now. That's where I stand now."

You had not gone into this meeting wanting to come right out and just say "I'm technically a witch now," but you knew that getting the truth out there now, rather than waiting and hoping to dance around the subject when the time came to introduce your new bird familiars to the rest of your teammates who weren't there before, would ultimately be for the best.

Besides, maybe the brazenness of coming right out and saying it will make them think it's just a joke.

"Sis, don't joke around like that." But apparently it did not. Kirika stares at you, her eyes blazing with a mix of concern for your safety, and anger at the fat that you'd even say something like that. "It's not funny. What if you'd actually turned? Do you think we'd be laughing then? What would mom and dad say if we'd lost you?"

"I know." You can see Archer, standing silently with his arms crossed over his chest as he stares at you. You feel your stomach drop and your butthole clench as you realise just how badly you're going to get it from him and Minako later. "But I'm not trying to make a joke, Kirika. According to Juubey, I'm a witch now, because I'm able to take my Grief and give it life."

Standing beside you, coming no further up your leg than Amy does, is Juubey. He remains motionless, save for the pendulum swing of his bushy white tail as he stares at the rest of your teammates.

"I have… several questions." Kanna Niko has raised her hand – her left, while Kazumi keeps a tight squeeze on her right – and asks "First of all, how? You're still… I mean, you're still you, right? How the hell are you a witch?"

"Well, that's the thing,' you say. "I'm not actually a witch, at least not by the standard we're used to. I'm still me. But according to Juubey-" Who nods his head as you mention his name, "-the fact that I can now give life to my Grief means that I technically count as a witch."

"It is an exceedingly rare event for a puella magi to mature into a witch while still retaining their mortal selves," Juubey says, repeating what he told you earlier in the day. "Before this, the feat had not been accomplished for almost a thousand years. As I told Akemi Homura, the occasion is so rare that the Collective possess no adequate word to describe it. So unless the Collective decides to create a new word – a suggestion which I have raised in light of the changes to the system that your method has proposed – 'witch' will have to do when describing Akemi Homura."

Juubey turns its head towards Kazumi, the first such instance of it moving save for its tail since it first sat down beside you. "As I understand your situation, Kazusa Michiru, you are also witch, though your own circumstances are much different from Akemi Homura's. In truth, you are the first witch to have regained her mortal self that I am aware of. I am curious to know whether you have retained any of your former abilities, or whether you are limited to those belonging to the mortal Kazusa Michiru."

"Um…" Kazumi turns her head to Kanna Niko, whose gaze meets hers. Neither appears to know how to respond to the other. Kazumi then turns to Scáthach, as well as to Lancer and Assassin. "Is that something I should be practicing?" she asks, and you aren't really sure to whom she asks her question.

"If you wanted to," Scáthach says to her master," I would first suggest asking Akemi how she accomplished her own feat." Scáthach's eyes bore down on you, almost as intensely as Archer and Kirika, and she says to you "While I told her before, and would strongly advise her to remember, what she did was incredibly dangerous. It could just as easily have backfired on her and killed her, and I do not wish to see you harmed if it can be avoided, master."

"You know, this might not actually be the worst thing in the world for us."

Everyone currently attending the team meeting turns their head towards Nurse Ortensia when she speaks up, to which she responds by saying "Don't look at me like that." Her rebuttal only causes everyone to stare even harder. "Look, I won't pretend like I know how your magical girl system works or whatever, outside of the basics that you've all been so kind enough as to shove down my throat, but I think you're all missing something about this."

"Which is what?" Kyouko asks. "'Cause, from where I stand, ain't witches just nothing but bad news for us? I mean, we got this Sidonia bitch causing all sorts'a trouble fer us, then before her we had that one Assassin servant that looked like a fucking kiddie prostitute-" Kyouko's hands ball up as she speaks of the Assassin servant you encountered last year. The serial killer who called herself 'Jack the Ripper' was a wraith who was both servant and witch at once, and was responsible for at least a dozen deaths before you stopped her.

One of those deaths was a girl named Chitose Yuma, who had accidentally summoned her, and who Kyouko had adopted as a surrogate younger sister. Her death hit Kyouko exceptionally hard, and served as one of the major catalysts for recruiting Kyouko to your side, if only so she could take revenge on Jack the Ripper for Chitose Yuma's sake.

Sometimes, you think Kyouko still cries at her loss.

"-So how the fuck're ya figuring this is any good fer us, Nurse O? 'Cause from where I'm sitting, witches that could think and act like people are just trouble waiting ta happen."

"Well, that right there seems to be part of why you don't see it," Nurse Ortensia says. "At least as far as I understand it, Akemi is a witch because you people don't have a better word to describe her, and not because she's actually the sort of soul-eating monstrosity you're used to going up against crammed into an Akemi-shaped body. So that's one."

Nurse Ortensia counts off on her fingers, turning her head towards you and staring, for what feels like an uncomfortably long period of time. "Second, while I might not understand much about your system, from what Akemi has described to me of Sidonia, she might not want all of you quite as dead as you think. Consider the number of times she's had you all in her sights. We know she's got stronger familiars than those wolves she keeps throwing at you; if she really wanted you all dead, she'd probably just drop a few dozen of those serpents at your doorstep and call it a day. But she doesn't. I'm not saying you all don't infuriate her, but if she believes she's doing all of this for other magic-uses like herself, then maybe she'd prefer if she didn't have to kill you. If Akemi is now that much closer to being like her, what with the ability to make familiars out of Grief the way she does, maybe Sidonia would be less inclined to want Akemi dead? You could use that to your advantage."

"Yes, but that also relies on you being correct in your assumptions," Tomoe-san says to Nurse Ortensia. "So far, it seems more likely that Sidonia has not sent kill teams to our doorsteps because she's saving herself for the first of the month. Even with access to a near-unlimited supply of Grief from Walpurgisnacht's Grief Seed, I can't imagine she can just instantly make more of her familiars. The larger ones especially must take a considerable amount of time and effort to create."

Oriko, on whose lap Kirika is seated, chews her lower lip, and you can see her face scrunch up as her hand leaves its place stroking through Kirika's hair as she moves it to under her chin. "Oriko?" Kirika asks. "What's wrong?"

"I'm just thinking, dearest," Oriko says. "I don't know if I agree with what Caren-san is saying. It sounds like it makes sense, on the surface, but I think Tomoe-san has a better point. Sidonia is bracing herself for impact and consolidating her forces for one final push against us on the first. So using Akemi-san's newfound… Nature-" The word leaves Oriko's mouth with more than a little unease. "-Is probably out of the question. But what if through it, she were able to replicate what Sidonia is doing? Maybe she could even find a way to take control of Sidonia's familiars away from her? I know it would be dangerous, and I hesitate to even make the suggestion. But it's a possibility."

"That sounds absolutely too dangerous for me to be okay with it," Archer says. Seated in Oriko's lap, Kirika nods her head, agreeing with your father in his assessment. "Besides that, there's not enough time for Homura to really master… This." Like Oriko, the uneasiness in Archer's voice at your state does not go unnoticed as he makes mention of it. "So I don't know if she'd be able to just outright yank control of Sidonia's familiars away from her after just a single day."

Archer turns towards you, shooting you a stern glare as he adds "Not that I'd even be comfortable with letting Homura try, for that matter. She might still be herself right now, but if we let her play around and experiment with Walpurgisnacht's Grief Seed, she might turn into a witch for real."

The rest of the team remains silent after that. Nobody wants to contemplate the idea of you turning into a real witch. The Pleiades Saints are looking particularly perturbed at the thought, and after losing two of their own, you can't say that you blame them for being hesitant. "Well, I'll admit that I don't know much more than Nurse Ortensia does about the… Inner workings of your system." Except for Hitomi. Hitomi dares to break the silence. "But, Akemi-san, I am curious, what do you plan to do now?"

"Continue experimenting, I guess," you reply. When Archer shoots you another disapproving glare, you counter, saying "I'd feel like I was being irresponsible if, after learning that I could do this, I just sat on it and did nothing. I'll be careful, I promise, but if there's anything else I can learn about this that might be helpful to us in the fight against Sidonia, it's my responsibility to see it through."

That's good enough for Hitomi, but once the rest of the team disperses, Archer, Oriko, and Kirika all approach you. By the look on Archer's face, you aren't getting away from this so easily. "You are in big trouble, little missy," Archer says. "I won't do anything to punish you until this whole mess is taken care of, but you better believe that as soon as November second rolls around, you are going to be grounded for a very, very long time."

You nod your head, and accept Archer's judgement with only minor protest. You look to Oriko and Kirika, hoping that the two of them might be willing to persuade Archer otherwise, but all they can do is shrug their shoulders. "Don't look at me, sis," Kirika says. "You're lucky that you're just getting grounded. What were you thinking, trying something so dangerous?"

"We're just worried about you, Akemi-san," Oriko says. "We don't want to see anything bad happen to you." Oriko's hand reaches over to find its match in Kirika's, and the two share an affectionate squeeze. "I know Kirika would be devastated if she lost you, and so would Minako-san and Archer. I'd feel responsible, too, if I'd let you get hurt because I wasn't looking out for you."

"I promise you, I'll do everything in my power to be as careful as possible," you say. "But, I do wish to continue experimenting with this."

Archer continues to stare, but eventually, his gaze softens. "I know I did some really stupid shit when I was your age," he says. "So I'm not really in a moral position to tell you not to. But I'd feel terrible if I let you get hurt doing something reckless and stupid like this."

"I promise I'll stay safe," you say. "But all the same, thank you for being concerned. It means a lot."

Do you
[ ] Ask Archer about Illya, and if he knows anything about her family
-[ ] Hold that thought until later; you should probably ask Tohsaka-san as well
[ ] Continue practicing by yourself
[ ] Extend invitations to practice with you
-[ ] See if Kazumi can also manipulate her Grief, using just what she already knows and can do
-[ ] Borrow Scáthach and ask if she would be willing to help you instruct her master
-[ ] Invite Misaki Umika, as long as she can control herself; you might need her help with something
-[ ] Maybe Nurse Ortensia would like to practice using her arm against dummy familiars of yours
-[ ] Other; pick someone(s) else you think might either help you practice or who might benefit themselves from joining your practice

BONUS!
Minako is going to be furious when she hears about your escapades today. Is there anything you can think of to mollify her? (write-in)​

 

[SVS]

Stopping here for right now, because some things came up and I wanted to get your thoughts on them. First off, we might want to invite other people with us while we practice. Kazumi is an obvious one; she's also a witch, like we are, and maybe we want to see if she can also access her Grief and do things with it. Scáthach is also also a witch, it was her guidance with Inguz that got us here so maybe she'll have some additional guidance as we further our practice, or maybe she just wants to watch over her master and keep Kazumi safe. Umika might look like a strange inclusion here, but think of it this way- One of the things on the agenda is seeing if we can make familiars for other people. If we want to try that, Umika's ability to play with memories might be useful in helping us metaphorically "get inside" the head of whoever we'd like to try making familiars for, assuming we can trust her not to cock it up. And Caren is obvious; she could probably use more practice using Barbara's arm, we know she has anti-curse and anti-evil magic, so maybe she'd like to practice on some dummy, non-sentient familiars if we felt like helping her. Or not, if we're too squicked out by the sight of her arm melting to want to invite her.

 

[PlaguePaladin]

[X] Plan: Grief Trials
-[X] Ask Archer about Illya, and if he knows anything about her family
-[X] Extend invitations to practice with you
--[X] See if Kazumi can also manipulate her Grief, using just what she already knows and can do
--[X] Borrow Scáthach and ask if she would be willing to help you instruct her master
--[X] Maybe Nurse Ortensia would like to practice using her arm against dummy familiars of yours

While she could be useful, I still don't trust Umika entirely; I don't think she'd try and fight her way out, but ignoring privacy is definitely something she'd do. Perhaps we haven't really given her chances to redeem herself, but getting that much character development in the 3~ days we have left is unlikely.

 

[SVS]

[X] Plan: Grief Trials

Click to shrink...

Damn, that was quick of you. I step away for four minutes and you've already got a vote up.

Perhaps we haven't really given her chances to redeem herself, but getting that much character development in the 3~ days we have left is unlikely.

Click to shrink...

I won't say if you're right or wrong, and I won't try to convince you to change your vote if you don't want to. But you never know. IC, we ended up falling for Kirika as our sister pretty quickly. True, I could have done a better job of pacing some necessary developments in these last couple of days rather than trying to cram "Homura is a witch" into the last day or two, but still. You never know if you don't try. Now, if you don't want to try, that's another matter entirely, and I can't say I'd fault you for not wanting to at this point.

 

[NMS]

[X] Plan: Grief Trials

 

[K4lepo]

[X] Plan: Grief Trials

 

[SVS]

[X] Plan: Grief Trials

---

Before you go off to continue exercising your ability to manipulate your Grief, there's something that stops you. You wait until Oriko and Kirika have wandered off – Oriko to return to where Lancer and Assassin are waiting with Kanna Niko so they can get back to work; and Kirika to join Oriko, making herself less than useful as she sits there and demands attention from her girlfriend like a cat – before approaching Archer.

"Did you need something?"

There's still a mixed tone in Archer's voice, halfway between anger at you and concern for you over your recent actions, but when he looks down and his eyes meet yours, there's a fleeting glimpse of happiness and relief. He's just glad you're okay.

"I was wondering if you knew much about your sister Illya's family," you say. "When Juubey and I were speaking earlier, they mentioned that, before Kazumi and myself, the last puella magi to become a witch without losing herself had been a girl named Einzbern. I was just wondering if Illya had ever mentioned anything to you about her family."

It's subtle, but Archer's eyes definitely widen when he hears the name 'Einzbern'. "Did Juubey say what that Einzbern had wished for?" he asks.

"They aren't sure if their records are accurate, but Juubey said that Einzbern's wish had been for the power to give material form to the soul."

Archer sighs to himself, and runs a hand through his hair as he says "So, I know a bit about all of this, but Rin's really the one who could explain things to you in detail. Either she or Sakura. I can try to tell you what I know, or if you'd prefer, I can ask Rin to tell you the story from the world of mages' perspective. What would you prefer?"

[ ] Hear it from Archer
[ ] Hear it from Tohsaka-san
[ ] Hear it from Matou Sakura

---

If that's all you need from Archer, then you're going to go back to experimenting with your newfound ability to manipulate Grief. You've got a few people in mind whom you'd like to extend invitations to, as well; either people you think could benefit from learning with you, or people you think could help benefit your own learning. To that end, your first invitation goes out to "Kazumi-?"

Kazumi turns towards you as you call her name. "What's up?" she asks. There's a brief note of hesitation in her voice, as if she's afraid of letting you come closer now that she knows you're a witch. "Did you need something?"

"Well, I was wondering if perhaps you'd like to join me while I'm experimenting,' you say. "We're not sure if you can also tap into your abilities as a witch, but maybe it would be helpful to find out? You can bring Scáthach along if you'd like; I'll probably want her continued assistance in my experimentation, and maybe she'd be more inclined to assist if you were involved." You don't know how true or not that last part was, since despite her reservations she was certainly willing to help you earlier. "So… Would you like to join me?"

"Um…" There's hesitation in Kazumi's voice when she says "I guess so," as if she really isn't sure whether she wants to or not. "I guess if Lancer's going to be helping, it's not that bad."

"Not bad, maybe, but definitely not safe, either." Scáthach appears at her master's side, hands placed on her hips. "I thought you would have learned your lesson after walking away with your life the first time," she says. "Now you want to drag my master into your chicanery as well?"

"I'm merely curious," you say. "Kazumi was made from the flesh of a witch; I'm curious whether that means she can innately access her witch's magic, or if that's impossible without magic that can directly manipulate either Grief or the soul, like the Inguz rune or the Third Magic."

For a few moments, Scáthach is silent, staring at you with her hands on her hips, unmoving. Finally, "You are truly an incorrigible person, master of red Archer," she says. "If your endeavours go awry and cause my master harm, I will not be so kind to you, mark my words."

"Don't worry," you say. Because you have a plan for that. "I'm also inviting Nurse Ortensia along. If anything happens, she'll be on standby to help out."

You can almost see Nurse Ortensia's ears perk up at your mention of her name. "Will I now?" she asks, sliding away from her cousin and her servant and making her way over to you. "Because I don't recall ever mentioning a willingness to help you out while you stretch the limits of reality's ability to keep up with you."

"I was going to ask," you say. Eventually. "Besides, given your penchant for anti-curse and anti-evil magic, I thought you might enjoy the chance to get in some practice of your own with your arm. I could probably make some non-sentient dummy familiars easily enough, and you could practice on those if you wanted."

"Why not just invite the entirety of both teams to join you, while you're at it?" Nurse Ortensia asks, in a way that makes it very clear that it isn't a question. "Seems like you'd get the same result, since you're just shotgunning invitations to anyone who looks at you."

You respond with "That's hardly fair to say," which does you no favours against Nurse Ortensia. "I've invited a total of three people. That's all. I wasn't planning on asking anyone other than you, Kazumi, and Scáthach. Now, if you don't want the chance to practice using your arm, that's fine." Understandable, even, for how gruesome her arm looked after the last time Nurse Ortensia tried testing its power. Your stomach is just glad that her arm can regenerate. "But even still, I'd appreciate if you stuck around just to make sure we don't hurt ourselves."

"Are you that dead-set on hurting yourselves?" Nurse Ortensia asks.

"I'm dead-set on understanding the limits of our abilities, and of how useful they might be in the fight against Sidonia."

Several seconds pass as you and Nurse Ortensia stare each other down. As you stare into her eyes, you find yourself wondering how genetics play their part in the Ortensia family lineage. Do all Ortensia women look alike, or is it just coincidence that Oriko and Nurse Ortensia are so similar in appearance. You never receive an answer to your own internal thoughts.

"Well then, I suppose I've got myself a front-row seat to watch a pair of stubborn children beating themselves over the head with their own bad ideas," Nurse Ortensia finally says. "Count me in."

It's only the intrusion of Oriko's voice into your mind, "Akemi-san, don't be so hard on Caren-san. You know she's just bad at expressing herself positively," that keeps you from snapping at Nurse Ortensia for her callousness. But that doesn't stop Scáthach. "Rest assured, master of my sister- I am grateful that you have given my sister and I the opportunity to reconnect. But if you allow harm to come to my master, I am sure my sister can be persuaded to… Look the other way."

"I'm sure she could,' Nurse Ortensia replies. "Now then, why don't you take Akemi and your master out to pasture before we die of boredom from standing around staring at each other."

As the standoff between Scáthach and Nurse Ortensia continues, you and Kazumi make your way outside. There's some obvious hesitation iN Kazumi's footsteps as she follows you, and she asks "Hey, Akemi… What if something bad happens to me while we're doing this?"

You don't have a good answer. "Unfortunately, I can't say for certain that this is entirely safe," you say. "I was able to do it, but I understand that I could have been seriously hurt in trying. But I still want to test the limits of what I can do."

As you work, you compile a list of what you can and cannot do with your Inguz rune when it comes to manipulating and giving life and shape to your Grief. You cannot make familiars for other people; that's a fact you learn almost immediately when you try to imagine the maid-doll familiars belonging to Tomoe-san's witch.

Frankly, you're glad you can't make those. The one time you had to face down Tomoe-san's witch was bad enough.

You also find that you cannot make other types of familiars outside of birds. For whatever reason, you couldn't guess. Maybe you weren't trying hard enough to imagine what they could be. Maybe you're limited to only birds. Maybe your actual witch form has bird familiars, and you just got lucky in picking birds where you haven't been lucky in picking the other familiars your witch might possess.

At least, you cannot make other familiars that are sentient. But you find no trouble in cobbling together some human-shaped dummies that, with a bit of coaxing, you manage to work over to Nurse Ortensia. "Feel free to use these to your heart's content," you say to her.

"How do you know I even have a heart in the first place?" Nurse Ortensia asks. You aren't amused, and so she says "Relax, I'm kidding. I'll take your little dummies and see what I can do with them."

Something you can do, however, is bake your Grief into other objects. A clump of earth in your hand becomes a clump of black mud; hot to the touch, you drop it with a sharp cry, letting it splatter against the ground. Can you do other things with this?

You call for Scáthach's attention, and say to her "Could you help me test something for a moment?"

Scáthach, who is busy watching over her master and instructing her, turns her head towards you. "What do you need help with?"

"I want to see if I can set up a Bounded Field made of Grief," you say. "I know the Othala rune is good for making Bounded Fields, so I thought that perhaps you could set points for me, which I could then fill with Grief to try and make a Bounded Field from."

Scáthach helps you get everything set up, but before you have a chance to put your attempt into practice, you hear a popping sound. Your first thought is that Kazumi has succeeded in creating a familiar. But when you turn your head to look at what she's doing, what you see is anything but. Instead, floating just above her hand is a sphere of nothing. Calling it a sphere might not be the right word, because as you look closer, you think that comparing it to a hole might be better; a hole in reality in the palm of Kazumi's hand.

"Is that… Is that supposed to happen?" Kazumi asks. She stares at the sphere with discomfort in her eyes. You can see her hand trembling, but she keeps the sphere tight in her grasp, as though she's afraid to let it fall where who knows what could happen upon it hitting the ground. "What should I do? How do I get rid of it?"

"You get rid of it by… I guess by not feeding it with mana," you say. "Or maybe you can try to reabsorb it into yourself. That's what I did when I tried to make my familiars disappear; I'd drag the Grief I made them with back into my Soul Gem."

"Um… Okay," Kazumi says. "How am I supposed to do that? I don't even really know what I did to make this."

[ ] Wat do?
​

 

[SVS]

I'll come out and admit it, I'm not really sure what witch abilities Homura should or shouldn't be allowed, so I'm more than willing to come back to this at a later date, suggestions in hand, and alter what Homura can and can't do with her Grief manipulation. I also have an equally hard time commending on Kazumi, since we don't actually know what Carola can do in canon so there's nothing for me to reference, outside of maybe some vague food-related things. But what I am confident in is what we're seeing from Kazumi here. She has Void as her Element, and that plays really nicely with her magic being deconstruction, so that's something she should be allowed to expand upon as she unlocks herself as a witch. I'm open to suggestions if anyone has any, and I'll probably address Caren in the next update.

Also, don't forget to vote on whether we want to hear from Archer, Rin, or Sakura when it comes to telling us about the Einzberns and the Third Magic. That's also in there.

 

[PlaguePaladin]

[X] Plan: Black Hole Sun
-[X] Hear it from Tohsaka-san
-[X] Try to throw something not important into the void and see what it does.
--[X] What happens if you try and use other forms of magic on it? Does it just eat them? Does it take on their properties? Or some other esoteric BS?
-[X] Use the Inguz rune to help Kazumi reabsorb her void hole.
--[X] See if she can control it in more precise ways. Can she make it float and control where it's going? Does it just... ignore conventional durability?
--[X] If the void gets bigger when it consumes something and she can't control it, then try and plan out a mystic code to allow Kazumi to... reabsorb grief? Sounds too useful to not use, but also very potentially dangerous.
-[X] Try and see if you can't finish that bounded field, too.

I also have an equally hard time commending on Kazumi, since we don't actually know what Carola can do

Click to shrink...

Straight-up matter deletion, though she has to eat something for this to work. Yet another case of Magical Girls just casually using True Magics...

 

[NMS]

[X] Plan: Black Hole Sun

As an aside. Aren't Witches limited in the number of Familiars they can make by how many people they've killed? I seem to remember that being a thing in Madoka, for some reason.

 

[SVS]

Straight-up matter deletion, though she has to eat something for this to work. Yet another case of Magical Girls just casually using True Magics...

Click to shrink...

What's your source for this? MagiReco? Because I don't recall the manga ever mentioning what Carola could do. Also, are we talking Cream-style matter deletion, or The Hand-style matter deletion?

Also, if you want to help me figure out what Homura should and shouldn't be allowed to do as a witch, let me know. We can discuss it here or in private; I don't have a preference. Here might be marginally better since that would mean other people could contribute, I guess, but it's on you if you even want to help me at all.

As an aside. Aren't Witches limited in the number of Familiars they can make by how many people they've killed? I seem to remember that being a thing in Madoka, for some reason.

Click to shrink...

I have never heard of this before in my life. I don't believe it's ever officially been stated one way or another, but I'd always thought it had to do with how powerful a witch was. At least, that's how I've handled it in the past. Regular witches get regular familiars, super-strong witches like Elsa Maria get an army of familiars that can defy physics, and witches like Walpurgisnacht get familiars that can fight servants on even footing. If I'd played by some "familiars = number of people eaten" rule, then Elsa Maria wouldn't have been nearly as threatening as she was.

 

[NMS]

I have never heard of this before in my life. I don't believe it's ever officially been stated one way or another, but I'd always thought it had to do with how powerful a witch was. At least, that's how I've handled it in the past. Regular witches get regular familiars, super-strong witches like Elsa Maria get an army of familiars that can defy physics, and witches like Walpurgisnacht get familiars that can fight servants on even footing. If I'd played by some "familiars = number of people eaten" rule, then Elsa Maria wouldn't have been nearly as threatening as she was.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, I don't know where I'm pulling it from either, but it's a thought that occasionally pops into my head whenever I'm reading a Madoka work.

 

[PlaguePaladin]

What's your source for this? MagiReco? Because I don't recall the manga ever mentioning what Carola could do. Also, are we talking Cream-style matter deletion, or The Hand-style matter deletion?

Also, if you want to help me figure out what Homura should and shouldn't be allowed to do as a witch, let me know. We can discuss it here or in private; I don't have a preference. Here might be marginally better since that would mean other people could contribute, I guess, but it's on you if you even want to help me at all.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, it's MagiReco; also, it's Cream-style. Will probably come around with some help on what Homura could do as a witch later, after I do some stuff tonight (or I'll just pick it up in the morning).

I have never heard of this before in my life. I don't believe it's ever officially been stated one way or another, but I'd always thought it had to do with how powerful a witch was. At least, that's how I've handled it in the past. Regular witches get regular familiars, super-strong witches like Elsa Maria get an army of familiars that can defy physics, and witches like Walpurgisnacht get familiars that can fight servants on even footing. If I'd played by some "familiars = number of people eaten" rule, then Elsa Maria wouldn't have been nearly as threatening as she was.

Click to shrink...

Never heard of the familiars = people eaten thing either, but if familiar hunting is an indication, eating people might provide some degree of a power boost to the witch, though it's unclear how much.

 

[SVS]

Never heard of the familiars = people eaten thing either, but if familiar hunting is an indication, eating people might provide some degree of a power boost to the witch, though it's unclear how much.

Click to shrink...

The way I've written our own magical girls, they don't technically need to eat, because they get all their energy from mana. However, eating allows them to conserve mana because they're using the food as fuel via normal metabolic systems, and the total mana cost of metabolic uptake+food is less than the total cost of running purely on mana. Maybe witches are the same way, but in reverse? They string their labyrinths up in areas that are heavily congested with Grief because that's what they eat, but luring people in and eating them means they're able to survive in areas that aren't as heavily saturated with Grief, because the total Grief cost of metabolic update+food is less than the total cost of running purely on Grief.

I suppose this means that it's possible for a witch to die if it's unable to roost in an area with a high enough concentration of Grief and it's unable to lure in victims, but I suppose that's also what familiars are for, since they can leave the labyrinth and go out hunting for victims to bring to the witch. Or just eat them directly and siphon the energy off to the witch, as was the case with Elsa Maria's familiars.

Yeah, it's MagiReco; also, it's Cream-style.

Click to shrink...

Please don't tell me this means that Kazumi could, if she sufficiently advanced her ability to use her witch powers enough, summon Carola, hop in Carola's mouth, and speed demon her way through anything she wanted gone like the actual Cream can.

... That said, if Kazumi is now Vanilla Ice, then who would be the rest of DIO's minions? Who would be DIO?

 

[K4lepo]

[X] Plan: Black Hole Sun

 

[NMS]

Please don't tell me this means that Kazumi could, if she sufficiently advanced her ability to use her witch powers enough, summon Carola, hop in Carola's mouth, and speed demon her way through anything she wanted gone like the actual Cream can.

... That said, if Kazumi is now Vanilla Ice, then who would be the rest of DIO's minions? Who would be DIO?

Click to shrink...

Well, since Homura can now fly and use ice, I guess that makes her Pet Shop

 

[SVS]

Well, since Homura can now fly and use ice, I guess that makes her Pet Shop

Click to shrink...

And Oriko can see the future, so that would make her Boingo. Or is Oingo the one with a Stand that predicts the future? I always get those two mixed up. It's unfortunate that Kirika can't be the other one, since she can't change her shape. But then we get into Mami, Kyouko, and Kirika, all of whom would probably be better suited to being Kakyoin, Avdol, and Polnareff respectively.

 

[SVS]

[X] Plan: Black Hole Sun

---

Scáthach helps you get everything set up, but before you have a chance to put your attempt into practice, you hear a popping sound. Your first thought is that Kazumi has succeeded in creating a familiar. But when you turn your head to look at what she's doing, what you see is anything but. Instead, floating just above her hand is a sphere of nothing. Calling it a sphere might not be the right word, because as you look closer, you think that comparing it to a hole might be better; a hole in reality in the palm of Kazumi's hand.

"Is that… Is that supposed to happen?" Kazumi asks. She stares at the sphere with discomfort in her eyes. You can see her hand trembling, but she keeps the sphere tight in her grasp, as though she's afraid to let it fall where who knows what could happen upon it hitting the ground. "What should I do? How do I get rid of it?"

"You get rid of it by… I guess by not feeding it with mana," you say. "Or maybe you can try to reabsorb it into yourself. That's what I did when I tried to make my familiars disappear; I'd drag the Grief I made them with back into my Soul Gem."

"Um… Okay," Kazumi says. "How am I supposed to do that? I don't even really know what I did to make this."

If it were just you, you might have choked, or struggled to come up with an answer. But fortunately, you have an adult with you. "Just calm down, master," Scáthach says. "Let's try to approach this in a logical manner. First, it's important that we figure out what, exactly, this thing is. Once we know that, we'll have a better idea of what we can do about getting rid of it."

Scáthach turns to you, asking "Is that acceptable?" in a tone that says she's going to ignore you if you disagree with her.

"Yeah, that's fine," you say. It isn't as though you had any better ideas, yourself. "How do you propose we test it?"

"Like this." Scáthach traces the Tiwaz rune with her finger, conjuring a spear into her left hand. "Master, hold out the sphere carefully. I don't want to nick you."

Kazumi does as her servant instructs her, and extends her arms out, holding the sphere out in front of her chest. Slowly, Scáthach presses the tip of her spear into the sphere. It sinks in with no resistance, causing a look of mild surprise to form on Scáthach's face. "It's so effortless," she muses, holding the spear in place as she takes stock of the emotions playing on Kazumi's face. "Does it hurt, master? Does it feel like anything at all?"

Kazumi shakes her head. "I don't feel anything," she replies.

Scáthach nods her head, and continues to press the spear in. Still nothing. But when she pulls the spear out- There is no spear. The spear just stops, as though everything that had gone into the sphere simply never existed. "No wonder there was no resistance," Scáthach says. "There was nothing at all to be resisted by."

"What about other forms of magic?" you ask, now deeply intrigued by what you're seeing. "If it eats solid objects, would it also eat magic as well?"

"Care to test that for yourself?" Scáthach asks, as if daring you to try. "That said, I don't think it so much ate my spear as it did make my spear no longer exist. So let's see what it can do to your magic."

You'll start out small, and try to work your continued practice into the test. It eats solid objects, so flinging an icicle from Isa would just show a similar result. But if you threw a bolt of Grief at it with Inguz, maybe that would be different enough to produce a different result? You have to try. You raise your left arm up, and concentrate, letting the burning sensation of Grief building up inside your hand take shape into a bullet. You take careful aim, pointing your outstretched finger squarely at the sphere in Kazumi's hands. You're careful not to miss. You don't want to hit her.

You fire, and your bullet passes through the sphere, but never comes out the other end. It's as if the bullet simply never existed. "Well, I'll be," Scáthach says. "This is…. Truly something, isn't it? It eats physical objects, and magic. I've never seen anything like it before in my life."

Neither have you. "What do you think would happen if a person stuck their arm into the sphere?" you ask, already fairly sure of the result.

"I imagine it would cease to exist, just like my spear and your magic," Scáthach replies. "That's kind of obvious, isn't it?"

"It is. But… Morbid curiosity compelled me to ask," you say. "This thing… Is dangerous."

Scáthach nods her head, agreeing with you. "Very," she says. "Master, can you control that thing at all? Make it move, perhaps, or change its size or shape?"

Kazumi shakes her head. "I don't know what I did to make it like this, so I'm not really sure about trying to make it bigger," she says. "As for trying to move it…" There's an audible tremor in her voice as she speaks. "It just eats anything that comes in contact with it; makes them not exist, even. What would happen if I accidentally dropped it while I was trying to make it move? What if it never stopped eating and bored a hole right through the earth?"

"I hadn't thought of it like that," Scáthach says. "That… Would be devastating if it truly did not stop consuming once dropped."

"Let's figure out how to make it go away, first," you say. "Trying to figure out how to exert greater control over what it can do should come after knowing how to create and dispel it." You look to Scáthach for confirmation, and she nods her head. "As it is now, it's incredibly dangerous, but if you're able to get better at manipulating it, I could see it being useful."

"Useful, but at what cost should it fail?" Scáthach asks.

"Well, we've seen that Sidonia can regenerate from her injuries, so just using it to lob parts of her body off isn't going to work," you say. "But if Kazumi can learn to spread it out like a shield… Just imagine it; if it really can eat anything that comes in contact with it, then a shield made using that thing would be impenetrable. It would simply eat any attack thrown at Kazumi."

"That's assuming my master can even manipulate it into becoming a shield,' Scáthach says. "She doesn't even know what she did to make this one."

"Right," you say. "That's why learning how to deactivate and reactive it has to come first. We can figure out everything else from there."

"Do you have any ideas for how it can be deactivated?" asks Scáthach. "Because from where I stand, if Kazumi doesn't know what she did to make it, then shouldn't unmaking it be equally as difficult?"

"It shouldn't be," you say. "Kazumi must have created it with either mana or Grief. That means I can use Inguz to help her shut it down safely."

"Um… You know I'm right here, yeah?" You and Scáthach both turn your heads, as Kazumi addresses the two of you. "You don't need to talk about this like I'm not."

"Sorry," you say to Kazumi. "I can help you now, if you'd like." Kazumi eagerly nods her head. "All right, then let's see what Inguz can do for us…" Let's see if this thing can even be deactivated, or if it'll just eat your attempts to do so.

Fortunately, it does not eat your attempts to do so. Fortunately, you are able to deactivate the hole in reality with the use of Inguz in several key places along the sphere's axes. It withers and dies, like the filament of a lightbulb giving one last spark before going dark. Or a star imploding and becoming a black hole, if the 'hole in reality' idea is more applicable.

With your Inguz runes still set along the axes of an imaginary sphere, you say to Kazumi "All right, now let's try that again. But this time, concentrate on what you're doing. Try to keep not just the image of what you're creating in mind, but also the image of how you're going to create it, and how it's going to function. Maybe that will make understanding, controlling, and reactivating it easier the next time around."

"Okay," Kazumi says. "I'll give it a try."

While Kazumi goes back to trying, you and Scáthach return to what you had previously been doing. "Did you still want me to set those points?" she asks. "Or should we be on standby in case Kazumi once again creates something she can't control?"

You'd like to trust in Kazumi's abilities, so the choice is obvious. "Let's keep going," you say. "I'd still like to see if it's possible for me to make a Bounded Field with my Grief."

Scáthach lets her eyes roam, past Nurse Ortensia who is busy evaporating your dummy familiars with holy lightning, past the eggheads as they discuss egghead things, and past Archer, who has been rather quiet as he sits off in the distance, watching with all the attention of a parent who is trusting their teenage daughter to not hurt herself while she's doing something incredibly stupid. It is on his gaze that Scáthach stops, and she says to you "You know, I'm not comfortable being the one your Archer servant comes down on if anything happens to you."

"Then we'd better make sure to do this right."

For added safety, you will not be stepping inside the Bounded Field Scáthach has created for you. Stepping over the line of an untested barrier that's being fuelled by your own Grief seems like it would be a colossally stupid idea. So instead, once Scáthach has set the points for you, you stand back several meters as you prepare to invoke Inguz.

Almost immediately, you feel the air around you growing hotter, and the circle is lit up by rising, acrid-smelling smoke as Grief bubbles to the surface, forming a ring of black sludge around the circumference of the barrier. The smoke rises slowly; too slowly, in fact, as though it's been sedated. Curious, you toss a pebble into the circle to see what would happen. As soon as it crosses the boundary, the pebble's flight slows to a crawl, falling at a snail's pace until it impacts the ground, bouncing a few times with an equally slow cadence, before coming to a stop in the center of the barrier where it slowly ices over. The heat from the ring of Grief eventually gets to the iced-over pebble, causing it to melt with the same slow pace.

Well then. "I can't say I was expecting to see that," Scáthach says. "Hopefully that's not an indication of what would have happened to you if you had been inside that."

"It's probably got more to do with my own magic," you say. "I used to be able to freeze time, before I switched to using runes and magecraft."

[ ] Wat do?
​

 

[SVS]

Now we come to the part where I really wish Plague would have said this stuff in public, so I wouldn't have to explain what you're seeing here. We were discussing what Homura might be able to do as a witch, since as I've said several times now, Confringentur Homulily should not have the same abilities as either Portable or Rebellion Homulilys, and Plague gave me the idea that Confringentur Homulily would have stagnation as an ability. I like it; it fits not only with timeloop-era Homura's time-stop abilities, but also ties in nicely to Confringentur Homura's use of Isa; even though stasis isn't an ability of Isa's that Homura has practiced, it's still there, and I think it fits for what a theoretical Confringentur Homulily might look like. So Homura's not-quite-Bounded-Field is full of stagnation, hence everything moving more slowly inside of it.

Caren, unfortunately, only managed to sneak in a brief mention in all of this. I can try to work in another, more lengthy appearance from her in the next update. And obviously, since Rin isn't here, we'll have to wait until she shows up against before we can get anything from her about the Third magic.

 

[PlaguePaladin]

[X] Plan: Well, This Opens Up A Big Can Of Worms
-[X] For Homura:
--[X] See if you can make a tiny familiar bird with minimal grief and send it through. If nothing happens to it, then step in yourself (not far so you can get out easy) and see if your bounded field is you-friendly.
--[X] Can you do this to anything else independent of your bounded field? Charge your Inguz-Gandr thing with 'stagnation' to slow something down? Just inject raw grief into something to get those results?
--[X] What about when you try to charge your other forms of magic with grief, such as Isa or your projections?
-[X] For Kazumi:
--[X] The void-ball stayed above her hand, right? So if she puts two hands on it, moves her bottom hand down, and it stays next to the still hand, then it stands to reason that she could fushigi-ball her void hole.
--[X] If you can get her to better control it, then get her to move onto manipulating the hole itself, trying to understand how to make it, unmake it, making multiple of them, and modifying the form it has if possible.

I'm having a hard time getting creative with Kazumi's void hole, so I'm trying to understand what limits it has.

Now we come to the part where I really wish Plague would have said this stuff in public, so I wouldn't have to explain what you're seeing here.

Click to shrink...

I'M SORRY I DON'T DISPLAY MY IDEAS WELL IN FRONT OF OTHER PEOPLE

 

[SVS]

then it stands to reason that she could fushigi-ball her void hole.

Click to shrink...

In English, please? Is this some Dragonball shit I'm missing? Also, we might want to try coming up with a better name for this thing than "Void Hole". I'm sure Kirika will be quick to come up with something inappropriate if we leave it at that. Something that, if Kazumi is able to turn it into an actual, usable, safe technique, she could call it and not give her teammates the opportunity to make an innuendo out of. I'm currently seeing "Void Imagination" but I'm open to ideas if you think you have something better.

But also, serious question- What do you think would happen if Kazumi were to accidentally drop it?

I'M SORRY I DON'T DISPLAY MY IDEAS WELL IN FRONT OF OTHER PEOPLE

Click to shrink...

You best start learning, boy~o. When I was your age I'd have to get up in front of the class and give presentations. Don't think I'll let you off easy just because we're virtual.

 

[PlaguePaladin]

In English, please? Is this some Dragonball shit I'm missing?

Click to shrink...

It's kinda like a spherical toy you do tricks with, though I'm bad at describing stuff.

Also, we might want to try coming up with a better name for this thing than "Void Hole". I'm sure Kirika will be quick to come up with something inappropriate if we leave it at that. Something that, if Kazumi is able to turn it into an actual, usable, safe technique, she could call it and not give her teammates the opportunity to make an innuendo out of. I'm currently seeing "Void Imagination" but I'm open to ideas if you think you have something better.

But also, serious question- What do you think would happen if Kazumi were to accidentally drop it?

Click to shrink...

I'll just settle for 'void ball'. Still descriptive, less room for innuendos unless you're actively trying to find one. As for if she drops it... if it still falls under normal gravitational rules (and given that it didn't just shlorp past us the moment we spawned it due to earth moving at thousands of miles per second throughout the galaxy it probably does), then the moment she drops it the core of the earth would basically have golf-ball diameter chunks getting torn out of it constantly. It would take decades for it to actually become a problem, though. My personal working theory (until I realized that you didn't know any of this until I told you) is that the void ball is actually Carola's black hole stomach physically manifested outside of her body. This is why I thought Kazumi had a hard time controlling it, because it used to just be a fixed thing. But again, you didn't know about her stomach before, so Idunno.

 

[SVS]

It's kinda like a spherical toy you do tricks with, though I'm bad at describing stuff.

Click to shrink...

Never heard of it, but I know you (or NMS, I actually don't remember anymore) have made Dragonball references in the past that I didn't understand. The only fushigis I'm aware of are the anime Fushigi Yuugi, and Fushigidane, Fushigisou, and Fushigibana, which are the Japanese names of Bulbasaur, Ivysaur, and Venusaur; aka, the best Gen 1 starter family.

then the moment she drops it the core of the earth would basically have golf-ball diameter chunks getting torn out of it constantly. It would take decades for it to actually become a problem, though

Click to shrink...

Try grapefruit-size, more like. Sorry if I failed to communicate how big this is. It's taking up pretty much the entirety of Kazumi's hand. That probably doesn't impact your calculations too much, but even still, decades sounds like it would still be a problem, especially if Kazumi isn't able to stop it once it leaves her hand.

My personal working theory (until I realized that you didn't know any of this until I told you) is that the void ball is actually Carola's black hole stomach physically manifested outside of her body. This is why I thought Kazumi had a hard time controlling it, because it used to just be a fixed thing. But again, you didn't know about her stomach before, so Idunno.

Click to shrink...

True, I didn't know about her stomach. But I did know about Kazumi's magic being deconstruction, and I did know about her Element being Void, and those were my original sources for the idea. It just happened coincidentally that I once again stumbled into being right. Also, it's Carola's stomach? So that means Kazumi is Gluttony. I wonder if that means there's actually a way out of Carola's stomach once you're inside. And it gives me terrifying inspiration for what Kazumi could do if she took her witch powers to the next level.

And while we're on the subject of FMA, does anyone know what a Philosopher's Stone is made from in the Nasuverse? It can't be made of people, can it?

 

[NMS]

[X] Plan: Well, This Opens Up A Big Can Of Worms. V2
-[X] For Homura:
--[X] See if you can make a tiny familiar bird with minimal grief and send it through.
--[X] Can you do this to anything else independent of your bounded field? Charge your Inguz-Gandr thing with 'stagnation' to slow something down? Just inject raw grief into something to get those results?
--[X] What about when you try to charge your other forms of magic with grief, such as Isa or your projections?
-[X] For Kazumi:
--[X] The void-ball stayed above her hand, right? So if she puts two hands on it, moves her bottom hand down, and it stays next to the still hand, then it stands to reason that she could fushigi-ball her void hole.
--[X] If you can get her to better control it, then get her to move onto manipulating the hole itself, trying to understand how to make it, unmake it, making multiple of them, and modifying the form it has if possible.

Mostly the same, but I took out the line about Homura stepping into the grief field.

 

[PlaguePaladin]

[X] NMS

Fair enough.

True, I didn't know about her stomach. But I did know about Kazumi's magic being deconstruction, and I did know about her Element being Void, and those were my original sources for the idea. It just happened coincidentally that I once again stumbled into being right. Also, it's Carola's stomach? So that means Kazumi is Gluttony. I wonder if that means there's actually a way out of Carola's stomach once you're inside. And it gives me terrifying inspiration for what Kazumi could do if she took her witch powers to the next level.

Click to shrink...

Maybe? The line I based this on is phrased like this:

It is a chef born of the desire to eat itself, a Doppel of gluttony that devours all and returns it to nothingness.

Click to shrink...

and her doppel animation makes it kinda hard to tell what Carola actually does, mostly because it's hard to tell if they didn't want to bother trying to figure out how to animate Carola actually pulling enemies into her or if she's just slapping people with her tongue.

And while we're on the subject of FMA, does anyone know what a Philosopher's Stone is made from in the Nasuverse? It can't be made of people, can it?

Click to shrink...

The answer is usually 'if it isn't answered in Fate, then mythology has the answer, and if it doesn't, make shit up'. In this case, mythology says refining 'prima materia' (in our case raw ether clumps and lots of mana) until it turns red. Look here for more information if need be.

Edit: @SVS just to make sure you see this, I looked it up and I actually got pretty close. The philosopher's stone in Fate is made out of Ether from the Age of Gods that's been incredibly compressed and refined, and it specifically has to be from the Age of Gods, though it can be falsely replicated (as done whenever EMIYA replicates the SoP).