Burden of the Emerald Empire (A Legend of the Five Rings Tale)

3. The problem here is that culturally, no one really thinks of merchants as being valuable. Its not really an enlightened view point, but the general argument against them is 'all they do is move stuff, they don't make anything of value like the peasants, the artisans, or especially like the Samurai' So if all they do is move stuff, why should they get special treatment?
I think it's also because Rokugan often enough is in survival mode. You need farmers, craftsmen and warriors to survive. You do not need merchants for that. They make things easier, but aren't necessary as others are.

There is simply not enough level of luxury for merchants to be important for majority of samurai. Well, maybe among Crane... but Cranes are culturally one of the farthest clans from accepting merchant importance.
 
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3. The problem here is that culturally, no one really thinks of merchants as being valuable. Its not really an enlightened view point, but the general argument against them is 'all they do is move stuff, they don't make anything of value like the peasants, the artisans, or especially like the Samurai' So if all they do is move stuff, why should they get special treatment?
So I guess Quartermaster's are not really valued all that much?

Their Supply lines must be laughably easy to cut if they aren't considered to be doing valuable service
 
I think it's also because Rokugan often enough is in survival mode. You need farmers, craftsmen and warriors to survive. You do not need merchants for that. They make things easier, but aren't necessary as others are.

There is simply not enough level of luxury for merchants to be important for majority of samurai. Well, maybe among Crane... but Cranes are culturally one of the farthest clans from accepting merchant importance.
Its a bit of a Chicken and Egg situation. I suspect if Rokugan could go a century without nearly killing itself or being killed that institutional reform would eventually trickle out. But if it could do that, it wouldn't need institutional reform

So I guess Quartermaster's are not really valued all that much?

Their Supply lines must be laughably easy to cut if they aren't considered to be doing valuable service
Much like the prohibition against sneaking only really applies if you're not actively at war with people. The disdain for quartermasters is rather less pronounced than their attitude towards merchants indicates it should be. To be clear no one actually wants to be a quartermaster, but the Lion and Crab beat sticks (which make efficient uses of them) means everyone knows you need 'em.

So yes blatant hypocrisy.
 
So I guess Quartermaster's are not really valued all that much?

Their Supply lines must be laughably easy to cut if they aren't considered to be doing valuable service
You are mixing Proud Proper Samurai Job with filthy Merchants! What next, comparing Proud Samurai Art to Eta entertainers? :p
 
You are mixing Proud Proper Samurai Job with filthy Merchants! What next, comparing Proud Samurai Art to Eta entertainers?
I hope that Samurai Pride helps keep their Bellies full on air and ensures a steady supply of Sandals for their feet.
(was going to say boots but I don't think Rokugan uses them)
 
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I hope that Samurai Pride helps keep their Bellies full on air and ensures a steady supply of Sandals for their feet.
(was going to say boots but I don't Rokugan uses them)
Unicorn do, but Unicorn are weird.

On that note time for a tally.
Edit: Looks like talking to Shem-Zhe has a small lead, but there's no consensus on what you should do big picture. Can I have a few more votes?
Adhoc vote count started by gman391 on Sep 15, 2017 at 6:29 PM, finished with 52 posts and 6 votes.

  • [x] Go talk to one of your advisors
    -[x] Horiuchi Shem-Zhe
    [X] Go see if your daughter is awake, she probably is the little hellion
    [X] The spiritual is as important as the physical, if your monks and priests are arguing with themselves, how can they minister to your people? No time to focus on taking care of that side of things. (TN 20, 49% chance.) (+10 to Dragon, Phoenix. -5 Unicorn, Lion, Scorpion, Mantis)
    [X] While the idea of moving off the rice standard is complete insanity. The notion of these 'charters' has some merit. It's really just taxing people for providing things for merchants. You think you can sell it, although...yeah, you're going to take a hit on this (TN 30, 16% Chance. +10 to Mantis, +5 to Unicorn. -5 to Lion, Crane, Crab)
    -[x] Horiuchi Shem-Zhe
 
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Important note here. Rokugan culture is skewed compared to our understanding because Rokugan *reality* is skewed compared to our understanding. Rokugani of the samurai caste are descended from gods, and there are no limits on the heights of ability that they can reach. Rokugan breeds god-killers, which is good, because it gets attacked by divinity-level threats on a not infrequent basis. For most cultures, starvation must be avoided at all costs. It's an existential threat. For Rokugan, they have that (to a lesser extent because Thank You, Blessed Inari), but they also must keep their walking god-killers both reasonably happy and regularly fighting because that's how you get the kind of heroes that you need to do things like hunt down and deal with (preferably kill) Fu Leng/The Moon/The Nothing/The Shadow Dragon/The Dark Oracles/Kali/The Dark Naga/Fudo/P'an Ku on a Bad Day/etc. Hand-crafted gear is a thing because they need hypercompetent craftsmen to make the absurdly good weapons and armor for their hypercompetent warriors to wear.

So, weird as it may seem, the over-aggressive cut-you-down-where-you-stand mentality is actually pretty important to long-term Rokugani survival (and the rest of the world, too, given that Rokugan seems to be the thing that all of the world's existential threats get drawn to). Having commerce mostly work would be great, but keeping the murderblenders buying in is more important, and is going to keep being more important in ways that it just didn't in our world. We have to basically sneak any reforms through in ways that won't let the merchants get too much of an edge... because if the merchants get too much of an edge over the samurai caste... yeah. Things get *ugly*.

Why does life suck for the merchants? Because the despite of samurai is safer than their envy. We basically need to find ways to make it suck *less* without making that envy grow too much. I do like the idea of the split monetary standard, though. Throw in a few laws to make sure that koku is a privileged monetary standard in some ways, so that when it turns into the monetary standard of samurai and farmers, there's the feeling that it's because samurai and farmers are the important and privileged ones, and we can make sure that the samurai continue to have people accept (and value) the coin they have available to spend. Either that or we somehow build mega-granaries so that we can stabilize the price of rice from year to year.

Still torn on which way to go. That point about "early in the reign" is an interesting one, though. Also, on re-read... the downside to ignoring the monks is that we're likely to start seeing a Brotherhood Civil War in a bit. In the balance of things? We can *afford* one of those. Monks killing monks don't produce but so much collateral damage. We need the money to do the War Machine actions, and we need the War Machine actions because the Glass Golems are coming.

...and beyond the limit on years, there's the fact that the brotherhood action pisses off Unicorn and Lion, and the Merchant action pisses off Lion and Crab. Trying to drop 10 points of Lion favor in the next two years on top of everything else... not necessarily the best idea. We can pick up the pieces on the Brotherhood once the brunt of the war is past... and if they've beaten each other down enough at that point, and we're coming off a successful war, we may have extra influence there.

[x] While the idea of moving off the rice standard is complete insanity. The notion of these 'charters' has some merit. It's really just taxing people for providing things for merchants. You think you can sell it, although...yeah, you're going to take a hit on this (TN 30, 16% Chance. +10 to Mantis, +5 to Unicorn. -5 to Lion, Crane, Crab)

[x] Go talk to one of your advisors
-[x] Horiuchi Shem-Zhe

Thanks to @whydoyoubother for your compelling arguments.
 
I hope that Samurai Pride helps keep their Bellies full on air and ensures a steady supply of Sandals for their feet.
(was going to say boots but I don't think Rokugan uses them)
Food distribution is Samurai thing, not merchant thing - at least for Samurai. And it does help keeping their bellies full, Koku is grain standard for reason. Simple clothing and weapons are Quartermaster thing, not Merchant thing too.

Merchants come mostly when things come to luxury (even if it's not luxury by our standards). Well, except for Crab because they have both skewed standards of "everyday needs" (JAAAAAADE) - for a good reason and because their basic economy suck for several reasons.
 
Also you might want to consider in ancient empires, whether greece, rome, or china, the Trader is distrusted because they are always:
-Slightly foreign and strange.
-Cross between jurisdictions, and thus evade laws.
-Make profit off the work of others yet without the ability to defend their own profit
-Being a mobile caste, more unscrupulous merchants can ALWAYS fuck over local customers for greater profit elsewhere

The value of trade is not evident, selfsufficiency is held up as a virtue and Traders are just as eager to gain power as anyone.
 
Okay so I got only one vote since my last request for votes. I'd really like to update, but I need more of a majority than 3 people.
 
I change my vote to this, because you know what?

Let's do this and be legends.
[X] While the idea of moving off the rice standard is complete insanity. The notion of these 'charters' has some merit. It's really just taxing people for providing things for merchants. You think you can sell it, although...yeah, you're going to take a hit on this (TN 30, 16% Chance. +10 to Mantis, +5 to Unicorn. -5 to Lion, Crane, Crab)
[X] Go talk to one of your advisors
-[X] Horiuchi Shem-Zhe
 
After some thinking untaxed trade for this situation is just syphoning money from survival goods economy to luxury goods econonomy and merchant coffers. Not very helpful really. So only other alternative...

[X] The spiritual is as important as the physical, if your monks and priests are arguing with themselves, how can they minister to your people? No time to focus on taking care of that side of things. (TN 20, 49% chance.) (+10 to Dragon, Phoenix. -5 Unicorn, Lion, Scorpion, Mantis)

Unless cities would be removed from suggestion, then I'm all for it. Abolition of transport tax is fine, even good, but removal of city taxation on merchants smells trouble.
 
*sigh* The economy action is needed, but that 16%.... Atleast preventing a schism between our religious guys has a decent chance of success. And we don't want them to start fighting eachother either.

[X] The spiritual is as important as the physical, if your monks and priests are arguing with themselves, how can they minister to your people? No time to focus on taking care of that side of things. (TN 20, 49% chance.) (+10 to Dragon, Phoenix. -5 Unicorn, Lion, Scorpion, Mantis)
 
Alright, with five votes, looks like we're doing the Grand Conclave.

Let's see how it goes.
TN 20 vs 7k2+5
8,8,9, 19, 9,9,6
19+9=28 vs 20= Pass

Sweet fuck that would have made the economy roll too.
Also new vote

Use the free raise to do even better, or keep it for a rainy day?
[] Use the Raise
[] Keep it for a Rainy Day
gman391 threw 8 10-faced dice. Reason: Grand Conclave Total: 68
8 8 8 8 9 9 10 10 9 9 9 9 9 9 6 6
 
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[X] Use the Raise

Getting a Super success could help wash away the stink of bare failures and bare successes.
 
Barring you guys collectively voting to go visit Heaven or something, probably next year.
Had meant that rhetorically, in the sense of talking to may fellow voters and suggesting "we're not all that big on picking Void actions."

In particular, we're not in a particularly good place to reform the religious side of things, and there's no real *need* to reform the religious side of things. By and large, I'm thinking we can mostly manage it with a sort of benign neglect, while we plug away on things like acquiring money, building infrastructure, reforming the armies, and keeping the cans under control. We brought this one on ourselves by moving Kisada... but there's only one Kisada in the empire.

Thus, better to spend the raise now, and grab the benefit that comes with it, then keep it in reserve for a separate action that may never come... especially since Being Completely Awesome is one of those "no, really, I am a Toturi" credibility-building things.
 
[X] Use the Raise

We need some good successes to get out of zero-sum game that will slowly grind us down to nothing.
 
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