- Location
- Leeds
Gman if we said to Hiroko "this is too extreme, Rokugan isn't ready. Find a mid ground" what would she reply with.
Burden of the Emerald Empire (A Legend of the Five Rings Tale)
- Thread starter gman391
- Start date
- Fantasy
"Free trade is kind of a either or position Mikado. Uh...I guess uh...one city into a free trade port? Use Zayko Toshi, no one cares what happens there, it can be proof of concept."
And then she'd pout and go drinking with Akane.
- Location
- Leeds
Tell that to China.
Hiroko: "The hell is a China?"
- Location
- Leeds
Are you doubting the words of the emperor?
- Location
- Leeds
Then it's agreed we'll implement special economic zones as the Chinese did.
Hiroko still doesn't know what that means. (Rokugani Economic theory is...substandard. I mean they are still on the Rice standard for Adam Smith's sake)
- Location
- Leeds
What are these 'Paved's you are talking about?
- Location
- Quezon City, Philippines
A gaijin thing I heard from an elderly Moto after he arrived in Rokugan with the Khan. Worked stone placed on roads to ease travel and reduce maintenance.
OoC, innovation and inspiration should ideally come from either the Unicorn, the Mantis, or the Tortoise.
Economics in Rokugan 101
On the Rokugani economy
So let's get this squared away. The RPG books and other setting books, don't really have an economy that makes a lot of sense. To be fair that's at least partially intentional, Samurai shouldn't care about money. However given that this is an Empire game and the economy is almost by definition a major part of that. Given the vote, it seems worthwhile to explain how I have the Rokugani economy working.
1. Koku, Koku, Koku everywhere but not a bite to eat.
Koku is your basic coin of the realm. There are smaller denominations (the Bu and Zeni specifically) but for the most part at the level of finance that you operate, it's all in Koku. Koku is defined as being a unit of money capable of purchasing a year's worth of food. In theory so long as you have a koku you can redeem it for a year's worth of rice at any time.
However, due to the highly variable weather, and by extension crop yields, the worth of a koku is basically a crapshoot. Rapid inflation in good years, and deflation in bad ones means that market volatility is really high. Which in turn makes trade, and indeed most business ventures at least some what risky.
In spite of the problems of the Koku. To the Rokugani it's the only system that most could conceive of. Gold, silk, silver, jade, all of these things are nice...but well, the only thing everyone; samurai or peasant needs to survive, is food. This universal value of food makes it hard to see other financial standards in play.
2. Coinage. After being tied to a rice standard. Rokugani coinage is actually significantly decentralized with all the Great Clans functionally having their own coins. Internally this makes sense. The amount of rice one Clan can make is very different from another clan. (Notably this is why Crane koku tend to be the most common. They have enough rice to mint a lot) What that means in terms of the Empire as a whole is that currency speculation is pretty rampant, and the Imperial Koku has ended up being the sort of dejure inter clan currency, (largely because by Imperial decree, any Clan koku is always equal to an Imperial koku no matter if taxes didn't come in or not)
3. Resource extraction.
Rokugan is a really weird place economically speaking. Even Japan and China which it seems ostensibly based on, didn't quite have the level of self sufficiency that Rokugan seems to have managed as a matter of course. Now from a Doylist level, this is probably because no one over at AEG or FFG really cared that much about Medieval trading networks. But from a Watsonian view, this would suggest that Rokugan has by dint of divine providence or something else, gained a sort of cornucopia of resources. In theory virtually all the raw material you would need to make everything that Rokugan values comes from within Rokugan. In practice, the Mantis and Unicorn have steadily chipped away at this with exotic spices, ivory, and certain gems being imported from elsewhere. But these are luxury items, not necessities which of course gives more traditional clans strength when saying they don't need any foreigners.
Of course that hardly means the resource distribution is equal. The best resources are largely distributed in the Crane lands, which helps explain their economic dominance despite a large disinterest in mercantile matters.
4. Manufacturing
Rokugani manufacturing is for now largely at simple cottage level craftsmanship, certain industries like sake brewing require more people, but mass production or even the idea of it doesn't exist. In terms of productivity, the Crab arguably have the most, but it's also almost entirely directed towards war materials and predicated on regular shipments from other Clans.
5: Trade
Rokugani trade is done primarily along the River of Gold in the South, and the Drowned Merchant River in the North. This water based trade by definition has to go through Crane lands but also through Scorpion, Lion, and even Unicorn. Trade is singularly ill liked by most Samurai due to the fact that merchants are essentially the lowest social class that still counts as being part of the social class structure. However, merchants, particularly good ones can often end up living in luxury that most Samurai can feel envious for. In turn this leads to a lot of Samurai jacking merchants stuff via 'fees' or just blatant 'I am a Samurai give me things or I stab you' Merchants because of this tend to avoid long trade missions (where they will have to pay multiple clans to move their stuff) to short ones where the loss isn't so great. But since the more middle men you add the less money there is for everyone, its a vicious cycle.
6: Taxes
Taxes in Rokugan are traditionally paid in rice, and consume about 60% percent of the rice production a typical farmer can expect to have. Taxes can be paid in other things such as finished goods worth a certain amount of rice, or koku, but the price stays about the same. However that 60% cut mostly doesn't go to the Imperials, only about 5-10% of it actually stays in the Imperial vaults. The rest is promptly sent back out so that everyone can get paid their yearly allotments. Yes, the Emperor technically pays every single samurai out of his tax revenue. In practice most of the tax revenue stays at the Clan Capital and is used there and never sees the inside of the Imperial Vaults.
7. Miscellany
For most of recent history, tax collection was spotty and irregular due to semi-constant war. It's really only been in the last two years that tax collectors have been a regular thing. However, the war did significantly lower the tax base (without actually removing that many coins of circulation) and it will be a while before things return to the pre 12th century levels of wealth. Most Great Clans don't actually acknowledge this and continue to expect the same level of revenue, which in turn is also choking economic growth.
(This is why Hiroko's proposal is so radical, removing all the Clan fees and taxes in a general area while maintaining the Imperial taxation should in theory fill the vaults incredibly quickly...but no one likes to have money taken from them)
So let's get this squared away. The RPG books and other setting books, don't really have an economy that makes a lot of sense. To be fair that's at least partially intentional, Samurai shouldn't care about money. However given that this is an Empire game and the economy is almost by definition a major part of that. Given the vote, it seems worthwhile to explain how I have the Rokugani economy working.
1. Koku, Koku, Koku everywhere but not a bite to eat.
Koku is your basic coin of the realm. There are smaller denominations (the Bu and Zeni specifically) but for the most part at the level of finance that you operate, it's all in Koku. Koku is defined as being a unit of money capable of purchasing a year's worth of food. In theory so long as you have a koku you can redeem it for a year's worth of rice at any time.
However, due to the highly variable weather, and by extension crop yields, the worth of a koku is basically a crapshoot. Rapid inflation in good years, and deflation in bad ones means that market volatility is really high. Which in turn makes trade, and indeed most business ventures at least some what risky.
In spite of the problems of the Koku. To the Rokugani it's the only system that most could conceive of. Gold, silk, silver, jade, all of these things are nice...but well, the only thing everyone; samurai or peasant needs to survive, is food. This universal value of food makes it hard to see other financial standards in play.
2. Coinage. After being tied to a rice standard. Rokugani coinage is actually significantly decentralized with all the Great Clans functionally having their own coins. Internally this makes sense. The amount of rice one Clan can make is very different from another clan. (Notably this is why Crane koku tend to be the most common. They have enough rice to mint a lot) What that means in terms of the Empire as a whole is that currency speculation is pretty rampant, and the Imperial Koku has ended up being the sort of dejure inter clan currency, (largely because by Imperial decree, any Clan koku is always equal to an Imperial koku no matter if taxes didn't come in or not)
3. Resource extraction.
Rokugan is a really weird place economically speaking. Even Japan and China which it seems ostensibly based on, didn't quite have the level of self sufficiency that Rokugan seems to have managed as a matter of course. Now from a Doylist level, this is probably because no one over at AEG or FFG really cared that much about Medieval trading networks. But from a Watsonian view, this would suggest that Rokugan has by dint of divine providence or something else, gained a sort of cornucopia of resources. In theory virtually all the raw material you would need to make everything that Rokugan values comes from within Rokugan. In practice, the Mantis and Unicorn have steadily chipped away at this with exotic spices, ivory, and certain gems being imported from elsewhere. But these are luxury items, not necessities which of course gives more traditional clans strength when saying they don't need any foreigners.
Of course that hardly means the resource distribution is equal. The best resources are largely distributed in the Crane lands, which helps explain their economic dominance despite a large disinterest in mercantile matters.
4. Manufacturing
Rokugani manufacturing is for now largely at simple cottage level craftsmanship, certain industries like sake brewing require more people, but mass production or even the idea of it doesn't exist. In terms of productivity, the Crab arguably have the most, but it's also almost entirely directed towards war materials and predicated on regular shipments from other Clans.
5: Trade
Rokugani trade is done primarily along the River of Gold in the South, and the Drowned Merchant River in the North. This water based trade by definition has to go through Crane lands but also through Scorpion, Lion, and even Unicorn. Trade is singularly ill liked by most Samurai due to the fact that merchants are essentially the lowest social class that still counts as being part of the social class structure. However, merchants, particularly good ones can often end up living in luxury that most Samurai can feel envious for. In turn this leads to a lot of Samurai jacking merchants stuff via 'fees' or just blatant 'I am a Samurai give me things or I stab you' Merchants because of this tend to avoid long trade missions (where they will have to pay multiple clans to move their stuff) to short ones where the loss isn't so great. But since the more middle men you add the less money there is for everyone, its a vicious cycle.
6: Taxes
Taxes in Rokugan are traditionally paid in rice, and consume about 60% percent of the rice production a typical farmer can expect to have. Taxes can be paid in other things such as finished goods worth a certain amount of rice, or koku, but the price stays about the same. However that 60% cut mostly doesn't go to the Imperials, only about 5-10% of it actually stays in the Imperial vaults. The rest is promptly sent back out so that everyone can get paid their yearly allotments. Yes, the Emperor technically pays every single samurai out of his tax revenue. In practice most of the tax revenue stays at the Clan Capital and is used there and never sees the inside of the Imperial Vaults.
7. Miscellany
For most of recent history, tax collection was spotty and irregular due to semi-constant war. It's really only been in the last two years that tax collectors have been a regular thing. However, the war did significantly lower the tax base (without actually removing that many coins of circulation) and it will be a while before things return to the pre 12th century levels of wealth. Most Great Clans don't actually acknowledge this and continue to expect the same level of revenue, which in turn is also choking economic growth.
(This is why Hiroko's proposal is so radical, removing all the Clan fees and taxes in a general area while maintaining the Imperial taxation should in theory fill the vaults incredibly quickly...but no one likes to have money taken from them)
- Location
- Leeds
That 60% tax rate. Wow.
- Location
- Leeds
I don't know what a typical feudal Japanese farmer grew, but I'm rather impressed that it's apparently a bit more than twice they needed to feed themselves and their dependants.
- Location
- Quezon City, Philippines
I'm pretty sure canon taxation doesn't go by percentages. They go by quota. Can't remember where it was stated, though Emerald Empire is most likely.
Also, my personal reason why Rokugan has abundant resources is because they pray so hard that the Kami provide things discretely.
Also, my personal reason why Rokugan has abundant resources is because they pray so hard that the Kami provide things discretely.
Inari-no-kami is a very nice fox goddess of rice. But more accurately, is that farmers lie like hell to make sure they have enough food, and sensible samurai don't ask too many questions
Quotas can be worked out as percentages or at least I find it a more useful measure to work with than a bunch of different quotas.
The gods casually intervening in Rokugan does mean that their economic practices are shaped a little differently yes. (Ex, praying to the god of wealth does work in some cases)
The larger problem is that it doesn't really have any good tools to fix itself with than anything else.
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I guess some of the stuff that needs to happen first is:
Reform the currency to something less silly.
Prevent the levying of random tolls or if that's not possible create routes where only a set toll is levied.
Encourage manufacturing investment.
Ensure our taxes actually get to us.
Reform the currency to something less silly.
Prevent the levying of random tolls or if that's not possible create routes where only a set toll is levied.
Encourage manufacturing investment.
Ensure our taxes actually get to us.
A lot of these are tall orders. I don't know actually how you'd do that third one.
al103
Grumpy Russian Bear (SV edition)
- Location
- Russia, Krasnoyarsk
That would lead to uprising without shitton of other reforms. Current system works on principle "every samurai MUST be fed". They may be poor, they may be rich but they all (and their families) have food on the table as they all have fixed koku income. The moment system changes without enough safeguard any poor harvest year would lead to empire-wide riot that would be nearly impossible to quell.
Best solution despite all it's problems is Emperor-backed second currency that don't have fixed exchange rate with rice. With peasant tax and samurai subsidies still being in koku, while rest of exchange being in second currency.
Not enough absolutism. Also it's shitty situation when regulating tolls is big no-no as it's "stinky trade"... and protecting "subhumans barely better than eta" (view of many samurai) could be bad PR hit. We can't afford it - yet.
We wouldn't get more taxes. It would just put problem in the open and split tax in local and imperial ones. And that would look like ceding authority to clans - we can't afford that (yet).
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@al103
No it's not impossible. I'm just not sure how you would do that. At least if I'm reading @No7sHere right in his desire to get Rokugan into a full blow market revolution/mass production society. There's some intermediate steps that Rokugan culturally just doesn't have right now. (like a strong middle class nominally protected by the rule of law) Getting more artisans and other workers to make stuff is doable, but jumping from what is essentially cottage industry to the industrial revolution is a bit more problematic at least to my mind.
No it's not impossible. I'm just not sure how you would do that. At least if I'm reading @No7sHere right in his desire to get Rokugan into a full blow market revolution/mass production society. There's some intermediate steps that Rokugan culturally just doesn't have right now. (like a strong middle class nominally protected by the rule of law) Getting more artisans and other workers to make stuff is doable, but jumping from what is essentially cottage industry to the industrial revolution is a bit more problematic at least to my mind.
- Location
- Dreiländereck
I am by no means an economist but that sounds incredibly abusable/misusable (is that a word in english?).
I think several measures we could get the clans behind us with, are infrastructure projects that ease the burden and risk of travel for merchants, like canals, improved roads and maybe patrols.
We have partially done some of this, with our reconstruction efforts and legal reforms.
Another thing we could try is to establish is an avenue for traders to complain and a way to get recompensated, when a samurai goes "gimme that or I cut you down". Although I expect steep resistance at leastt, the same way if we try to do something against tolls and fees. Because that cuts directly into the purse of the clans and the samurai caste in a direct and tangible way.
Manufacturing doesn't seem to be an idea even yet, the commercial, social and technological stepping stones simply aren't there. Unless we ask the Crab apparently but only if we try to strengthen our military.
But that are all great reforms which would end with us stepping on a lot of toes, because it runs head first into social mores and the way Rokugan is run since forever. Not counting the external and internal threats against the empire and us specifically.
I would suggest the establishment of free trade ports in friendly cities (the Mantis or Unicorn may know one or two), or charters for merchants to invest in common enterprises, the formation of trade guilds to faciliate mutual protection, training, insurance and standards . Open up trade with the world outside Rokugan.
al103
Grumpy Russian Bear (SV edition)
- Location
- Russia, Krasnoyarsk
As I understand it - it means that you can exchange imperial koku of gold for koku of rice in any clan (as technically it's imperial tax that is just held in said clan). Not other way around. And koku of any clan can be exchanged for exactly koku of rice, but just in that clan.
Difference in clan koku is about access to other products in said clan lands (and different prices for same product) - and clan koku are used near-explicitely in the lands of said clan.
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1. Yes, that one for one thing is abusable/misusable. (Abusable is the proper term). But as al103 mentioned this is more you can always redeem an imperial Koku for rice. (You can still get up to shenanigans with it, but less than you'd think.)
2. The early infrastructure is paying off, but it takes time for people to get used to the whole lack of war thing.
3. The problem here is that culturally, no one really thinks of merchants as being valuable. Its not really an enlightened view point, but the general argument against them is 'all they do is move stuff, they don't make anything of value like the peasants, the artisans, or especially like the Samurai' So if all they do is move stuff, why should they get special treatment?
4. I think it's important to delineate manufacturing as a term. Rokugani absolutely get the idea of making stuff. But everything is made by one person, or at most that person and their few assistants. The idea of making stuff communally outside of things like buildings or sake works where a lot of low skilled but strong labour is needed, doesn't really exist.
So to illustrate
If you told a Rokugani to make you say a suit of armor. The armor smith would work on it until it was done, and it'd be a really good set of armour, but it'd be expensive and time consuming to make. Where as if you told us to make a suit of armor, we'd have a dozen guys each working on just one piece of the armour and then fitting it all together, quicker and perhaps not quite as good, but cheaper because they all are cheaper to pay collectively than the armour smith would be.
It is absolutely possible to get more artisans working and by extension increase production. (Indeed the Crab have that basically done to an artform) but making the leap from single creator to multi creator is a bit more giant than they're able to make at this current point.
5. These are all potential things eventually. I'm trying to avoid the one man industrial revolution trope, but Hisao is expected to be brilliant.