Rajvik_wolfboy
Wolf amongst the stars.
- Location
- Florida
Builder's choice I think. Haven't started on it yet because I want to use it to build the pieces for a 1/350 scale
Belated Battleships (KanColle) [REHOST]
- Thread starter theJMPer
- Start date
- Location
- Canada
ijnfleetadmiral
CinC Rengo Kanmusutai
- Location
- Admiral's Bridge, HIJMS Kongo
They also found the other three DDs lost at the Battle of Ormoc Bay: Naganami, Hamanami, & Wakatsuki.
Yes, those would all be within range of their equipment. The ships of Samar...not so much.
SeaSirocco
Formerly 'Sanae Aran' / Aspiring Artist
- Location
- The Seaside
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Is that New York after Crossroads?
it must be.. it is definitely a New York class and there were only 2 of them so seeing as the second is a museum ship.... its a nice find though.. i have spent years looking for shots of this quality of ANY of the target vessels..
you can see just what sort of damage was actually inflicted..
Edit.. hang on.. Is my memory playing tricks on me or wasn't the USS New York actually sunk as a gunnery target about 6 months AFTER crossroads?
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Dirtnap
Kanmusu Affecionado
New York was part of a sinkex after the bikini tests.
The standards present at Bikini were...the USS Pennsylvania (BB-38), USS New York (BB-34), USS Arkansas (BB-33), USS Nevada (BB-36). Nagato obvs was there as well as Sara, Prinz, Independence (CVL), a host of DDs, DEs and SS.
If the fleet anchored at Bikini had been an actual fleet, it would have been the 6th largest fleet in the world at the time. It also included ammunition and ordinance.
Nuclear testing at Bikini Atoll - Wikipedia
The standards present at Bikini were...the USS Pennsylvania (BB-38), USS New York (BB-34), USS Arkansas (BB-33), USS Nevada (BB-36). Nagato obvs was there as well as Sara, Prinz, Independence (CVL), a host of DDs, DEs and SS.
If the fleet anchored at Bikini had been an actual fleet, it would have been the 6th largest fleet in the world at the time. It also included ammunition and ordinance.
Nuclear testing at Bikini Atoll - Wikipedia
- Location
- Minot, North Dakota
New York was hit by forty-one 500 and 100 lb bombs and fifty-six 5in High Velocity air to surface rockets. Rolled over and sank before the surface ships could engage.
This was about two years after the Bikini Atoll tests.
This was about two years after the Bikini Atoll tests.
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thanks for the info.. just one small thing.. i am 90 percent certain that Arkansas and New York were not standards
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- Location
- Minot, North Dakota
They were used similarly, and moved in formation with standards, but they did not have the same all or nothing armor or geared turbine engines. Nevada and Oklahoma were the first of the Standard design, but to a point even they were transitional with Okie still having VTE engines.
Dirtnap
Kanmusu Affecionado
I call em standards because they were part of the big slow battle line the US would have fielded.
21 knots and about a fuck ton of armor. Looks like a standard, waddles like a standard, shoots like a standard...
- Location
- North Cape
I thought I was forgetting a few destroyers.
One day... maybe...
For a WW1-era battleship with a less-than-adequate armor scheme, Yorkie was remarkably resilient. Taking that kind of punishment is no small feat.
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point taken. you know i often wonder if part of the reason the US navy set the speed of the standards at 21 knot was because that was what ships like the New York class were capable of...
Dirtnap
Kanmusu Affecionado
In the 10s and 20s the USN was a follower of the Mahanian Doctrine. The Decisive Battle. Kantai Kessen.
You have your big ass fleet, the enemy has their big ass fleet. You throw them at each other and see who's got the better ships, better crews or worse luck (See Battle of Jutland and Dogger Bank during WW1). That's what Mahanian Doctrine looks like.
The Standards were built the way they were so that all of our big gun battlewagons could operate at the same speed, with the same turning radius and the same basic general characteristics. It made planning for that Decisive Battle much easier.
Then the 30s came with their new-fangled aeroplanes and carrier scouting forces and then Pearl happened and then Carrier Supremacy was the way of the future. It just so happened that we could make more carriers than the enemy could because lol murrica like 4th largest country in the world by volume and natural resources. (Fun fact, the contiguous US (the lower 48) stretches from Lisbon, Portugal to Moscow, Russia and thats just east-west.)
The Standards could have been faster. A design study was done on the Lolorados and it was found they could have had their speed increased by up to 4 knots if they had a bit less armor and a more streamlined shape. These were the 1920 South Dakota class but they were cancelled after the WNT.
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Yeah i know about mahanian doctrine and so on i was more referring to the fact that it seems to me that the US navy could have chosen to make all of the standards capable of moving at for instance 23 knots. that they didn't suggests to me at least that they deliberately chose to limit the standards to 21 knots so that the older vessels could operate with them and i just answered my own question didn't I?
Dirtnap
Kanmusu Affecionado
Not really. During the time, the 21 knot speed was pretty spritely for a ship massing 30,000t+. It's just that as time went on, more ships were getting faster. Warspite for instance did 24 knots (until the brits failed to unfuck her boilers repeatedly and she was left with lingering damage from world war 1).
So the USN did a design study and said, okay we can get twelve 16"/50 guns on a platform that does 23 knots and is armored good against its own guns (20s Sodak would have had a 13.5" inclined belt, with 18" turret faces). Then the various Naval Treaties happened and the ships in construction had to be scrapped. Then the 35k ton weight limit from the 2LNT meant we had to get...creative with the North Carolina class...and invoke the escalator clause when Japan refused to commit to limiting gun sizes. As such we got a nine gun battleship capable of doing 27.5 knots and armored against 14" guns (Like the ones that the Kongou class used, this was what we designed the NC for)
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PAGDTenno
Verified Warmind. Probably on fire.
- Location
- South Carolina
Point of order, SoDak was armored against 16" guns on the same 35,000 ton Standard Displacement limit, (meaning the ship is ready for war in all respects except fuel and boiler feedwater. It's a way of equalizing things between navies that need tons of range and navies that don't). They are, however, squatter and more cramped as a result.
Sandy River DL
(Verified Destroyer Leader)
- Location
- Lake Michigan
- Pronouns
- Her/She
Yes. Yes you did. The turn radius and flank speed for the Standards were the same as those of the Wyoming and New York classes. Though cost may also have been a factor, as devising a 23 knot hull would have been more expensive.
Warspite was built at the same time as Nevada, just so you know.
If Paul Allen really wants a challenge, he could try hunting down the wreck of Oklahoma. We know where it is... to within a few hundred miles.
Most of the Crossroads target fleet that survived the experiment and two years of radiating at Kwajelein ended up being SINKEXed in 1948 due to the discovery, through decontamination experiments conducted on smaller ships (i.e., destroyers), that the only way to make them safe to scrap and/or return to service (it was hoped that some of the destroyers, submarines, and landing craft might be returned to service, at least on reserve status) would be to literally sandblast every square inch of the ship--both outside and inside--to bare metal and repaint, using very careful precautions to ensure that the paint and blasting media was completely removed and did not linger in even the smallest corner, crevice, or crack, followed by removal and replacement of all porous materials that might have trapped bomb debris or other radioactive materials that couldn't be removed by sandblasting-and-scrubbing. The only other option would be to let them sit and radiate until the plutonium, strontium-90, and iodine-131 had half-lifed down to background levels again, 10-20 years. Given the cost of maintaining the fleet at anchor, even in mothball status, and the fact that the decontamination technique that actually worked was not cost-effective, the decision was made that the most fiscally sound choice would be to instead dispose of them in Fleet Training SINKEXes.
I'll note that Independence was retained at... Mare Island, I believe, for further decontamination experiments until somewhere in the 1950-52 range, before she was SINKEXed off San Francisco. Interestingly, the Navy was fully prepared to scuttle the entire target fleet even before the experiment, as it had carried out a number of studies in the interwar years regarding chemical attacks against warships; the results of these were that, while it would be possible to protect the crew during and (immediately) after the attack and have the ship still fight, decontaminating a thoroughly gassed warship would likely be impossible and would end up forcing it to be scuttled due to lingering contamination that could randomly injure or kill unprotected personnel (and it was not feasible to have the entire crew remain protected 24/7 while aboard for the remainder of the ship's design life; if nothing else, they needed to be able to eat). While the exact nature and persistence of radioactive contamination was a surprise, the USN based their selection of the target fleet on the assumption that they would be too contaminated to ever be touched again and would have to be scuttled, because of those interwar studies.
Side note: the four battleships at Crossroads were selected for their relative lack of postwar value. Arkansas was the last 12"-gunned battleship remaining in US service (Wyoming had been stripped of her main battery to provide more positions for experiments and AA guns, and would soon be replaced by Mississippi in the test/training ship role); New York was the last pre-Standard/pre-All or Nothing battleship in US service, with Texas's donation as a memorial. Nevada was short two guns compared to the rest of the Standards and had been a "singleton" since Pearl Harbor, with no surviving sister to share parts stockpiles with, making her more expensive to maintain. Pennsylvania was in the same "singleton" boat as Nevada, and, while she was up essentially to the same spec as the later classes, she had older fire controls (she never got a shot off at Surigao because she'd never gotten the new radar fire control systems) and she also had a critical problem--continued leakage around one shaft after being torpedoed in the screws while at anchor on 12 August 1945 that was not considered cost-effective to repair due to her now only having marginal value.
As for why the Navy specified 21 knots for the Standards, it was partly due to desires for tactical homogeneity with the pre-AoN dreadnoughts that all did 21 knots, and partly because of US design practice at the time. Remember, prior to the advent (in the mid-20s) of high-powered, high-pressure, lightweight steam machinery, the rule when designing capital ships was, "Firepower, protection, speed--pick two," and the US Navy had decided to go with Firepower and Protection as their standard for battleships. (This, by the way, was why both flavors of battlecruiser were invented--the Brits and the Germans both wanted to add Speed to a capital ship, and each chose a different option to sacrifice for it.) While it would have theoretically been possible to build a ship with all three in the pre-WW1 era, the size and weight of the machinery needed to drive a ship with balanced Firepower and Protection at 28 knots would have resulted in a disproportionately large ship, on the order of 100,000 tons, and a very long one that would have probably had trouble finding a place it could be drydocked, not to mention that the expense of such a large ship would limit the numbers that could be fielded.
Given that US war plans at the time were largely defensive and it was felt that the enemy would have to come to us, therefore, there was no huge drive to make our ships faster--indeed, that was why South Carolina and Michigan had retained reciprocating engines instead of adopting turbines (as their contemporary, Dreadnought herself, did); it was felt that there wasn't a great advantage in the higher speed potential of turbines, and reciprocating engines were much more efficient than the early direct-drive steam turbines... which was critical, given that it was felt that our battle fleet had to be able to steam from the West Coast to the Philippines, fight a battle there, and then steam back to either Pearl or the West Coast, without refueling.
That said, the USN was trying to get higher speeds much earlier than we actually went to them; the design proposals that the General Board submitted to SECNAV Josephus Daniels for every class of battleships from the Tennessee class onward were, essentially, early versions of the design for the South Dakota (BB-49) class, complete with the 23 knot speed. Daniels, however, vetoed these requests every year in favor of repeats of the previous year's class with some slight improvements, resulting in the Standards we all know and love.
Most of the Crossroads target fleet that survived the experiment and two years of radiating at Kwajelein ended up being SINKEXed in 1948 due to the discovery, through decontamination experiments conducted on smaller ships (i.e., destroyers), that the only way to make them safe to scrap and/or return to service (it was hoped that some of the destroyers, submarines, and landing craft might be returned to service, at least on reserve status) would be to literally sandblast every square inch of the ship--both outside and inside--to bare metal and repaint, using very careful precautions to ensure that the paint and blasting media was completely removed and did not linger in even the smallest corner, crevice, or crack, followed by removal and replacement of all porous materials that might have trapped bomb debris or other radioactive materials that couldn't be removed by sandblasting-and-scrubbing. The only other option would be to let them sit and radiate until the plutonium, strontium-90, and iodine-131 had half-lifed down to background levels again, 10-20 years. Given the cost of maintaining the fleet at anchor, even in mothball status, and the fact that the decontamination technique that actually worked was not cost-effective, the decision was made that the most fiscally sound choice would be to instead dispose of them in Fleet Training SINKEXes.
I'll note that Independence was retained at... Mare Island, I believe, for further decontamination experiments until somewhere in the 1950-52 range, before she was SINKEXed off San Francisco. Interestingly, the Navy was fully prepared to scuttle the entire target fleet even before the experiment, as it had carried out a number of studies in the interwar years regarding chemical attacks against warships; the results of these were that, while it would be possible to protect the crew during and (immediately) after the attack and have the ship still fight, decontaminating a thoroughly gassed warship would likely be impossible and would end up forcing it to be scuttled due to lingering contamination that could randomly injure or kill unprotected personnel (and it was not feasible to have the entire crew remain protected 24/7 while aboard for the remainder of the ship's design life; if nothing else, they needed to be able to eat). While the exact nature and persistence of radioactive contamination was a surprise, the USN based their selection of the target fleet on the assumption that they would be too contaminated to ever be touched again and would have to be scuttled, because of those interwar studies.
Side note: the four battleships at Crossroads were selected for their relative lack of postwar value. Arkansas was the last 12"-gunned battleship remaining in US service (Wyoming had been stripped of her main battery to provide more positions for experiments and AA guns, and would soon be replaced by Mississippi in the test/training ship role); New York was the last pre-Standard/pre-All or Nothing battleship in US service, with Texas's donation as a memorial. Nevada was short two guns compared to the rest of the Standards and had been a "singleton" since Pearl Harbor, with no surviving sister to share parts stockpiles with, making her more expensive to maintain. Pennsylvania was in the same "singleton" boat as Nevada, and, while she was up essentially to the same spec as the later classes, she had older fire controls (she never got a shot off at Surigao because she'd never gotten the new radar fire control systems) and she also had a critical problem--continued leakage around one shaft after being torpedoed in the screws while at anchor on 12 August 1945 that was not considered cost-effective to repair due to her now only having marginal value.
"There were only two [non-Pearl Harbor] cases of torpedo damage to the older battleships.... Pennsylvania, also at anchor, was hit aft, on 12 August 1945, at Buckner Bay, Okinawa. The torpedo struck her outboard starboard propeller shaft, and the resulting noncontact explosion blew a hole 32 feet long and 30 feet high in her stern, at about the position of her steering engine. The outboard propeller shaft was blown off, and the inboard starboard shaft (No. 2) had to be cut off, as its strut was broken. The ship's keel and her entire stern were badly twisted. As a result, the inboard port shaft was thrown out of alignment (about 5.5 inches vertically, and about 2.5 inches horizontally). Although all watertight doors aft were closed, the ship flooded through the large hole and also through her ventilators and through exhaust vents near the overheads of flooded spaces. She took on about 3400 tons of water and trimmed about 6 feet by her stern. The combination of twisting and damage aft made her yaw back and forth during a lengthy tow to Guam for temporary repairs. These consisted of a steel patch over her hole, realignment of No. 3 shaft, and restoration of her rudder....
"In each case, the torpedo exploded well beyond the fore-and-aft limits of the antitorpedo armor. Even so, in the case of the Pennsylvania, it was able to do very serious damage; it took just over two hours to control the flooding. Had the ship been underway, she might have been damaged further by the rotation of the bent propeller shafts, as was the case with the Prince of Wales. As it was, repairs at Guam were only temporary, for the ship was scheduled for decommissioning and scrapping. On passage to Puget Sound in October 1945, No. 3 shaft suddenly carried away in its stern tube, and it and its propeller had to be cut away. The Pennsylvania entered Puget Sound shipping water, with only one shaft turning.
"Ironically, slow flooding due to the damage aft was considered a more serious threat than the topside damage she suffered during two nuclear tests at Bikini. It, rather than the nuclear damage, justified her scuttling two years later, in 1948."
--From U.S. Battleships: An Illustrated Design History by Norman Friedman, Appendix B "Damage at Pearl Harbor", page 417 of the hardback edition
"In each case, the torpedo exploded well beyond the fore-and-aft limits of the antitorpedo armor. Even so, in the case of the Pennsylvania, it was able to do very serious damage; it took just over two hours to control the flooding. Had the ship been underway, she might have been damaged further by the rotation of the bent propeller shafts, as was the case with the Prince of Wales. As it was, repairs at Guam were only temporary, for the ship was scheduled for decommissioning and scrapping. On passage to Puget Sound in October 1945, No. 3 shaft suddenly carried away in its stern tube, and it and its propeller had to be cut away. The Pennsylvania entered Puget Sound shipping water, with only one shaft turning.
"Ironically, slow flooding due to the damage aft was considered a more serious threat than the topside damage she suffered during two nuclear tests at Bikini. It, rather than the nuclear damage, justified her scuttling two years later, in 1948."
--From U.S. Battleships: An Illustrated Design History by Norman Friedman, Appendix B "Damage at Pearl Harbor", page 417 of the hardback edition
As for why the Navy specified 21 knots for the Standards, it was partly due to desires for tactical homogeneity with the pre-AoN dreadnoughts that all did 21 knots, and partly because of US design practice at the time. Remember, prior to the advent (in the mid-20s) of high-powered, high-pressure, lightweight steam machinery, the rule when designing capital ships was, "Firepower, protection, speed--pick two," and the US Navy had decided to go with Firepower and Protection as their standard for battleships. (This, by the way, was why both flavors of battlecruiser were invented--the Brits and the Germans both wanted to add Speed to a capital ship, and each chose a different option to sacrifice for it.) While it would have theoretically been possible to build a ship with all three in the pre-WW1 era, the size and weight of the machinery needed to drive a ship with balanced Firepower and Protection at 28 knots would have resulted in a disproportionately large ship, on the order of 100,000 tons, and a very long one that would have probably had trouble finding a place it could be drydocked, not to mention that the expense of such a large ship would limit the numbers that could be fielded.
Given that US war plans at the time were largely defensive and it was felt that the enemy would have to come to us, therefore, there was no huge drive to make our ships faster--indeed, that was why South Carolina and Michigan had retained reciprocating engines instead of adopting turbines (as their contemporary, Dreadnought herself, did); it was felt that there wasn't a great advantage in the higher speed potential of turbines, and reciprocating engines were much more efficient than the early direct-drive steam turbines... which was critical, given that it was felt that our battle fleet had to be able to steam from the West Coast to the Philippines, fight a battle there, and then steam back to either Pearl or the West Coast, without refueling.
That said, the USN was trying to get higher speeds much earlier than we actually went to them; the design proposals that the General Board submitted to SECNAV Josephus Daniels for every class of battleships from the Tennessee class onward were, essentially, early versions of the design for the South Dakota (BB-49) class, complete with the 23 knot speed. Daniels, however, vetoed these requests every year in favor of repeats of the previous year's class with some slight improvements, resulting in the Standards we all know and love.
- Location
- North Cape
Just wait until he finds Akagi, Kaga, Soryū and Hiryū...
PAGDTenno
Verified Warmind. Probably on fire.
- Location
- South Carolina
We know the region Kaga has to be in, since we know where some of her 25mm guns landed on the seabed. And Hiryu is going to be pretty far from the other three, because she didn't get nailed by the opening dive-bombing.
- Location
- Somewhere
Do we know how long the OP is banned for? Or is this one effectively dead in the water here?
Harry Leferts
Suave Shadow Cabal Kaiju
Probably for a while considering what got him banned...
- Location
- Somewhere
Yeah, was there for that. The mod's comment implied it might even be permanent iirc.
Farmerbob1
Rest in Peace
- Location
- Atlanta-ish
Without discussing any particulars, I have been FAR less than pleased with my own encounters with the moderation staff on this site, and the exceptions they carve out for themselves when it comes to their own behavior, which is why I moved all my long form fiction to fanfiction.net a few months back. That said, the OP's status is officially showing as temp banned, not permanently banned.
- Location
- Somewhere
Honestly, I've found them significantly more reasonable and willing to listen to arguments/appeals than the mods over on SB, where being even slightly heated is an infraction if you are arguing against rightwing politics in America.