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Belated Battleships (KanColle) [REHOST]

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Nixeu said:
Given how all of their current ships and tech aren't useful, and they don't have the same information as we do, the odds are fairly good that most countries, once given the option, will stay the hell out of it. As they currently are. The only countries 'in extremis' are those who decided to resist the demons, currently.

The Navy would also have reason to believe that what made Mo and Whisky so effective was the souls of the ships. After all, their gear didn't seem to work for modern ships, if it was transfered, as I recall. Even we in the thread aren't clear on if new ships based on old models would work or not. So the US, and everyone but Japan and England, would probably mostly be spending their time coping with what happened, and trying to summon their own ships. Probably while reinforcing their mainland bases as best they could, and evacuating civilians from islands.

This also isn't really a war you can win by going to a 'war footing', as the wreckage The Abyssals made of the fleets of the world illustrated eloquently. Without know what to spend your production on, why shut existing factories down, when you don't know what new ones to staff (assuming the skills even carry over, which they may not), or start rationing resources that will likely just end up sitting around in a warehouse, piling up, and doing nothing? The only industry I see that maybe being a useful thing to do would be the farming industry, and maybe some amount of food rationing.
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Honestly, when you have two viable options, be eaten, or win, most of us would throw everything at the Abyssals. The R&D geeks would be allowed to experiment, and the established ship types that have been effective would be duplicated. There would be many, many small classes of ships, until effective new-build ships showed up. Then the mass production would begin. I think we had 100 escort carriers unfinished in shipyards at the end of WW2. That's just one ship class. I dont know where to look for real numbers, but I strongly suspect that there were upwards of 300 warships of different types in the yards being built at the end of the war.
 
Whiskey Golf said:
Don't get me wrong, you are pointing out perfectly legitimate issues (and I actually do agree with you to a fair extent), but the way you are doing it is why people are saying you're being salty. It's not just what you say, but how you say it.
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If I've gotten salty, it's because of how issues have continually gotten more and more compounded since this whole arc began. It goes all the way back to when Sendai and Maya were sunk. Yes, I realize that you had a good point when it came out that all remaining USN air assets would be having issues due to being run into the ground, we have not seen anything to fix that. I mean, for example, how hard would it be for them ask Viking Air to start spamming the Guardian Varient Twin Otter for their use to free up other assets. And yet... nothing despite this now being Year Two of the war.

But as the arc has dragged on, the issues have only piled on since then with the Abyssals pulling out more and more bullshit abilities and luck. The whole "Abyssals are starving now" seemed to be more tacked on as an afterthought to avoid people wondering about it does not help. But when the issues are raised, we are waved off and told "This is nothing new, the Abyssals always had this."

Another example was the explanation over on SB for why Pearl doesn't have any shipgirls. Which besides the whole "Pearl's been attacked before and held without any shipgirl help, so they didn't think that they needed any" (which I think you will also agree is handing the idiot ball to the American Admiralty) was also "And this way it does not tie any shipgirls down in one place and they can hunt the Abyssals." Meanwhile they spend time eating, going on trips off base, and so on. Because, hey, Abyssals are impossible to track due to magical bullshit so they have no idea where they are. And so they sit around doing nothing while waiting, which is then translated into them having fun and so on.

Which annoys me, and yes, might make me a bit salty. And with good reason.
 
Farmerbob1 said:
Honestly, when you have two viable options, be eaten, or win, most of us would throw everything at the Abyssals. The R&D geeks would be allowed to experiment, and the established ship types that have been effective would be duplicated. There would be many, many small classes of ships, until effective new-build ships showed up. Then the mass production would begin. I think we had 100 escort carriers unfinished in shipyards at the end of WW2. That's just one ship class. I dont know where to look for real numbers, but I strongly suspect that there were upwards of 300 warships of different types in the yards being built at the end of the war.
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Designing new ships is still going to take time - spring styles, design drawings, scale models, proof of concepts - you can't really cut corners, not if you want a good ship. It's still going to take several years for newbuild ships to hit the fleet, and that assumes you don't need to build the infrastructure to build those new ships.

Also you can, I presume, cite sources for those 100 unfinished CVEs and 300-odd unfinished ships? I'm only aware of the 12 cancelled Commencement Bay-class CVEs.
 
Actually, there's more than even he's predicting. My count is 783 ships from the various USN WWII major combatant classes.

Submarines - 62 Balao-class, 51 Tench-class
Destroyer-Escorts - 8 Evarts-class, 52 Buckley-class, 44 Cannon-class, 180 Rudderow-class, 210 John C. Butler-class
Destroyers - 13 Fletcher-class, 12 Allen M. Sumner-class, 54 Gearing-class
Light Cruisers - 25 Cleveland-class, 11 Fargo-class, 8 Worcester-class
Heavy Cruisers - 6 Oregon City-class, 9 Des Moines-class
Battle Cruisers - 4 Alaska-class
Seaplane Tenders - 4 Kenneth Whiting-class
Escort Carriers - 12 Commencement Bay-class
Fleet Carriers - 8 Essex-class, 3 Midway-class
Battleships - 2 Iowa-class, 5 Montana-class
 
ijnfleetadmiral said:
Actually, there's more than even he's predicting. My count is 783 ships from the various USN WWII major combatant classes.

Submarines - 62 Balao-class, 51 Tench-class
Destroyer-Escorts - 8 Evarts-class, 52 Buckley-class, 44 Cannon-class, 180 Rudderow-class, 210 John C. Butler-class
Destroyers - 13 Fletcher-class, 12 Allen M. Sumner-class, 54 Gearing-class
Light Cruisers - 25 Cleveland-class, 11 Fargo-class, 8 Worcester-class
Heavy Cruisers - 6 Oregon City-class, 9 Des Moines-class
Battle Cruisers - 4 Alaska-class
Seaplane Tenders - 4 Kenneth Whiting-class
Escort Carriers - 12 Commencement Bay-class
Fleet Carriers - 8 Essex-class, 3 Midway-class
Battleships - 2 Iowa-class, 5 Montana-class
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I'm trying to get him to cite sources and show his workings lol, you're passing him notes in class :p
 
Farmerbob1 said:
In short, if the situation changes from business-as-usual in the US to a real existential threat, I strongly suspect that we could have new destroyers commissioning within a year of starting to dig new yards. Cruisers in 1.5 years, and heavy armor ships in 3 years.
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It took, with war priority, existing designs, existing industries and existing experience, about two years to churn out a mass-produced WW2 Cleveland cruiser, which is a lot simpler design than current day cruisers and destroyers. An Arleigh Burke destroyer takes two to three years to build but that is in addition to any long lead items that may have to be ordered beforehand (up to two years is what a short Googling got me).

Therefore I think that with not yet existing designs, yet to built yards, yet to built industries and a not yet trained let alone experienced workforce your estimate of new cruisers commissioning in a year and half is "ambitious" to use modern euphemisms, even with absolute priority.
 
Gosu said:
It took, with war priority, existing designs, existing industries and existing experience, about two years to churn out a mass-produced WW2 Cleveland cruiser, which is a lot simpler design than current day cruisers and destroyers. An Arleigh Burke destroyer takes two to three years to build but that is in addition to any long lead items that may have to be ordered beforehand (up to two years is what a short Googling got me).

Therefore I think that with not yet existing designs, yet to built yards, yet to built industries and a not yet trained let alone experienced workforce your estimate of new cruisers commissioning in a year and half is "ambitious" to use modern euphemisms, even with absolute priority.
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Advanced technology might not always be much good for fighting Abyssals, but for building facilities and manufacturing?

Look at modern earthmoving equipment. A single modern hydraulic face shovel and a few 400 ton mining dump trucks could excavate a site and canal faster than a 1940s era engineer could imagine.

Machine assisted manufacturing like what we see in auto manufacturing facilities could be designed for warship production. Enormous welding jobs requiring dozens of men and hundreds of hours would be done in a couple hours by a small team of engineers, a couple mechanics, and automatic welders.

Steel manufacturing is not the problem most people think it is.

Steel is normally made in very large batches of 50 to 200 tons or so. It is made liquid, chemically adjusted to spec with additives, then poured into a ladle, which, in turn is poured into a caster.

To shift production from standard industry billets to warship armor billets would require changes to the caster and the rolling table where the steel is sent out into the air to cool. Today's modern rolling mills would simply need new rollers, and a new cooling table.

The steel industry could be making armor-grade steel of the correct dimensions needed for armored ships in less than a year.
 
Farmerbob1 said:
Honestly, when you have two viable options, be eaten, or win, most of us would throw everything at the Abyssals. The R&D geeks would be allowed to experiment, and the established ship types that have been effective would be duplicated. There would be many, many small classes of ships, until effective new-build ships showed up. Then the mass production would begin. I think we had 100 escort carriers unfinished in shipyards at the end of WW2. That's just one ship class. I dont know where to look for real numbers, but I strongly suspect that there were upwards of 300 warships of different types in the yards being built at the end of the war.
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Except they don't know how the Abyssals operate, or that they need blood. They have no idea it's be eaten or win. So if it's a choice between fighting, and getting hammered, or meekly submitting and staying off the seas, a lot of countries and people would take the latter option. And that's what they think the choice is. Again, this is a case of us knowing how bad the Abyssals really are, and, up until recently, the people on the ground not having a clue.

It seems like all the R&D funds went into 'methods of summoning our own ships', which makes sense, given how effective the Japanese shipgirls were. It doesn't require rebuilding old infrastructure, nor does it pull funds away from preexisting projects. Hell, getting Mo and Whisky active was probably originally one of those attempts, since they probably don't know about the requirements of self-summoning.

Given that the Abyssals aren't an obviously existential threat to the US, most of it being well inland and away from the sea, I don't see them throwing all of their money into experimenting with new designs. In a scenario like what they likely believed to be the case, going with the surer bet of summoning (which probably seemed like it should have been much easier and more cost-effective, given the data from the Japanese and English summoning) would be the smarter one. Especially with the Japanese ships to guard their ports and buy them time. You'd get active, effective ships immediately, instead of possibly effective ships in a few years.

I don't think I can stress enough that we are much more aware of how much of a threat to humanity the Abyssals are than most of the people on the ground. Especially in the earliest days of the fight, before any islands had been reclaimed, and a picture of what they're really like began to form. To the majority of the world, so long as the Abyssals stay in the seas, they're not a threat. That means the only people fighting them are the countries that need food shipped in to survive, those too stubborn to give up the seas, and the allies of the former who stand by them. And I guarantee you, there was some debate in the US about whether or not we should fall into that last category, or just leave Japan and England to their fate, and abandon the seas.
 
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Whiskey Golf said:
In terms of armament and equivalent role, however, LCS more closely matches up to a WW2 DE equivalent, particularly if you run ASW LCS. Modern-wise, LCS is basically a big corvette with cross ocean capability; it displaces as much as it does because everyone else's corvettes are short ranged local ships, while LCS needs to be able to cross the Atlantic and Pacific oceans. So if the US spammed LCS I could see the leveling effect making them about as effective as DEs.

Reworking the layout for more dakka basically means you have to redesign the ship tho, and the Bofors 57mm, while a decent punchy gun for doing corvette things, isn't really going to cut it except in AA mode. ASuW LCS mounts the two 30mm Bushmaster IIs, but the effectiveness of those wrt leveling effect is debatable. You can turn LCS into a missile boat fairly easily, that said - you can put AShM canisters between the gun and the superstructure, and if you say fuckit and don't carry helos, the flight deck has a lot of real estate for missile canisters (which is what they did for the NSM integration tests). Problem, again, is the leveling effect acting on modern tech.
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True, but the design was intended to be a modular one anyway with weapon systems to be switched out as needed. Given the time of the story it is possible to refit the design to one more suited the war against the Abyssals. Refitting an Independence is a bit tricker due to the overall design of the ship, which I thought would make a better Kanmusu support ship than a DD...not to mention the Independence is built in Mobile and Pascagoula...both exposed shipyards on the Gulf as opposed to a better defended shipyard on the Great Lakes.
 
Nixeu said:
Except they don't know how the Abyssals operate, or that they need blood. They have no idea it's be eaten or win. So if it's a choice between fighting, and getting hammered, or meekly submitting and staying off the seas, a lot of countries and people would take the latter option. And that's what they think the choice is. Again, this is a case of us knowing how bad the Abyssals really are, and, up until recently, the people on the ground not having a clue.

It seems like all the R&D funds went into 'methods of summoning our own ships', which makes sense, given how effective the Japanese shipgirls were. It doesn't require rebuilding old infrastructure, nor does it pull funds away from preexisting projects. Hell, getting Mo and Whisky active was probably originally one of those attempts, since they probably don't know about the requirements of self-summoning.

Given that the Abyssals aren't an obviously existential threat to the US, most of it being well inland and away from the sea, I don't see them throwing all of their money into experimenting with new designs. In a scenario like what they likely believed to be the case, going with the surer bet of summoning (which probably seemed like it should have been much easier and more cost-effective, given the data from the Japanese and English summoning) would be the smarter one. Especially with the Japanese ships to guard their ports and buy them time. You'd get active, effective ships immediately, instead of possibly effective ships in a few years.

I don't think I can stress enough that we are much more aware of how much of a threat to humanity the Abyssals are than most of the people on the ground. Especially in the earliest days of the fight, before any islands had been reclaimed, and a picture of what they're really like began to form. To the majority of the world, so long as the Abyssals stay in the seas, they're not a threat. That means the only people fighting them are the countries that need food shipped in to survive, those too stubborn to give up the seas, and the allies of the former who stand by them. And I guarantee you, there was some debate in the US about whether or not we should fall into that last category, or just leave Japan and England to their fate, and abandon the seas.
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The Abyssals ate coastal China. People know, even if they are in denial.
 
Alternatively he doesn't follow the fic anymore.

Mind you, I stopped crossposting my stuff period. At least my KC stuff.
 
baofengyu said:
True, but the design was intended to be a modular one anyway with weapon systems to be switched out as needed. Given the time of the story it is possible to refit the design to one more suited the war against the Abyssals. Refitting an Independence is a bit tricker due to the overall design of the ship, which I thought would make a better Kanmusu support ship than a DD...not to mention the Independence is built in Mobile and Pascagoula...both exposed shipyards on the Gulf as opposed to a better defended shipyard on the Great Lakes.
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Sure, but there's limits to the modularity of the LCS. The real modularity is in the mission modules, which fit in the mission bay under the flight deck; weapons upgrades are going to be a bit more involved and will need a bit more effort. Now that's still okay for fighting normal human opponents, but my concern is that the leveling effect makes LCS about as effective as a DE.

One of the thing they've been olaying with ASW LCS is using Fire Scout UAVs as spotters for the LCS, send the UAV up to peek around and spot targets for a missile shoot, but again, leveling effect...


... i hate the leveling effect.
 
Farmerbob1 said:
Advanced technology might not always be much good for fighting Abyssals, but for building facilities and manufacturing?
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A modern British AOR, built in a highly efficient and experienced Korean yard, takes about two years from cutting the first steel to sailing for Europe in unfinished state. This is not a combat ship, it's unarmored, and based on an existing design.

Not-yet-existing designs build in not-yet-existing yards using not-yet-existent work forces, won't have a mere year and a half before the first new cruiser commissions.

Farmerbob1 said:
Steel manufacturing is not the problem most people think it is.

Steel is normally made in very large batches of 50 to 200 tons or so. It is made liquid, chemically adjusted to spec with additives, then poured into a ladle, which, in turn is poured into a caster.

To shift production from standard industry billets to warship armor billets would require changes to the caster and the rolling table where the steel is sent out into the air to cool. Today's modern rolling mills would simply need new rollers, and a new cooling table.
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Does that deliver face-hardened armor? As I understand it that is a time consuming process done after the armor comes off the rolling table.
 
Whiskey Golf said:
Sure, but there's limits to the modularity of the LCS. The real modularity is in the mission modules, which fit in the mission bay under the flight deck; weapons upgrades are going to be a bit more involved and will need a bit more effort. Now that's still okay for fighting normal human opponents, but my concern is that the leveling effect makes LCS about as effective as a DE.

One of the thing they've been olaying with ASW LCS is using Fire Scout UAVs as spotters for the LCS, send the UAV up to peek around and spot targets for a missile shoot, but again, leveling effect...


... i hate the leveling effect.
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Now I wonder what would happen if you mounted a version of the Saab ASW-600/601. Yes, they are supposed to be used in shallow waters like the Baltic, but would probably be like Hedgehogs in equivalency.

And Uboats fucking hated the Hedgehogs.
 
Harry Leferts said:
Now I wonder what would happen if you mounted a version of the Saab ASW-600/601. Yes, they are supposed to be used in shallow waters like the Baltic, but would probably be like Hedgehogs in equivalency.

And Uboats fucking hated the Hedgehogs.
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Well, LCS was supposed to be a littoral subhunter, but if you can ASW in the littorals, oceangoing ASW is a lot easier. Problem is where to out the weapons tho, since you need to have a certain a mount of clearance on the flight deck
 
Whiskey Golf said:
Well, LCS was supposed to be a littoral subhunter, but if you can ASW in the littorals, oceangoing ASW is a lot easier. Problem is where to out the weapons tho, since you need to have a certain a mount of clearance on the flight deck
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Considering that said weapon fires upwards at an angle for several hundred feet to land a similar distance away... Think something like Mousetrap.
 
Gosu said:
A modern British AOR, built in a highly efficient and experienced Korean yard, takes about two years from cutting the first steel to sailing for Europe in unfinished state. This is not a combat ship, it's unarmored, and based on an existing design.

Not-yet-existing designs build in not-yet-existing yards using not-yet-existent work forces, won't have a mere year and a half before the first new cruiser commissions.

Does that deliver face-hardened armor? As I understand it that is a time consuming process done after the armor comes off the rolling table.
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That two-year ship is being built within a commercial, capitalist, regulated economy by people working for money.

Remove most of the regulations, motivate the workers with demons, and enact a military economy dedicated to warfighting materials, and things get a lot faster.

I do not know much about face hardening, but it is my understanding that the hardening must happen after shaping, and that it is basically carbon-quenching. I see no reason why this could not be done after the shaping process. Quenching is normally a fairly fast process.
 
Harry Leferts said:
Considering that said weapon fires upwards at an angle for several hundred feet to land a similar distance away... Think something like Mousetrap.
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Sure but I was thinking more deck layouts and where it wouldn't interfere with flight ops.

easiest I suppose would be to put it on the hangar roof where the 30mm guns go, or perhaps mount it where they put Harpoons, in front of the superstructure.
 
Since I'm new here, I've been struggling to set things up...signature won't accept the link to my own kancolle fic..blegh
Jumper, would you be able to get someone to rehost on fanfic if nuker isn't able to?
 
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