Attempting to Subvert the Plan: Dominion Edition

Retcon: Should General Horner (the MC) have been The Magistrate (Starcraft 1 PC)?

  • Yes

    Votes: 35 43.8%
  • No

    Votes: 29 36.3%
  • This does not matter to me

    Votes: 16 20.0%

  • Total voters
    80
  • Poll closed .
So things might be different in this particular game, and that is fine no issue there, but I am pretty sure that medics are considered canonically to have existed even pre-Brood War in the official setting.
 
I'm definetly fully in support in contacting Starke next turn! Maybe we could do that and buy/build our company.
It'd be tricky doing both. Unless we increase our personal funds next turn, we'll only have 50F to play with. Doing both actions means we'll have a decent chance of eating some Paranoia.

Still I feel obligated to point out that contacting Valerian will not be as simple as contacting Starke. We'll need to gain Starke's trust first with Personal actions. That won't be easy, as anything involving Security is likely to have high Paranoia DC's, questionable morality, or both. Not saying we shouldn't do it, but it is definitely a very long-term option. Hopefully we can shake out some Personal action DC reductions from Mira's Marauders (I'm not confident that Import-Export will be enough).
 
It'd be tricky doing both. Unless we increase our personal funds next turn, we'll only have 50F to play with. Doing both actions means we'll have a decent chance of eating some Paranoia.

Still I feel obligated to point out that contacting Valerian will not be as simple as contacting Starke. We'll need to gain Starke's trust first with Personal actions. That won't be easy, as anything involving Security is likely to have high Paranoia DC's, questionable morality, or both. Not saying we shouldn't do it, but it is definitely a very long-term option. Hopefully we can shake out some Personal action DC reductions from Mira's Marauders (I'm not confident that Import-Export will be enough).

Gotcha and understood. Like its very easy for me to say "I want both" when I haven't done the actual math to make sure that we have the resources and the dice to safely allow both. Because I am all for us ONLY doing those actions that could increase Paranoia if we give it the proper dice to offset Paranoia.

On which is more important to me, hmm, that's hard to answer. I think the import-export business is beneficial with us getting more money, and that's good, but the contact with Starke is useful when it comes to making contacts - and that is important.

But yeah, no matter what, I will always want us to put enough dice to as easily as possible offset Paranoia gain.
 
You know, people keep joking about Raynor getting into trouble with the Treasury regarding his taxes, but he wouldn't be the first rebel to learn the hard way not to mess with the revenue men.

Robert E. Lee had his family plantation seized for lack of tax payments. In fairness to Lee, he tried to pay up, but Uncle Sam insisted that he make the tax payment in person, which was obviously a no-go as he was still fighting for the Confederacy.

The U.S government then bought it from the tax auction. Not being above some petty revenge, they decided to use the property to bury war casualties, due to the normal graveyards being nearly full up of honored dead. And that's how Arlington National Cemetary was born.

In case anyone is wondering how I know this, I toured Arlington when I went on vacation to D.C several years ago. The history of the grounds was explained in said tour. I had forgotten all about it when the discussion brought it back to mind.
 
History of the Hyperion (Canon)
Historia Hyperion: The Most Wanted Battlecruiser.
Flush with cash after the Guild Wars, the Confederacy began investigating a series of upgrades for the splendidly well served Behemoth-class Battlecruiser, which would culminate ten years later with the first Yamato canon prototypes. Because this project was very experimental however, a testbed ship was needed, and the under-construction Behemoth General Lee was selected for upgrades and structural reinforcement to supply it with the durability and backup power supplies needed for an experimental ship. Confederate graft and corruption soon made the procurement of the General Lee's components a matter of some disagreement and, while the exact reasons have been lost, the ship was fitted while under construction with a Warp Drive of unusual design and power was made central to the design. While almost every other feature of the new battlecruiser was made modular, this one key piece was locked in more solidly than normal, and indeed, the ship's structure was arranged so that the warp drive couldn't be removed without first cutting the ship's main structural spine in half. The warp drive itself was the first and only one of it's kind ever built, the J-5700. The Confederacy had taken a great risk on this engine type, designed by a team of ambitious scientists rather than the normal procurement channels, based entirely on their promise of it's capability. According to it's makers, the J-5700 would be the first warp drive to drastically improve over the drives used by the old colony ships, giving the Battlecruiser the ability to jump much deeper inside gravity wells, and to navigate much more accurately, opening up tactical use of the warp drive. As the Ship underwent fitting out, this feature, above all others, dominated the ship's scuttlebutt and the focus of attention.

Unfortunately for the Confederacy, the ship's first captain, one Commodore Arthur Smythe, was a strong believer in the power of his new ship, and eager to demonstrate it with a 'rock and roll' cruiser through Umojan space where he would violate sovereign territory and invite reprisal with impunity. Smythe's first jump was towards the Umojan asteroid colony UMS-3984K, and upon exiting warp the Battlecruiser collided directly with the asteroid, smashing the bridge and instantly killing Commodore Smythe thanks to both the sudden stop as his head slammed into the rocks, and the total lack of air. Incredibly, the misjump had not shattered the battlecruiser into a thousand pieces strewn across the surface of the asteroid, and had instead come *almost* to a complete stop, *mostly* intact. Umojan salvage teams swiftly moved in and were able to both effect rescue operations and begin the process of towing the bent, but not broken battlecruiser back into their shipyards. The crew's survivors were well fed and pumped for information over several months, as the Umojans patched up and further upgraded with damaged ship. The ship's navigation lieutenant, Pollock Rimes, provided a partial account of the ship's warp drive and final jump-Rimes hadn't been on the bridge but had lost his front teeth and gains several nasty scars in the accident. At the same time, the Confederacy declared the entire 2000 man crew MIA, when in fact, only 300 were dead and the reamander were trying to get back from Umoja or accepting new jobs in the Protectorate.

The Protectorate Naval Service however, found that they were ill-equipped to tend to a Behemoth-class Battlecruiser, especially one so experimental. There was much to learn from the ship, but it was also a hodgepodge of graft, corruption and simply non-functional systems. As she was found, the ship had no weapons able to fire at an exactly flat broadside, she always had to roll her hull so the top or bottom turrets could bear on the target. The cavernous interiors were also somewhat sparse once you left officer country, with no less than 12 major landing bays. The ship had no role in Umojan doctrine, though their navy was eager to learn what it could. When that was tapped out, the ship was offered, along with the crew who had not taken other jobs, to a visiting Arcturus Mengsk. It was in fact, to obtain his new flagship, that Arcturus brought much of the Korhal treasury to Umoja with him when the planet was destroyed-and a sale became an indefinite loan to the Sons of Korhal. Mengsk re-named his ship Hyperion for an ancient titan who was a father of gods, fitting his own classical mythological taste in names for ships. Over the next nine years, Mengsk employed Pollock Rimes as the ship's flag captain, giving him broad instructions but generally avoiding fights. The J-5700 engine was given only rare workouts during this time, as the Sons of Korhal didn't have the documentation to repair it and also didn't trust it after it's first disasterous test. Famously, in one clash with the Norad II, Pollock Rimes let himself get blocked by the other battlecruiser, unable to jump to warp without ramming the other ship and destroying both of them. Shortly thereafter however, Rimes was outed by Sarah Kerrigan as a confederate mole, who had been passing data on the Sons to the Confederate military in exchange for potential clemency and generous benefits to his family.

After 2500, the Hyperion actively, though rarely participated in the Great War, as the Terran Confederacy began to break down under Zerg attacks and the Sons' actions. At Mar Sara, it engaged briefly a Confederate Blockade group to clear the way for escaping colonists, while at Brontes, the Hyperion was damaged by the Norad II's Yamato cannon and lost 150 crew, but managed to limp away due to the sturdy Umojan refits, and was out of combat for the Antiga Prime Campaign, where Norad II was lost due to Scourge attacks that overwhelmed it's lasers and missile pods. With the final assault on Tarsonis beginning, Mengsk brought the fleet to Tarsonis in good order, with the Hyperion coming along mostly as a command post instead of a combat vessel. As the Psi Emitters were being placed, one of Mengsk's scavengers found a set of new experimental equipment for Battlecruisers, and a hastily built dock just large enough for a single ship to undergo refits in. As the Protoss and Zerg entered the system, Mengsk took the time to have his flagship dock with the orbital platform and begin to take on all the lovely toys it had never before been equipped with-rapid fire lasers designed to deal with Scourge, heavier laser batteries for improved combat ability, and a Yamato Cannon of his very own. There were even technical manuals, over twelve years old, for the Hyperion's temperamental engines. For the time being however, this meant that the Hyperion lost it's status as flagship while Mengsk transfered his command to the Norad II.

Command of the Hyperion under her refit was confused and a recently arrived Matt Horner was able to secretly move members of Raynor's Raiders into place on the ship while the rest of the group hit the Ion Cannon. By the time the Raiders destroyed the cannon, however, Norad II and the rest of the fleet were moving to pin them in, as Hyperion finally moved out of dock-and flicked her IFF from Dominion Red to Raider Blue. Confident in his ability to take Hyperion again, General Duke moved Norad II to block it's escape as he had done almost a decade earlier. Matt Horner was not like previous captains of the Hyperion however, and as the raider's transports moved into dock, he slowed the drive and began a slow, erratic fire to drive off Wraiths and other pursuers while he lined up his thesis. Rather than attempt to escape directly, Lieutenant Horner, a navigator by training, and precise by his natural inclination, lined up the J-5700 for an unprecedented in-system jump. What has come to be known as Horner's Doughnut saw the Hyperion jump into a twisted abortive warp-jump that landed him firmly *behind* the Norad II, with his new Yamato cannon firmly pointed up the aft of the other ship and neutralizing one of it's engine clusters in a single shot before breaking off and escaping. Unlike every other commander of the ship to date Matt Horner has firmly embraced the possibilities of the J-5700 and makes frequent use of it in combat, jumping much closer to planets on raids, and much more accurately into combat situations. The Raiders have since used the Hyperion to raid the Dylarrian shipyards ahead of the Dominion establishing control there, to launch their own invasion of Char, and most astonishingly of all, have taken their ship to the Protoss Homeworld, thousands of light years away from the Koprolu sector, making the Hyperion the most-traveled ship in modern Terran history.

Emperor Mengsk offers a 30 million credit bounty for the return of his once and hopefully future flagship.
 
2) Doing anything that might accrue glory or public regard for the person doing it. Public healthcare is going to be very popular with the average person, and even though Mengsk will get the lion's share of the credit, people will also be grateful to you personally for getting it done.
4) Doing or implementing anything that gains the person doing it power, influence, or resources. Hiring independent experts falls under this category, as does growing your staff beyond a certain point.
...What.

Mengsk is against effective government? How does he figure the people will react once they realize that his bureaucracy is nothing but graft and incompetence?
 
Listen. It's been a while since I played StarCraft, but to my recollection Arcturus Mengsk has exactly one policy goal, and that is the personal power and safety of Arcturus Mengsk.
 
I wouldn't say Mengsk is specifically against effective government in the sense that things being run well makes him mad, but he's so paranoid that every policy decision that isn't total sycophancy gets him seeing a potential risk to his position at the top sometime down the line.

He looks at a thriving, non-Korhal planet and congratulates the governor for doing good work, because it is good work. But somewhere in the back of his mind, he looks at it all and sees a powerbase that isn't under his direct micromanagement, and maybe, maybe at some point could be turned against him. Maybe the governor won't do that. But they could.

It's Paranoia after all. It isn't rational.
 
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I wouldn't say Mengsk is specifically against effective government in the sense that things being run well makes him mad, but he's so paranoid that every policy decision that isn't total sycophancy gets him seeing a potential risk to his position at the top sometime down the line.

He looks at a thriving, non-Korhal planet and congratulates the governor for doing good work, because it is good work. But somewhere in the back of his mind, he looks at it all and sees a powerbase that isn't under his direct micromanagement, and maybe, maybe at some point could be turned against him. Maybe the governor won't do that. But they could.

It's Paranoia after all. It isn't rational.

And his reaction to +10 Paranoia is obviously different depending where we are on the scale.

If we're at 20 and go up a net of five, then it's, "This is weird and I don't like it, but I'm sure Chuck has a handle on it." If we're ever at 70 or 80 it will be like, "Hmmm... HMM."
 
I feel like a recap and some direct quotes of the second half of the SC1 Terran campaign might be nice here, because for some of us it's been a long time since we played the game, some are familiar with the game only by osmosis, and exactly what Mengsk did in what circumstances may have become a little vague or distorted:

Mengsk acquires the blueprints for a Transplanar Psionic Waveform Emitter ("Psi Emitter") which broadcasts its psi signal at interstellar distances, and says this is what the Confederates were using and the reason the Zerg showed up in the first place. (Context: The Zerg treat other species as lootboxes to be eaten for powerups, and are particularly looking to assimilate psionic humans.)
Mengsk builds a Psi Emitter of his own, tells Kerrigan to place and activate it on Antiga Prime, and calls down the Zerg Swarm on elements of the Terran Confederacy there for temporary military advantage.
Sarah Kerrigan: "I'm having doubts about this, Arcturus. I just don't think anyone deserves to have the Zerg unleashed on them."
Arcturus Mengsk: "I know you have personal feelings about this, but you can't let your past cloud your judgement. Carry out your orders, lieutenant."
The Protoss show up to burn that tendril of the Swarm, with a bunch of Confederates and much of Antiga Prime as collateral damage.
The PC with most of the named characters (Raynor, Kerrigan, Duke, Mengsk) attacks Tarsonis, capital world of the Confederacy, and secures a beachhead. Mengsk puts down more Psi Emitters to call the Swarm all over Tarsonis.
Sarah Kerrigan: "What? The Confederates on Antiga were bad enough, but now you're going to use the Zerg against an entire planet? This is insane."
James Raynor: "She's right, man. Think this through."
Arcturus Mengsk: "I have thought it through. Believe me. You all have your orders. Carry them out."
Massive amounts of Zerg show up and start attacking Tarsonis. Protoss show up after that.
Adjutant: "I've picked up several dozen Protoss warships descending upon Tarsonis. They seem to be heading on a direct course to the primary Zerg Hive."
Mengsk: "If they engage the Zerg, the Confederates may escape. Commander, send Lieutenant Kerrigan with a strike force to engage the Protoss. Captain Raynor and General Duke will stay behind with the command ship."
Raynor: "First you sell out every person on this world to the Zerg, then you ask us to go up against the Protoss? And you're goin' to send
Kerrigan down there with no backup?"
Mengsk: "I have absolute confidence in Kerrigan's ability to hold off the Protoss."
Kerrigan's strike force (played by you) engages the Protoss in a special mission where you must not destroy the Zerg on the map, despite the fact that they attack you. This culminates in the Zerg unleashing mass attacks everywhere. Kerrigan calls for evac. Mengsk denies the evac, orders the fleet to disengage and avoid contact with the Zerg. With Tarsonis overrun, the Confederacy is broken, and Mengsk calls a meeting.
Mengsk: "Gentlemen, you've done very well, but remember that we've still got a job to do. The seeds of a new Empire have been sown, and if we hope to reap-"
Raynor: "Aw, to hell with you!"
Arcturus Mengsk: "You're making a terrible mistake. Don't even think to cross me. I've sacrificed too much to let this fall apart."
Raynor: "You mean like you sacrificed Kerrigan?"
Mengsk: "You'll regret that. You don't seem to realize my situation here. I will not be stopped. Not by you, or the Confederates, or the Protoss or anyone! I will rule this sector or see it burnt to ashes around me. If you try to get in my-"
Mengsk then disappears from speaker, suggesting either Raynor or the PC muted him. Part of the SC2 Terran plot involves discrediting Mengsk by digging up and broadcasting a recording of that last meeting. "I will rule this sector or see it burnt to ashes around me."
 
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Gotcha and understood. Like its very easy for me to say "I want both" when I haven't done the actual math to make sure that we have the resources and the dice to safely allow both. Because I am all for us ONLY doing those actions that could increase Paranoia if we give it the proper dice to offset Paranoia.

On which is more important to me, hmm, that's hard to answer. I think the import-export business is beneficial with us getting more money, and that's good, but the contact with Starke is useful when it comes to making contacts - and that is important.

But yeah, no matter what, I will always want us to put enough dice to as easily as possible offset Paranoia gain.
I've actually taken a fresh look at the problem and I think I have figured out a way to increase the odds of dodging all Paranoia to 75.51%. The trick is to spend 3 dice on Starke, then two on Vardona. That leaves 5F spare, although it would cost a free die. Whether or not it's a good idea, on the other hand, is a separate issue.

I'm not sure what you mean about contacting Stark being useful for making contacts? I don't think knowing Stark will reduce DCs or unlock any new contacts aside from Valerian. If anything, being chummy with Stark will make things harder in that area.

As for VIE, I think you might be misunderstanding how it works. This isn't a company that will give us an income. It's a phony company with no real business. It actually will cost us 5F per turn. The reason we're buying it is because it is a very good fake, with years of history. The only way it can save us money is if you equate dice savings with resource savings, which I personally find somewhat iffy.

Honestly though, I suspect that any discussion about personal actions is premature at this point. We don't even know what the budget will be next turn, and we have a good chance of unlocking new Raynor's Raiders actions. If we have plenty of F, then die increasing actions should be prioritized. If the budget stays constant, then we really need to focus on the cheapest project's possible.

What I do know is that I rather want to get some group to 5/20, since that seems like a good place for a breakpoint. I'd do Legalizing if we can spare the Paranoia, but that seems rather unlikely at the moment. Otherwise I'm just hoping that we will have other options to reach that.
 
I've actually taken a fresh look at the problem and I think I have figured out a way to increase the odds of dodging all Paranoia to 75.51%. The trick is to spend 3 dice on Starke, then two on Vardona. That leaves 5F spare, although it would cost a free die. Whether or not it's a good idea, on the other hand, is a separate issue.

tbh if we're comfortable with spending two dice on VIE I'd rather do 2 dice on Workers Aid and 3 dice on VIE - higher odds of success for both and greater longterm benefits.
 
tbh if we're comfortable with spending two dice on VIE I'd rather do 2 dice on Workers Aid and 3 dice on VIE - higher odds of success for both and greater longterm benefits.
Unfortunately, that won't work with our current budget. That's 65F worth of spending when our current income is only 40F and our stockpile is 10F.

Anyways, I don't think the long term benefits are worth it in this case. Worker's Aid is a good project, but doing it and VIE at the same time is far from ideal. With our stockpile almost depleted, no projects that we know will gain us F, and far too many that will have ongoing costs, funding all four dice through 2507 will be difficult at 40F per turn.

Sure, we have a good chance to raise our personal income at the next poker game, but raising it enough to fund six personal dice is going to be a rather tall order, especially since both dice-increasing options have ongoing costs. We'll have plenty of other stuff we want, and limited Paranoia to do them all. Five might be doable though. I'd much rather do VIE and one of the many other attractive options, say CAPP if we want to stick to doing a Union action, than VIE and Worker's Aid.
 
I'm not a fan of VIE right now. We have no way to increase F.

Right now an income of 40 and 4 dice means we break even if all 4 dice are spent on 10F projects. Every die on a 5 F project means we build up more F to spend.

With VIE the math changes; 35 income and 5 dice means just to break even we need 3 dice on 5F projects and only 2 on 10 F.

Maybe it'd be good to take once our F income increases, but right now I don't think any of the options that reduce our income are worth it. It's just too damaging to our action economy.
 
So a random comment and a VIC comment

Random comment.

In StarCraft both the Terrand Confederacy and the Terran Dominion take in prisoners, retrain them, and then use them in military. Imagine if the Treasury version of that is to take in people who didn't pay their taxes, retrain them, and then use them in TRUST. "Even you can be reformed! Pay your Taxes. Join TRUST"

VIC comment

As for VIE, I think you might be misunderstanding how it works. This isn't a company that will give us an income. It's a phony company with no real business. It actually will cost us 5F per turn. The reason we're buying it is because it is a very good fake, with years of history. The only way it can save us money is if you equate dice savings with resource savings, which I personally find somewhat iffy.

So the way I see this is that we are taking a real organization that does real things and using it to basically make our economic activities 'real' in a way that shell companies with no substance can't. In a way its money laundering but its the equivalent of actually having a real laundromat or restaurant. Its not really a money making enterprise in terms of what we want to ue it for, but it is money making in terms of us being able to use it in a way that looks legitimate and will stand up to scrutiny.

It lets us do more (the added dice) and it lets us do it easier (the lower DC). It also probably will open certain new options, which I hope could allow us to make it an actual true corp - like imagine with some tweaking it can become economically viable, that would be nifty.

But yeah the benefit is more dice and lowered DCs and that is useful.

It does make a good point though - none of our current available Personal actions increase Funding. I think that this would open a path that would allow us to increase it. Though this is more me seeing the narrative connection rather than me having any sort of WOG to back the statement up.

----

I'm not sure what you mean about contacting Stark being useful for making contacts? I don't think knowing Stark will reduce DCs or unlock any new contacts aside from Valerian. If anything, being chummy with Stark will make things harder in that area.

It says it in the description :

[] Vardona: Have a Talk with Director Starke
...
(Unlocks security-related Personal projects upon completion)

I read this as a bit broader than simply 'talking about Valerian".
 
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I'm not a fan of VIE right now. We have no way to increase F.

Right now an income of 40 and 4 dice means we break even if all 4 dice are spent on 10F projects. Every die on a 5 F project means we build up more F to spend.

With VIE the math changes; 35 income and 5 dice means just to break even we need 3 dice on 5F projects and only 2 on 10 F.

Maybe it'd be good to take once our F income increases, but right now I don't think any of the options that reduce our income are worth it. It's just too damaging to our action economy.

My perspective is that we'll just have to increase our Personal Budget. Maybe make it a percentage of our total Budget if that increases overall at the year-end budget meeting. I'd be willing to double it from 25 to 50 if we can get a comfortable increase to, say, the overall budget pie.

To clarify, the entire Quarterly budget of the Dominion when the game started was 500, plus our corrupt ties and etc, but that's ours, not the overall budget. It increased in two quarters of mixed results to 600 per quarter. We've had a year of reconstructing things, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that it might increase to 800 a quarter, which means 50% would be 400.

In such a case, 50 or 55% should give us room to increase our Personal budget and have it be lost in the other budget increases... maybe? We'll see!
 
My perspective is that we'll just have to increase our Personal Budget. Maybe make it a percentage of our total Budget if that increases overall at the year-end budget meeting. I'd be willing to double it from 25 to 50 if we can get a comfortable increase to, say, the overall budget pie.

To clarify, the entire Quarterly budget of the Dominion when the game started was 500, plus our corrupt ties and etc, but that's ours, not the overall budget. It increased in two quarters of mixed results to 600 per quarter. We've had a year of reconstructing things, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that it might increase to 800 a quarter, which means 50% would be 400.

In such a case, 50 or 55% should give us room to increase our Personal budget and have it be lost in the other budget increases... maybe? We'll see!

But also of course, it could give us room to cut back to 40% and milk the extra Leverage it can give us for all its worth.
 
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