I would still say Nuuk because we would want more cap goods during the war for stuff like the ground armor factories and whatever else we rollout so doing HIS first means we have to start from the slow part of Nuuk still
I'd also like to do Nuuk over Tokyo for the former's much greater efficiency, but should we or should we not do the HIS fist? Can we count on having the time before the next war to break out? And meanwhile, building Tokyo makes North Boston much less of a critical target, just as the HIS are distributed between various BZs. Nuuk would be a critical target in a single location, and after its fourth phase even more of our global industry will depend on it than we depend on North Boston. It might be best to do Nuuk after doing HIS and three phases of Tokyo on a strategic level, even if it means having 4 less CG to use in the next year.
 
I think we really need to get the factory refits done ASAP and the heavy industrial sectors are the path to that. The factory refits are how we lay in the significant stockpiles needed to sustain a major war rather than the usual skirmishing, and sure the new toys are cool but we're not going to run out of uses for all the old hardware for a good long while yet. Plus the sooner we get that extra 1d2 military dice the more turns it has to compound over, we really need to just bang the project out while there's still breathing room.
 
Hmm. If we do Nuuk, the first two phases cost almost the same as HIS, 480 vs 500. It only gives 4 Capital Goods, but if we want to split those 4 between non-Wartime Factory projects, then we could go straight for Nuuk, then do the Wartime Factory after Phase 3 finishes.

I guess it depends on how long we thing we have before the next war breaks out. If we think we have over 4 quarters, we could do Nuuk first. If we think we might need those refits ASAP, we should do HIS first. And meanwhile Tokyo gives less CG, but costs less per die and less progress.
Hmm.

It might be possible to one-turn HIS with four free dice, but for all intents and purposes we can expect to finish it in Q2 2059 for +8 CG, and start Wartime Factory Refits in Q3.

Vs If we do Nuuk 1 and 2, then CCF 3, then Nuuk 3, we finish in Q2 2059 for +4 CG, and the remaining +16 in Q1 2060. And start Refits in Q2 2060.

Is it worth to delay Wartime Factory Refits three quarters for +12 CG? Eh, maybe.

We do have Spider Cotton, Reykjavik and Bergen to whet our appetites in the meantime. That could go either way, but the vulnerability of Boston does tip me towards HIS & Tokyo first, even though that's the least efficient combined CG lineup.

Also, @TripleTango there's no rule on SV against double-posting. You're allowed to do it as long as the second post is something substantial and not spam.
Oh, good to know.
 
Hmmm...
While the benefits of Phase 3 Nuuk are great, and we are going to want lots of Capitol Goods. I think we should do the HIS first.
We have a need for Capitol Goods now, and HIS will give us a 8 point buffer to use before Nuuk spools up. Whereas, Nuuk Phase 3 will take twice as many dice to achieve.
 
My point is that we don't need to be at Parity with NOD. We're playing Defence. The larger our territory the less we get to play Panzer Ace. We need more - not neccessarily better - highly mobile units that can perform rapid redeployment and defence in depth, in sophisticated fast combined arms tactics on the Operational Level. NOD can support mass wave tactics of Cultists, supported by High-Tech Units that they can recover because they're on Offence. We don't get the same luxury of recovering equipment if NOD finds a way to make us pull back.

And if it's good enough in a very specific roll then we don't need to replace it soon. There's a reason ubiqitious weapons stay in service even with big upgrades they could've have. It is fine, for now.
I don't think your analysis of the strategic situation is correct. First of all, Nod is moving away from human wave tactics towards more exotic approaches like cybernetically enhanced animals. Second of all, we have much greater capacity to manufacture our high-end equipment, which significantly offsets any issue of battlefield recovery. Third of all, the capacity to go on the strategic offensive is something we have actively pursued and continue to desire, because it's a necessity if we want to be able to terraform Yellow Zones back into Blue Zones and attract refugees that expand our workforce.

Now, on the specific object-level question of the Mammoth, I want to be very clear that the tank was quite good at its role in 2047-50, and still seems to be satisfactory, and as such it is NOT our top priority for upgrades. We are already focusing most of our effort on upgrading parts of the armed forces with proven, longstanding "unsatisfactory" ratings, such as:

1) The Super Orca (the Orca was unsatisfactory in Tib War III and became increasingly so in the postwar era, and now we're about to upgrade it)
2) Naval point defense (the Guardian-class is barely adequate and all our other capital ship classes are greatly inadequate, and this is a known, combat-demonstrated weakness)
3) The artillery (inaccuracy and lack of shell supplies are a known complaint, and we are talking about how to address that)
4) Lack of heavy equipment for ZOCOM (which is overextended due to a lack of firepower and a lack of power-armored Ground Force manpower, both of which we intend to address)
5) The ASAT system (which is heavily reliant on ion cannons, and we just saw the first high-profile incident of a Nod commander pulling an ion cannon deflector out of her hat and laughing off an ion strike; upgrades are in order).

At the same time, we shouldn't just forget that the Mammoth tank could maybe use an upgrade cycle- it's not an immediate priority, but we shouldn't still be sitting around in 2070 thinking "nah, it's fine" until suddenly some Nod commander with the Nod weaponry of 2070 carves through a dozen Mammoths easily because it turns out a 30-year-old tank design is obsolescent big surprise!

We may want to look into getting "Blue Zone Heavy Industrial Sectors" before starting on Nuuk. While not as cost-effective in the long term comparatively, we'll get sizable payoff sooner and their distributed nature will make them a soft counters to any Masterstrokes targeting key industrial and logistic nodes.
This is a very good point.

So will we finish BZ Arcologies next turn?
I'm pretty sure we already finished the current phase this turn. We're just waiting on the Results post. Finishing the next phase is a little beyond us in the immediate future, we have a solid Housing buffer, and we need to do some other Infrastructure stuff anyway.

Hmm.

Oh, Derpmind?

This doesn't seem right. These are supposed to be >300, right?

Anywho. I think the plan Simon's been contemplating was another round of fusion, then full Nuuks press to 3.
It's one of several possibilities I'd considered, but honestly it was more like "finish Fusion Power Phase 3, then do BIG CAPITAL GOODS MOOD for a while." I hadn't really thought things through to the extent of deciding which Capital Goods project(s) I'd be pushing for, because I wanted to rerun an analysis broadly like yours.

Hmm.

It might be possible to one-turn HIS with four free dice...
One-turning such a large project that has no rollover is almost certainly a bad idea.
 
Hmmm...
While the benefits of Phase 3 Nuuk are great, and we are going to want lots of Capitol Goods. I think we should do the HIS first.
We have a need for Capitol Goods now, and HIS will give us a 8 point buffer to use before Nuuk spools up. Whereas, Nuuk Phase 3 will take twice as many dice to achieve.
Not really much of a buffer, since what we'd do with it is dump it all into Refits.

One-turning such a large project that has no rollover is almost certainly a bad idea.
Well, that was more or less my point. We can't expect to start on Refits 3 before Q3 2059 unless we do something really, really stupid.

EDIT:There is a stunt we can pull where we start on Refits in Q2, trusting that HIS will finish that turn. I'd call that stupid, but, eh, necessary risk.
 
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Do we know what specific improvements phase 3+4 refits provide, what they help production of?
 
Not really much of a buffer, since what we'd do with it is dump it all into Refits.
Still achieves it around a turn earlier.
I'm only calling it a buffer, as it it not really guaranteed that we will dump all 8 straight into Refits.
It is possible that something else will come up, and we'll only use half the HIS CGs for Refits, then we'll finish the remaining Refits when Nuuk hits Phase 2.
 
It is NOT our top priority for upgrades.

That's my Point?

The Super Orca is going to be carrying the new Missiles we developed to help the Air Coverage which can help that specific weakness. I said we're upgrading the navy to help close that chink. I started off saying that for front line operations stuff that have been marked like the OCRT should be prioritized over it? Nobody is saying that it is.

I don't think your analysis of the strategic situation is correct. First of all, Nod is moving away from human wave tactics towards more exotic approaches like cybernetically enhanced animals. Second of all, we have much greater capacity to manufacture our high-end equipment, which significantly offsets any issue of battlefield recovery. Third of all, the capacity to go on the strategic offensive is something we have actively pursued and continue to desire, because it's a necessity if we want to be able to terraform Yellow Zones back into Blue Zones and attract refugees that expand our workforce.

First that's a supplemental tactic, they're still throwing bodies at us. Second and Third; as I said Context. We aren't on the Offensive yet. We're saving the big toys until we get to the point where we can go on the Offensive. But we're stretched way too thin. And it's a slow process of refits, you gotta be patient. I'd like to see if we can get the Mammoth Refits out eventually if people want it, hopefully as I said "have it and not need it" until we can support it incase somebody decides to torch our infrastructure, which is what a bunch of plans people have brought up are trying to do.
 
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That's my Point?

The Super Orca is going to be carrying the new Missiles we developed to help the Air Coverage which can help that specific weakness. I said we're upgrading the navy to help close that chink. I started off saying that for front line operations stuff that have been marked like the OCRT should be prioritized over it? Nobody is saying that it is.
I feel like you're flogging a dead horse here. Every time I say "Mammoth is getting old" I get back some variation on "forget about refitting it."

When you lecture me on the need for 'patience' as if I were writing the Mammoth refits into my draft plan for next turn (I didn't, you can check)... Well, I can't tell if you actually disagree with me about the timeframe in which it would make sense to do a Mammoth refit, or whether you're just boldly taking a heroic stand in defense of the (supermajority-popular and accepted by nearly everyone, including me) stance of immediately doing a military project that isn't pressingly required and isn't a Plan commitment.

Can we just drop this?

First that's a supplemental tactic, they're still throwing bodies at us.
We have been watching that transition in real time. If we're planning to fight a future war, we do need to bear in mind our capacity to fight all aspects of that future war.

Phases 3 and 4 are refits to the bulk stuff that GDI wants to replace. Things like Guardians, Predators, Mammoths, and the like.
Or the Orcas?

Hm.

Well, the unfortunate drawback is that we'll be mass-producing a vast quantity of largely mediocre equipment. The good news is, it still is a vast quantity of equipment, and some of it's still pretty good (e.g. the current iteration of the Predator).
 
We should definitely do the improved Orca deployment before the refits then. Most of the other vehicles aren't being replaced anytime soon, but it would be silly to alter the Orca production lines twice in 2-3 turns.
 
When you lecture me on the need for 'patience' as if I were writing the Mammoth refits into my draft plan for next turn (I didn't, you can check)... Well, I can't tell if you actually disagree with me about the timeframe in which it would make sense to do a Mammoth refit, or whether you're just boldly taking a heroic stand in defense of the (supermajority-popular and accepted by nearly everyone, including me) stance of immediately doing a military project that isn't pressingly required and isn't a Plan commitment.

Can we just drop this?

I initially meant Hold Off the refit since we were in a defensive posture because people were worried that our Resources were being being protected by a thinned Zocom and wanted to build up the Economy to push Military later. You literally kept saying I wanted to do it. You said a bunch of posts ago when you said you weren't pushing for it, and that it might've looked that way. I apologized if I made it look like you were (check it, it's in bold) and I thought we were going to drop it?

Yes. I'm completely fine with dropping it.
 
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Well, the unfortunate drawback is that we'll be mass-producing a vast quantity of largely mediocre equipment. The good news is, it still is a vast quantity of equipment, and some of it's still pretty good (e.g. the current iteration of the Predator).
Best is the enemy of good and all that. I'd rather have enough mediocre tanks now and Paladins later than not enough Paladins now and no tanks later.
 
Of course, the Army already thinks it has enough tanks for now, so it'd rather shore up Consumables and get Zone Armor into wider circulation first.
Exactly this, and why I'd support getting things like Zone armor or more Shell plants over more refits. Because it's giving the Military what they're telling us they want over what many voters apparently think they should get, against the more expert opinions of the Military itself, and several branches of them even.

At least if there was some sort of schedule to doing it or reasons to delay it further, such as getting more Johannesburg Myomer Macrospinner phases for reducing Zone armor costs, I'd understand somewhat. But there has been no indication of such plans in discussion, so I'm assuming it's not a cost reduction issue at all.

At this point, I wonder if there is any point to arguing about prioritizing Zone armor at all.
 
I'm questioning why Wartime Refits don't include Shell Production. I don't think it's that hard to imclude it in the production que along side the vehicle production. That way we don't even have to debate this.
 
At this point, I wonder if there is any point to arguing about prioritizing Zone armor at all.
All LCI dice for the next year are likely going on Macrospinners.
And we have more than enough critical projects that need to get done already.
That said, those projects should be crunched through in about 4 quarters. So I wouldn't be surprised if we start building more Zone Armor Factories next year.
 
Ah shit. Just did the math and we need a minimum of 870 Resources per Turn for a complete Philadelphia II in the long run. That's 160 more Resource income we need to do by the end of next year.
 
I'm questioning why Wartime Refits don't include Shell Production. I don't think it's that hard to imclude it in the production que along side the vehicle production. That way we don't even have to debate this.
It's because Wartime Refits is about refitting all the facilities that GDI crash-built during the 3rd Tiberium War, when they were in a state of damn the efficiency, we need this out now. And the stuff we built ourselves when in a Cap Goods crisis, but mostly the former.

And at that time, GDI just didn't have a major focus on artillery (the only example otherwise being the Juggernaut.) That was a post-war thing that started as a cheap stopgap because the Treasury didn't have the money to spend on anything more expensive, then massively expanded because GDI realized that holy crap, this is really useful and we need a lot more of it.

So Wartime Refits doesn't really include shell production because there's not that many wartime shell plants to refit. Or at least not many in comparison to what's needed for the massively expanded artillery arm. The shell plants are specifically for artillery shells rather than anything else.
 
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Exactly this, and why I'd support getting things like Zone armor or more Shell plants over more refits.
The war factory refits do have a few specific advantages:

1) They DO provide us with vast supplies of military equipment, which can be good to have. In case of a war emergency where we suddenly needed to supply a force that's maintaining a much higher operational tempo, that's good. And high operational tempo can be very advantageous.

2) The way they streamline our operations will concretely give us one or two extra Military dice, which means we can objectively do more that benefits the military. Especially stuff like consumables production, which is Dice-limited more than it's Resource-limited. We can do more every turn.

3) They don't actually consume that many Military dice that could go elsewhere. We could finish off the entire remaining set of refits with no more Military dice expenditure than is required to do a single Zone Armor factory. And while don't get me wrong, the Ground Forces really want their Zone Armor, the advantages to them of having one such factory more or less wouldn't necessarily outweigh the entire remaining production boost from Phases 3 and 4 of the war factory refits.

The war factory refits aren't really wasteful for the military. The thing they really burn, the problematic aspect, is the Capital Goods consumption. We could do a loooot of vein mining with the +8 Capital Goods it'd take to clear the remaining phases of the project.

At this point, I wonder if there is any point to arguing about prioritizing Zone armor at all.
That's because you usually don't read the room very well.

Look, each Zone Armor factory is an average of about 3-4 Military dice, at 20 R/die, with a cost of -2 Labor, -4 Energy, and -1 Capital Goods.

Just activating 20 R/die projects was burdensome for us until, more or less, now, because of the very same low income issues you normally pay so much attention to. The Capital Goods cost is substantial and the Energy cost is painful.

We completed Phase 2 of the war factory refits (which, notably, accelerated Zone Armor production) for one die, 20 R, and -3 Capital Goods. Diverting that one die to a Zone Armor factory would have accomplished nothing, and to complete three such factories (to use up the same amount of Capital Goods) would likely cost around ten dice, 200 R, and -12 Energy which would in turn mean building a whole new tranche of dedicated fusion reactors.

The Zone Armor factories are a project on the same scale as the Governor shipyards; if anything they are worse because of the higher Energy requirements. Finishing the Governor yards was a gigantic two-year commitment that consumed constant attention from us through half of an entire Plan. It is not something you start before you are ready.

Now don't get me wrong, I'd like to do a single factory soon just to start the process of deploying power armor to the frontline forces! But squeezing that in when we have so many programs with global military impact (like the Super Orca project) that cost the same or less as even a single factory... It's a tough thing to finance in a hurry.

Stop assuming you're the smartest man in the room and the only one who can see the importance of whatever you happen to think is top priority.
 
Karachi is, realistically, a medium to long term project. Even optimistically we're not getting it done until 2059Q3-4, and it'd be... extremely bold... to start work on Karachi now when we don't have a good handle on how the upcoming Nod offensives will look. In the shorter term, the sonic cannons will help ZOCOM a bit. A Ground Forces power armor factory is a logical next step, but I don't think we can do it right away unless we ignore at least one of the following:

1) Super Orcas
2) Naval point defense
3) Tube artillery rollout
4) Consumables expansion
5) Space defense (orbital lasers, ASAT 4, OSRCT 1)

Each of those is a project likely to consume 3-5 dice in its own right, at least, and in some cases much more. So when you add it all together we're going to be very busy bees in the Military category for the next three turns or so before we can get a handle on all of that.
Now? Certainly not. My time frame is a year from now.
Of your list, I do expect Orbital Lasers to go away for a while as SpaceFor assimilate the implications of cracking open Nod Modern Lasers.
What would the these new factories replacing the old gear cost? Are we just retrofitting or making new industries wholesale? I'd hope they'd just be a one turn retro but more likely 2-3.

Also what exactly is our mark 3-4 Mammoths built to defeat exactly? New Avatar class walkers? NOD doesn't seem to have anything that warrants their use. Even more so with the proposed Paladin upcoming.
Mammoths exist to be driven into the general direction of the enemy and wait for the Nod forces to either run away or be dead. Mammoth spam is a canonical strategy GDI employs for certain engagements.
What Bot said.

The Mammoth is GDI saying "Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face."
IIRC game Mammoths can 2v1 Epics for roughly the same production cost and much less setup cost, and murder lighter vehicles with impunity. They're slow for game balance purposes, but they're still terrifying slabs of armor-clad death on treads.

The Mammoth is a breakthrough tank, pure and simple. It's got two jobs. One, being a big fuckoff pile of armor and guns you aim at the enemies most fortified positions and proceed to reduce them to rubble. The second involves it being a big fuckoff pile of armor and guns you park in front of your base when the enemy is pressing you to the wall and dare them to try their luck.

It's not really mobile enough for a running battle but it can be used in them if you get lucky or position them right. Slow moving advances are alright as well but you've usually got better options like artillery or airstrikes for those.
"Dread it, run from it, it arrives just the same."
No GDI armored unit is ever going to keep up with a Nod unit optimized for speed;that is just a lost cause.Deathball your Mammoths with artillery if the enemy tries to play run and gun games.

Or call in Pitbulls Orcas and Hammerheads.
Trying to get rid of the mammoths with out a suitable replacement of some kind will make a lot of people mad since it's so iconic it's one of the big images of gdi?
Its not just iconic, its also cost effective.
GDI went from the first Mammoth to a heavy walker, and then back to the classic four tread superheavy tanks because it was the best choice available to their techbase. So its not like GDI has not abandoned stuff before.

Talking about the next Mammoth Block Development is rather premature considering that we haven't done the Mastodon Development, which is both Part of our Requirements for this Plan, and will almost definitely serve as a test bed for the same technologies that will be eventually included in all GDI superheavy vehicles.
There is unlikely to be much if any overlap in the technologies for a heavy walker and a superheavy tank.
What you're likely to see IMO is stuff at that level scaling down to light walkers and power armor.

That said, Mastodon RnD and deployment should be cheap and easy, because they should be even fewer than ZOCOM's two corps or so of combat troops iirc. I'd be surprised if they need more than one factory.
2) The Mammoth Mark Three is a niche unit. You aren't going to let a thing this big into a battlespace unsupported by mass anti-aircraft weaponry. A Tank too harsh to use is a Tank too harsh to lose.
Niche unit?
The Mammoth Three has been the central pillar of GDI armored doctrine for two decades now; its a mass producible superheavy tank that will go toe to toe with any other superheavy in anyone's arsenal, obliterate lighter vehicles, and is GDI Ground Forces's answer to enemy Epics.

Niche unit.
Thats an interesting interpretation.
My point is that we don't need to be at Parity with NOD. We're playing Defence. The larger our territory the less we get to play Panzer Ace. We need more - not neccessarily better - highly mobile units that can perform rapid redeployment and defence in depth, in sophisticated fast combined arms tactics on the Operational Level. NOD can support mass wave tactics of Cultists, supported by High-Tech Units that they can recover because they're on Offence. We don't get the same luxury of recovering equipment if NOD finds a way to make us pull back.

And if it's good enough in a very specific roll then we don't need to replace it soon. There's a reason ubiqitious weapons stay in service even with big upgrades they could've have. It is fine, for now.
1)We are not playing Defense anymore.
We've played strategic defense for three wars; we've won all three, but it has generally resulted in trashed infrastructure, traumatized citizens and a shrinking share of habitable surface area and population. We're doing the other thing.

2) We have access to less population than Nod.

We are also more doctrinally sensitive to military casualties, and invest on the average more in raising and training our soldiers. That means we invest in better protected equipment to preserve the lives of our soldiers in the field, because pragmatically speaking even a soldier thats too injured to go back into service can be fixed up enough to be economically productive.

3)We dont need parity, we require overmatch.

1) Kind of? We're adapting combat mechanics to a narrative game. It's not going to be a perfect 1-1.
2) The argument is that it has insufficent anti-air capabilites, which is a part of the Tanks Kit I think is fine for now which can be offset with our new Missile Tech for our Fighters and Vehicles (You rush with Mammoth Tanks in Multiplayer?? You only do that when you have a huge Refinery Lead as they're considered incredibly Ineffective for how much they cost), and I conceeded to a point made earlier that it was a breakthrough unit, which is a niche. Not that not that it has no AA? I don't understand how you got to this conclusion?
Multiplayer is a moving target, because they keep rebalancing for competitiveness.
But yes, in the early days, Mammoth Tank AA rockets were often sufficient to ward off harassment by Venoms.

At the same time, we shouldn't just forget that the Mammoth tank could maybe use an upgrade cycle- it's not an immediate priority, but we shouldn't still be sitting around in 2070 thinking "nah, it's fine" until suddenly some Nod commander with the Nod weaponry of 2070 carves through a dozen Mammoths easily because it turns out a 30-year-old tank design is obsolescent big surpris
To be fair, at this point a Mammoth IV would be mostly tinkering around the edges; the only applicable introduction to GDI's techbase at the moment is Shimmershields, and that hasnt even processed yet. We havent done Railgun Munitions.
Laser PD is nice, but Mammoths are enveloped in slabs of inert matter for a reason. URLS fits into their missile launchers.

Lets see if anyone manages to shrink reactors small enough to fit in one in the next couple years before revisiting the topic.

Ah shit. Just did the math and we need a minimum of 870 Resources per Turn for a complete Philadelphia II in the long run. That's 160 more Resource income we need to do by the end of next year.
No we dont.
Do your math again. At 20R/die, a +10 Orbital bonus and ~1800 points to complete the remainder of Phase 4 plus Phase 5, we need around 30 Orbital die and 600R to finish the Philadelphia station, assuming average rolls.

Not sure where you are getting 870R per turn from.
 
Here's my 2 cents on the situation: We have too many new technology projects coming down the pipeline-especially weapons, but also repulsors, Shimmer Shields, and potentially other defensive systems. We need to claw our way out of Tech-dev hell and get these projects field ready before we start deploying new designs. In the meantime, we've got plenty of supply issues to sort out for our consumables.
 
No we dont.
Do your math again. At 20R/die, a +10 Orbital bonus and ~1800 points to complete the remainder of Phase 4 plus Phase 5, we need around 30 Orbital die and 600R to finish the Philadelphia station, assuming average rolls.

Not sure where you are getting 870R per turn from.

Let me rephrase as I am bilingual in Serbian and English and in this case I phrased it in Serbian while writing in English. Apologies for that. We will need 870 Resources per Turn minimum in the long run after Philadelphia II is complete to use all the Dice we get from it each turn.
 
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