KnightDisciple
Love God. Do Right. Fear No Man.
- Location
- Midwest, USA
[X] Plan Budget Crunch (Diversified)
Attempting to Fulfill the Plan: GDI Edition
F0lkL0re
Officially not an Inquisitor
- Location
- Shetland
@Ithillid I'm probably being a bit dumb but what does the shuttle part of Expand Orbital Communications Network and Orbital Cleanup mean?
It's no more of a black box then the North Boston Chip Fabricator was and could in fact be slightly cheaper since it benefits from the progress reduction granted by the New Moscow Robotics Works.
That and maybe because unlike tib harvesting orbital clean up only gives us a one time amount of resources per phase.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Uh... yes? That's not the problem.
"Black box" is an engineering term for a system that is, importantly, opaque. You don't understand what goes on inside it, and can only examine its inputs and outputs.
The Tokyo Fabricator is, for purposes of my analysis, a black box. Because while I know in broad narrative terms what it's going to do, and in fact approve of doing the project, I can't calculate what it's going to do. Because I don't know the exact stage costs and outputs. By contrast, the North Boston fabricator was such a black box, but now is not, because by completing the stages we were able to pry up the lid and have a look at the internals.
...
So when I'm compiling a gigantic lookup table of Consumer Goods projects reckoned by their costs and outputs, the Tokyo fabricator presents something of a problem for me. Unless @Ithillid is prepared to say "yes, the Tokyo plant will have almost exactly the same stats as the North Boston plant, only with the Consumer and Capital Goods outputs reversed," then I can't actually crunch those numbers because I don't have them.
This is not a criticism of the Tokyo fabricator, which I in fact strongly approve of. Not least because right now far too much of our ability to survive as an industrial economy hinges on the Boston fabricator, which is hardly immune to Nod action if they are truly motivated to screw us over.
It's not that I disapprove of the project, it's that I cannot in any honesty claim to know its exact costs and rewards.
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I think it's literally the inverse of Boston but with slightly lower progress costs because we have actual modern construction equipment again. Same per-die cost, and where e.g. Boston (Stage 3) gave 8 points of capital goods and 4 points of consumer goods, Tokyo will give 8 points of consumer goods and 4 points of capital goods. Assuming it follows the same pattern of doubling progress required per stage it would be Stage 1 = 125 points, Stage 2 = 250, Stage 3 = 500
Edit: Beaten by the QM's edit, didn't see that
It only really breaks even, if we have good luck it gives us a slight one-time payment beyond what it cost to do but it's not remotely as useful for actually sustaining growth as surface Tib mining. That 20-30 Resources it grants isn't recurring income it's a single lump sum.
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F0lkL0re
Officially not an Inquisitor
- Location
- Shetland
Er Simon look here:
Ithillid pretty much answered your complaint so just look at the previous stages of North Boston Chip Fabricator as a guide for the rewards for each phase and just double the progress needed to complete each phase.
So since Tokyo Chip Fabricator (Phase 1) needs 125 progress to complete phase 2 will need 250 and phase 3 will need 500 with the rewards being 0 for phase 1, 2 consumer goods for phase 2 and 8 consumer goods + 4 capital goods for phase 3.
Civil Clothing Factories are +++Consumer Goods, which is +4, not +2.
Other comments on this: we'll want to keep above even on Capital Goods, which Saarland will get us to, so we'll want something to compensate for the YZ LIS cost: probably the Rolling Stock project because of the added +2 Logistics, which is going to be short due to glacier mining. But we'll be needing to push the next +Energy project soon, so HI dice are going to be at a premium.
- Location
- Outside the Box
- Pronouns
- She/Her
*shrug* Just thought it'd save you a little work.
Probability array updated, and in the theadmarked post too. (P.S. Would you believe I haven't paid much attention to anyone's plans yet? lol)
The threadmarked one still has the old numbers of dice, though. Tiberium should be at 4 dice, not 6.
- Location
- nz
This would make Tokyo inferior to Boston I think. Capital goods are more expensive in pretty much all metrics than consumer goods.
In which case the number of consumer goods will likely be higher or a smaller reduction in cap goods. But in terms of costs of building Tokyo, yeah just slightly less progress required and same dice costs.
Yeah once we put in like 20R to prime the pump it should be basically self-sustaining (plus or minus a couple bucks on any specific stage due to luck but on average). We can't really afford it this turn but next turn, unless we get incredibly unlucky with the Tib mining projects and income rolls, we can probably afford to toss space those starter 20R and let it run.
I went back and looked at the old phases of Boston, to make some rough determinations about Tokyo. Based on that we can expect the following:
Phase 1: nothing
Phase 2: 2 consumer goods.
Phase 3: 8 consumer goods, 4 capital goods, -4 power.
Phase 4: 16 consumer goods, 8 capital goods, -4 power.
Taking the formulas Simon uses, that gives us about... 17 resources per goods, at phase 4, and 72 progress per goods to reach that point. It also takes 30 dice to complete that so uh, put a pin in it for later, but probably not an immediate priority.
Phase 1: nothing
Phase 2: 2 consumer goods.
Phase 3: 8 consumer goods, 4 capital goods, -4 power.
Phase 4: 16 consumer goods, 8 capital goods, -4 power.
Taking the formulas Simon uses, that gives us about... 17 resources per goods, at phase 4, and 72 progress per goods to reach that point. It also takes 30 dice to complete that so uh, put a pin in it for later, but probably not an immediate priority.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
There's only so much garbage in space for us to collect, so a permanent income trickle would be... infeasible.
I'll go back and check out the QM's edit later...
Thank you. Got that right in the lookup table, misremembered in the recommendations.
All very true. It's just that all the plans for getting even +24 or so Capital Goods in a reasonably timely, low-resource manner involve spending at least some Capital Goods and quite a bit of Energy.
The suggestion was appreciated; the details of my personal workflow suggested a different approach, but I didn't mean to snub your offer. Apologies if it felt that way.
Maybe. It all comes down to details. Bearing in mind that we're utterly committed to producing a large quantity of consumer goods quickly in this plan, it may be considerably more efficient to build a factory that produces (let us say) +8 capital goods and +16 consumer goods than to build an equally expensive factory that produces +16 capital goods and +8 consumer goods, then have to spend 2-4 of those capital goods completing an entirely separate project to get the other +8 consumer goods afterwards.
Because in the former strategy we expend less time, dice, and resources on the overall project (in exchange for a slightly smaller capital goods surplus at the end, which we can make up with other different projects).
Mechanically, this is reflected in us doing industrial grants that generate an extra +1 Consumer Goods per turn.
Note that this doesn't mean "private industry is producing a fixed stream of goods per turn," it means "the rate at which the private sector is producing goods is increasing by +1 unit/turn, every turn." It's an accelerating process, very much as you describe.
- Location
- Outside the Box
- Pronouns
- She/Her
On that topic, North Boston Phase 4 costs 1,136 progress, while Tokyo Phases 1, 2, and 3 together costs 825 progress. So about 18 dice vs 13 dice (on average). And while the former will give 8 Consumer Goods, the latter will give 10 Consumer Goods total. ~2.25 dice per Goods for Boston 4 vs. ~1.3 dice per Goods for Tokyo 3.
- Location
- New York
Shouldn't it be 60 PS as we spent 10 PS during reallocation to get a 30 percent budget and did not take any PS gaining options in Plan Supermajority?
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Attempting to Fulfill the Plan: GDI Edition
Lead the Global Defense Initiative into the future after the Third Tiberium War.
forums.sufficientvelocity.com
Based on your projections, I included all of that in the table- specifically, I included "Tokyo (to stage X)" entries for Stages 2, 3, and 4, based on Crazycryo's cost projections and your output projections. Obviously these are only projections, and I try to label them clearly as such.
All true.
On the other hand, the reason to complete North Boston Phase 4 isn't for the consumer goods output. It's for the capital goods output we need to build all the OTHER factories we promised to build in the Plan, including a host of military factories and a considerable number of consumer goods factories.
The Stage 4 Tokyo plant is already teetering on the line of what it makes sense for us to build specifically for the sake of hitting consumer goods targets, and is pushed over that line mainly by the prospect of all the Cool Shit we can do with the capital goods output of the same facility.
Stage 4 of North Boston is simply not something we build for consumer goods alone; the consumer goods are a pleasant side effect of getting a large capital goods surplus out of the megaproject.
Yep, because Nod is still able to pull off their operational strikes that will force a success on a key target/goal. We have not buffed the military enough to prevent that yet.
I don't think we're ever going to build up the military enough to stop Nod from being able to blow up a specific high value target or two if they really want to. Stopping their masterstroke never works, you just gotta have more redundant high value targets and structural flexibility than they can blow up. I'm pretty sure Boston's not our only chip foundry on the planet, there's probably multiple others of similar size or larger that already existed at the start of the game, but yet another center for even more redundancy never hurts.
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- Location
- The Underdark
That is a mechanic that I was not happy with the implementation of, and am reworking. So I cut the project to lead to it. You are probably going to see a reworked version of it in Q2.
Looking at the plans Plan Tiberium and Transportation is the only one that goes for 3 glacier mining dice and has a 29% of getting two stages off done in one turn giving us 80-120R plus the income from Red Zone Tiberium Harvesting 10-20R. This means it also has the highest odds of completing one phase even on very bad rolls.