An Extra Primarch

ilbgar123 · Feb 6, 2020

Xela63 said:
Wait, does Serras actually have Pioneer of the Stars? If so, that would be terrifying indeed, considering Drake, another Servant who has PotS, nabbed the Holy Grail in Okeanos from Poseidon, as far as I'm aware. So there could indeed be some bullshit things that Serras can do, though by herself she will still represent no serious threat. But she will be a reasonably big force multiplier. Though it's debatable if her future sight works as well as normally, considering not even Caster Gilgamesh had foreseen everything and his NP is to be omniscient.

That's what we've been arguing this whole time. She's a civilization builder, not a fighter. Give her ten years, and Magi will be toting laser guns around and adamntium and ceramite will be things, because tech doesn't have the 'The more people know it, the weaker it gets.' problem non-True Magic has(pretty much the opposite really), and the end of the world can be very encouraging towards innovation, because the people who don't tend to die. Her intellect makes non-geniuses look like stupid children, as all Primarch intellects do. These guys are genetically and psychically engineered to the point they could outthink a Man of Stone outside their field of expertise. Though it would be pretty close if, say, Vulkan tried to out-Medicine a Medical Man of Stone. The problem with Men of Iron is that they can change their chassis to outmatch you, sort of like the Flood and their Keyminds/Gravemind.

Slayer 10321 · Feb 6, 2020

ilbgar123 said:
That's what we've been arguing this whole time. She's a civilization builder, not a fighter. Give her ten years, and Magi will be toting laser guns around and adamntium and ceramite will be things, because tech doesn't have the 'The more people know it, the weaker it gets.' problem non-True Magic has(pretty much the opposite really), and the end of the world can be very encouraging towards innovation, because the people who don't tend to die. Her intellect makes non-geniuses look like stupid children, as all Primarch intellects do.

This makes me want a Dresden Files crossover so badly! Or maybe a Destiny cossover. Both (possibly at the same time)?

I just want to see the terror in the faces of the supernaturals when they see Humanity gain the ability en-mass to beat their faces in when threatened. A baseline individual human is irrelevant currently in both Destiny and Dresden Files. Imagine what happens when that human is toting magitech/clarketech armour and weapons plus the fact that he and his buddies outnumber their enemies 10 or 100 to 1?

Xela63 · Feb 6, 2020

ilbgar123 said:
That's what we've been arguing this whole time. She's a civilization builder, not a fighter. Give her ten years, and Magi will be toting laser guns around and adamntium and ceramite will be things, because tech doesn't have the 'The more people know it, the weaker it gets.' problem non-True Magic has(pretty much the opposite really), and the end of the world can be very encouraging towards innovation, because the people who don't tend to die. Her intellect makes non-geniuses look like stupid children, as all Primarch intellects do. These guys are genetically and psychically engineered to the point they could outthink a Man of Stone outside their field of expertise. Though it would be pretty close if, say, Vulkan tried to out-Medicine a Medical Man of Stone. The problem with Men of Iron is that they can change their chassis to outmatch you, sort of like the Flood and their Keyminds/Gravemind.

Problem is, the more you innovate, the more True Magic dies. For example, once humans master time travel, The Fifth Magic will stop being a Magic and degrade into a Magecraft, same for every other Magic too.

Though I'd like to see a discussion between her and Da Vinci, since she would understand everything Serras would say (comes as part of her legend).

And if you innovate too fast, the Quantum Timelock comes calling.

ilbgar123 · Feb 6, 2020

Xela63 said:
Problem is, the more you innovate, the more True Magic dies. For example, once humans master time travel, The Fifth Magic will stop being a Magic and degrade into a Magecraft, same for every other Magic too.

Though I'd like to see a discussion between her and Da Vinci, since she would understand everything Serras would say (comes as part of her legend).

Yes, Flight was a True Magic once, until planes became a thing and in theory any idiot could fly, but laser guns are something we're edging towards IRL, and super-materials like adamantium and ceramite should be fine on their own, because it's like making a super-wrench(cough*Mechadendrite*cough). It helps with making things, but it's not very impressive on its own.

Serras would likely focus more on weapons of war since she'd know that there was a major supernatural conflict coming, beyond the necessary logistics base to make those weapons without gutting society completely, and Warp-based time travel is unreliable even with Chaotic help, while 40K time travel via science has serious paradox risks, so the Fifth is probably safe. We don't actually know what the First or Fourth are or do, so I'll ignore those. The effects of clones in 40K, and their frequent inferiority or mixed bag of skill and memory compared to the original seems consistent with the Third Magic being what allows a soul-transfer without those side effects, though Fabius being around might cause the Third issues. I swear that maniac does impossible things every few decades. Seriously, he somehow left Slaanesh' service after getting all the knowledge he could out of it. That is impossible. Though there is the issue that Biomancy granting immortality is essentially the soul maintaining the body instead of the other way around, and psychic Primarchs are fully capable of living forever unless something actually manages to kill them. It probably wouldn't be that hard to wander around as a soul as a Primarch, especially since 40K's Warp is an especially hostile afterlife. The Second Magic is essentially 'Manipulate parallel worlds, from switching out bits of the respective timelines from documents, to memories, to full events, and opening portals that allowed travel between them.' but it's explicitly mentioned most people would utterly fail to comprehend it. So, unless Zelretch does it right in front of her or she gets her hands on some of his artifacts, she's not going to be figuring it out any time soon. She can observe alternate tiimelines with futuresight and pastsight would allow her to see all the ways these events could have played out to reach this point, but that's not really Second Magic, more like Magecraft mimicking True Magic, since she can't actually change any of these things, though the knowledge is potentially useful, especially in determining the natures of Servants, who are almost universally beings from the past.

Xela63 · Feb 6, 2020

ilbgar123 said:
The effects of clones in 40K, and their frequent inferiority or mixed bag of skill and memory compared to the original seems consistent with the Third Magic being what allows a soul-transfer without those side effects, though Fabius being around might cause the Third issues. I swear that maniac does impossible things every few decades. Seriously, he somehow left Slaanesh' service after getting all the knowledge he could out of it. That is impossible. Though there is the issue that Biomancy granting immortality is essentially the soul maintaining the body instead of the other way around, and psychic Primarchs are fully capable of living forever unless something actually manages to kill them. It probably wouldn't be that hard to wander around as a soul as a Primarch, especially since 40K's Warp is an especially hostile afterlife.

Eh, the Third is less the "transferring" of souls, though that falls under its domain too, but more the "actualization" of the soul. So the soul gets turned into a perpetual motion engine and you have essentially infinite Prana and can sustain yourself even without a body.

Btw, what do you think about Kiara or Beast III/R? I think she's definitely worse than anything Slaneesh could field from the VS: debates I've been in.

Ten Thousand Colored Stagnation (万色悠滞, Banshoku Yūtai?) A heretic art once used by Kiara in a certain cyber world. Supposedly a medical software program that separates the target's body, mind, and soul, stripping the soul naked (unprotected by the body and mind) allowing her to find problems and solve them. Kiara absorbed these unprotected souls, taking care to taste them fully, saying this was salvation. The ultimate form of charm, or enthrallment. This power has grown stronger with her as a Beast.[1] The beauty of Kiara, now a tenma (the Seductive Bodhisattva) with mara (the crown of the beast) on her head, rocks the sanity, reason, and logic of those who see her. Those who see her, or are seen by her, have to roll for a check to see if they can uphold their selves. Like a sanity check, except a Kiara point check. Sight, taste, hearing, smell, and touch all have their own saving rolls, and even slightly feeling/thinking that Kiara is beautiful is an fail. The person loses sight of their self, and after a slight bout of dizziness completely lose all sense of balance and reality. They become a follower of Kiara standing on the palm of the Bodhisattva.[1] No matter how much power one has, it is meaningless before the power of a tenma. It is difficult for anything that has reason, anything that knows pleasure, or anything that knows pain to escape from this salvation. Of course, this salvation is not at all any form of saving. The mercy of the bodhisattva is how this is seen from its victims. To Kiara, the followers on her palm are nameless masses that are no more than insects.

Or even worse would be Beast III/L, but what is your opinion on this subject?

ilbgar123 · Feb 6, 2020

Slayer 10321 said:
This makes me want a Dresden Files crossover so badly! Or maybe a Destiny cossover. Both (possibly at the same time)?

I just want to see the terror in the faces of the supernaturals when they see Humanity gain the ability en-mass to beat their faces in when threatened. A baseline individual human is irrelevant currently in both Destiny and Dresden Files. Imagine what happens when that human is toting magitech/clarketech armour and weapons plus the fact that he and his buddies outnumber their enemies 10 or 100 to 1?

Yeah, they aren't really equipped for humanity going full Metal Gear on them. I mean, when was the last time something that could crack a continental plate showed up in Dresden that wasn't, you know, God?

Xela63 said:
Eh, the Third is less the "transferring" of souls, though that falls under its domain too, but more the "actualization" of the soul. So the soul gets turned into a perpetual motion engine and you have essentially infinite Prana and can sustain yourself even without a body.

Btw, what do you think about Kiara or Beast III/R? I think she's definitely worse than anything Slaneesh could field from the VS: debates I've been in.

Or even worse would be Beast III/L, but what is your opinion on this subject?

She'd probably pull a reverse-Ink. Ink!Sans is an incomplete creation, and thus, does not possess a soul, and therefore, emotions. He requires a substance formed alongside an alternate universe upon its creation, and at a slower pace as long as it exists, in order to feel, though it's also the source of his powers, so turning his emotions off gives him a power boost. Serras would probably seal her emotions into an object, so she wouldn't consider Kiara beautiful because she wouldn't be able to. You can't like someone if you can't like anything. Given Emps ripped his compassion out just before Horus got blasted by him, I'd say this has precedent.

Xela63 · Feb 6, 2020

ilbgar123 said:
She'd probably pull a reverse-Ink. Ink!Sans is an incomplete creation, and thus, does not possess a soul, and therefore, emotions. He requires a substance formed alongside an alternate universe upon its creation, and at a slower pace as long as it exists, in order to feel, though it's also the source of his powers, so turning his emotions off gives him a power boost. Serras would probably seal her emotions into an object, so she wouldn't consider Kiara beautiful because she wouldn't be able to. You can't like someone if you can't like anything. Given Emps ripped his compassion out just before Horus got blasted by him, I'd say this has precedent.

Myriad Colored Stagnation EX

The thing that metamorphosed Sesshouin Kiara into a demonic boddhisatva.

A heretic technique once created by Kiara in a certain cyber world.

It was a medical software the separated the target's body, mind and soul, stripping the soul naked (without the protection of the body or the mind) so it could listen to their woes and remove their anguish.

Of course, that was just a front.

These defenseless souls, detached from the body and mind, were absorbed into Kiara's own soul, making sure to savour them carefully, while claiming this was salvation.

The power of the ultimate form "charm", or "enthrallment".

This power has only become stronger with her transformation into a Beast.

The beauty of Kiara who's become a Tenma (the Demonic Boddhisatva) with Mara (the crown of the beast) on her head, shakes the sanity, reason, and morals of those who see her.

Those seen by Kiara, or those who saw Kiara, have to roll a check to see if they can sustain their sense of self.

Instead of a "Sanity point save", it's a "Kiara point save".

The senses of sight, taste, hearing, smell and touch. These all have their saving rolls and if you find Kiara beautiful even just a little, you immediately fail.

Those who fail end up losing sight of their self and, after being assaulted by a little dizziness, they become Kiara's devotees, standing on the palm of this boddhisatva without even realizing.

When you open your eyes, a flesh-colored plain stretches into infinity before you.

You're standing on the boddhisatva's palm.

In the direction of the eternally distant horizon, there's Kiara smiling.

"Mankind is a collection of immature beasts.

Subsisting on their desires, drowning in their desires and dissolving into bubbles in their desires; such is their reality──────"

If it's a goddess who would accept such animalistic nature as if she were a boddhisatva, is there anyone who could somehow refuse such enormous and immeasurable love?

With a single finger, she can grant you the overwhelming joy of enlightenment or reaching Nirvana.

The destination is the institution where life is destroyed, the maw of the Heavenly Paradise.

...Like this, no matter how much power one has, it becomes meaningless before a Tenma.

It is difficult for those who possess reason, those who know pleasure and those who know pain to escape from this salvation.

Of course, there is nothing about this salvation that would provide one relief.

Being granted the boddhisatva's benevolence is the impression it gives, but that's strictly from the victims' point of view.

To Kiara, the believers on the palm of her hand are nothing but insignificant rabble on the same level as insects.

The fight with the Boss ver. Kiara starts -> whole party gets charmed by Myriad Colored Stagnation -> the battle stage changes to the stage of being on the palm of Kiara's hand -> Game Over where you couldn't do anything.

...such an ending developed in the FGO/CCC collab.

After that, we escape from Myriad Colored Stagnation with the help of BB, successfully seal the Demonic Boddhisatva transformation by making optimal use of the KP (Kiara Punisher) we collected and commencing the confrontation with Beast III.

Pleasure Deva・The Womb Realm Magdala

Rank: EX

Classification: Anti-Unit Noble Phantasm

Range: 1~90

Maximum number of targets: 7 knights

Amida Amidula・Heaven's Hole.

Anti-Human Order, or maybe Anti-Grand Noble Phantasm.

The Noble Phantasm for Beast III's exclusive-use, which breeds a virtually infinite amount of demon pillars within her own body.

The inside of her body has already become a single universe, the Sukhavati.[3]

Those brought inside her will disappear from reality, having their egos removed and their reason melted away.

No matter what kind of robust body or defensive armor one might have, they are meaningless inside Kiara's body; they are all rendered powerless like a newborn existence and liberated from earthly desires and the woes of man.

Beast III is the "hole" itself that was formed in reality, and those who fall into this hole taste the greatest pleasure imaginable right before disappearing and are absorbed by Kiara while drowning in ecstasy.

Depending on how you look at it, this end of being released from the world of suffering called reality could be called salvation.

In FGO, it deals damage that ignores defense and pierces invincibility. It also recovers one's HP by the means of ecstasy.

In addition, as a hidden trait, it deals bonus damage to the Grand-class.

Just found the VS. thread that had a reliable user post things for Kiara. Serras would have to shut herself off entirely from the world around her to not be affected. So it even happens if they are seen by Kiara and at no point does it really matter if you can have those feelings or not.

Logos Eater: EX

A special trait as a Pleasure Deva.
A unique skill derived from the Banshoku Yuutai.
She possesses a strong damage specialty towards all those endowed with intellect (pleasure), no matter what kind of structure・what kind of scale that intelligent life-form may have.
Supposedly, this also receives a drastic Rank DOWN when she becomes an Alterego. If this special trait falls to C Rank, it becomes a mere hindrance. Really, it would be equivalent to foreplay.

An Anti-Unit, or possibly an Anti-Crown Noble Phantasm (meaning "effective against the seven Grand Servants"). The special Noble Phantasm of Beast III which breeds infinite demon pillars within her body. Her body is no longer a single universe; it has become a paradise. Anyone drawn into it loses their existence, with their consciousness liberated and their will melted. No matter how strong their body, or how much armour they have, this is meaningless inside Kiara's body, and they become as powerless as a newborn as they are liberated. Beast III is a "hole" in reality itself, but just at the edge of annihilation, those drawn into the hole are overcome with ecstasy as they are erased. One could say that liberation from the reality of suffering is a form of salvation.[1]

Heaven's Hole
Possesses a high understanding of lifeforms who discovered the meaning of reproductive acts, or more broadly speaking, the "continuation of the species".
Enables the understanding of the purpose and the meaning regardless of the difference of the form of knowledge.
...You could call it a special attack against religion and ideology.[3]

It will be very difficult, if you go with the latter interpretation of Heaven's Hole, though Serras should be somewhat protected from her regular charm.

Though without BB and Kiara Punishers she will literally just keep escalating until she kills everything. Though with that I see a semi-decent chance for Serras.

ilbgar123 · Feb 6, 2020

Xela63 said:
Pleasure Deva・The Womb Realm Magdala

Just found the VS. thread that had a reliable user post things for Kiara. Serras would have to shut herself off entirely from the world around her to not be affected. So it even happens if they are seen by Kiara and at no point does it really matter if you can have those feelings or not.

Logos Eater: EX

A special trait as a Pleasure Deva.
A unique skill derived from the Banshoku Yuutai.
She possesses a strong damage specialty towards all those endowed with intellect (pleasure), no matter what kind of structure・what kind of scale that intelligent life-form may have.
Supposedly, this also receives a drastic Rank DOWN when she becomes an Alterego. If this special trait falls to C Rank, it becomes a mere hindrance. Really, it would be equivalent to foreplay.

It will be very difficult, if you go with the latter interpretation of Heaven's Hole, though Serras should be somewhat protected from her regular charm.

Though without BB and Kiara Punishers she will literally just keep escalating until she kills everything. Though with that I see a semi-decent chance for Serras.

...So, how hasn't she won already?

It sounds like interacting with her at all is impossible unless you're, like, a Servitor and technically not alive or sentient nevermind sapient.

Xela63 · Feb 6, 2020

ilbgar123 said:
...So, how hasn't she won already?

It sounds like interacting with her at all is impossible unless you're, like, a Servitor and technically not alive or sentient nevermind sapient.

Basically Kiara Punishers made by BB and BB, Meltlilith and Passionlip wrecking havock inside her body weakening her enough for Chaldea's Master to defeat her. Btw, BB and the Alter Ego's only survived because of BB's immortality authority.

ilbgar123 · Feb 6, 2020

Xela63 said:
Basically Kiara Punishers made by BB and BB, Meltlilith and Passionlip wrecking havock inside her body weakening her enough for Chaldea's Master to defeat her. Btw, BB and the Alter Ego's only survived because of BB's immortality authority.

So, how likely is she to be at full power when encountering Serras? Because Primarchs have an equivalent to Magic Resistance built in, she's made from concepts actualized into reality, and turning off her ability to like things means the power has to make that possible before Kiara can enslave her, which means it has to work through all that to affect her. If she'd weakened enough what amounts to a normal human isn't instantly enslaved, then I have serious doubts of her effectiveness against Serras. Primarchs, as Slayer has said, are basically the embodiment of 'Better than you.' regarding humans, though also of what they could become.

Xela63 · Feb 6, 2020

ilbgar123 said:
So, how likely is she to be at full power when encountering Serras? Because Primarchs have an equivalent to Magic Resistance built in, she's made from concepts actualized into reality, and turning off her ability to like things means the power has to make that possible before Kiara can enslave her, which means it has to work through all that to affect her. If she'd weakened enough what amounts to a normal human isn't instantly enslaved, then I have serious doubts of her effectiveness against Serras. Primarchs, as Slayer has said, are basically the embodiment of 'Better than you.' regarding humans, though also of what they could become.

Not really, you need to be "enlightened" (literally think of Buddha) to disregard it/not be instantly enslaved.

Kiara Punisher (Pink)

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Things like those are needed to supress Kiara's growth/ecstasy. There is specifically a Punisher to remove the "Ten Thousand Coloured Stagnation" skill.

But it's to be expected since Beast III/R is a Beast and not just any Servant. She's an evil of humanity. And Primarchs are humanity destillized, just to a lesser attempt than Emps.

ilbgar123 · Feb 6, 2020

Xela63 said:
Not really, you need to be "enlightened" (literally think of Buddha) to disregard it/not be instantly enslaved.

Kiara Punisher (Pink)

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Things like those are needed to supress Kiara's growth/ecstasy. There is specifically a Punisher to remove the "Ten Thousand Coloured Stagnation" skill.

But it's to be expected since Beast III/R is a Beast and not just any Servant. She's an evil of humanity. And Primarchs are humanity destillized, just to a lesser attempt than Emps.

Okay then, the Chaldean master must have been enlightened I guess.

Serras has a computer on a star ship use the tried and true method of hitting her target with anti-continent weapons. The computer cannot think, is not capable of emotions or opinions, and cannot be enslaved because it's already enslaved to its programming. However, Kiara's durability isn't nearly as impressive as her auto-brainwashing, so it should work.

ExNihilo · Feb 6, 2020

ilbgar123 said:
Okay then, the Chaldean master must have been enlightened I guess.

Admittedly, time travel was involved there.

Tzaphquiel · Feb 6, 2020

Ah, yes, about the confrontation with Beast III/R...

Ritsuka actually perished during the first loop. It was thanks to Meltryllis traveling back in time and preparing accordingly that allowed Ritsuka to survive and triumph in the second iteration, Meltryllis and other factors combined, in any case.

Whenever a Beast, a manifestation of a fundamental sin of humanity is confronted, great sacrifices almost certainly will have to be made to defeat it, as it was with the primordial mother, Tiamat, as it was with Goetia. Beast IV/Cath Palug/Fou was a rare exception, though it does indicate that a Beast need not necessarily be defeated by battle, provided that one can teach them to understand and appreciate the human perspective and state of being in order to temper their love of humanity.

Ritsuka is average as a human and magus, but that quality is, in its own way, what makes him remarkable, along with the fact that he is an unparalleled Master, having an unprecedented 100% compatibility as such. That he can get on so well and easily with even the most dangerous Heroic Spirits that would normally require very careful handling like Gorgon says as much of Ritsuka.

Xela63 · Feb 6, 2020

ilbgar123 said:
Okay then, the Chaldean master must have been enlightened I guess.

Serras has a computer on a star ship use the tried and true method of hitting her target with anti-continent weapons. The computer cannot think, is not capable of emotions or opinions, and cannot be enslaved because it's already enslaved to its programming. However, Kiara's durability isn't nearly as impressive as her auto-brainwashing, so it should work.

Well, as I said, Kiara Punishers can remove the charm.

ExNihilo said:
Admittedly, time travel was involved there.

Eh, it's involved during the entirety of F/GO basically if you want to count Rayshifting as time travelling.

ilbgar123 · Feb 6, 2020

Xela63 said:
Well, as I said, Kiara Punishers can remove the charm.

Eh, it's involved during the entirety of F/GO basically if you want to count Rayshifting as time travelling.

Okay, would she have her charm upon encountering Serras or not? Because at this point I'm just going to have her default to Power Field-imbued continent-cracker shells from space unless there's alignment-related tomfuckery going on(in which case the computer disables the Power Fields and uses normal shells and regular lasers) or similar immunity to harm that has to be bypassed via other means, which is mostly going to take the form of Wraith!Serras who fell to Malice and is technically a Hero by the Grail's standards due to fighting similarly evil beings, but is also insane and horrifying.

Malice!Serras would be incredibly nihilistic and contemptuous of 'higher powers' and the concept of 'salvation' having been thoroughly soured on gods after Chaos broke her, hence her pledging herself to Malice, who is one of the only beings reliably able to 'corrupt' the followers of other Chaos Gods. Malice's Necoho facet is essentially an Anti-god, running on disbelief and doubt, so he's the closest thing to the opposite of a god you're going to find in 40K.

Say, would Chaos provide armor against Kiara's power? I mean, they're increasingly not human or sapient, and Daemons are literally psuedo-sapient concepts, to the point Chaos Gods are more masses of memes and concepts than anything resembling people, they just have enough different concepts to have quirks that resemble a distinct personality.

Xela63 · Feb 6, 2020

ilbgar123 said:
Okay, would she have her charm upon encountering Serras or not? Because at this point I'm just going to have her default to Power Field-imbued continent-cracker shells from space unless there's alignment-related tomfuckery going on(in which case the computer disables the Power Fields and uses normal shells and regular lasers) or similar immunity to harm that has to be bypassed via other means, which is mostly going to take the form of Wraith!Serras who fell to Malice and is technically a Hero by the Grail's standards due to fighting similarly evil beings, but is also insane and horrifying.

Say, would Chaos provide armor against Kiara's power? I mean, they're increasingly not human or sapient, and Daemons are literally psuedo-sapient concepts, to the point Chaos Gods are more masses of memes and concepts than anything resembling people, they just have enough different concepts to have quirks that resemble a distinct personality.

If they feel pleasure or pain, they are done for. Basically, this is why you need BB. She even removed her own love for humanity and put it into Alter Ego's of her because she viewed it as unnecessary. Once she uses the Punishers though, Kiara merely becomes a tough nut to crack and her Heaven's Hole is still exeedingly dangerous.

But Kiara likes to play with her food honestly, it's a bad trait of hers.

ilbgar123 · Feb 6, 2020

Xela63 said:
If they feel pleasure or pain, they are done for. Basically, this is why you need BB. She even removed her own love for humanity and put it into Alter Ego's of her because she viewed it as unnecessary.

But Kiara likes to play with her food honestly, it's a bad trait of hers.

Fair enough on the sensation thing.

How is that different from Serras ripping out her ability to feel anything at all and putting it in, say, a locked box or a jar, as I suggested? Emps removed his own compassion, this is the logical conclusion of that.

Xela63 · Feb 6, 2020

ilbgar123 said:
Fair enough on the sensation thing.

How is that different from Serras ripping out her ability to feel anything at all and putting it in, say, a locked box or a jar, as I suggested? Emps removed his own compassion, this is the logical conclusion of that.

Because it was inside the Moon Cell. And inside the Moon Cell, almost nothing can even remotely beat BB. Like, there she is bullshit personified. Look at her fucking stats. Star is even above EX rank.

BB

BB (ビィビィ, Byibyi?) is an Advanced AI originating from the Advanced AI Sakura Matou and the main antagonist of Fate/EXTRA CCC. She is the creator and Master of the Sakura Five in the Sakura Labyrinth. She is also a MoonCancer-class Servant summoned by Ritsuka Fujimaru in the Grand Orders of...

typemoon.fandom.com

ilbgar123 · Feb 6, 2020

Xela63 said:
Because it was inside the Moon Cell. And inside the Moon Cell, almost nothing can even remotely beat BB. Like, there she is bullshit personified. Look at her fucking stats. Star is even above EX rank.

BB

BB (ビィビィ, Byibyi?) is an Advanced AI originating from the Advanced AI Sakura Matou and the main antagonist of Fate/EXTRA CCC. She is the creator and Master of the Sakura Five in the Sakura Labyrinth. She is also a MoonCancer-class Servant summoned by Ritsuka Fujimaru in the Grand Orders of...

typemoon.fandom.com

I've gotta say, Kiara seems overpowered even by Beast standards. This seems more like the sort of nonsense Ars pulls off, if this is what it took to make beating her possible.

Xela63 · Feb 6, 2020

ilbgar123 said:
I've gotta say, Kiara seems overpowered even by Beast standards. This seems more like the sort of nonsense Ars pulls off, if this is what it took to make beating her possible.

Hahahhahah, wait until you get to Kama. Kama also is a Universe by herself literally (thanks Shiva, fucking idiot). And she is basically the hardcounter to Kiara. If Kiara takes all desires and love for herself, then Kama puts so much love into you that you basically have no desires anymore. Fucking Beasts giving me fucking headaches.

But that is why they are called Beasts after all, they are the evils of humanity.

ilbgar123 · Feb 6, 2020

Xela63 said:
Hahahhahah, wait until you get to Kama. Kama also is a Universe by herself literally (thanks Shiva, fucking idiot). And she is basically the hardcounter to Kiara. If Kiara takes all desires and love for herself, then Kama puts so much love into you that you basically have no desires anymore. Fucking Beasts giving me fucking headaches.

But that is why they are called Beasts after all, they are the evils of humanity.

Seems like THAT would be hard-countered by Serras pre-undesiring herself via the method I outlined. Huh, if that's true then no wonder it didn't work on Kiara. Probably a Tactical Rock-Paper-Scissors thing.

Lone Courier 6 · Feb 6, 2020

ilbgar123 said:
Serras has a computer on a star ship use the tried and true method of hitting her target with anti-continent weapons. The computer cannot think, is not capable of emotions or opinions, and cannot be enslaved because it's already enslaved to its programming. However, Kiara's durability isn't nearly as impressive as her auto-brainwashing, so it should work

Quick question, where did Servant Caster Serras get a starship,or munitions of that caliber in this scenario?

Edit: and for that matter who is supplying her the prana?

Tzaphquiel · Feb 6, 2020

Once even a single Beast manifests, a chain reaction begins that will cause all the other Beasts to manifest in their own turns. This process, once initiated, cannot be stopped. Every subsequent Beast that manifests will be stronger than the one before it, reflecting humanity's growth, with the last and strongest being Beast VII of the End.

I am curious about how Serras would fare against Beast IV, Primate Murder. As the embodiment of the sin of comparison, Primate Murder, per his name, is perhaps the Beast most suited to killing humans. So long as Primate Murder is in the presence of humans, he will never stop absorbing power via the growth and comparison of humanity.

ilbgar123 · Feb 6, 2020

Lone Courier 6 said:
Quick question, where did Servant Caster Serras get a starship,or munitions of that caliber in this scenario?

She's not any dumber than canon Serras is she? This is operating under 'Ten year to prepare.' as a scenario, since Serras would figure out something was going to happen involving the supernatural via just asking Chaldea or futuresight pretty quick, and just compare Turn 1 Serras and Turn 10 Serras. Given imminent nonsense-based war, she'd probably focus heavily on warfare, with just enough logistics to allow the locals to become tool users and maintain stuff. Sort of like the Mechanicus not actually knowing how things work but making them via rote memorization of how you assemble things. Once the conflict was over she'd actually explain how these things worked.

Of course, this all assumes she can't figure out a means to jump backwards in time via the Fifth Magic, since a psychic Primarch is basically immortal, she could game the Mystery system by popping up in 100000 BC and just waiting around for the current time period. Basically, much like in 40K, older means stronger. This is part of why Gilgamesh is so hax in most incarnations.

Tzaphquiel said:
Once even a single Beast manifests, a chain reaction begins that will cause all the other Beasts to manifest in their own turns. This process, once initiated, cannot be stopped. Every subsequent Beast that manifests will be stronger than the one before it, reflecting humanity's growth, with the last and strongest being Beast VII of the End.

I am curious about how Serras would fare against Beast IV, Primate Murder. As the embodiment of the sin of comparison, Primate Murder, per his name, is perhaps the Beast most suited to killing humans. So long as Primate Murder is in the presence of humans, he will never stop absorbing power via the growth and comparison of humanity.

Well, there's no brainwashing effect, so she'd probably just dump him on the moon or something. No humans there.

An Extra Primarch

Should the Quest switch to a Narrative Base?

Yes, it will streamline things.

No, I prefer the current system.

Yes, but not until the Crusade begins/Prologue ends.

SPACE!

Devilish Fool