Magical_Duck
The One Who Quacks
- Location
- A Pond
- Pronouns
- Duck
"Qua Quack Quack Quack Quacks Qu, Quack Qau Quack Quacks"
*Chest Beat Humming*
A Simple Transaction I
- Thread starter Rihaku
- Start date
- Original
"Qua Quack Quack Quack Quacks Qu, Quack Qau Quack Quacks"
*Chest Beat Humming*
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
The question is can we get competitive 2-3 pick advancements by not doing stupid reckless things? Being able to do it by getting into dangerous fights in the pillars of creation is ok. Being able to do it without putting our life on the line is even better. That's why I'm so interested in options that enable us to break the ring's chains. (Elder Sign is a form of progress on that subject. So is Philosopher's Wreath. I'd like to think if a Seven Seals/hunger build won and it took Sword/Physical combat options to escape the incentive structure of the Ring I'd be backing them.
Why Philosopher's Wreath? Isn't Linear Halo, the advancement that convert our physical Stats to mental ones for the purpose of research and training in one magic, and Outward Halo, which applies the previous bonuses to every magic system, be better?
Lealope
Not yet invincible
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Why do you even need to though? Any 2-3 picks accesses without the Ring's boost would just have an effective --Progression applied, which would make them massively weaker than the Ring advancements. Compare Honing to any other 2 pick 2 Arete advancement and the difference is absolutely staggering and that's the change that a single +Progression makes. That's the thing: the Advancements you're looking for wouldn't be competitive or would otherwise require a disproportionate amount of effort for however much we get out, lower our current lead on the Apocryphal.
When we can get safe and powerful Advancement for free every month through ++++Progression Pillars encounters and have the Praxis for even more safe investment for even EFB tier effects, what value does opening up more avenues for our limited time and effort have?
Rihaku
The Internet
That's because it has partial scaling alongside, it's just not perfect!
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
I know Philosopher's Wreath attains total parity or superiority to the Ring of Hunger if we got it at this point for training things like Edeldross Magnitude and it gets even more ridiculous if we apply it to Edeldross/Grace Research. It's a monty haul until we cash out by taking Elixir to upgrade all our graces(Edeldross Graces are patterns, Elixir expands the set of patterns we have access to and makes them more powerful, therefore Edeldross graces still work in Elixir and are more powerful) combined with Recursive self-improvement opportunities. An afternoon of training Edeldross with the benefit of Hunger was 1-2 picks. What happens if we go even further beyond, if we're at 2000 percent advancement speed? Without Punctured Soul and going of Runes Charsheet circa Titanomachy, 13*1.6 = 2080 percent baseline edeldross advancement, over double the ring of hunger. Apply Edeldross Adept and it either doubles this advancement speed multiplicatively or raises to to 2180(Edit: For Grace Research Purposes). Linear Halo is awesome for magic systems more powerful than the Noble Praxis like say... the Empyrean Signs. However, I don't know the ratio of physical stats to advancement speed/hunger penalty mitigation. That's why I'm more interested in the Wreath.
Why do I think we need to? Fear of death by epilogue. How many picks do you think Armor of Midnight is worth if it was a pick based ability? And we can get that by training.
Royal Praxis is inefficient compared to a hypothetical upgrade for Elder Sign that lets us get the even signs too. 400 percent advancement speed on a mildly more powerful system or 1000-10000 percent advancement speed on a mildly less powerful system. Progression ++ to ++++ assuming the 4 pluses is the benefit of the Ring of Hunger+Ruling Ring in your parlance.
Edit: You'd probably need to upgrade to Imperial Praxis and wait several indenture tasks for the praxis to become better than upgraded Empyrean Signs again.
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Lealope
Not yet invincible
- Pronouns
- She/Her
You'll note that it only negates the penalty, it does not apply the benefits of the Ring to our research into the Empyreal Signs. Moreover you're hoping that we'll spend 24 Arete on upgrading the Empyrean Signs so they can match the Royal Praxis. Except, and here's the thing, we're not restricted to the Royal. If we're talking about the epilogue and buying an EFB, what could be better than a Hunger with access to 4x advancement speed in the Imperial Praxis? Especially when, as we've seen with Never Better, there exist non-TSH upgrades that can improve the efficiency of our Praxis training.
If we're talking about safe advancement for Hunger in the ultra long term, that's the thing to beat.
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
Did you catch my edit that mentioned that scenario? It supposedly would take several indenture tasks worth of effort for the (Edit: Correcting the transposed Royal and Imperial) Imperial Praxis to edge out the Royal Praxis. There's no Ring of Hunger involved and TSH on the Praxis is a potential possibility, so I'm assuming that rule of thumb applies to Hunger. Sure we could. Question is how much that matters until we get Imperial level praxis techniques online/we wouldn't be able to enjoy the fruits of our arete investment on screen. I don't know what Never Better means in practice. Lower Arete cost to generate Praxis picks? Higher probability to The King Stands alone style advancements showing up when we win a fight? So sure, Imperial Praxis and several indenture tasks later we beat hypothetical double upgraded empyrean signs. If we're still a prisoner of our incentive structure and get killed before we get the Imperial advancements though have we changed anything? We wouldn't even get to enjoy the Imperial Advancements on screen except for briefly I bet.
As for the bit about only negating the penalty, not applying the benefits. I'm going to question that. I'm under the impression that hunger boosted is our normal speed and we have to find ways to add stakes to training to keep it at the moment instead of getting the penalized mortal tier learning speed(Which may not be so mortal anymore given our current intelligence I don't know).
Edit: Another thing is that any advancement venue acquired by shattering the rings chains doesn't have to be pursued at the time Pillars of Creation demands we pursue it.
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OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
Modestly weaker than Royal Praxis absent upgrades like Elder Sign.
Elder Sign brings them closer together by doubling the conceptual potency of odd numbered signs. If we ran into an upgrade afterwards that got us the even signs too, I don't know where it would fall powerlevelwise. Mildly weaker than the Royal Praxis? Equal? Superior but below Imperial?
Honestly I don't know how the signs can be equal to even the Royal Praxis:
First Sign - teleport
vs RoP
If I have to choose one of the two I am getting RoP everytime
Second Sign - improved HDS
vs
Third Sign - summon (alternative was weather control wtf
)I mean - it is okay but we can only summon weaker than us at the moment which is not the best
Fifth Sign - Invincible (but burn 0.1 Rank)
Good shit but vs
It is "merely" 1000 Protection. I am pretty sure Royal Praxis is on Level 2+ on the ISH where stats alone could never reach.
I think we should get PW for Graces supercharged development (focus on utility and Attack Speed Graces) and possibly get RK for 400% to the Royal Praxis.
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
Honestly I don't know how the signs can be equal to even the Royal Praxis:
First Sign - teleport
vs RoP
If I have to choose one of the two I am getting RoP everytime
Second Sign - improved HDS
vs
Third Sign - summon (alternative was weather control wtf
I mean - it is okay but we can only summon weaker than us at the moment which is not the best
Fifth Sign - Invincible (but burn 0.1 Rank)
Good shit but vs
It is "merely" 1000 Protection. I am pretty sure Royal Praxis is on Level 2+ on the ISH where stats alone could never reach.
I think we should get PW for Graces supercharged development (focus on utility and Attack Speed Graces) and possibly get RK for 400% to the Royal Praxis.
Speculation: The Existence of Bring to Heel as an Upgrade for Supreme Enclosure and Elder Signs mention of stacking naturally with Sign upgrades implies it's possible to upgrade signs we already have. Question is what it takes to make that happen.
There are also unspecificied effects based on what categories of sign we pick if we can unlock them.
A Simple Transaction I Original
The Evening/Noonday/Empyrean categories do have effects later down the line depending on the Signs you pick, but you don't know what exactly they do at this time.
forums.sufficientvelocity.com
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True but as you can see with Bring to Heel
I think the the ability to contest the Royal Praxis (in some fields) comes from "overclocking" the Sign but also receiving with some nasty disadvantages. You can summon an Astral beast that can slap Armaments as flies but it will cost a lot. Remember that Rihaku said the Signs are more powerful only in specific circumstances in the realm of magic. Royal Praxis has a multiverse destroying storm and RoB which scales your parameters without limit. I know that comparing 25 Arete advancement is not fair but only Praxis is fairness.
EDIT: SORD Gang forgive me but OaF 2 sucks ass - I though OaF 2 will deal with stats but only 0.1 (0.2 in combat) +ISH seems lame for something that cost 50 Arete (prereq: OaF 1). Aobaru EFB gives +0.3 ISH stats for 25 Arete.
EDIT 2: After so much hype for OaF 2 it was underwhelming. Idk man @Rihaku seems kinda sus to me. I am calling emergency meeting.
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OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
I suppose it's possible. On the other hand... this is the Faustian Bargain trope in action and a natural extrapolation of the Signs themes. We'd need to see another sign upgrade to better speculate. The universe/ontological realm destroying level of Cold Light of Vengenace... how long do you think you have to wave your sword to reach that threshold? Until it reaches universe scale I wouldn't be surprised if Armor of Midnight still provides infinite or very considerable protection. And we could in theory have taken Pennants of Daybreak. 5 pennants is Cold Light of Vengeance at Universe Destruction tier power if we were willing to put the time in.
For the specific circumstances thing, do you recall which word of Rihaku you were referencing?
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LordOfMurder
Bhaal
- Location
- Australia
A true work of art, it surpasses the original in every way just as Gisena will surpass the maiden herself!
So the Signs can only exceed the Royal Praxis when they are upgraded and only in the field of magic. We know the Praxis is the ultimate Sword and Shield magic system in the setting. It is the best for harming and preventing harm but in other areas it struggles (restoration iirc). So it is kinda redundant to focus on offensive Signs (unless they are really convinient). I am pretty sure the Sword Praxis will have some trouble to replicate weird utility effects (like weather control (and again wtf!)) but the Signs are a way to fix our lack of versatility
Bring to Heel has additional benefits that weren't in preview. Getting that and Elder Sign together would be quite broken, actually. Remember that actual point of Enclosure is to translate our Rank into utility by summoning relevant Astrals, and it did that pretty well. Since we have a lot of Rank, that also means a great deal of utility. Double teleport is actually very powerful too; two charges means that we can teleport back, which makes logistics vastly more manageable and opens up host of possible actions. Like, if we had another charge we could have just teleported to Augustine here. Armor of Midnight becomes much better too - with SitS we can cast it for just 0.01 Rank, turning it from something hilariously powerful but impractical to something hilariously powerful and practical.
Elder Sign is not bad, but it is a question of do we really want to spend Arete on that instead of something else. Getting it instead of Pillars is not in the cards, given how absolutely crucial Pillars seems to be, but even something like Ruling Ring could make a good case against Elder Sign.
The actual consideration here is how good Signs are. Like, important thing is that we've already saw them offering us +ISH buffs, so that's evidently something Signs can do. In that case, getting Elder Sign as investment for more ISH in future is actually pretty viable, plus you get more value elsewhere. Would I get it over Serendipity or saving for RR? Probably not. Maybe?
Elder Sign is not bad, but it is a question of do we really want to spend Arete on that instead of something else. Getting it instead of Pillars is not in the cards, given how absolutely crucial Pillars seems to be, but even something like Ruling Ring could make a good case against Elder Sign.
The actual consideration here is how good Signs are. Like, important thing is that we've already saw them offering us +ISH buffs, so that's evidently something Signs can do. In that case, getting Elder Sign as investment for more ISH in future is actually pretty viable, plus you get more value elsewhere. Would I get it over Serendipity or saving for RR? Probably not. Maybe?
It's because you are looking at it when we are barely starting to move on ISH. Imagine if we were at Rank 1, would OaF 1 be a good investment of 25 Arete? It's the same here, the difference between ISH 1 and ISH 1.2 is not that much, but the difference between ISH 3.9 and ISH 4.0 is "the author makes an overpowered character" and "the author participates in a VS debate and literally breaks the setting and gives the character new powers on the fly to win it".
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OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
Tally incoming:
Rihaku
The Internet
You guys are entirely free not to vote for Advancements you don't think are worth the value, but I encourage you to both read the Advancement text carefully and the supporting GM statements before coming to strong conclusions. It should be obvious on a close read why OaF II and Aobaru's EFB aren't comparable despite superficial similarities in one of the areas that OaF affects.
Similarly, it's important to understand the Curse-related consequences of an extended Pillars stay, many of which are neither positive nor optional! To be lured into thinking the Pillars upgrade is an unconditional benefit would be unwise, to say nothing of spending 25 Arete on an effect that won't kick in for a number of IC days...
Speaking of which, you guys may want to consider how long Hunger & Co want to stay in the Realm of Myth before traveling to the Human Sphere. You need to guard Aobaru which necessitates a means of magus extraction to be discovered or researched, unless you want to just drop Letrizia off with Elder Sign or something.
Similarly, it's important to understand the Curse-related consequences of an extended Pillars stay, many of which are neither positive nor optional! To be lured into thinking the Pillars upgrade is an unconditional benefit would be unwise, to say nothing of spending 25 Arete on an effect that won't kick in for a number of IC days...
Speaking of which, you guys may want to consider how long Hunger & Co want to stay in the Realm of Myth before traveling to the Human Sphere. You need to guard Aobaru which necessitates a means of magus extraction to be discovered or researched, unless you want to just drop Letrizia off with Elder Sign or something.
To explicitly state what Rihaku's trying to say:
Needless to say, SitS, OaF I and OaF II work really well together..
While Aobaru buffs our stats, OaF II buffs everything. Our mental abilities, our social abilities, our Rank, fucking Gleam, you name it, it gets elevated. And with SitS, this means +0.4ISH to everything Hunger related while used for purpose of war.
Needless to say, SitS, OaF I and OaF II work really well together..
I am doing the classical "whine to devs to buff perfectly viable option because *reasons*".
Whine, even when it cannot be whined
Lealope
Not yet invincible
- Pronouns
- She/Her
He didn't say that it was measured on multiple Geas tasks, only that it could be. The concrete example given was the difference between a Celestial and a Solar. Considering Hunger's advancement speed is like 100x the average Cursebearer and he's got access to multiple sources of Praxis improvements, it's likely he'll reach that point far quicker than normal.
As for Signs, it's not as though we even need to choose. We can simply work on the Praxis personally and outsource their research to another companion, giving them Exalted Spirit or time dilation as multipliers when needed but we can hardly do the same in reverse.
I have no idea how you'd get that impression when that would mean we spent a Lesser Remittance on intentionally getting something that's actively detrimental to us. The blurb for the Ring clearly says that it dramatically improves our speed in active conflict while penalising our training.
The rest of them beat me to it but Aobaru's EFB is dogshit in ISH buffs compared to this. OaF 2 applies to all abilities and all stats! That's +0.2 ISH for Rank, power of ruin, Intelligence, Wisdom, Wits, Luck and whatever the fuck else you want to name and more importantly, it stacks with all other ISH upgrades. In Rihaku's evaluation of the option, he literally says it offers us immense immediate power even as the options notes that its power compounds massively with additional ISH upgrades. And it's a SORD EFB! What more could you possibly wan-
never mind, you're still my guy
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