A Simple Transaction I

[Shard]

When do we roll the d100 determining if Hunger gets there or dies?

E: Where will it be rolled? SV? Rolz? Is the target number representing the 1% odds 1,100,or a different number?

 

[Aabcehmu]

I came up with this a good while ago - here's the ultimate superbuild that ~wins* everything, not that it'll help you since only Rihaku and I can take it.

Infinite Morning - Super Seraphic Singularity
Location: Arranor +3
Magics: The Essential Gift -3
Benefits: Chosen One: Essential Gift -2, Seraphic Countenance -3
Artifacts: Keter -3
Drawbacks: Three Wishes +1, Hamartia (Greed) +1, Ark's Golden Gloom +2, Thaumiel +3
DLC: Power Word: Bird +1 Embar

Brief Explanation:
*Your innate Essentialism has overall parameters (capacity, restoration, talent) equivalent to Denlah's. Although this doesn't mean you'll instantly become as strong as the King of Arranor, it does set you on a path of success.
*With Chosen One, you now instead have all such attributes at a tenfold of Denlah's; the reserves and comprehension of a tenfold prodigy in most circumstances will outstrip even those of some archwizards. The ability to surpass the limits of the art means you'll eventually be able to cast with the vaunted aspect of Life, and perhaps others. Even a naive, brute cantrip channeling a minor dross of Fire into a destructive beam would be terrifyingly strong by the standards of most adept essentialists.
*Now, with Keter, your talent far surpasses Denlah's own. Limits will be shattered sooner, grand and paradigm-altering spells invented early on to provide the most benefit, not to mention the charisma and cajoling skills needed to peddle for salts and training artifacts at maximally advantageous rates!
*All of that? Is nothing. Once your Countenance is shed to reveal the Seraph underneath, consider the terror: a hundred Denlah's worth of essence, equivalent to a conclave of the world's strongest archmagi casting in concert, guided by a laser-sharp mind with a flawless talent for the art's finest and subtlest aspects. Your calculation shall grind all foes underneath its weight like obdurate clockwork, lucubrations fueled with ever-greater reserves of mental salts, as wonders undreamt are attained.

I won't bother describing the sort of spells you could cast with this.

Regarding drawbacks, assuming you avoid Sulevast discovering what you've done over here and eating the penalty imposed on him to attack early - should be easy to sever that Reciprocal link with enough spellcasting, though - and that you can deal with Thaumiel skillfully - which should be easy once you've researched enough spells...

You're essentially a god.

...Turns out breaking the cap limit on embers is stupidly good.

*Not really, but gives you a hell of a start.

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What's the match-up like between this guy and Skyneath?

 

[HoratioVonBecker]

Yeah that's what I meant...didn't really come over in the text which is my bad heh...tho the main point of the hilariously lower chance still remains.

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I mean, the Forebear only needed infinite time, not transfinite or post-transfinite time. He did admittedly have a scaling pressure from the Procession, but Cursebearer protections and having the Imperial Praxis instead of the Royal might make up for that! Plus, he's definitely at the point where the only thing keeping him from infinite training is the Decimator, which he's already nearly solved - he just needs to develop the Fish Clone Technique and then more than double his power every two months.

 

[WHISPER]

It's definitely not that easy to become a high cursebearer like separate from how low or big the chances for the options are.

We already have an example of the Praxis not being enough to accomplish something with infinite prep time in the past - which is growing strong enough to defeat the hidden ones. (As far I understood that included both Praxis versions)

Of course the chance is not absolute zero or nobody would be on that level but I still feel you are slightly underselling what it takes to become high cursebearer level.

...Besides all that the Praxis is definitely really cool I still would love a quest actually fully centred around its powers and lore and stuff one day.

 

[Birdsie]

What's the match-up like between this guy and Skyneath?

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Uncertain, but even with the entire might of the Pantheon and the impressive capabilities of Occultation, a direct attack could well be ill-advised; someone with Keter-backed intellect inside final form and Essentialism could destroy worlds by accident if their control and finesse didn't also scale commensurately. This isn't to say it's inconceivable that Skyneath would win, but I don't think it'd be as simple as a linear encounter.

 

[Aabcehmu]

Uncertain, but even with the entire might of the Pantheon and the impressive capabilities of Occultation, a direct attack could well be ill-advised; someone with Keter-backed intellect inside final form and Essentialism could destroy worlds by accident if their control and finesse didn't also scale commensurately. This isn't to say it's inconceivable that Skyneath would win, but I don't think it'd be as simple as a linear encounter.

Click to shrink...

Hm. More of a persistent threat, taking bits and pieces of the Singular One over time to reinforce himself, then? That seems feasible.

 

[HoratioVonBecker]

It's definitely not that easy to become a high cursebearer like separate from how low or big the chances for the options are.

We already have an example of the Praxis not being enough to accomplish something with infinite prep time in the past - which is growing strong enough to defeat the hidden ones. (As far I understood that included both Praxis versions)

Of course the chance is not absolute zero or nobody would be on that level but I still feel you are slightly underselling what it takes to become high cursebearer level.

...Besides all that the Praxis is definitely really cool I still would love a quest actually fully centred around its powers and lore and stuff one day.

Click to shrink...

I still feel like it's a better risk to take. Free Hunger grows faster than first-ascension Forebear, and less terribly.

 

[ilbgar123]

I still feel like it's a better risk to take. Free Hunger grows faster than first-ascension Forebear, and less terribly.

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If nothing else, I feel the Free Hunger is at much less risk of 'The Forebear fights The Accursed again.' than Vengeance if he successfully hits Actual High Cursebearer(he's technically HC-level already since undoing the Tyrant's Curse from his end means he accomplished something relevant to The Accursed, but...) which can, on the net, be worse than not hitting HC at all.

And again, if Hunger doesn't trust The Accursed enough to follow along when The Accursed calls in his favor, he certainly won't trust The Accursed on the matter of becoming the True Omnipotent.

 

[Shard]

The risk is honestly pretty minute honestly, Hunger would have to hit that tier of power first.

 

[Aabcehmu]

Speaking as a person already voting for Freedom, I feel like it's maybe disingenuous to argue about Freedom!Hunger's possibility of becoming a HCB. Vengeance's odds aren't good, and I think it's accurate to say that its spread of outcomes extends much, much further into the red than Freedom's, but Vengeance's odds are still definitely better than Freedom's, which I believe are somewhere in the nether-regions of "literally impossible, even after accounting for 100% of Hunger's protagonism, metanarrative bullshit, help from outside sources other than the Accursed, etc."

 

[WHISPER]

Yeah that's all I'm saying I'm not trying to say Vengeance is the sure fire way to High Cursebearer...just that if one wants every help to get it (which is a 1% chance) then Vengeance is the one with the Perk not Freedom.

Can't always have your cake and eat it too you know?

 

[HoratioVonBecker]

Speaking as a person already voting for Freedom, I feel like it's maybe disingenuous to argue about Freedom!Hunger's possibility of becoming a HCB. Vengeance's odds aren't good, and I think it's accurate to say that its spread of outcomes extends much, much further into the red than Freedom's, but Vengeance's odds are still definitely better than Freedom's, which I believe are somewhere in the nether-regions of "literally impossible, even after accounting for 100% of Hunger's protagonism, metanarrative bullshit, help from outside sources other than the Accursed, etc."

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I think we just don't have the information necessary to make that call? It was mentioned towards the start of the quest that Combat with Sword That Ends The World might be able to beat the Hidden Ones given infinite time, and I think we've played well enough to make infinite lifespan given no Apocryphal pretty likely.

 

[WHISPER]

No I'm pretty sure it's a fact that Vengeance has the straight up better chances for high cursebearer...to be fair I don't care to find the spefic WOG on that right now but im still like 90% sure on that.

 

[Aabcehmu]

I think we just don't have the information necessary to make that call? It was mentioned towards the start of the quest that Combat with Sword That Ends The World might be able to beat the Hidden Ones given infinite time, and I think we've played well enough to make infinite lifespan given no Apocryphal pretty likely.

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My recollection is the inverse, actually. That even intensified Praxis and infinite time wouldn't be sufficient to let a Combat-type scale to the level of the Hidden Ones.

 

[WHISPER]

Something else...I just had the thought that it was said that when the Forebearer died infinite people were celebrating his demise which obviously means infinite people were also oppressed by him...now I really just want to imagine what that would mean for any karma scales/systems not build with/for mathematic infinities that comes into contact with him?

Like how would just the weight of doing that affect stuff like the Warp from 40k or the Force from Star Wars etc. ?

(I mean he's obviously above both in pure power but you know... I really I'm just talking about the weight of his crimes.)

 

[HoratioVonBecker]

My recollection is the inverse, actually. That even intensified Praxis and infinite time wouldn't be sufficient to let a Combat-type scale to the level of the Hidden Ones.

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I haven't found the post I'm looking for, but I think what it was is that intensified Praxis wouldn't be enough to do so in only finite time. In the post I'm thinking of he hadn't decided if it would work given infinite time, though, and unless something else happened to let the Forebear hit High Cursebearer tier, he managed it given only the Royal Sword Praxis and an infinite series of escalating fights - which would mean that Rihaku ultimately decided that yes, it could.
Unless somehow the Forebear's maximum achieved power is sufficiently below that needed to beat the Hidden Ones that that plus being aligned with the Accursed wouldn't be enough?

 

[WHISPER]

Unless somehow the Forebear's maximum achieved power is sufficiently below that needed to beat the Hidden Ones that that plus being aligned with the Accursed wouldn't be enough?

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While the text doesn't outright do a power comparison it does say that the Forebearer eventually joined the ranks of the Accursed's greatest enemies which succests he is on that level...of course we don't actually know if high cursebearer tier beings are all similar in power or "just" share a tier.

 

[Shard]

The Forebear, a being defined by inability and unwillingness to give up, giving up on the Accursed asking would add so much credibility to the Accursed.

 

[ilbgar123]

[H] Herotide: Legal Build.
[H] Palimpest.
[H] The Stirred Pot
[H] The Director's Cut (+1 Drop)
[H] The Recruitment Drive (+1 Drop)
[H] The River-Damming Stone (+1 Drop)
[H] The Heathen Haruspex
[H] Heroic Stature (-1 Drop)
[H] Heavenskin (-2 Drops)
[H] Metalmind (-2 Drops)
[H] Blood Anointment (-4 Drops -3 Drops)
[H] Skeleton Key (-4 Drops)
[H] First Person Perspective (+1 Drop)
[H] Unveiled Aura (+2 Drops)
[H] Red Eyes Alight (+3 drops, limit-breaking)

Admittedly, the Stone is probably a bad idea even with all the advantages I'm stacking here, but the sheer chaos will provide opportunities for Stature's Rank advancement equivalent. Palimpest provides major talent in all magics and a general mental upgrade, which means my Advancement in my purchased magics should be significantly buffed. Heavenskin has imbibing stuff that strengthens you explicitly mentioned, so I expect it to improve my affinity for Metalmind and Blood Anointment even further. An Architect, Overmind, Dragon hybrid has the potential to surpass any one of those, nevermind with Palimpest and Stature as growth engines. Similarly, the Skeleton Key should help a great deal in opening paths to healing the Dragon, especially with the Stirred Pot to do some of the heavy lifting for me. Haruspex should have some advice to offer, which I can seek out deliberately even with FPP. Not 100% on what the deal with Red Eyes is, but if I'm lucky, she'll scare off the Stone. The sheer chaos of all this Interference should draw at least some of the initial heat off of me.

[H] Herotide: Greed Build.
[H] Palimpest.
[H] The Stirred Pot
[H] The Director's Cut (+1 Drop)
[H] The Recruitment Drive (+1 Drop)
[H] The River-Damming Stone (+1 Drop)
[H] The Undead Emperor
[H] Heroic Stature (-1 Drop)
[H] Heavenskin (-2 Drops)
[H] Metalmind (-2 Drops)
[H] Blood Anointment (-4 Drops)
[H] Worldly Powers (-3 Drops -2 Drops)
[H] Skeleton Key (-4 Drops)
[H] First Person Perspective (+1 Drop)
[H] Unveiled Aura (+2 Drops)
[H] Red Eyes Alight (+3 drops, limit-breaking)

Diagetically, this is probably a version of the setting where the Avarice option is also a Limit-Breaker so I just take it, but having 6 Drops to start changes the build a fair bit. I feel it gives enough leeway for the Stone to be a not-terrible idea, in the sense that I have a much better shot of actually dealing with it. Similarly, the +3 Drops means I can grab Worldly Impression, and Berya explicitly has access to all the Induction powers, which she can then teach me. I have Palimpest, so it shouldn't take her long to teach me at least the basics of her magics, and she, in turn, can take advantage of my extremely rare magics.

Additionally, I expect Plenary/Aura to be pseudo-mitigated by Berya not being me.