“Human Resources” Shouldn’t Be This Literal: A PMMM/ProjectMoon Quest

[Valkhir]

This is... not actually true. Unless newer installments added these things. Kyubey specifically points out that humanity is an irregularity for the ability to coexist despite having emotions. These emotions are necessary to create energy. Humanity is pretty important to the Incubators because of that.

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This just means that species who have emotions generally cannot really coexist and make a stable civilization, this doesn't say anything about their emotional valence and population numbers, which is what the Witch system actually depends on.

If there existed countless species with quick generation, short-lifespan/quick-birth and high emotional valence, then they would not one bit be inferior to humanity in energy production, even if they had constant warfare or even worse.

These are two things that are implied to be important, but aren't stated to be so, and from Kyuubey...well.

 

[Naron]

If Humanity is so important. Madoka's witch destroying Humanity would've been something Kyubey would do to avoid at all costs.

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Madoka witching will generate at least as much energy as the rest of humanity until its conclusion. The difference is merely a matter of the timespan. Hence, getting all the energy now at the cost of humanity is the correct choice.

In addition, we do not actually know the full extent of Kyubey's capabilities. Whether they can actually do the other things you ascribe to them is up in the air.

 

[questioningmeme]

Madoka witching will generate at least as much energy as the rest of humanity until its conclusion. The difference is merely a matter of the timespan. Hence, getting all the energy now at the cost of humanity is the correct choice.

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This is another part that we do not know the truth about.

Is it, "Rest of Humanity until they destroy themselves"? Is it, "Rest of humanity, at its current population level until the earth loses the ability to support life"?

Any assumption about Kyuubey is up in the air, but one thing is for sure. To it, the energy of Madoka is merely worth a "quota" in that particular cycle.

There is no need for speculation. Only seeing results. And the results say that Humanity is not important to QB to the point of preserving them over Madoka's energy count and fulfilling a "Quota".

QB HAS to have other means of generating contracts WITHOUT relying on humans to fulfill its quota. Because as much as Madoka generates, she doesn't generate infinite energy. And the thing QB needs to "defeat" currently with its understanding requires infinite energy.

 

[Valkhir]

Madoka witching will generate at least as much energy as the rest of humanity until its conclusion. The difference is merely a matter of the timespan. Hence, getting all the energy now at the cost of humanity is the correct choice.

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Would any finite amount of energy not be worse than any infinite amount of eternal emotion farming?

It doesn't really make sense if we look at it at face value, if their goal is to do anything for their goal.

I am speaking of infinite energy because...why would they let humanity ever end? They don't even need to do anything, just nudge and prod and have correct humans make correct wishes.

Its probably pretty imperfect, but even a chance of infinite energy should be more useful than a very high if finite sum if they want to go on forever, unless humans are not really rare productivity wise.

 

[breakingamber]

The implication is that the Incubators do not think that human society can continue onwards indefinitely, and therefore have a defined 'quota' for the sum of energy generatable from all of human history, one that Madoka's Witch would equal or exceed if it were to form.

Part of their rules is that they (ostensibly) cannot tell humans what wishes to make. Hence they cannot have humans make 'correct' wishes.

 

[Eternal_0bserver]

Part of their rules is that they (ostensibly) cannot tell humans what wishes to make. Hence they cannot have humans make 'correct' wishes.

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They cannot force people to make a certain wish, yes. However, they are likely to be able to predict, with some degree of accuracy, what information and external factors might cause a certain girl to make a certain wish and think it was her idea. It's not a guarantee, but even if the Incubators don't understand humans, they have had millennia of observation to guide such things even without understanding - the same thing that was done with Magic. In addition, they are likely to avoid girls whose desires are likely to do more harm than good to the System.

As for the victory conditions... For me, it's basically two options: Give the Incubators a better and less terrible alternative, or change the existing system so that it's not completely terrible - the option that Madokami chose. As for the second one, maybe X could use her powers in such a way that the Witches would turn back into Magical Girls after defeating them. The Incubators would be incredibly interested in this, and it would make the future of the Magical Girls less hopeless. We can also try modifying the Soul Gems to find ways to purify them without the Seeds of Grief - with Light, for example, although it will be very difficult to sell this to the Incubators.

 

[Valkhir]

The implication is that the Incubators do not think that human society can continue onwards indefinitely, and therefore have a defined 'quota' for the sum of energy generatable from all of human history, one that Madoka's Witch would equal or exceed if it were to form.

Part of their rules is that they (ostensibly) cannot tell humans what wishes to make. Hence they cannot have humans make 'correct' wishes.

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Either they can predict wishes with enough accuracy to make an accurate prediction regarding the lifespan of humanity even with them, in which case they don't have to suggest, directly influence etc. Just...not be around to grant certain wishes. They could even wait for a change in mind for a person and do it later.

Infinitely sustainable energy is superior for planning into eternity, always.

If they can't predict them that well, then they obviously can't make an accurate quota of humanity anyway. In which case humanity may well continue infinitely due to unforeseen wishes, or greatly exceed quota at minimum.

 

[Nottheunmaker]

I'm with X. Get rid of Kuybey and their system. Does that sound impossibly hard? Yes, but so was getting the Seed of Light to sprout. If you've already done the near impossible, why settle for less when the stakes could be even higher?

 

[Eternal_0bserver]

It occurred to me that having a certain quota by itself means that the Incubators have some kind of benchmark for that. Maybe they're extrapolating from their experiences with other species in the universe with similar traits, or maybe Earth isn't even the planet of origin for humans here. It is highly likely that they are spreading highly energy-efficient species to planets that can be made suitable for them to thrive, and then guiding their development as has been done with humans.

I'm with X. Get rid of Kuybey and their system. Does that sound impossibly hard? Yes, but so was getting the Seed of Light to sprout. If you've already done the near impossible, why settle for less when the stakes could be even higher?

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Do you mean within the planet or within the entire universe? If the former, our change will actually be negligible. If the latter, X will have to take on their entropy-fighting duty if she doesn't want the universe to be dead - and given X's nature, she could very well witness this event in person. We can dismantle the System, even possibly enlist the Incubators by modifying them with our powers, but we need a plan for what to do after that.

 

[Nottheunmaker]

Do you mean within the planet or within the entire universe? If the former, our change will actually be negligible. If the latter, X will have to take on their entropy-fighting duty if she doesn't want the universe to be dead - and given X's nature, she could very well witness this event in person. We can dismantle the System, even possibly enlist the Incubators by modifying them with our powers, but we need a plan for what to do after that.

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Personally I'm fine with just getting them off Earth. If X wants to go above and beyond that though, I'm cool with that. I'm happy to be along for the ride.

Though I suspect X just wants to stop them from messing with humans.

 

[Eternal_0bserver]

Personally I'm fine with just getting them off Earth. If X wants to go above and beyond that though, I'm cool with that. I'm happy to be along for the ride.

Though I suspect X just wants to stop them from messing with humans.

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Looking at the powers that X has, "Fix everything" might actually be an easier and more achievable option than playing planet guard forever, preventing the Incubators from coming here. And it doesn't really help those who have already become Magical Girls, even assuming that X will be fine, metaphorically protecting the only house from the horrors of the whole City, which I personally highly doubt.

 

[Lurker183839]

Light is both non-toxic to the material world, and immune to the corrosive nature of Alkahest. A higher form of alchemical glass. Use it to forge a vessel that can contain that which ordinarily cannot be.

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But if that is true, why is Light leaking at all times? (Cogito Ephemera) And being more prominent during the use of Lobotomy to boot? To catch any stray א-ness that leaks out (since it was mentioned the supression job was definitely incomplete), or something else?

Since you asked for information about X's Abnormality self, here's a sprite edit I threw together in an afternoon.

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Looking closer at the legs, seems to be bandages (covering worm? things), and horn-shaped bones there. I wonder if the difference between the legs points to X's split nature/inspirations/experiences when the Seed Of Light sprouted? What could the goat symbolism mean here, anyway?

 

[Eternal_0bserver]

Looking closer at the legs, seems to be bandages (covering worm? things), and horn-shaped bones there. I wonder if the difference between the legs points to X's split nature/inspirations/experiences when the Seed Of Light sprouted? What could the goat symbolism mean here, anyway?

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In my opinion, X's appearance partly alludes to "Angelic purpose achieved by Devilish means". X herself is in a confrontation over whether her actions were good or evil and blames herself for not being able to save more people.

 

[questioningmeme]

Well one thing is for sure. After this, Angela is gonna dump so much work on X. The geography of the city is definitely not gonna be easy work.

 

[Nottheunmaker]

Looking at the powers that X has, "Fix everything" might actually be an easier and more achievable option than playing planet guard forever, preventing the Incubators from coming here. And it doesn't really help those who have already become Magical Girls, even assuming that X will be fine, metaphorically protecting the only house from the horrors of the whole City, which I personally highly doubt.

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Maybe, but we don't know the extent of א's abilities. However, if we assume it's power is linked to the Well, then the reach of X's power probably only extends as far as humans do.

I'm also optimistic about existing Magical Girls, though I don't see what they have to do with this discussion. The Incubators aren't interested in helping them, quite the opposite. X is. The biggest problem there is the same problem X has with א, a lack of understanding. And poking Soul Gems and Greif Seeds is far safer then poking א.

In my opinion, X's appearance partly alludes to "Angelic purpose achieved by Devilish means". X herself is in a confrontation over whether her actions were good or evil and blames herself for not being able to save more people.

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The lack of a face indicates a lack of identity as well. X is a fun kettle of issues.

 

[kaillll]

Considering even the map of the place only has shapes. I think the streets of the city will be so difficult to map that they will have three maps for one district, one for the nest, one for backstreets and one for weird corners of backstreets.

 

[questioningmeme]

Considering even the map of the place only has shapes. I think the streets of the city will be so difficult to map that they will have three maps for one district, one for the nest, one for backstreets and one for weird corners of backstreets.

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Also the under belly of the city too. Like the sewers the Sweeper was in during their reception's prebattle cutscene.

Like I said. The work waiting for X will be hellish. And infinitely more boring than managing abnormality.

 

[Nyarky]

Would any finite amount of energy not be worse than any infinite amount of eternal emotion farming?

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I am speaking of infinite energy because...why would they let humanity ever end? They don't even need to do anything, just nudge and prod and have correct humans make correct wishes.

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They can't really prod and nudge, it would destroy all the potential of humans and make the whole thing pointless since they couldn't wish anymore, or at least that's one of the most coherent explanation I have seen about why Humans aren't literally treated as cattle by the Incubators.

Looking closer at the legs, seems to be bandages (covering worm? things)

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I'm pretty sure they are what's Yesod wear to hide his body.

This is... not actually true. Unless newer installments added these things. Kyubey specifically points out that humanity is an irregularity for the ability to coexist despite having emotions. These emotions are necessary to create energy. Humanity is pretty important to the Incubators because of that.

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An interesting thing is that while they tell that humans are exceptional when it comes to their level of cohabitation despite their emotions, they never ever tell that they are unique, something that is not probable can still happen thousands or tens of thousands or even billions of times if the total population is big enough, if the incubators operate at the universal level, they have access to plenty more that can do the same as us, hell even if they only have one galaxy they definitely have others species for it.

 

[Eternal_0bserver]

Maybe, but we don't know the extent of א's abilities. However, if we assume it's power is linked to the Well, then the reach of X's power probably only extends as far as humans do.

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Doesn't that mean that her abilities in this case shouldn't work with the local people as well, because they aren't connected to the people of her home world, even if they are similar? In my opinion, X's abilities can be applied to any sentient species. Although this also needs to be explored.

Well one thing is for sure. After this, Angela is gonna dump so much work on X. The geography of the city is definitely not gonna be easy work.

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If we remember the part about the alien landscapes, we can actually assume that opening paths to other worlds and mapping them is also part of the goal because of X. So yes, given that the information needs to be updated, the staff on this floor will probably be really busy.

Angela: *It was a good idea to distract X with all this work from conversations I'm not ready for.*
X: It's a really big task, but I'm happy to report that we're moving even faster than I thought. Now, I think it's time to recap what we've learned?
Angela: *Maybe it wasn't such a good idea after all.*

 

[thelordofmango]

I don't see how doka witching and humanity are mutually exclusive. Kyubey could probably zap her into an uninhabited system, and still get the energy from both.

 

[questioningmeme]

I don't see how doka witching and humanity are mutually exclusive. Kyubey could probably zap her into an uninhabited system, and still, get the energy from both.

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Because he doesn't do that. He NEVER stops Madoka from destroying humanity (Because the moment she is on Earth for any longer than a couple of minutes, humanity dies).
He literally says that Madoka fulfills the "quota" and whatever happens to Humanity is no longer his problem.

 

[Valkhir]

Doesn't that mean that her abilities in this case shouldn't work with the local people as well, because they aren't connected to the people of her home world, even if they are similar? In my opinion, X's abilities can be applied to any sentient species. Although this also needs to be explored.

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Human seems to be a broad classification. Normal humans, full conversion machine body cyborgs, Sweepers, Distortions, Bloodfiends are absolutely human.

Abnormalities were a known thing, and counted as human as despite the basically human level cognition nothing was done. Since other branches of L Corp also had them and I am sure the Head knew all about those.

As for why Angela didn't count as human even if they were templated off a human...metaphysics, I guess, somehow?

The Light...collective consciousness also doesn't seem limited to just one world here, as at least Abnormalities can come here, and Lobotomy has stuff to look at.

If there weren't metaphysical compatibility, what would it look at and change when used.

Freischütz entry also says that he traveled to many worlds, and after Black Forest and birds I am ready to just take it at face value in some manner at least even if he was extracted or not, so thats another traveler in my opinion.

 

[Nyarky]

Abnormalities were a known thing, and counted as human as despite the basically human level cognition nothing was done. Since other branches of L Corp also had them and I am sure the Head knew all about those.

As for why Angela didn't count as human even if they were templated off a human...metaphysics, I guess, somehow?

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The abnormalities where never considered humans, they were probably only tolerated because they were imprisoned at all times.

For Angela: she has a discussion with Roland about that, the answer is that the Head's classification is your birth, she wasn't born human, so they don't consider her such, yes, that's not an actual good answer, but it's the one the head use and everyone follows as a result

 

[questioningmeme]

The abnormalities where never considered humans, they were probably only tolerated because they were imprisoned at all times.

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They are borne of humans though so a case could be made that they are also humans...

Though where does the Head's perspective of Abnormalities come from? Zena did say that Distortions are another form of humans. But I don't recall if she ever mentioned anything about Abnormalities.

 

[Valkhir]

They are borne of humans though so a case could be made that they are also humans...

Though where does the Head's perspective of Abnormalities come from? Zena did say that Distortions are another form of humans. But I don't recall if she ever mentioned anything about Abnormalities.

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The abnormalities where never considered humans, they were probably only tolerated because they were imprisoned at all times.

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Since L Corp branches also used Abnormalities and weren't purged despite having human cognition (at least some), they are human.

Merely being imprisoned wouldn't be an escape from the Head's laws. Similar to how the "no more than 1 instance of a person in the City, 1 week grace period" that R Corp had to try to work around.

If the rule is no nonhumans with human cognition, then as with all other laws I am going to take it as absolute. As there was no problem with them, they don't fall under it, and sometimes exhibit characteristics that would disqualify a nonhuman, I think they count as human.

Edit: In the event of Angela turning human ending, the Library also keeps the Abnos and aren't bothered by the Head.