“Human Resources” Shouldn’t Be This Literal: A PMMM/ProjectMoon Quest

[Nyarky]

You'll be seeing the next chapter soon, don't worry! I wouldn't leave you hanging for too long, would I?

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You did manage to do so consistently enough to allow building trust on that, that's is true.

But the possibility of the next chapter never coming is always there and probably coloring perceptions in the background, so I had to acknowledge the possibility exists.

Frankly, it's a problem that might be amplified in non professional serialized works, but that also exists in professional ones (coughcoughDragonballsuperandBerserkcoughcough).

 

[Lepidoptera]

You did manage to do so consistently enough to allow building trust on that, that's is true.

But the possibility of the next chapter never coming is always there and probably coloring perceptions in the background, so I had to acknowledge the possibility exists.

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I promise to do my best to always finish any stories I start. I definitely won't be abandoning this story after putting so much time into it. Barring my untimely death I will be seeing anything I start to completion.

 

[questioningmeme]

I promise to do my best to always finish any stories I start. I definitely won't be abandoning this story after putting so much time into it. Barring my untimely death I will be seeing anything I start to completion.

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Don't rush the next chapter bud.

Nyarky is just overreacting a bit too much and is making a mountain out of an anthill.

You are doing fine, and the cliff-hanger isn't even that bad.

I like quick releases too, but I would rather avoid poor writing and rushing story lines.

 

[Lepidoptera]

Don't rush the next chapter bud.

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It's less rushing and more that I'm excited for what's coming next. This chapter and the next few were planned together.

 

[Suleverf]

If you constantly point out the struggles but have the victory be given only in short summaries (which was the problem with the fic I mentioned, all the big problems had entire acts, all the victories where in timeskips), then the readers will not feel as if they ever won anywhere, because the focus is against it.

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Sayaka and Mami felt like big unmitigated wins to me. Now obviously they weren't an immediate result of our choices, but a downstream result of everything X has done to build them up over the course of the quest. That may not feel as satisfying to everyone, but the effect is palpable.

The Adult having time to concoct this cruel and elaborate plan with Madoka? A result of holding back and preparing as opposed to rushing in. There was a clear reason to prepare, but it is a tradeoff. I expect very few plans to succeed with little resistance from the opposing side, save for exceptions where the enemy is entirely figured out or there's a combination stroke of genius and luck. No plan survives contact with the enemy and all that. Yes there would still be problems if we voted something else, but the expectation is that the problems are different and appropriate to the choice selected.

 

[Nyarky]

Sayaka and Mami felt like big unmitigated wins to me.

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Thing is, you are pointing out the problem with that yourself:

Now obviously they weren't an immediate result of our choices

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This victory doesn't feel like a big unmitigated win for the voters because you have to think on it to realize it's related to our actions.

What I am talking about is a direct cause to effect, very visible, case.

A plan can survive contact with the enemy, but also, it isn't a question of that, it's a question of the plan mattering in the result, even if in parts.

NT is a big example of what I am talking about here, in that our plan at first ended up not having any relation to our win, NT just barreled right through it and the victory was due to something else entirely.

Yes The daughter spent some time playing NT like a drum, but she did it on her own, we weren't the one that decided that this was the Godzilla threshold and it was time to get out the big guns, it happened, independent of us.

It works in a pure story, not in a quest.

 

[Suleverf]

It works in a pure story, not in a quest.

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Depends on the flavor of quest I think. There are some story beats that an author wishes to hit, which may vary with the routes chosen. In a narrative quest, there is always guidance of some degree towards these points as the author decides how the narrative unfolds based on the choices. People have different tastes for what is excessive and veers into railroading, but some degree of it exists even if in a subtle form. Else the quest should be run as a simulation rather than a narrative one.

The NT moment would not have presented much of a real choice as I recall, I don't think DoSaM form was consciously known to X at the time. Our party had no chance of beating NT, and so a choice being presented would have boiled down to taking the Godzilla threshold or dying. Should there have been a way to beat NT without that powerup, through a masterful plan? I don't know, I feel it would have been setting-breaking to do so. There's also the fact that we failed to catch NT up until the last minute in the first place so that threw a lot of time to prepare out the window.

For the Mikoto fight after Judgment Bird, there was a simple way to beat her without having to pull out Twilight. It was to shatter her gem when the vote came up. But no one wanted that, so I wouldn't count that as a failure from lack of choices mattering.

 

[MilitantBird]

I think that there are a number of ways in the City to save Madoka even if there's nothing but a head left of her. K Corp's serum can regenerate her entire body from the neck down since it works by reverting something to their original state, or we could put her brain into a full-body augmentation.

Actually, can K Corp's Serum work on dead people?

All of that relies on having that tech on hand, though. Can Homura's timestop keep her brain from decaying? If it were me, I'd put the head on ice to slow down the rate of brain damage.

 

[Shadowlord1003]

I full reality, we decided to split up the teams this way, of course there's not going to be much input from us. Everything here makes sense and if you look further back you will realize that yes most of this is due to our actions, because a lot of the last few chapters are running in parallel.

I keep telling you guys I told you so for letting ourselves get judged by a biased judge but no.

Literally everyone was voting to let Judgement Bird get the first hit on us (though the battle afterward went pretty well no? I don't remember us having to pull out anything special).

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You know I was wondering this too, why the hell did everyone think that taking a minimum of 150-200 PALE damage. (30-40 for base damage in lob corp. and the 500% modifier from Chesed's Meltdown) was a good choice?

Random thought here with all of the EGOs coming out does anyone know if humans can give out EGO Gifts?

 

[diplomacy]

"You're the same as those animals I was locked with, repeating their parts mindlessly and thinking they mattered. But I'm different. I'm better than that."

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I see we're really leaning into the whole "X and the Wizard are, from a certain objective POV, indistinguishable from each other". They're even saying the same type of stuff regarding their free will as abnormalities.


Re: plans not mattering, I don't like the idea of meta reasoning like "sometimes you have to give the voters a win" being an influence on the story at all. Additionally, I feel like our plans haven't even been good enough to warrant unmitigated wins anyway. I think the standard for that should generally be "galaxy-brained write-in that caught the QM off-guard". It happens rarely or never and that's fine, it's not like this is a plan quest. There aren't even any dice.

I promise to do my best to always finish any stories I start. I definitely won't be abandoning this story after putting so much time into it. Barring my untimely death I will be seeing anything I start to completion.

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I'll be sure to remind you of this post when the sequel movie comes out and ruins your meticulously-crafted headcanons on characterization. Unless you happen to finish the quest before that. Wink wink nudge nudge.

 

[Lepidoptera]

I'll be sure to remind you of this post when the sequel movie comes out and ruins your meticulously-crafted headcanons on characterization.

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Unless Walpurgis Rising does some retroactive editing of everyone's personalities, I'm not especially worried. The PMMM cast started out as their selves at the beginning of canon, but by now we're far enough from that that Rebellion will never happen. Now if ProjectMoon decides to show what Angela's been up to since Ruina, then I might have some trouble.

 

[diplomacy]

retroactive editing of everyone's personalities

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That's pretty much inevitable, I feel like. It's not like canon perfectly defines them in the first place, so any elaboration necessarily reduces the wiggle room you have available as a writer.

 

[Lepidoptera]

Maybe not in the main series, but there's a lot of spin-off material to flesh characters out. The Holy Quintet, at least. I'm confident in my ability to write accurately.

 

[Makuta]

Actually, can K Corp's Serum work on dead people?

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Limbus Company says no. In fact, one of the non-sinner deaths in Canto IV was by explosion, which was done specifically so K-Corp's Serum wouldn't be used on them.

 

[Nyarky]

I don't like the idea of meta reasoning like "sometimes you have to give the voters a win" being an influence on the story at all.

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It is the job of the QM to keep in mind that the game should be enjoyable to play, having meta reasonings is inevitable.

 

[questioningmeme]

It is the job of the QM to keep in mind that the game should be enjoyable to play, having meta reasonings is inevitable.

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It's applicable.

But I still you think you are making a mountain out of an anthill.

The QM don't really need to keep it in mind if the Reader/Gamer has been winning the entire run.

 

[Nyarky]

It's applicable.

But I still you think you are making a mountain out of an anthill.

The QM don't really need to keep it in mind if the Reader/Gamer has been winning the entire run.

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There is no need to keep in mind all the instances of winning and losing to make things feel as if vote matters and make the player feel clever.

As I said, framing matters, it matters a lot.

The way things are described can leave a far greater impression than what happened, you can have the protagonist have a big win against the big bad, but if all you describe is the empty feeling they have now that it's finished, and how they will never be able to return to a normal life, then the victory feels bittersweet (Lord of the ring does that one for Frodo).

On the other side, you can have most of the cast dead but if the last things to happen are the protagonist proudly declaring she is human and win by the power of friendship, then goes on to point out she lived happily ever after, the victory feels hopeful (Kazumi magica goes for that one).

Edit:

And for an instance of such framing:

Our latest vote was for Argalia to go help Homura, precisely to avoid this exact kind of situation.

Now, Argalia may reach her right after this update, but it's too late, so it makes the choice feels hollow.

 

[questioningmeme]

Our latest vote was for Argalia to go help Homura, precisely to avoid this exact kind of situation.

Now, Argalia may reach her right after this update, but it's too late, so it makes the choice feels hollow.

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Note: You don't actually know whether it's too late or not.

You are assuming things based on a cliffhanger.

The choice also wa made with the knowledge we had in mind at the time. You can say it's a bad choice in hindsight, but we sent Argalia over with the idea that it would've been a simple win, not to actually help them since we were confident only Mami truly needed help while Sayaka and Kyoko were in a worse situation.

We haven't even seen the result of that choice yet so again wait for the next chapter before you start fearmongering.

There is no need to keep in mind all the instances of winning and losing to make things feel as if vote matters and make the player feel clever.

As I said, framing matters, it matters a lot.

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Not keeping in mind the decisions of the past and only taking into account stuff in the present is short-sighted writing in my opinion.

Framing matters but again, it can also come in the form of making a mountain out of an anthill.

Since I still have yet to see why I should even agree with your point when most of the things you brought up are framing an anthill to be a mountain.

The way things are described can leave a far greater impression than what happened, you can have the protagonist have a big win against the big bad, but if all you describe is the empty feeling they have now that it's finished, and how they will never be able to return to a normal life, then the victory feels bittersweet (Lord of the ring does that one for Frodo).

On the other side, you can have most of the cast dead but if the last things to happen are the protagonist proudly declaring she is human and win by the power of friendship, then goes on to point out she lived happily ever after, the victory feels hopeful (Kazumi magica goes for that one).

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The first example is basically at the end of the story, for all accounts that doesn't really matter-

Actually, what's even the point of you bringing these two up? It literally doesn't relate to our topic of discussion.

Those are situations where the MCs lose a lot or face losses and win with equal measure.

We are winning way more often than we are inconvenienced so far.

Again.

I feel like this is a you problem.

 

[Nyarky]

You are assuming things based on a cliffhanger.

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See my point about general feelings.

Right now, this entire endeavor feels like a waste of time, and this impression is not going to magically disappear once the next scene begins, it will taint everything forward.

Not keeping in mind the decisions of the past and only taking into account stuff in the present is short-sighted writing in my opinion

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I didn't say that.

I said you don't need to keep everything in mind, particularly not a specific tally of wins and losses.

You need to keep the general feeling of whether or not things feel like wins or losses when applying the consequences to previous actions, not the details of the wins and losses, how they feel.

The first example is basically at the end of the story, for all accounts that doesn't really matter-

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It absolutely does, that the difference between a work being ultimately hopeful or being a tragedy.

Actually, what's even the point of you bringing these two up? It literally doesn't relate to our topic of discussion

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They are examples of how much framing can influence the feelings on a victory and its price.

Lord of the ring makes a big win feels like it cost too much, Kazumi goes for making a Pyrrhic victory feels like an unmitigated win.

The same method can be applied here.

Edit:

Let's stop this discussion right there, it's pretty clear we aren't going to agree.

 

[questioningmeme]

See my point about general feelings.

Right now, this entire endeavor feels like a waste of time, and this impression is not going to magically disappear once the next scene begins, it will taint everything forward.

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For you yeah.

Because you kinda forced yourself into this position.

Like, no one else is being as reactionary as you are.

We all know(believe) Madoka will be fine. As I said before, too many pieces require her to be alive to move forward.

You are digging yourself into the hole that this entire endeavor feels like a waste of time.

If you disagree with the vote say it, but don't suddenly call the entire thing pointless because you disagree with the consequences and start doomposting.

I didn't say that.

I said you don't need to keep everything in mind, particularly not a specific tally of wins and losses.

You need to keep the general feeling of whether or not things feel like wins or losses when applying the consequences to previous actions, not the details of the wins and losses, how they feel.

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See this is the problem, you are being too vague again. How they feel is such a subjective thing to say, how the hell can someone even take that as an advice?

Like sure, but this just sounds like a temporary complaint fearmongering based on a single chapter.

And your point is only applicable if you cherry-pick the previous 'everything' (only minor inconveniences) to support it.

Anyone can do that with anything as long as they have the feeling they dislike the current course of things.

It absolutely does, that the difference between a work being ultimately hopeful or being a tragedy.

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It doesn't because that is at the end of the story. We don't even know how Walpurgisnacht will be dealt with or who/what the final "Pinnacle" X will clash with is.

This isn't the end of the quest no matter how much fearmongering you do. The story so far has been one of a hopeful theme if you take into account the votes and the reactions of the characters to X's presence.

But even then, the example literally doesn't matter because it has a different context, and framing it as if it matters doesn't make it suddenly fit in the context.

They are examples of how much framing can influence the feelings on a victory and its price.

Lord of the ring makes a big win feel like it costs too much, Kazumi goes for making a Pyrrhic victory feels like an unmitigated win.

The same method can be applied here.

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Again, that's minor similarities at best because they are the end of the stories.

This isn't.

This is like, 3/4th the way through the current arc, this is part of the initial battle to claim the 4 markers.

Again, this is fearmongering.

Atleast wait until the next chapter before you bring up this conversation because I can't even discuss it with you without my brain constantly screaming to me that this is literally jumping the gun with fearmongering over what is obviously meant to be an evil cliffhanger that leaves you waiting for the next chapter.

 

[Nyarky]

About the fearmongering accusation:

Did I ever, at any point, tell that I thought Madoka was actually dead?

I didn't.

Even at the end of my first post, I said I expect Argus Principle, like I have been since we began this attack, and that requires Madoka to be alive.

Edit:

And I expect Argus Principle since the beginning because we chose to wait and increase the stress Madoka's in by doing so.

If we had gone right away I would give a fair chance to her getting EGO instead.

 

[questioningmeme]

About the fearmongering accusation:

Did I ever, at any point, tell that I thought Madoka was actually dead?

I didn't.

Even at the end of my first post, I said I expect Argus Principle, line I have been since we began this attack, and that requires Madoka to be alive.

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I'm not talking about Madoka being dead as the fearmongering.

I'm talking about this.

Because let's be honest, that's the only way left out of that clusterfuck at this point.

Nothing we do seems to ever matters, that is beginning to get pretty annoying.

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This is objectively incorrect and is backed only by your feelings and fearmongering (the first one you have been repeating for a while now regarding feelings and the second one is me saying that you are overreacting too early).

 

[Lepidoptera]

To clear things up, this result wasn't inevitable. While something bad was always going to happen in this arc, this specific something bad could have been avoided if you made different decisions. I wouldn't railroad like that, especially with something like this.

 

[questioningmeme]

Also, don't copy my whole flow like that.

This is way too dejavu to the time I had a similar meltdown in the Bloody Evolution quest.

 

[Nyarky]

While something bad was always going to happen in this arc,

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You do know that this doesn't help with accusations of what we do not mattering, right?

Us only being able to chose the flavor of pain and not being able to prevent it in the first place is exactly what I am talking about when I say our actions don't matter.