questioningmeme
Just be yourself
- Location
- River of Light
Being able to have Vergilius as an ALLY was a blast in Limbus.
I think they might be playing around with that unrepresented idea later on.
“Human Resources” Shouldn’t Be This Literal: A PMMM/ProjectMoon Quest
- Thread starter Lepidoptera
- Start date
-
- Tags
- library of ruina lobotomy corporation project moon puella magi madoka magica eldritch horror magical girl crossover eldritch protagonist female protagonist gore non-human protagonist suffering violence discussion is always good civ good decisions identity crises nuclear moth detected parenting powers activate
I think they might be playing around with that unrepresented idea later on.
I mean I agree mostly. It is really cool, other than Frost Splinter. Frost Splinter can go and burn horribly, because I swear, it took me and hour an a half to actually get anywhere on that stage, because my god does Angela not have blunt other than Rationality.
questioningmeme
Just be yourself
- Location
- River of Light
Ice Queen was easily the worst slog of Keter.
But me getting hit with a heavy case of "Reading Comprehension" moment didn't help with the Realization either.
But me getting hit with a heavy case of "Reading Comprehension" moment didn't help with the Realization either.
Lepidoptera
Mother of Monsters, Unverified Impuritas Civitatis
- Location
- Indeterminate Unknown
Ice Splinter isn't all that hard, Both Gold Rush and Da Capo are Blunt Mass Attacks. Use them one after the other on consecutive turns and that alone will kill all four ice block at once.
questioningmeme
Just be yourself
- Location
- River of Light
Oh, I know. That's what I realized after banging my very unfortunate head on reset after reset (where I reset the entire realization and had to slog through the first parts again, this happened multiple times before I realized you could just save on the fight by letting Angela die which I didn't realize before this since I did the same thing for the other realizations too).
After I figured that part out Keter became a much better challenge, though by this point I was very spent.
Last edited:
When I see content warnings, I usually roll my eyes a little, but it's probably appropriate in this case. I really, really hated reading that.
In fact, I hated it so much that I kinda just want to switch protagonists now. Voting for the actions of someone who's capable of being like, well, this, even if it's in a hypothetical, feels wrong somehow.
I know it's a bad end, and X is implied to be not quite sane here, but still. People have some things that make them mad beyond reason, and I suppose this is it for me.
questioningmeme
Just be yourself
- Location
- River of Light
Hey, join the club.
I remember my days back in Naron's early parts in the RWBY/LoRBinah fic.
Lepidoptera
Mother of Monsters, Unverified Impuritas Civitatis
- Location
- Indeterminate Unknown
It does feel a bit odd to respond to "I hated that" with "I'm glad you did", but that was very much the feeling I was going for. I was admittedly unsure of how good the chapter was especially regarding Homura, but it seems like all the important parts are working as normal.
DoSaM has appeared once in the main story for a spectacle fight and then twice before now in sidestories where things were implied, but I never really got across how dangerous an Abnormality like her would be. I know not everyone here has played Lobotomy Corporation all the way through and so hasn't had it drilled in that toying with Abnormalities gets people killed the same way X has, and having her just say why she doesn't want to be an Abnormality doesn't make up for the lack of showing it. So I'm taking these bad endings as an opportunity to show off some worst-case scenarios.
As a reader that didn't quite get it, was the dehumanisation as "my agent" and possibly changing Homura to view X as her mother again the issue here?
(Well, aside from the violence, but that's ...not exactly new in either setting or in this crossover)
questioningmeme
Just be yourself
- Location
- River of Light
Probably? Might also be that DoSaM was way crueler than X in the way she approached Homura. Sure a harsh and straightforward beatdown was needed, but there's a dark undertone to it all when it's DoSaM and not X that's giving it out.
The dichotomy of X's fairly gentle and motherly approach in comparison to DoSaM's brutal family violence (She couldn't beat the Cycle Allegations) is a fairly big whiplash.
The X we know probably wouldn't do much more than try to restraint Homura somehow, and be a punching bag for most of the fight. But Bad End X over there was straight up running the whole Keter Realization train of pain on poor Homura.
Lepidoptera
Mother of Monsters, Unverified Impuritas Civitatis
- Location
- Indeterminate Unknown
Homura having mentally separated X, who cared for her and the Daughter of the Sun and Moon, the Abnormality currently trying to kill her, isn't actually any trickery on DoSaM's part. It's just a consequence of Homura's perception of the situation along with how X tends to think about herself as an Abnormality as separate from herself as a human getting passed down to her. This separation does exist to some extent, as while the core of DoSaM's argument against Homura is something X might feel she wouldn't have presented it in that way and she wouldn't have tried to tear Homura down so much. Her calling people agents is just Abnormality-think, as while X is normally framing her experiences relative to the Facility DoSaM just doesn't differentiate at all.
I know, right? I couldn't even participate in that one. Given the quest's premise, all my votes couldn't be anything but write-ins that said "[X] Die". Which is clearly obnoxious towards everyone else. It's either that, or strat voting 100% of the time, but that's just not good for the soul.
See, that's not a sentiment I can really understand myself.
Why would the protagonist begin a monster be necessarily a bad thing? As far as I'm concerned, just turn off empathy and enjoy the ride.
But clearly that's not the common reaction, as vilain protagonists, truly villainous ones, are incredibly rare, so I guess most people can't do that in the same way.
Not to say I don't have triggers that make me get out of the ride too, just more tolerance for some particular actions, I think.
Funnily enough, I still don't appreciate a number of truly villainous protagonists, except it tends to be due to boredom at them being cardboard cutouts and not at their heinous actions.
Why would the protagonist begin a monster be necessarily a bad thing? As far as I'm concerned, just turn off empathy and enjoy the ride.
But clearly that's not the common reaction, as vilain protagonists, truly villainous ones, are incredibly rare, so I guess most people can't do that in the same way.
Not to say I don't have triggers that make me get out of the ride too, just more tolerance for some particular actions, I think.
Funnily enough, I still don't appreciate a number of truly villainous protagonists, except it tends to be due to boredom at them being cardboard cutouts and not at their heinous actions.
questioningmeme
Just be yourself
- Location
- River of Light
Mainly because Villains aren't all that easy to make engaging as protagonists. We get to see them too much.
They usually run into 4 problems
1. Humans tend to usually become attached for the smallest reason (i.e see Aura from Frieren becoming a top 10 favorite character after appearing for like 1 chapter/1 episode)
People don't like reading a story with characters that are gonna unceremoniously die in like 10 chapters because the protagonist kills/enslaves/whatever evil deeds everyone especially if those characters are designed to be liked.
2. People don't really want to spend their time with something that constantly loses engagement.
For point 2, it's because of how the Villain protagonist usually operates. I mean come on, let's not kid ourselves here, a truly villainous protagonist will require the author to haul ass and lock in when writing the other characters in that world. Usually, they also need to make the actions of the villain have consequences.
Otherwise, it becomes boring, there's fun in watching videos of pro RPG players, but they aren't really mainstream.
That has a problem of running into point 1. And even if the author makes it so that the villain protagonist gets their comeuppance-
3. The people who like a villain protagonist that way are usually in it for the power fantasy and hate seeing them lose. Especially if it's stupid.
This one is particularly bad. Mainly because most people who write villainous protagonists usually write them too strong and get stuck in a corner of needing a literal Mary Sue to beat them sometimes.
And yeah that comes to the final point.
4. We see assholes in real life manipulate the system to shit on people too often. No one is gonna be able to just turn off their empathy when they already are getting screwed over or are in a similar position.
And if they can, you run into problem 2.
These reasons are why you don't usually see a villainous protagonist become mainstream. And also the reason why it's way easier to write a fanfic with a villain protagonist or a story that utilizes already existing characters.
And I'm assuming we are talking about the VILLAIN protagonist here since you mentioned a truly villainous protagonist. Someone like Loli Hitler from Tanya the Evil or Adolf Ooal Gown from Overlord.
And even then those two series have their problems too.
Not saying it's not possible, but just saying that it's not gonna get that big outside of the power-fantasy crowd. Who will literally gobble up even the dumpster fire series so the effort isn't as needed.
Last edited:
Well, the first example that comes to my mind is actually Light yagami from death note.
He may be a mass murdering psychopath, but at least he has style.
questioningmeme
Just be yourself
- Location
- River of Light
He's a prime example of a Villainous protagonist done right.
However, his advantage is that he's not a strength-wise Villainous Protagonist. That is not easy to write. The whole "Smarter than the Writer" problem comes to mind.
His author skipped over the Power-Fantasy weak point and is just a genuinely engaging protagonist + Point 2: The Author did haul ass and made one of the most engaging antagonists in anime in the form of L.
Still requires genuinely good writing skills, and a fairly complex power system in the death note and Shikigami, but still.
He's a good example though.
But he also isn't quite "Kick Puppy and Eat Babies" level evil either. And it doesn't take from my point that unless the villain protagonist is written extraordinarily well, not a lot of people will be engaged.
Another example would be Pre-"NO! I DON'T WANT THAT! MIKASA BEING IN LOVE WITH ANOTHER MAN!? I WANT HER TO BE IN LOVE WiTH ME AND NO-ONE ELSE! FOR 10 YEARS! ATLEAST!" Eren Yeager.
His reasoning while dark, was clear and logical, the setting supported his logic enough that the reader would have reasons to side with him over his oppositions, and have the emotional connections to prioritize his goals over that of the supporting cast.
Of course, once again, this one also run into point 3 and a bit of point 2, not for power fantasy in the former (though certain people do certainly use him for that), but for the way he was defeated and how the story was ended, and with the problem of the whole world being undeveloped due to the Author's rush to end the story on the number 139 for some reasons make it difficult to judge him without bias.
Last edited:
Not much to add to what questioningmeme said. One other thing: "enjoying the ride" is generally possible, but specifically for quests it's almost an oxymoron. The empathy is the whole point of roleplaying!
Not really?
Empathy with the protagonist, yes, but in the meaning of *putting yourself in their shoes*, so if they don't care about other people in the world, you can remove that part.
I mean, one of the characters I played in a game was an antimutant biggot whose old job was recapturing escaped slaves and who definitely didn't leave out of any moral dilemmas. I didn't have any problems enjoying the game nonetheless.
(Now, if only my teammates hadn't been such promutants goody two shoes, that would have been better)
Edit:
And to give an idea, my second character in that same game was a scientist with the goal of giving boosting drugs to my teammates, before slipping in a mind control part in them after they had begun trusting her enough.
She unfortunately died before I could do anything, drowning… at the top of the himalaya, in a dungeon, one of the few places not under the ocean in the post apocalypse world we were playing in.
Last edited:
questioningmeme
Just be yourself
- Location
- River of Light
That's the problem Diplomacy was referring to.
If they don't care about the world, but the roleplayer does, why should the roleplayer, who isn't really under obligation to engage here, care about the protagonist?
You cannot enjoy the ride if you dislike the vehicle you will be riding in.
If in the first place, empathy with the protagonist is impossible, i.e. let's say some kind of R&p1st or P3d0 monsters, why should the player even bother to give such a monstrous protagonist any time of day?
It's easier when it's just you. But in a quest with many people, non-mainstream stuff remain non-mainstream.
Trying to empathize with a hateful viewpoint is rather tiresome, therefore I shall not engage. It's as simple as that.
If it was so impossible to enjoy playing a mass murdering psycho, the GTA series wouldn't be so popular and godgames wouldn't have such a reputation as *enjoy torturing your worshippers* simulators.
If it was impossible to have a group of people discussing morally dubious things in a game as a community while giving ideas, there wouldn't be such things as the mermaid farm discussion on bay12 (or the training methods for child soldiers, or puppy waterfalls methods to make your dwarves care less, or…. Bay 12 is rife with those kind of things), or evil campaigns in role playing games.
Yes a vilain character will have part of the readers flee, but it will also attract those that enjoy playing them, so you can still have a quest with that premise, it's just a different audience.
Edit:
Actually, I even have a perfect example of the fact that a quest can have a psycho protagonist:
A destiny of strife.
That's a hollow quest in bleach, and the protagonist very much is a monster in this one.
If it was impossible to have a group of people discussing morally dubious things in a game as a community while giving ideas, there wouldn't be such things as the mermaid farm discussion on bay12 (or the training methods for child soldiers, or puppy waterfalls methods to make your dwarves care less, or…. Bay 12 is rife with those kind of things), or evil campaigns in role playing games.
Yes a vilain character will have part of the readers flee, but it will also attract those that enjoy playing them, so you can still have a quest with that premise, it's just a different audience.
Edit:
Actually, I even have a perfect example of the fact that a quest can have a psycho protagonist:
A destiny of strife.
That's a hollow quest in bleach, and the protagonist very much is a monster in this one.
Last edited:
questioningmeme
Just be yourself
- Location
- River of Light
If we talk specifically about video games, that is even more difficult to judge as Video games are primarily about Fun>Story.
In the first place, empathizing with the protagonist takes second place to the power fantasy, you are free to revisit the points I brought up before.
You don't empathize with anyone other than yourself in such cases with stories poor games. And in the GTA series, it's mainly about seeing the fun of driving a giant truck into a military base for explosions, cool vehicles, good gunplay, etc.
Not a lot of people are even aware GTA has a plot you follow outside of the power fantasy of being a thug with infinite revives.
Not exactly possible in a fictional quest where you wait for weeks on end between updates, which requires you to engage much more with the characters and actually have substantially more consequences when well-written.
I suppose this would be a subsection of Point 3.
Once again, those require the game masters to be catering to a specific group and for said groups to be invested in the topic in the first place. Not exactly mainstream (though that applies to most fanfic-quest-based projects, this is a niche thing not usually in sight of mainstream media).
You will, however, have to elaborate more on what you mean in your examples. They aren't exactly the clearest, how big are these evil campaigns? What even is the mermaid farm discussion? Is it a quest or just a discussion?
If it's the former, that is quite a strange crowd of people. Is it a monster girl fetish kind of quest then?
If it's the discussion...That is merely a discussion, not exactly a story or a quest now is it?
Once again, you affirm my belief no? As I said before, as long as it is impossible for a roleplayer to empathize or fit themselves in the character's shoes, they will simply not engage with that quest.
That was Diplomancy's point.
As entertaining and perhaps even enlightening this conversation may be (I do see the arguments on both sides - to an extent this sort of thing is at least partially a matter of framing), surely it's gone a little off topic by now?
No, Diplomancy's point was that it was impossible to enjoy playing a character like that in the first place because you can't empathize with them, that you can't *enjoy the ride*.
Players can well *enjoy the ride*.
questioningmeme
Just be yourself
- Location
- River of Light
I see, Diplomacy should have clarified that. I assumed it was referring to themselves given that they were the subject of discussion.
I agree. It'd be best to shelve it for now.
- Location
- Earth
I guess I am late to the party for this one. But as the one who wrote the Quest that began this whole tangent, I feel I should add my two cents.
Villain protagonists are hard to write well. Of course you can just make them do the most foul things you can imagine to squick out the audience, but that does rarely yield high quality or engagement. In my opinion, the intriguing part about them is that even a villain can have nuance; lines they do not cross, people they are close to, hobbies, and so on. Things that make them human again, even though their actions paint them as monstrous.
Where I stand, a good villain protagonist is someone who encorporates both sides of this. But at the same time, their actions are not for everyone; I can fully understand why not everyone is comfortable reading about such, or playing it.
Binah is a great example of such a villain. She is a sadistic, manipulative woman who loves to prod and poke at people to see what happens, even if they break in the process. She kills without mercy or remorse. But she is also genuinely interested in seeing the stories of others proceed, for better or for worse. She is fond of tea in particular, she likes to talk philosophy with others and see their points of view. She is unashamedly herself, even as she acknowledges the horrific acts she has wrought.
Basically, there is enough human to the monster that the audience is intrigued by her, rather than disgusted.
Villain protagonists are hard to write well. Of course you can just make them do the most foul things you can imagine to squick out the audience, but that does rarely yield high quality or engagement. In my opinion, the intriguing part about them is that even a villain can have nuance; lines they do not cross, people they are close to, hobbies, and so on. Things that make them human again, even though their actions paint them as monstrous.
Where I stand, a good villain protagonist is someone who encorporates both sides of this. But at the same time, their actions are not for everyone; I can fully understand why not everyone is comfortable reading about such, or playing it.
Binah is a great example of such a villain. She is a sadistic, manipulative woman who loves to prod and poke at people to see what happens, even if they break in the process. She kills without mercy or remorse. But she is also genuinely interested in seeing the stories of others proceed, for better or for worse. She is fond of tea in particular, she likes to talk philosophy with others and see their points of view. She is unashamedly herself, even as she acknowledges the horrific acts she has wrought.
Basically, there is enough human to the monster that the audience is intrigued by her, rather than disgusted.