Would you Distort or manifest EGO?


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Distorions always have victims, even if that victim is themselves. As humans who have become warped by delusion and desire it is in their nature, a distortion which has no victims and which does not do harm to anyone, anything, or itself is by definition impossible.

That's what led them to distort, what I am asking is not about that, it is if they can get out of the bad parts without reverting, I am not interested in making them EGOists, they already have power, why would we replace it?

That and I have an agenda of undistorting everyone for that 100% happy-ending goal.

I already made quite clear I am not interested in that, if there is any way to keep them as distortions while still having them happy and non-psychotic, I am taking it.

Anyway, update!

glowing a bright and presumably healthy green.

Pictured here, healthy green:


Gah. You've been overthinking this.

Nah, you just spend what probably was at least a minute looking at a door in anticipation and finding every excuses possibles to not go through it. :V

…Well, if you'd known that person for years, that would actually be pretty awkward.

As someone who tends to never asks names nor retain them easily on first meetings, I can tell you that yes, yes it is incredibly awkward to ask your colleagues of one or two years their names, can't imagine how it would be when it's ten thousand years.

"X, then. While we are on the subject of you, we have some questions regarding your current state of being." Yesod continues, now taking much the same tone he'd use when requesting your analysis of a new Abnormality.

Because it's precisely what he's doing.

"My kids need bedtime stories, and I don't know any that don't involve dismemberment at some point or another. Anyone got anything they can share?"
Important note: I am not sure Yuma would have any problems if you continued with the dismemberments laden stories.

In the end, Philip loses his immunity to Burn and literally burns himself to death in his final phase, dying not just in battle but because he never actually got over any of his feelings, and when faced with them one last time he can't stand it.

What I'm wondering is if we can make something similar (but less painful) happens and still have the person stays a Distortion, just one that is actually properly adjusted?

I hold no interest in the human form, so by extension I am more interested in their mental health than making them *human* again.
 
That's what led them to distort, what I am asking is not about that, it is if they can get out of the bad parts without reverting, I am not interested in making them EGOists, they already have power, why would we replace it?
It seems like they cannot get the bad things out of them without undistorting because the distorting is literally their bad mental loop affecting them on a physical level, When you remove the bad parts, they revert back to normal, because when the foundation of this monstrous form is not there anymore. Everything else just crumbles apart.
Also we had this discussion before. There's no point in discussing this again.
 
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I already made quite clear I am not interested in that, if there is any way to keep them as distortions while still having them happy and non-psychotic, I am taking it.
That doesn't really matter.

I don't care about the form they take so much as being happy.

However, this discussion needs not repeat itself as all is already said and done. Their happiness comes first, whatever form said happiness takes on isn't up to you or me to decide.

We are discussing ways to quickly give them therapy via physical actions instead of usual talking therapy. To me the distortion is a state of mental instability, I don't really care what form they take, whether it's human, a dragon, a printing machine, a chicken mascot, or a giant pile of corpses.

I'm undistorting them. They can be whatever form they want afterward with their now no longer either self-harming or harmful mindset.
On the subject of fighting DISTORTIONS, beating a person into submission isn't a fast track to solving their mental issues. Most of the Distortions we've seen just die when they're defeated.
A tiny mistake there. Distortions not Abnormalities.
Of course, however, during Meltdown/Realizations/The Recent Limbus Distortion, the process of a Meltdown Suppression/Realizations/Distortion Resolvation, can give us a much much greater insight into how to undistort someone.

Outis wouldn't have been able to talk sense into the chicken store owner had the Door combat sequence not occurred for example. Angela and Roland venting out their anger allowed the patron librarians to understand their pain much much better and allowed them to empathize and explain things to them clearer, Ayin resolving the anger/doubts/tests the Sephiroth had at him allowed both him and them to learn important lessons and moved on.

It is much less a process of solving it through physical violence and more of letting the Distortion vent their emotions out in a physical way. Because negative emotions come into physical form, one can mistake them for violence to resolve mental trauma.

I am not talking about fighting them in combat. Because that's just stupid.

I am talking about 'fighting' them in a Meltdown/Realization/Resolvation way. Where we confront them in a moment of emotional distress or their own mental scape (like the Chicken Restaurant owner), and help them resolve their troubles through close mental interactions.

Using the chicken example again. We didn't kill the Chickenman. We just held him down and did a more in-depth therapy through a variety of factors:

1. Feed him food that resonated with him. (Outis' cooking while lesser than Meursault, resonated with the chickenman because Outis cooked with a desire to please someone, like the chickenman once did with his mother)
2. Enter his mental scape and confront his memories to better understand him.
3. Beat him again.
4. Therapy power.

This closely followed the pattern X have more experience with through her own journey and Angela's:

1. Dig up emotional responses so the subject resonates with the therapist/their environment (From the Sephiroth's grudge, trauma, and desire [Asiyah, Briah, and Atziluth], to Angela and Roland's grudge, trauma, and doubts).
2. Engage in a physical manifestation of their mind (The Meltdown of the Facility, the Realizations of the Library, and the Spicy Restaurant Dungeon).
3. Defeat them in order to subdue their aggressive feelings (The Sephiroth's anger, demand, and needs against Ayin, Angela, and Roland's frustrations, The restaurant owner's hatred of his recipe being ruined)
4. Therapy power (An understanding was reached between Ayin and the Sephiroth coming out better afterward, Angela and co. understand each other better, and again, coming out with a wider insight, the restaurant owner understanding what was important, and the reason why he needed to keep going).

That is what I was referring to when talking about a so-called "Realizations/Meltdown" method.

In every single one, there was some kind of catalyst to connect with the Distorted target. Whether it's the Facility of Ayin, the Library of Angela, or the speculated Golden Boughs of Dante.

So the question is, whether or not it should be something to be pursued to resolve problematic distortions. And whether or not DoSaM can serve as the same catalyst as the Facility did for Ayin, and the Library did for Angela n Co.

For example, for Argalia and other foreign distortions, we got 0 ideas about their trauma, or at least X herself doesn't have any idea (The option of strapping them into a table a Lobotomying them to understand them better is still there), so the process of distorting them through talk is going to be difficult.

We are aware of what Homura, and Kyoko went through, X can understand them, but she has yet to really get involved personally to the point of a Meltdown/Realization where both side basically project their emotions through a catalyst (The abnormalities assist both the Librarians and Angela/Roland for example, the Sinners encountering the other [?] events in the dungeon, etc).

This is a method to diagnose and help those who would be impossible to help otherwise. We aren't gonna be able to sit Argalia down (or any other future aggressive Distortion) and undistort them without butting heads.

We are lucky so far that Homura is extremely passive as a distortion (i.e she isn't super harmful to herself and she isn't harmful at all to the people around her), Kyoko is on the nicer side since X managed to get some talk through to her, so she's more of an inverse Philip being an incomplete Distortion instead.

But we should start contemplating other options going forward, given that the Adult herself has more allies under her commands and we will need to help them too.
 
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That's what led them to distort, what I am asking is not about that, it is if they can get out of the bad parts without reverting, I am not interested in making them EGOists, they already have power, why would we replace it?
A Distortion is the manifestation of a persons Distorted mental state, to be more precise in Distortion Detective Moses observes all residents of the city except for EGOists having a Distortion in the incubation stage, the physical manifestation is just when that mindset leaves the incubation stage, and the semi-active stage(?), and then starts manifesting physically.

Their mindset is the cause of the Distortion. the victims mindset + the Light allowing for easier manifestation of the Human soul, helping the victim through this naturally cures the Distortion. The reason i used Morgoth as an example is that "Power" they have may be their own power, but they do not control it it controls them, they are subject to it and are hurting, helping them means giving it up just like right up until Morgoth's final moment he could've be redeemed if he gave up in his quest for complete domination.

Edit: And like I said a Distortion with none of the downsides is an EGO, the victim doesn't have to become an EGOists if they don't want to, but they are both manifestations of the human soul in the first place.

Also your position seemingly acts on the assumption that giving people power is a good thing?, it's not power is power, it depends on how you use it, and you shouldn't give to people so crazy their madness warps reality around them.

And now an Example in two parts:

Madoka: "Are you okay akemi-san?"

Homura: "Madoka, Rabu"

and

Madoka: "Are you okay akemi-san?"

Homura:"I AM THE DEMONIC GOD QUEEN OF REALITY ALL SHALL BOW TO ME!"
 
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Also your position seemingly acts on the assumption that giving people power is a good thing?

Not exactly, my base assumption is that the base human state is flawed and we should strive to rise above it, not necessarily the same thing.

For example, I would be all for becoming the slave race of Rogue servitors in Stellaris, because the robots are inherently better at taking care of us than others humans in my eyes, and they're happy doing it too, not like our politicians who wants it partially for power.

Or in short:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gIMZ0WyY88

But less about becoming specifically a synth, but more about reducing the problems with our bodies and such.
 
1. Dig up emotional responses so the subject resonates with the therapist/their environment (From the Sephiroth's grudge, trauma, and desire [Asiyah, Briah, and Atziluth], to Angela and Roland's grudge, trauma, and doubts).
2. Engage in a physical manifestation of their mind (The Meltdown of the Facility, the Realizations of the Library, and the Spicy Restaurant Dungeon).
3. Defeat them in order to subdue their aggressive feelings (The Sephiroth's anger, demand, and needs against Ayin, Angela, and Roland's frustrations, The restaurant owner's hatred of his recipe being ruined)
4. Therapy power (An understanding was reached between Ayin and the Sephiroth coming out better afterward, Angela and co. understand each other better, and again, coming out with a wider insight, the restaurant owner understanding what was important, and the reason why he needed to keep going).
Well, I don't know. Creating a moment of emotional vulnerability and then forcibly, non-consensually manipulating someone's beliefs and feelings using mysterious emotional magic - that sure sounds like (mental) violence to me. Having a big moment of understanding with the person you just changed to suit you better does not make it somehow okay.

If there is, in fact, no esoteric stuff going on (and I sure hope so, otherwise Library of Ruina's realizations are nothing but a gradual destruction of Roland and Angela's free will), and destroying the physical manifestation of someone's [insert emotion here] doesn't literally make them feel it less, then I don't see the point of this conversation in the first place. It just comes down to doing exactly what X has been doing so far - which is letting them naturally amass the experiences and events they need to contradict their existing skewed perspective. Sometimes this takes the form of simply talking to them (which is also experience of a sort), sometimes it means taking them on witch hunts, etc.

Also, independent of my other complaints, I'm pretty sure therapists are heavily discouraged from emotional entanglement, and in fact they are supposed to have no personal agenda in the subject's life, which Ayin, the Sephirot and X clearly have. Which is why "therapy" is the wrong word to use here, in my opinion.

Also your position seemingly acts on the assumption that giving people power is a good thing?, it's not power is power and you shouldn't give to people so crazy their madness warps reality around them.
I'd like to add that giving power to people who are literally called EGOists also doesn't sound great in general. Thanks, Ayin!

But we aren't dealing with a completely generic Distortion in a vacuum here, and I think they should be judged on a case-by-case basis - like your example Homura, who is, really, far from the worst person you could give power to.
 
I'd like to add that giving power to people who are literally called EGOists also doesn't sound great in general. Thanks, Ayin!

But we aren't dealing with a completely generic Distortion in a vacuum here, and I think they should be judged on a case-by-case basis - like your example Homura, who is, really, far from the worst person you could give power to.
And now an Example in two parts:

Madoka: "Are you okay akemi-san?"

Homura: "Madoka, Rabu"

and

Madoka: "Are you okay akemi-san?"

Homura:"I AM THE DEMONIC GOD QUEEN OF REALITY ALL SHALL BOW TO ME!"


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXzQbnRfMBM


Homura is a lot of things, in love, a child soldier, but a person i'd trust with more power? Right now when in cannon her negative emotions caused Rebellion's ending and her to go full demon god queen of the universe? no, i don't trust her with power, why would i?

And also homura's current mental state in this quest is really unhealthy and the girl needs help, and yeah our girls aren't as dangerous because we are here, and we as X come from a position of massive privilege when dealing with distortions, remember moses almost died saving the Fixer's daughter because resolving that distortion means getting skewerd by evil mermaids.

And yeah EGOists aren't the best but who is? they are fully realized people capable of both good and bad, Unlike Distortions who are insane and dangerous almost indiscriminately! why not have them be an EGOists they aren't even giving up any power and can theoretically keep a bodily inhuman form if they want? and we literally see YuRia do that as a defense mechanism in DD.

Edit:
Not exactly, my base assumption is that the base human state is flawed and we should strive to rise above it, not necessarily the same thing.

Sure that's fine, but why does that require being a Distortion? EGO gets you the same thing without turning into a insane monster who kills people on mass with pianos and chickens? and if they want a inhuman body they can have it if they want it nothing about EGO excludes having body mods or an alternate body plan.
 
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Well, I don't know. Creating a moment of emotional vulnerability and then forcibly, non-consensually manipulating someone's beliefs and feelings using mysterious emotional magic - that sure sounds like (mental) violence to me. Having a big moment of understanding with the person you just changed to suit you better does not make it somehow okay.
I mean, yeah? I'm pretty sure this is the 4th time you are doing this song and dance again.

I'm not arguing for all therapists to start beating the shit out of people using emotionally charged meta-power and that Ayin is an amazing saint for developing the shock therapy method either. I'm just saying that X should try to pursue that in the future when dealing with hard-to-deal Distortions.

Like Argalia.

Do you see the possibility of somehow the votes actually going to help Argalia out in such a way? If you can somehow convince everyone here to vote for actually spend the time to help out other Distortions like how we are helping our daughters, I'd be grateful.
 
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Not exactly, my base assumption is that the base human state is flawed and we should strive to rise above it, not necessarily the same thing.
There are so many kinds of transhumanism that are superior to Distortions. Why, why are you supporting the option that has "mental breakdown" as a necessary prerequisite for manifestation?
 
He's not arguing for that. Nyarky is just confused about the fact that no one here is arguing against transhumanism. We are just talking about another method for mental treatment for the distorted.
 
Also, independent of my other complaints, I'm pretty sure therapists are heavily discouraged from emotional entanglement, and in fact they are supposed to have no personal agenda in the subject's life, which Ayin, the Sephirot and X clearly have. Which is why "therapy" is the wrong word to use here, in my opinion.

I think it's the case too, can't confirm, but seems to be what I remember, *conflict of interest* is very much something they should avoid.

Sure that's fine, but why does that require being a Distortion? EGO gets you the same thing without turning into a insane monster who kills people on mass with pianos and chickens? and if they want a inhuman body they can have it if they want it nothing about EGO excludes having body mods or an alternate body plan.

EGO is just cool tools at the end of the day, Distortions are where true transhumanism lie, did you ever see an actual case of Ego leading to the alternates body plans you talk about? Because I am pretty sure there are none, just weapons, armors, buildings, or other external things, only distortions actually change the body.

Do you see the possibility of somehow the votes actually going to help Argalia out in such a way? If you can somehow convince everyone here to vote for actually spending the time to help out other Distortions like how we are helping our daughters, I'd be grateful.

Still slightly annoyed we didn't take Leonie with us, sure, let her stays with the insane megalomaniac serial killer, everything will be fine, we definitely can't take care of a girl that is very explicitly low maintenance....

There are so many kinds of transhumanism that are superior to Distortions. Why, why are you supporting the option that has "mental breakdown" as a necessary prerequisite for manifestation?

*Sigh*

I already explained that one, but let me do it again:

I am less for Distortions in particular as I am not against letting them be once they already are, on the condition they are truly happy.

If we have a way to make them get the same without the trauma (no, not EGO, it's not the same to me)? Yes, go for it.

Nor am I pushing into making the girls into distortions.

I am explicitly saying that *in the case they already are distortions* then, *if we can find a way for them to not have the mental trauma anymore while still staying distortions*, I am going to encourage this path.

The city is mostly against true transhumanism, what with the restriction on *looking human* and all that, so their technology is not going to make me that happy, I am more for full on Eclipse phase than the lukewarm Cyberpunk.
 
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Still slightly annoyed we didn't take Leonie with us, sure, let her stays with the insane megalomaniac serial killer, everything will be fine, we definitely can't take care of a girl that is very explicitly low maintenance....
Given that Argalia is actually letting Leonie practice her power utilizing it as a place for him and her to live in, I don't think it's actually too bad to leave her with him even more now.
We should wait before judging whether or not he's horrible at caring for her.
I mean, the guy managed to get the ensemble to work together for as long as they did. He definitely isn't bad at caring for people.

Isn't Leonie being low maintenance more reason to trust him with her even? He literally would have to try to mess up with her, and so far, in both of the short moments we got with him caring for her, he hasn't displayed any reasons for us to think that he's trying to convert her into a murderer or a fellow megalomaniac.

Why I would say, he's probably teaching her how to knit an "I am your fan!" sweater with X's face on it right now.
 
EGO is just cool tools at the end of the day, Distortions are where true transhumanism lie, did you ever see an actual case of Ego leading to the alternates body plans you talk about? Because I am pretty sure there are none, just weapons, armors, buildings, or other external things, only distortions actually change the body.
My point being it's still possible for a person to surpass their normal form and limits utilizing EGO and YuRia literally has a teddy bear for a body in distortion detective because she was forced out of her main one when Dias and the Udjat attempted to forcefully Distort her and Moses, why does surpassing your normal human limits require an inhuman form? Roland had a human form but had many augments, Kali was heavily augmented and had EGO, Vergil is heavily augmented and has ego. They have all surpassed their base human forms they just keep the body plan they prefer.

also
I am less for Distortions in particular as I am not against letting them be once they already are, on the condition they are truly happy.

If we have a way to make them get the same without the trauma (no, not EGO, it's not the same to me)? Yes, go for it.

Nor am I pushing into making the girls into distortions.

I am explicitly saying that *in the case they already are distortions* then, *if we can find a way for them to not have the mental trauma anymore while still staying distortions*, I am going to encourage this path.

Distortion is literally an unstable mental state that manifests and takes over a person! and mind you these "Happy" Distortions we do see are the ensemble, deluded madmen trying to remake the world and force their distorted will on to others, healing means not being a distortion any more and unlocking EGO if they are willing to become an EGOists.

Also why does true tanshumanism
true transhumanism, what with the restriction on *looking human* and all that

Require having an inhuman body plan? the city/head is fine with humans taking on an inhuman form, the carnival, and cyborgs are explicitly allowed, alongside Distorions, EGOs, and Abnormalities which all fall under the heads definition of human due to being spiritually human i.e from the Well and being born as human, the head just hates AI, but are fine with an AI like angela if it becomes human.
Zena literally spells this out in her monologue at the end of LoR.

Edit
Zena Quotes said:
"The sole reason is you Angela" -Zena

"An entity that isn't human entertained thoughts only a human should have" -Zena

"You cannot become human if you are not born as one" -Zena

"When i thought you might turn into a human at the end, you let go of all you had at the critical moment" -Zena

"Had you fully become a human at the culmination of the ordeal, the City would have been more willing to accept you, alas." -Zena

"A machine with a heart has no place in the City" -Zena

"How contemptable that your line of thought is so dangerously close to what a human must aspire to reach"-Zena

"By all manner of means, distortions are one of the many aspects of humanity. Their existence is not wholly wrongful from our point of view. It was simply time for them to emerge." -Zena

"Subduing the singularity was not our priority. If I had to elaborate, you, Angela, were the impurity that had to be cleansed. The singularity of manifesting the human mind and ideals physically?(Light) Indeed I won't deny that said power needed to be attuned. An art that brings the human mind into the physical realm is without a doubt an unpleasant idea. It was certain to be a subject of scorn woe, we did not mind allowing it to foster. It would eventually blend into the City in a fitting way, even though it may not be the most desirable for us to see. That's how the City and humans have always been. On the other hand, the very concept of your design displeased us to the core. Indeed you were the definitive reason that caused us to make a direct move. The sacrifices and tragedies that took place in that laboratory in the outskirts were irrelevant. Those were not so different to the everyday occasions of the city"

turning yourself into a mecha-squid and using suicide teleporters like in eclipse phase is legal and totally fine with the head. people just don't do it much because most people don't want to be mecha-squid and use suicide teleporters
 
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ANYWAY, you cannot get rit of the bad parts and keep being a distortion because the bad parts is the base of said distortion, if you get rid of it, they just undistort, theres no being a distortion and having a good mind set, it simply doesn't work.
BUT, there is egos where people turns into other non-human things.
like that the teddy bear workshop girl in DD.
ALSO, if we cannot find a weak point in their mental loop to enter(like Outis did with that pizza. she found a weak point in distortions mind.) ....something bad might happen.
yes, i still don't trust lobotomy, its name just makes me feel bad, really bad.
like we are just forcebly opeing a way into ones head, there will be consequences.
 
Again, I am not arguing this for the girls. Who we can already handle kinda well without needing strong tactics like that.

I am saying that we should attempt to do this to other Distortions that are more hardheaded than that. Like Argalia, the ensemble, and any potential distortions in the future that aren't so inclined to sit down and talk to X.
 
I'm still going to argue for Argalia to get normal talk like we would with our kids of course!

Just that we should be aware of the opportunity when the time comes so that we don't get stuck in the same doom and gloom we did with Nothing There.
 
SPEAKING OF NOTHING THERE!
we still haven't heard from them yet after the fight right? wonder how is his thinking coming along, hopes its going allright for her.
 
They are busy being Eternal Mimicry while the actual Nothing There...well, we would've needed to visit Gebura's floor and ask her about it.

By the way @Lepidoptera is it intentional that the chapter has 0 vote?
 
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That being said, fighting a Distortion does typically require you to engage with them emotionally in some way. I think my favorite example of this is the Crying Children's second fight, which involves repeatedly forcing Philip's emotions back to the surface and breaking down the emotional barriers he's built up. In the end, Philip loses his immunity to Burn and literally burns himself to death in his final phase, dying not just in battle but because he never actually got over any of his feelings, and when faced with them one last time he can't stand it.
Wow, that sounds both incredibly interesting and incredibly messed up. I really want to play Library of Ruina at some point, but the sheer time commitment is rather daunting.
 
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