I mean we have Necrons in storage right now. Glass houses, stones etc...
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Vox Vitae: Warhammer AI quest
- Thread starter Neablis
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- Mature Sci-Fi
I mean we have Necrons in storage right now. Glass houses, stones etc...
New Designs get pretty cheap once we have Cogitare again. This scales better for larger hulls.
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He has plenty to do - I'm just letting him use his discretion about what. I'm basically leaving him free to participate in whatever neablus rules he's most suited for whether that is the secondus or the Kleisar planning or advising Vida on when to do hacking, or doing funni games with psy encryption letting us pick and choose what divination can see.
I think my vote already does that in effect - can you confirm,
@Neablis?
I don't think there's a major mechanical distinction here. The NGO is mostly just telling the cogitaire to be the cogitaire, and any we take with us will harmonize with Vita's current mission either way.
Neablis will write what makes sense. If it does matter, this is sufficient to ensure they'll work to be included in denvan exploration missions (discovery), and Denva's uplift ethos boon will handle that side of things.
As for a troop composition, I'll think on that some. Did I make any tanks? I think there was some thought about tanks being viable in Klyssar.
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I tried that, just a 100 small MS tanks for use against any strong points.
Klyssar is damn big, a couple hundred admech only held a small fraction of the entire station back when we first visited it.
Streamlined ship design (100 RP) halves RP cost for ships again.
meianmaru
The Devourer of Fiction
Heavy bots might be still a superior solution. I think it doesn't matter how big the place is in total, but what kinds of corridors and doorways the place has.
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I agree on the abstract principle, but Klyssar is... probably different. A station that holds hundreds of millions - and I'm positive we observed this on the Tide back in Vorthryn, needs large thoroughfares for bulk transportation the same way a city does, and anything along those lines will be almost useless if it doesn't connect to the station's ports in some way.
Tanks would let us control those thoroughfares much easier than infantry, and notably we might be facing tanks along those same routes.
And then more generally, all the art I can recall of imperial ships featured positively cavernous spaces.
@Neablis, are you able to confirm any of this speculation? When I lay it out like that, 100 small tanks feels like it might actually be too few.
EDIT: Though, I suppose we're trying to do this stealthy to start, but there's something to be said for shock and awe in the front showing up just as shivs to the back do.
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The nest can house approximately 5 million at max capacity, for the record. That was clarified when we originally captured it and were being given options for what to do with it.
Still a lot, but not hundreds of millions by any means.
EDIT - That was in Turn 14, for the record... And I think Neablis said something about it during the discussion for the upcoming turn as well, but I could be wrong.
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If we're going to boost the Denvan's navy, we should design some light and heavy cruisers for their usage. We should research the cramming tech before we get started.
Knocking out a design that would use the destroyer hulls would be very cheap anyway (so cheap that assigning engineers to make it cheaper might not be worth it depending on the research diminishing returns pattern).
I think Candles are actually the right size for the free destroyer hulls as it is? Pretty sure they were designed on a 450 base. Though I dunno whether slipping a pre-existing design into a pre-existing hull works for that situation, @Neablis on this?
There's quite a few BP in those hulls, and they're all 10% under the max size for their classes the better to aggravate perfectionists, so I'd suggest if one wants stopgap ships while honing for perfectionism using up those hulls for the stopgap phase is great.
EDIT: And, like a broken record, we don't lose much by making ships that are a little less ideal...and then continuing to make ships.
I think Candles are actually the right size for the free destroyer hulls as it is? Pretty sure they were designed on a 450 base. Though I dunno whether slipping a pre-existing design into a pre-existing hull works for that situation, @Neablis on this?
There's quite a few BP in those hulls, and they're all 10% under the max size for their classes the better to aggravate perfectionists, so I'd suggest if one wants stopgap ships while honing for perfectionism using up those hulls for the stopgap phase is great.
EDIT: And, like a broken record, we don't lose much by making ships that are a little less ideal...and then continuing to make ships.
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I don't disagree in principle that it would be better to build ships with better tech but the hulls are right there, their current defenses are one under-gunned grand cruiser that doesn't actually belong to them, and even though they have most of the necessary industry they don't have OMC shipyards which means they need thousands of people to be trained up in space-construction before they could even get started on (re)building their own defense force.
Given everything else we also want to research as soon as possible, this seems like a situation where waiting for the "perfect" time is going to leave the system more or less defenseless for a couple of decades minimum.
Edit - And if the Candles are the right size, then sure, make those instead. I just cannot understate the extent to which I'd like something other than the Spark defending the system and Caltrops seem extremely suboptimal unless we're going to be building loads of the things. They can't move, don't have the firepower to stand off even a weak destroyer, and don't have the shields to withstand said destroyer long enough to make a difference is my impression of the design.
Edit #2 - Actually, Candles are crewed rather than OMC Operated, which grates, but if it's those or nothing, then I'd still rather build them.
Given everything else we also want to research as soon as possible, this seems like a situation where waiting for the "perfect" time is going to leave the system more or less defenseless for a couple of decades minimum.
Edit - And if the Candles are the right size, then sure, make those instead. I just cannot understate the extent to which I'd like something other than the Spark defending the system and Caltrops seem extremely suboptimal unless we're going to be building loads of the things. They can't move, don't have the firepower to stand off even a weak destroyer, and don't have the shields to withstand said destroyer long enough to make a difference is my impression of the design.
Edit #2 - Actually, Candles are crewed rather than OMC Operated, which grates, but if it's those or nothing, then I'd still rather build them.
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It's worth noting that Denva secondus has spent the last 11 years forting up a against orbital assault, the gas station has its own defenses (that were curiously absent during our fight for it? Did they get destroyed, @Neablis?), Denva has their own ship designs they can make without us, and the warp lab will be hard to find between being middle of nowhere and psy encrypted.
I do not believe there are any targets in the system which cannot defend themselves long enough for the spark to come over and curb stomp whatever picks that fight. Making more hulls immediately is not a concern, I think.
I do not believe there are any targets in the system which cannot defend themselves long enough for the spark to come over and curb stomp whatever picks that fight. Making more hulls immediately is not a concern, I think.
I think the defenses we faced were put there by the cultists after they stormed in.
Well for one thing, as you said, there don't seem to be any defense to speak of anywhere around Aetherion so the immediate presence of the Spark would be the only thing stopping someone from burning down all of our industry.
Denva Secondus has orbital defenses covering at most part of the planet, which demonstrably did not stop a ground invasion/occupation and also wouldn't stop planet killing weaponry, really dirty nukes, or just Orks landing and getting spores everywhere.
You can't secure a system with stationary defenses.
The Stellar Ascendancy currently can't make their own ship designs because everyone operating a shipyard was killed and/or worse and then we stole the shipyard itself.
If people want to research Large-Scale OMC as a priority and maybe also the tiny shipyard design so that they can build their own fleet, that would also be acceptable.
Not sure Athereon has any functional defenses, but even if it does there's certainly the swarm of Crucibles (which can run, but we'd only be able to rescue them if they were able to run towards us), anybody going to investigate Denva Primus, and supply lines to Klyssar's Nest once Denva gets back there...
Also Denva Secundus' forts are local around our original base - most of the planet still doesn't have orbital defenses, so it's not much less exposed to something like a Drukhari raid than before. The bombers would help. (We still don't have bomber tech ourselves...)
I dunno that I actually expect the kind of trouble that would have us running around the system in a panic again, but there is a lot to be said for having some kind of firefighting. Remember the corsair situation? We had destroyers and Spark and still weren't sure we could control the situation.
(Of course, I also hate spending BP on ship instead of more BP this early, but there's definitely something to Some Ships.)
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Alright, I'll go with the assumption that the gas station doesn't have any active defenses anymore.
The point about defense more broadly is that we don't need anything that can hold a position on its own, but just something that's good enough to act as a speed bump Until the spark arrives.
Correct on Avon being where most of the defenses are centered. But as said, Denva has the ability to put up their own defenses. And secondus is where they're largely going to be. With some basic coordination that should be implicit with Victan and W, they can build those defenses along the lines of acting as that speed bump so the spark can relieve them.
I'll look over some options soon, so if people have suggestions for plan alterations in order to meet these objectives in doctrine, that would be helpful.
Also, do we know anything about primus yet?
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From my point of view this is a next-turn question - the vote's about to close and TBH I wouldn't want any more BP pulled away from repairing factories in the leading plan.
Even though, yeah, we could roll up another unwelcome visit any time AFAIK.
Oh, and I do agree - we don't need heavy vessels or defenses to get a degree of comfort, just fast responders that can repel small craft or delay things until the slow-moving hammer of the Spark forces a favorable conclusion.
Even though, yeah, we could roll up another unwelcome visit any time AFAIK.
Oh, and I do agree - we don't need heavy vessels or defenses to get a degree of comfort, just fast responders that can repel small craft or delay things until the slow-moving hammer of the Spark forces a favorable conclusion.
This is the latest on Primus I believe. We don't really know. Denva will probably send some people to look around this turn, I suspect.
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That's fair enough. Depending on what @Neablis says about tanks for Klyssar (can we even transport those by shuttle?) I could take some of that out of the heavy bots budget.
Eeeeeugh. Can we count on Denva doing that, @Neablis? What's W's read on that situation right now? Can the command action for Klyssar be split to also send a minor scouting force to primus early in the turn?
I know we're trying to step away from complicated write-ins, but there's just so much to do and we're out of the "immediate response" miniturn phase so it seems like a bad idea to just leave one threat vector completely unchecked for 5 years.
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They take the space of 20 people in the troop holding, I'd assume the same ratio for assault shuttles.
I mean, it's a choice. It's not "whatever he's most suited for" it's "He'll be reactive." If somebody tries something in the intervening time then he'll roll to counter.
Also, for the future, I don't like "does my vote cover this" questions because then I have to understand the current discussion, look up what your vote is and figure out which part is relevant. Just asking "Hey does Victan assigned to his passive action cover these options."
And the answer is mostly not. It makes him reactive, and if nothing happens he'll build up ties with allies instead of totally wasting the action.
Tanks are only able to access a relatively small portion of the station, though that's mostly the transit corridors, which are of outsize importance in conquering a station like this. Small tanks will have access to more, and heavy to only the biggest regions.
That's correct.
Yeah, you can do that.
All of the space defenses got blown up when the Forsaken Echo moved in to take over.
You cannot depend on Denva to do that soon. They'll reach back out eventually, but it might be a couple of turns. Regardless, there's nothing obvious over there so if you want to investigate it sooner you'd have to spend a full action on it.
I'm going to be generally less tolerant of splitting actions up like this going forward.
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I don't know whether tanks are good for the station or not, but we specifically can carry tanks on our assault shuttles according to specification. (Assault shuttles are enormous.) ((We still don't have actual boarding shuttles, of course.))
Relevant specification for the shipboard shuttles:
The 'basic stealth assault shuttle' independent unit doesn't mention being able to lift tanks, but I'd guess it's meant to be the same capability. Either way, we've got the shipboard ones, so landing tanks is definitely possible.
I think we've had it indicated that Denva will indeed be engaging with the various situations promptly. I'll see what I can find. Here:
"Denva will also likely work on all of these on their own next turn."
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Hm, noted - sorry, didn't mean to make extra work!
I'll edit my plan accordingly and assign Victan to helping plan/process intel for the Klyssar operation.
Extra noted.
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I see. Well then, I suppose that's just a problem for next turn.
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Final edits, based on Neablis's info about tanks, and the need to station something to speedbump an attack on our industrial center at the gas station - reduced heavy bot load-out, and BP expenditure increased by 730, taken from the Aetherion complex.
My math, in the form of a discord embed that will expire later:
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Seems fine to me. I think it might be over-preparing a bit, especially since if it comes to it we can blow the whole station without that much of an issue, but then I was never the biggest fan of trawling though the wreckage of the Echo of Apotheosis to begin with.