Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Why would he automatically become subordinate? That doesn't logically follow. With a monopoly on Sanctuary grade medical tech he becomes a national and international player, Chicago at that point means almost nothing to him. It's just one small market among hundreds of more important ones.
The same reason everyone in vegas was subordinate to the dragon. Like he didn't pay them salaries but if he made a rule then people followed them.

The actual reveanue from the medicine doesn't matter, its a few billions. His actual real world influences in term of followers and connections and real estate is in chicago. You can't really shift that in the short term even with that amount of money.
 
The last point is a question for everyone here. Meeting Charity's parents is inevitable. The question I have is how far should we drag them into the supernatural to explain everything. Or leave them on the edge of ignorance about the true nature of the world...and Molly's true nature.
Depends on who they really are as people and their reaction to Michael (first of all). If they are just uppercrust old money, and they accept MIchael, then limited exposure and probably an offer of rejuvenation. If they don't accept MIchael because he's not from their social circles... We have a lot of options:
1) Of the Line of Charlemagne - this is an almost completely mundane option, but one that still makes Michael more than a pair to Charity. Queen of England is obliged to call us sister according to etiquette, after all.
2) Church affiliation. I harbor suspicion about at least Charity's mother being very religious, and MIchael is, well, a knight of the cross. It wouldn't be hard, I think, to get a cardinal or two to vouch for him if needed. Hell, I bet Pope would more be more than happy to write a letter to smooth sir knight's family troubles.
3) Molly's money. Even in an almost completely mundane setting, Molly is a self-made genius millionaire well on the way to becoming a billionaire. That deserves respect.

So, in summary - if they turn out to be good people and our association is positive, they would make good test cases for immortality treatments. If they are not, then depending on how much trouble they are, we bury them with either mundane means, or appropriately over the top supernatural political means.
 
New crazy theory. There is no Wyld beyond the outer gate. There are ruins of Creation, infected and consumed by oblivion. We are inside a universe inside a universe that is dead. This would explain why if the Neverborn are outside the world, they have not been reborn. This would also explain Jim's words about the abundance of Mordite beyond the outer gate.

I'm also glad that we're finally going to stop being adventurers and finally build infrastructure. Especially considering how long we've been talking about creating a god of Chicago...maybe Manse will be next.
 
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I think I'll call on Canon this time and say that the Feds won't do anything to Marcone anytime soon. Our involvement with him is unlikely to lead to anything more than Daedalus's intervention... And frankly I think we're headed toward a standoff with them anyway. Maybe even an alliance with the Library. Do we need that now? No. But it will be in the future, most likely.

Yes, you're right that Marcone is not necessary and we could do better. But I think the peaceful option is potentially better for us, especially if we can stabilize and ease the situation. And I think we can.

On the subject of Marcone('s people) and IDU - those affected by IDU shouldn't be covered by the Laws. Which should be good for Harry in the event of a confrontation.

Odin at least doesn't seem to care, and he's a smart political operator at least nominally on the side of humanity if general. And has government contracts.
In canon the Feds weren't in an expansionist mood and Marcone wasn't trying to take over a state. This isn't a matter of if there will be a problem, but when and how extreme.

I don't understand why you're being so dismissive of this problem. It is trivial to weaponize the mundane authorities against Marcone even if they don't press the issue themselves, and the ones that are aware are subject to political and institutional pressure to make it worse.

Stop for a moment and imagine the positions of the following people when the supernatural mob starts expanding across an entire state:

1) Mundane FBI members hunting Marcone
2) Daedalus, supernatural FBI
3) The Library
4) A red wetworks group instructed to Shadowrun against Molly in her home territory.

What factors do you think they're subject to? What do they know and how do they feel about it? What are they able to share and who are they accountable to? What might you attempt, and what consequences might result from success or failure?

SV and SB in general have a tendency to operate on the assumption that other factions are interested in doing whatever would be convenient for the protagonist at the time. I think you're doing that now.


Hope the extortionists with pills that cure cancer don't bring any "industry experience" with them. Probably going to be priced as a luxury product to wealthy executives paying millions and nobody else.

Having had to deal with cancer stuff in my personal life I'm unenthused about this decision and its implications.
 
Hope the extortionists with pills that cure cancer don't bring any "industry experience" with them. Probably going to be priced as a luxury product to wealthy executives paying millions and nobody else.

I mean it's going to be priced like contraband is the point. But the people selling it want more than money, things like informers, recruits, bases of operation and the general tacit support of the communities they operate in. Since they will be moving away from fear as a basis of enforcing their will they will have to hand out some of the magic pills to get what they want. Is that going to lead to an equitable system of distribution? Hell no, but it's also not just going to be sold at the highest price the market can bear, ironically enough because this isn't a legal market.
 
At most our deal with Marcone buys him exclusivity in Illinois. We can distribute those ourselves in Vegas, if nothing else.
Rather than exclusivity, more like early adopter status.

Sure, he can be the initial distributor, to spread the word and generate buzz among the wealthy and powerful, but that only lasts for so long before we shift the business model. Let him make his money and collect his favors while dealing with the hassles of it all.

Once we move from the high price low volume product stage, we can transition into the low price high volume market. By then, most of the teething issues should be sorted out.

We just need to make sure we patent any purely mundane drug formulas to prevent the pharmaceutical industry from reverse engineering them from the early samples they're bound to acquire, then trying to snake them out from under us while taking in untold billions in pure profit.
 
Rather than exclusivity, more like early adopter status.

Sure, he can be the initial distributor, to spread the word and generate buzz among the wealthy and powerful, but that only lasts for so long before we shift the business model. Let him make his money and collect his favors while dealing with the hassles of it all.

Once we move from the high price low volume product stage, we can transition into the low price high volume market. By then, most of the teething issues should be sorted out.

We just need to make sure we patent any purely mundane drug formulas to prevent the pharmaceutical industry from reverse engineering them from the early samples they're bound to acquire, then trying to snake them out from under us while taking in untold billions in pure profit.
If Marcone is smart, he'll probably pay for FDA approval himself, and then try to get us to set up production in Chicago.
 
At most our deal with Marcone buys him exclusivity in Illinois. We can distribute those ourselves in Vegas, if nothing else.
We didn't have anything planned for that when we voted, and I'm not sure how far we can stretch what we did vote to do there. When you vote for only one distributor to have something you only have one distributor for it.

It's also all secret, and frankly it's a lot to ask for people to cross a distance roughly similar to going from Moscow to Paris to pick up the alternative anyway. The local monopoly is pretty strong.


I mean it's going to be priced like contraband is the point. But the people selling it want more than money, things like informers, recruits, bases of operation and the general tacit support of the communities they operate in. Since they will be moving away from fear as a basis of enforcing their will they will have to hand out some of the magic pills to get what they want. Is that going to lead to an equitable system of distribution? Hell no, but it's also not just going to be sold at the highest price the market can bear, ironically enough because this isn't a legal market.
That isn't really substantially better though. Access to life saving treatment being gated behind absolute loyalty to the system sharing them out.

I fundamentally don't see a difference between the moral fiber of mobsters and say the health insurance system. Organized crime just has enough romanticism to it that it has better PR.

"Don't worry, we won't put you in financial debt for getting you access to lifesaving medical care, just obligate you swear loyalty to your insurer and assist them in whatever they feel like doing today"

If you're too poor to pay in cash and don't have the access to perform white collar crime you can just sign up to be a novice vampire hunter.
 
We didn't have anything planned for that when we voted, and I'm not sure how far we can stretch what we did vote to do there. When you vote for only one distributor to have something you only have one distributor for it.

It's also all secret, and frankly it's a lot to ask for people to cross a distance roughly similar to going from Moscow to Paris to pick up the alternative anyway. The local monopoly is pretty strong.
We didn't talk about exclusivity at all, yes. We also haven't planned to spend AP on distributing the stuff ourselves.

We have, in principle, three plausible points of ingress - Chicago, Vegas, and our portal zone. Theoretically Boston too, in the future. Marcone's operation is limited to Chicago, with the aim of expanding to Illinois. He's unlikely to be able to expand farther without changing his mode of operation, I think. So, we should be able to distribute stuff from Vegas at least without running into a confrontation with him.

If we seriously want to start Marshal plan / uplift, then I think what we should do is:
1) Brief the government on the supernatural. Contact the Federal Reserve guy, brief him, work through him and the Library to brief others.
2) Establish secret trade with USA as an entity. This would require a permanent portal, and the portal not being on USA soil would actually work better, I think.
3) Have the government fast track our stuff - with enough interest a lot of things can be fast tracked, I think.

It's something to do, but I don't think it's something to do now.
Stop for a moment and imagine the positions of the following people when the supernatural mob starts expanding across an entire state:

1) Mundane FBI members hunting Marcone
2) Daedalus, supernatural FBI
3) The Library
4) A red wetworks group instructed to Shadowrun against Molly in her home territory.
All this applies to Las Vegas too. In fact, it applies to Vegas more. Because it is, for all intents and practices, an independent state, and not part of the USA right now. the lord of Las Vegas does not answer to USA government, passes their own laws, and has granted a foreign government military basing rights. Think about it again - we have negotiated military basing rights on USA soil with an unelected city lord. That's treason.
 
That isn't really substantially better though. Access to life saving treatment being gated behind absolute loyalty to the system sharing them out.

I fundamentally don't see a difference between the moral fiber of mobsters and say the health insurance system. Organized crime just has enough romanticism to it that it has better PR.

"Don't worry, we won't put you in financial debt for getting you access to lifesaving medical care, just obligate you swear loyalty to your insurer and assist them in whatever they feel like doing today"

If you're too poor to pay in cash and don't have the access to perform white collar crime you can just sign up to be a novice vampire hunter.

Well yeah, you guys are working with the mob, famously not known for their fairness and understanding.
 
It's something to do, but I don't think it's something to do now.
There are degrees of involvement here. There are options other than everything, nothing, and cutting a deal in which you trade someone the ability to exploit desperate people.


All this applies to Las Vegas too. In fact, it applies to Vegas more. Because it is, for all intents and practices, an independent state, and not part of the USA right now. the lord of Las Vegas does not answer to USA government, passes their own laws, and has granted a foreign government military basing rights. Think about it again - we have negotiated military basing rights on USA soil with an unelected city lord. That's treason
No, not yet it doesn't.

That situation was very different and our relationship with the world is too.

Why are you so unwilling to consider the idea that who these people are and the history that they have in the world matter? Or rather that they matter beyond the moral evaluation of them?
 
Establish secret trade with USA as an entity. This would require a permanent portal, and the portal not being on USA soil would actually work better, I think.
Unless it's a portal that can be opened and closed by using a Chicago god, Fuck That. The one in South America is getting closed at some point, you used the fact that it should be temporary as an argument for it countless times.
 
On my part I assume that governing is an ongoing AP sink, and I am committed to sinking as much AP as possible into it, to maintain high level of loyalty and efficiency from the Courts. Our people deserve the best.
Luckily we've been able to delegate Sanctuary to ourself rather than needing to be there personally. We can trust us.
 
No, not yet it doesn't.

That situation was very different and our relationship with the world is too.

Why are you so unwilling to consider the idea that who these people are and the history that they have in the world matter? Or rather that they matter beyond the moral evaluation of them?
In what way was the situation different from the perspective of federal government? Both supernaturally aware parts of it, and not.

And to reply to your question - I am willing to consider it, I just see the history of people we already dealt with as worse, and believe that federal government would also see it as worse. Remember, in Vegas we also dealt with local mafia, and also with Red Court controlled criminals. And for the supernaturally aware parts of the government, we, again, supported a new lord of the city, and got military basing f*cking rights.
 
Remember, in Vegas we also dealt with local mafia, and also with Red Court controlled criminals. And for the supernaturally aware parts of the government, we, again, supported a new lord of the city, and got military basing f*cking rights.
That's a horrible example. If the Gate got opened America would've been overrun by the Outside. Anyone aware of our involvement with those things would also be aware of that. The military basing rights are for the hole in reality that may become an issue later.

Stop taking shit out of context.
 
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That's a horrible example. If the Gate got opened America would've been overrun by the Outside. Anyone aware of our involvement with those things would also be aware of that. The military basing rights are for the hole in reality that may become an issue later.

Stop taking shit out of context.
Context matters, but only to those aware and caring for it. We dealt with and established alliance with local mafias of various stripes. Tommy is Marcone, Vegas edition. Arlene of the cult of Isis "likes to make examples" of crooked cops and businessmen. They both have to have case files as long, if not longer, than Marcone's. The government, represented by the Library, was willing to negotiate with the new city lord, and leave them be. And we established basing rights in the city. Yes, they are to guard against the Gate intrusion if needed, obviously. But they still give us a foothold.
 
Context matters, but only to those aware and caring for it. We dealt with and established alliance with local mafias of various stripes. Tommy is Marcone, Vegas edition. Arlene of the cult of Isis "likes to make examples" of crooked cops and businessmen. They both have to have case files as long, if not longer, than Marcone's. The government, represented by the Library, was willing to negotiate with the new city lord, and leave them be. And we established basing rights in the city. Yes, they are to guard against the Gate intrusion if needed, obviously. But they still give us a foothold.
You're talking about those aware right now as you stated. The parts of the gov that aren't aware of the supernatural aren't going to know of Molly's basing rights or that it was Molly who did those things because it's too tied up in the supernatural. It's called extenuating circumstances, a foothold to deal with and prevent a similar situation arising that caused an earthquake in America and puts the country in danger in such a way that the military would have to use a nuke to solve it is more than likely going to be seen as the cost of doing business not some super bad illegal thing.

Edit: Especially since we got the Library of Congress, an extension of the Gov, a foothold as well. Something they weren't able to manage before we got involved.
 
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To summarize my position, and I really don't want to go over this again and again, so these are basically my final words on the issue:

Non-aware (NA) government organizations (GO) do not know of our contact with Marcone, and, if we take even the most basic precautions, have no way to discover our contact with Marcone in a way that they can prove to any NA judge or oversight organizations. NAGO can and have been repeatedly suppressed by AGO, as was the case in Vegas, and Boston. Ultimately they cannot impede Molly Carpenter. At most, they can impede Marcone and his operation, and that's not a big problem, or won't be if we also buff SI and other security measures in the city and the state.

AGO should be aware of at least one of the following:
1) Last Station, Jade Dogs and Porter bending the knee to us
2) The Sanctuary and what it represents
3) Las Vegas agreement
4) Our ability to turn humans into a new kind of vampires and ability to bless those under our command
5) Our involvement in the events of and continued presence in Boston

Depending on their mandate (national security or protecting human citizens) this makes Marcone association either largely irrelevant, or something to save Marcone from us over. Because from the perspective of NAGO, we are basically engaging in soul trade with Marcone, and those always end to the benefit of the supernatural side. We are far more valuable, and dangerous, than Marcone is. I expect some diplomacy to happen over this eventually, yes, but not critical issue troubles. In regards to drug trafficking I expect NAGO to want to also get involved, rather than ban it, perhaps with empathis on combat drugs and such.
 
In what way was the situation different from the perspective of federal government? Both supernaturally aware parts of it, and not.

And to reply to your question - I am willing to consider it, I just see the history of people we already dealt with as worse, and believe that federal government would also see it as worse. Remember, in Vegas we also dealt with local mafia, and also with Red Court controlled criminals. And for the supernaturally aware parts of the government, we, again, supported a new lord of the city, and got military basing f*cking rights.
Well to start we're talking about the facts as presented and known to these entities. The mundane FBI doesn't know we have basing rights, it doesn't know we exist. We're not a major crime syndicate with our own collection of case files, detectives, and lawyers who've working to take us down for most of the last few years.

The supernaturally aware portion of the gave us that agreement. It's not treason because the government is allowed to make these kinds of deals. You could perhaps argue that the Library doesn't have the authority to do that, but that turns into a political negotiation thing. If the government as a whole suddenly became aware it wouldn't be surprising if Congress demanded a renegotiation conducted through normal channels, but ultimately it isn't your foreign partner's job to police your government.

There's also the nature of what's being done. We aren't expanding a violent criminal empire that is already known to be so by them. First impressions are important even here.

We can't shatter the masquerade here and now. This means that the set up you're designing is already being hunted by the mundane government before its even done anything.

This will not stop, it can only get worse as more players stir the pot.

The moral evaluation isn't relevant to this, you could replace the mob with saints and it would happen the same way. Molly could be wholly insulated from being connected to this and it would still result in a conflict between the mob and the government.

This makes all of them less effective and more easily exploited by bad actors.

I do think our connection would be discovered, simply because of how everything lines up.
 
Arc 15 Post 27: Where Worlds Join New
Where Worlds Join

3rd of March 2007 A.D.

You might be cool, but as you return to the Tres Fronteras you discover you're not that cool, literally, the sun beats down hard enough to make your shirt stick to your skin unpleasantly and whatever he might think Usum isn't helping by claiming that your glorious self could do without wearing clothes at all. "Well Majesty you did insist on working in the sun," the demon chides, though you almost can't 'hear' from from the teeth-jarring noise of yellow and black construction SUTRAs laying down the foundations of the gateway fortress. Looking to all the world like a twenty foot tall amalgamations of crane and spider with all manner of shovels drills and gaping excavator buckets they are engaging in what looks to all the world to be ecological devastation, ripping though the giants of the jungle. In truth they are protecting the the local biosphere as much as building up protections against attack.

Even with the other side being barren of most life Regina's panel of xeno-biologists, which you guess makes them your pannel of xeno-biologists though it still feels strange even inside your own head, had been estimated that micro organisms from Sanctuary can and eventually will breach into quarantine and get to Earth at which point 'estimates become naked guesswork' unless the very land and spirits are tasked with holding fast the sanctity of separate micro-biota. The phraze that feels entirely natural even elegant in Seeker Tongue, the product of a society for which the use of spirits in civil engineering makes as much sense as the use of concrete does on Earth. Thankfully your presence rendered what would otherwise have been grueling process of trial and error in swaying the spirits of fire and stone to pass though the Gate and clear the ground far more straightforward, if still time consuming.

As it turns out simply having an instinctive knowledge of the proper rites and forms doesn't mean they are any faster to do.

"Hey me!" Regina shouts over the thundering cacophony of the build site. There really aren't very many good things to call yourself in a hurry. "We've got contacts!"

"Reds?" you;ve been half expecting half anticipating another Red Court attempt to push to push the interlopers off its 'rightful' territory. Air superiority has a way of groing confidence. Drones from the size of a human hand all the way up to robotic claw-mag bombers had been passed though the gate in preparation for the counter-attack.

"I don't think so, they don't look like mercenaries either, it looks like a trio of military helicopters, Colombian judging from their coms, though they could still have been sent."

"Any idea what they're looking for?" you ask sharply, confidence curdling to worry. Rumors of aliens would be awkward, a diplomatic incident potentially much worse.

She shakes her head. "They aren't talking much, but it's clear they are looking for something on the ground, flying a grid pattern. They will be in sight of the build sight in about an hur at this rate. We can get all the equipment out of the way in time, but there's still the fortifications, there is no way they would miss them from the air..."

"What if there was?" you muse. "You said they are in a search pattern, limited by fuel. All it would take is a wizard holding a basic veil and they would pass us right by."

"Assuming all that's up there is regular soldiers using mundane senses yeah, but what about next time?"

"The one we rescued here last should be able to hold it longer term once we set up the infrastructure, the spirits of the jungle shouldn't object, not like they want the vampires back."

"Or we could apporach the soldiers, figure out if they are on the level and if not who sent them," Regina sugests resonably.

"If they are just regular soldiers and they see more than they should...?"

"You convince them to lie, you're good at that."

What do you do?

[] Fetch a Carlos to hold a veil for you in the hopes that you can set up something more long lasting in the days ahead

[] Talk to the soldiers
-[] Write in how

[] Write in


OOC: Enjoy.
 
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I think we need information now. We can work on disguise later, once we know who we're dealing with. At least that's my thought.
 
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