Vox Vitae: Warhammer AI quest

Speedemon22 · Dec 21, 2024

[X] Plan: Expand your Ship, Vita!
[X] Diplomat-spy: Victan's active action bonus can be applied to all diplomacy rolls, including first contact with a new culture.
[X] Kezathi Zenza, troubled seer. Eta (10)

Glau · Dec 21, 2024

[X] Diplomat-spy: Victan's active action bonus can be applied to all diplomacy rolls, including first contact with a new culture.
[X] Cia Steblin, confidant pyromancer. Zeta (11)
[X] Kezathi Zenza, troubled seer. Eta (10)

As far as exploration actions, I don't really care if there's a payoff in material, I just want to know what is there and what that says about what happened here. Hoping the first planet gets a close look in that dirty of a survey too.

Exploring is it's own reward.

DragonParadox said:
Er... to be run by whom? The Denvans almost cooked themselves alive trying to run a station last turn. It's going to be a while before they can be trusted with true void ships.

The denvans. They aren't going to learn unless they do, and we don't have a source of population to crew and command except for them. I'm betting that child AI are a lot harder to research than a few ship class plans that have crew quarters. 'A while' is why we leave them to do it off screen.

Neablis · Dec 21, 2024

DragonParadox said:
Er... to be run by whom? The Denvans almost cooked themselves alive trying to run a station last turn. It's going to be a while before they can be trusted with true void ships.

They're getting better. The station is stable now, and has developed the expertise to run it and institutional allergy to political bullshit.

Prime 2.0 said:
Hey @Neablis, would Cia or Ker be able to lead those iota psyker staff? Just asking because I was interested in getting the iotas in a future diplo action, but only if it doesn't take up another crew slot.

...Random thought besides, but non-crew staff in general seems like fertile ground for omakes. Hm.

Yeah. The staff wouldn't take up a slot regardless.

DragonParadox · Dec 21, 2024

Glau said:
The denvans. They aren't going to learn unless they do, and we don't have a source of population to care and command except for them. I'm being that child AI are a lot harder to research than a few ship class plans that have crew quarters. 'A while' is why we leave them to do it off screen.

Are you planning for us to do that research in addition to what we need to in order to give them the industry? We are already committed to staying here another 15 years just to finish the ship. I do not think we are sticking around here much past that. Enough for industry? Sure enough for 'a few ship plans' and everything those ships need to work, and the full Void Abacus production research...? A tall order at best.

Karnax626 · Dec 21, 2024

[X] Plan: Expand your Ship, Vita!

[X] Diplomat-spy: Victan's active action bonus can be applied to all diplomacy rolls, including first contact with a new culture.

[X] Ker Bemsk, awkard telekinetic. Delta (13)

Prime 2.0 · Dec 21, 2024

Neablis said:
Yeah. The crew wouldn't take up a slot regardless.

*Staff?

Also, yesssssssssss. Psyker staff, here we come. <3

DragonParadox said:
Are you planning for us to do that research in addition to what we need to in order to give them the industry? We are already committed to staying here another 15 years just to finish the ship. I do not think we are sticking around here much past that. Enough for industry? Sure enough for 'a few ship plans' and everything those ships need to work, and the full Void Abacus production research...? A tall order at best.

Something alectai pointed out to me is that the sector layout is very conducive to making loops that pass through Denva again and again. Even before then, we'll have the denva system to explore to hold off the wanderlust for a little bit, which keeps us close enough to build up more infrastructure.

Right now isn't the time to be addressing any new plates barring something that flips the table of course, we want our flagship up by the end of next turn. But afterwards, we'll have time one way or another.

Toboe · Dec 21, 2024

DragonParadox said:
Are you planning for us to do that research in addition to what we need to in order to give them the industry? We are already committed to staying here another 15 years just to finish the ship. I do not think we are sticking around here much past that. Enough for industry? Sure enough for 'a few ship plans' and everything those ships need to work, and the full Void Abacus production research...? A tall order at best.

Giving them the industry is like 2 AP.
Get OMC, get industry follow up to OMC.
And free action give it to them (preferably the station folks, they seems to be getting together nicely)
Want to do it well?
Do 1 diplo AP to start the research cooperation.

That is less than 1 turn.
Just need to spend it instead of getting sidetracked until we suddenly flee.

2 turns if we get all the little niceities.
(Research cooperation, tech Staff, psy Staff, OMC and OMC Industrial, 3 AP free for other stuff)

Prime 2.0 said:
*Staff?

Also, yesssssssssss. Psyker staff, here we come. <3

VIVA Vita psybeans!
Would be great if we could also get tech Staff.

DragonParadox · Dec 21, 2024

Prime 2.0 said:
Right now isn't the time to be addressing any new plates barring something that flips the table of course, we want our flagship up by the end of next turn. But afterwards, we'll have time one way or another.

If we are getting combat on turn 19 odds are good we will have all manner of urgent actions to do, starting with repairing our ship, dealing with any prisoners as well as potentially more esoteric issues from something like a Tyranid or Chaos attack. I do not think we are going to be anywhere near free, after that come those 3-6 actions to hand off industry and after that would come the actions to research void ships. I think you are being more than a bit optimistic on the prospect of how long Vita is going to want to stick around here.

Prime 2.0 · Dec 21, 2024

DragonParadox said:
If we are getting combat on turn 19 odds are good we will have all manner of urgent actions to do, starting with repairing our ship, dealing with any prisoners as well as potentially more esoteric issues from something like a Tyranid or Chaos attack. I do not think we are going to be anywhere near free, after that come those 3-6 actions to hand off industry and after that would come the actions to research void ships. I think you are being more than a bit optimistic on the prospect of how long Vita is going to want to stick around here.

Yes, if. We want to be prepared for combat by the end of next turn, that doesn't mean it's definitely going to happen.

That said, even in the scenario you describe, we'd still have the rest of the Denva system to explore, and after that still be doing circuits around the sector, and particularly in the scenario you describe the combat would highlight specific needs for Denva's self-defense which both IC and OOC would motivate some form of as-yet-undetermined investment before we leave. The diplomatic/societal readiness situation will also develop on its own over that time; if Vita further intervening there turns out to be an effective/efficient route to be ready to leave, we might do that too.

One way or another Denva Secondus is going to need a navy to survive. The question isn't if, but how - and the degree to which we are involved is one of the things up in the air as to that "how". I personally expect they'll build most of them on their own using our left behind industry.

How they get their "survive in the short term" military starter pack is a separate but related question, of course.

Ultimately, we're not actually at the point where stuff after flagship completion is being ruled out overmuch. Wasn't the estimate for how long we could still be here before our trait kicked us in the pants turn 24? Just so long as we are making preparations to be able to leave, at any rate.

Nightlord256 · Dec 21, 2024

Just a quick point of order on the industry handoff - we do not need to do any research. It is just a build action to refit the factories for human workers. @Neablis confirmed that the cost for this would be 50% of base price. So ground factories can convert themselves in a single action.

Now we might want to add a diplomatic action onto that to manage the hand-off, training, etc. But we could do it in one action.

I imagine us researching large void structures to unlock the more cp efficient building, then building them as we convert ground factories.

Edit: Neablis has also said the large void tech would improve the factories into our ships. Exact ratio would be roll dependant, but he mention providing 1/5 of their cost as VBP (currently it's 1/10).

This would make factory ships that could travel with us much more feasible.

Prime 2.0 · Dec 21, 2024

Nightlord256 said:
Now we might want to add a diplomatic action onto that to manage the hand-off, training, etc. But we could do it in one action.

I imagine us researching large void structures to unlock the more cp efficient building, then building them as we convert ground factories.

One complication is that all of our ground factories are in Aevon. Expect more diplomatic wrangling if they have to be manned rather than remotely controlled with agreements about shipping/borders. Manned factories mean the people manning them will have to live there, after all, no sense having an intercontinental daily commute.

Some diplomacy will be necessary even going the OMC route, but not as much since only the factories and ports would have to have some kind of workaround for the sovereignty issues, as opposed to having entire communities of foreign workers with their own local economies. It's a much smaller ask.

The alternative alternative is to just build parallel infrastructure in the other nations, but I kinda like the idea of binding them closer together one way or another - I'm not ruling out the manned factory route out at all here, just pointing out that it has its own challenges in place of the research-related ones of OMC or machine spirit automation refits.

Tylonius · Dec 21, 2024

[X] Plan: Expand your Ship, Vita!
[X] Diplomat-spy: Victan's active action bonus can be applied to all diplomacy rolls, including first contact with a new culture.
[X] Ker Bemsk, awkard telekinetic. Delta (13)

He wants to explore, we want to explore. It's literally perfect.

Glau · Dec 21, 2024

I'm going to be extremely disappointed if the actual plan ends up being 'build our ship, mothball everything, ditch the system with as much as we can carry, go on a conquest spree.'

DragonParadox said:
If we are getting combat on turn 19 odds are good we will have all manner of urgent actions to do, starting with repairing our ship, dealing with any prisoners as well as potentially more esoteric issues from something like a Tyranid or Chaos attack.

I feel like we have very different priorities as far as things we "must" do or what is "urgent".

We aren't a war leader. Vita is not fulfilled by fighting wars nor by conquest. So my goal is to delegate that so we can go do what we actually want to do. Which is exploring, which we can do right now.

I get the feeling that you think it's cute that I want to explore, but all those things are going to be ditched the instant there's a faster way to a more perfect war machine, so there's no point in trying. We don't need battleships and nice cannons and a secure under our control and then maybe we can think about emotional fulfillment- we've got a ship and some unknowns right here, right now, with no pressure except an ominous feeling.

So yes, I want to spend actions to explore and to do the research to leave our built assets here so other people can leverage them. I want them to have a fleet so we don't have to. I would prefer to run rather than fight when we can, and keep the battles we do right small scale.

DecaffeinatedOwl · Dec 21, 2024

[X] Plan: Low-risk shipbuilding

Nightlord256 · Dec 21, 2024

Prime 2.0 said:
I'm not ruling out the manned factory route out at all here, just pointing out that it has its own challenges.

Agreed, good to brainstorm and kick the tires. I notice we have the option to research Mag-Lev blueprints. Maybe we could build (or just start) this for the Denvians to link the manufacturing center to each nation.

On the note of ships and a black navy, I think that should be given to the folks at the station. They seem least likely to play silly buggers with it. Maybe we build a single destroyer for them early on so that they can start learning the skills needed to crew it.

Of course all of this depends on what happens over the next two turns.

DragonParadox · Dec 21, 2024

Prime 2.0 said:
One way or another Denva Secondus is going to need a navy to survive. The question isn't if, but how - and the degree to which we are involved is one of the things up in the air as to that "how". I personally expect they'll build most of them on their own using our left behind industry.

Oh sure, that is reasonable, I just hesitate to commit to long term infrastructure actions to design or make true fleets this time around. Once we do a circuit that would be fine. At the end of the day we did choose Wayfarer as a major trait, it's one of the reasons our traits are as strong as it is. It would be unwise to ignore it.

Glau said:
I feel like we have very different priorities as far as things we "must" do or what is "urgent".

We aren't a war leader. Vita is not fulfilled by fighting wars nor by conquest. So my goal is to delegate that so we can go do what we actually want to do. Which is exploring, which we can do right now.

I get the feeling that you think it's cute that I want to explore, but all those things are going to be ditched the instant there's a faster way to a more perfect war machine, so there's no point in trying. We don't need battleships and nice cannons and a secure under our control and then maybe we can think about emotional fulfillment- we've got a ship and some unknowns right here, right now, with no pressure except an ominous feeling.

So yes, I want to spend actions to explore and to do the research to leave our built assets here so other people can leverage them. I want them to have a fleet so we don't have to. I would prefer to run rather than fight when we can, and keep the battles we do right small scale.

Er... what? I feel like you are arguing the other side of the conversation entirely. My point was that we should be out there exploring not spending years doing research for the Denvan navy.

Toboe · Dec 21, 2024

Glau said:
So yes, I want to spend actions to explore and to do the research to leave our built assets here so other people can leverage them. I want them to have a fleet so we don't have to. I would prefer to run rather than fight when we can, and keep the battles we do right small scale.

Are you up for strong Denva meta-plan?
Research cooperation (gets them thinking on their own and slightly boosts our RP for some researches)
OMC
OMC Industrial follow up - lets them use our stuff effectively. Without needing to retrofit (retrofit should also means we can't use it directly anymore)

We just need to be persistent and push the AP before people go "ditch asap".

10ebbor10 · Dec 21, 2024

Toboe said:
OMC

So, what is OMC supposed to be in the first place?

It's not in the tech lists, or the build lists.
Acronyms are annoying when they're not standard.

Prime 2.0 · Dec 21, 2024

DragonParadox said:
Oh sure, that is reasonable, I just hesitate to commit to long term infrastructure actions to design or make true fleets this time around. Once we do a circuit that would be fine. At the end of the day we did choose Wayfarer as a major trait, it's one of the reasons our traits are as strong as it is. It would be unwise to ignore it.

Absolutely - glad we're on the same page. My point is just that barring some new pressing issue (not impossible lmao) we're going to have a lot more discretion after the flagship is done. We've honestly been under some form of gun and short term risk of unhedged catastrophe this whole quest, so it'll be weird to actually have all our bases some kind of covered for once.

Planning and brainstorming at that point that requires a different sort of thinking - a "yes, and" attitude, if I were to spitball a short and punchy way to describe it.

10ebbor10 said:
So, what is OMC supposed to be in the first place?

Organic-Machine Control. The base tech allows controlling bots and very small ships, a follow-on tech allows controlling factories. Synergies are expected with manufactory machine spirits.

We're not sure if it's necessary for a non-manned manufactory handover or if machine spirit refits would be sufficient yet, so I personally expect to advocate for doing factory machine spirits first since it comes with chaos resistance and applies to the stuff we're taking with us.

Angle · Dec 21, 2024

[X] Plan: Improved Manufactories To Build The Ship:
-[X] [Free] Poke around some more in the databases, looking for anything in particular.
--[X] Look for information on nearby xenos, both friendly and hostile.
-[X] Research 1 (Completed before building Manufactories, hopefully discounting their CP)
--[X] Ground Manufactory Efficiency Improvements (50 RP)
--[X] Manufacturing Machine Spirits (60 + 40 RP)
---[X] Anexa assists
--[X] Improved Psychic shielding: (60 RP, unless needed to boost results for earlier research)
--[X] You don't need no stinkin' medical school (30 RP, unless needed to boost results for earlier research)
-[X] Construction 1 (3500 GBP, 1350 VBP, 3500 Lift, 4850 BP total):
--[X] 48 Manufactory (100 GBP, 50 CP) --- (4,800 GBP, 2,400 CP) (4055 left, barring CP discounts from tech)
--[X] 2.5 Shuttles (20 GBP, 5 CP) --- (50 GBP, 15 CP) (570 CP left, barring CP discounts from tech) (+150 Lift capacity, pending spceports)
-[X] Construction 2 (5900 GBP, 1350 VBP, 3500 Lift, 7250 BP total):
--[X] 67 Manufactory (100 GBP, 50 CP) --- (6,700 GBP, 3,350 CP) (705 CP left, barring CP discounts from tech)
--[X] 2 Spaceport (100 GBP, 25 CP) --- (200 GBP, 50 CP) (655 CP left, barring CP discounts from tech)
--[X] 17.5 Shuttle (20 GBP, 5 CP) --- (350 GBP, 85 CP) (570 CP left, barring CP discounts from tech) (+1000 Lift capacity = 4500)
-[X] Construction 3 (9250 GBP, 1350 VBP, 4500 Lift Capacity, 10,600 BP total)
--[X] 10 Spaceport (100 GBP, 25 CP) --- (1000 GBP, 250 CP) (320 CP left, barring CP discounts from tech)
--[X] 95 Shuttle (20 GBP, 5 CP) --- (1900 GBP, 475 CP) (-170 CP left, barring CP discounts from tech) (+4750 Lift capacity = 9250)
--[X] 500 GBP for Psy-shield upgrades
--[X] 1250 GBP for various bribes, uplift assistance, and other forms of commercial lubrication, including refitting manufactories for machine spirits to reduce CP costs.)
--[X] Trade goods (100 GBP)
--[X] Ship!: 5850/33,650 VBP
-[X] Anexa active Action: Research - assists a research action you take, granting +5xLevel RP to the action. Will level on successful roll, scaled by the importance of the tech.
-[X] Victan passive action: Counterespionage & communication - Defends against covert action, as well as gathering information on your foes and keeping communication channels open with any allies present. Will only level if something interesting happens.

And:
[X] Diplomat-spy: Victan's active action bonus can be applied to all diplomacy rolls, including first contact with a new culture. Victan's only been able to be included on these diplomacy rolls thus far becuase he's a local, and has contacts inside Aevon he can use for diplomacy. If you go somewhere new he'll be limited to just being a spy without this.

Prime 2.0 · Dec 21, 2024

Toboe said:
VIVA Vita psybeans!
Would be great if we could also get tech Staff.

With OMC, tech staff could offer a CP savings. It may also add a level of ability to build manned manufactories on other worlds that our staff operate, saving on refits to pass them on to the locals.

Me personally, what I think I'd love is if we specialized them as educators. We already have a lot of success yoloing it, but I like the flavor of having people who lived on the ship coming down to spread the good word of the quest for knowledge unending, lol.

Toboe · Dec 21, 2024

10ebbor10 said:
So, what is OMC supposed to be in the first place?

It's not in the tech lists, or the build lists.
Acronyms are annoying when they're not standard.

Organic Machine control

Neablis said:
-[] Organic-Machine control (150 RP) Allows you to hook humans into your own command-and-control loop, allowing you to turn over command duties of various bots to humans - though they'll only be able to command combat units. (Unlocks brain implants that allow a human to control some number of CP worth of combat bots/ships. There are more technologies to allow humans to command larger ships/manufacturing systems as well)

Prime 2.0 said:
With OMC, tech staff could offer a CP savings. It may also add a level of ability to build manned manufactories on other worlds that our staff operate, saving on refits to pass them on to the locals.

Exactly!
And fluffy wise:
Friends for Anexa that share her interests.

Prime 2.0 said:
Me personally, what I think I'd love is if we specialized them as educators. We already have a lot of success yoloing it, but I like the flavor of having people who lived on the ship coming down to spread the good word of the quest for knowledge unending, lol.

Maybe something along Ora et labora.
Just instead of pray-and-work it would be mixing learning+teaching with working.
Like a non-shitty Mechanicus.

Questwolf · Dec 21, 2024

[X] Plan: Expand your Ship, Vita!

[X] Diplomat-spy: Victan's active action bonus can be applied to all diplomacy rolls, including first contact with a new culture.
[X] Cia Steblin, confidant pyromancer. Zeta (11)

Alcor6400 · Dec 21, 2024

[X] Plan: Expand your Ship, Vita!

[X] Diplomat-spy: Victan's active action bonus can be applied to all diplomacy rolls, including first contact with a new culture.
[X] Ker Bemsk, awkard telekinetic. Delta (13)

I'm actually genuinely suprised that yall are going for the pyromancer, don't get me wrong I love me some fireballs but this guy literally wants to explore the stars, and our whole thing is exploring the stars, I kinda figured it was the obvious thing to go for here, especially since all the problems with a strong psyker are minimised by the matter of our existance

Also, someone who's confident and assertive might be a bit of a problem when they've been raised to believe in the emperor way harder than like 99% of people in the galaxy, I'm not sure we wanna be telling someone like that about how Vita's an AI and also thinks that Imperium bad

pokemaniaque · Dec 21, 2024

Psyker Aquisition
[] A dozen weaker psykers, led by Nabal Sidz. Caps out at Iota (8)

Vox Vitae: Warhammer AI quest

DON'T PANIC

Release Candidate Enby