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Traveller, The Rise of Empire: A Naval Design, Procurement and Command Quest

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Maxin_inc said:
Your proposal for a new command ship, I'd like more kinetic cannons on it if we're going to put them un turrets. If I read the design right it has only 1 or 2 cannons depending on configuration.

To be honest I'd also like to start moving towards a flying wing hull design for aesthetic and gun layout reasons.
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Sorry, I can make that clearer - I was indicating it's primary armament should either be heavy turrets with twin LMDCs or heavy turrets with a single HMDC.
 
I still think it would be worthwhile developing a six jump capable warship, armed with missile, to jump into a system, target shipyards, fuel storage, munition dumps, etc, and then jump out before a response can be organized. That way we could do the buildup we need to do while keeping an eye on and destroying the enemies war industry. If we are able to add stealth to them even better. I'd envision treating them similar to how submarines are treated currently. Attach greater prestige to being crew of the ship, have better wages and longer shore leave to make up for poorer conditions while deployed. It would be a comprised if fuel, missile tubes, and little else, given that there wouldn't be much space given our current tech level. It's very threat would require our enemies to keep ships behind the lines to ensure the security of their logistics, lowering the amount engaging our main fleets. It's a capability we don't have, and I believe it is worth investing in.
 
We've not considered the angle of declaring the Lydian government an illegal government due to the nature of them using fusion guns against the war treaty meaning we have all the legitimacy we need to topple their government.
 
Shaara1929 said:
I still think it would be worthwhile developing a six jump capable warship, armed with missile, to jump into a system, target shipyards, fuel storage, munition dumps, etc, and then jump out before a response can be organized.
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I think given recent experience, this is an even more pressing concept. A stealth ship, coasting in from deep out-system before tossing torps and burning away? I see it.
 
Main issue with a six jump ship is that carrying that much internally is tonnage prohibitive.

EDIT: You can kinda get away with it by carrying three jumps on external tanks on a 3k chassis and going to armor 7; can carry 5 large torpedo bays and two hours of fire, plus an R-3 drive and acceleration benches for the crew to strap into when it's time for hard escape burn.

Could get it down more if we just want them to fire like up to six volleys and bail.
 
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[X] Plan: Circle Four Service Replenishment Program
-[X] Attempt to peacefully retrieve the diplomatic team from Menorb. While there, try and deploy stealthed spy sensors to collect information on Menorb, and if possible, embed clandestine intelligence assets. Also attempt to determine more about Menorb's willingness to voluntarily side with the Lydians after the Lydians have been ousted.
-[X] Utilize the new surveyors and some moderate escorts to attempt a deep run around known Lydian space to try and get an idea of what's beyond them to the Galactic East and West, as range and logistics allow.
-[X] Stations should be designed of standard "cells" that can link together. Fuelling, replenishment, mining, and manufacturing cells should be fully automated. Defence and recreation cells should be semi-automated.
-[X] Purchase TL10 weapons and drives from the Aslan, in a repeat of the previous deal. Ask for a discount because we're going to be using it to deal with the Lydians, who they have had negative encounters with in the past.
-[X] The MIC should assess the ongoing integration of Aslan immigrants into Home society.
-[X] See if anyone else is willing to give us anything because they hate the Lydians and would be happy to see us fight them.
-[X] Create a new organizational unit of the FLF based around a half-platooon.
-[X] Reduce the number of crew on the CFA through automation. Scale medical bays, armouries, accomodations, assault shuttles, and common areas to the reduced crew in order to free up the necessary tonnage. Inquire with line captains and marines to see if a single shuttle would be appropriate if the second shuttle were replaced with a pair of lighter sensor drones.
-[X] If possible, integrate improvements in weapons into the CFA Flt. IIs to further free up tonnage.
-[X] Impress upon the Citizen's Council that we want to begin the buildup necessary to defeat the Lydians once and for all. They've been asking for us to fight the war, and this is it. Point out that, while it will take years and much sacrifice, following the liberation of the northern polities, there will be vast new markets for Home's goods to be sold at and we will make lots of money off of our investment.
-[X] Clandestinely reach out to the Daughters to gain their support in this war.
-[X] In addition to the defensive and logistics/R&R/manufacturing stations, begin drafting construction of new warships that can better make use of new technologies, including a successor class to the CFAs for escorting the fleet and a Cruiser, Large Flagship to lead the fleet and carry the mass drivers in turrets (with the hull forming the basis of an eventual fleet carrier).
-[X] Draw up plans for a large-scale smash and grab raid on the "prison planet" utilizing the MAT and a converted modular conveyor for passenger transport and sufficient number of escorting vessels to deal with a force of stealth ships or potential orbital / ground defenses.
 
[X] OPLAN: Liberty Ship
-[X] Attempt to peacefully retrieve the diplomatic team from Menorb. While there, try and deploy stealthed spy sensors to collect information on Menorb, and if possible, embed clandestine intelligence assets. Also attempt to determine more about Menorb's willingness to voluntarily side with the Lydians after the Lydians have been ousted.
-[X] Utilize the new surveyors and some moderate escorts to attempt a deep run around known Lydian space to try and get an idea of what's beyond them to the Galactic East and West, as range and logistics allow.
-[X] Stations should be designed of standard "cells" that can link together. Fuelling, replenishment, mining, and manufacturing cells should be fully automated. Defence and recreation cells should be semi-automated.
-[X] Purchase TL10 weapons and drives from the Aslan, in a repeat of the previous deal. Ask for a discount because we're going to be using it to deal with the Lydians, who they have had negative encounters with in the past.
--[X] The MIC should assess the ongoing integration of Aslan immigrants into Home society.
-[X] Reduce the number of crew on the CFA through automation. Scale medical bays, armouries, accomodations, assault shuttles, and common areas to the reduced crew in order to free up the necessary tonnage. Inquire with line captains and marines to see if a single shuttle would be appropriate if the second shuttle were replaced with a pair of lighter sensor drones.
-[X] If possible, integrate improvements in weapons into the CFA Flt. IIs to further free up tonnage (notably non-prototype beam barbettes on the B design).
-[X] Impress upon the Citizen's Council that we want to begin the buildup necessary to defeat the Lydians once and for all. They've been asking for us to fight the war, and this is it. Point out that, while it will take years and much sacrifice, following the liberation of the northern polities, there will be vast new markets for Home's goods to be sold at and we will make lots of money off of our investment.
-[X] Clandestinely reach out to the Daughters to gain their support in this war.
-[X] In addition to the defensive and logistics/R&R/manufacturing stations, begin drafting construction/design of new and existing warships. Revise the CFA-D into a Flt II design for future construction that takes advantage of new technology to improve capabilities and increase firepower. Begin design of a Cruiser, Large Command that provides command facilities for a formation and mounts powerful railgun weaponry as a primary armament and is capable of providing command and control to an entire fleet. This hull should also form as the basis for an eventual fleet carrier. Revise the patrol carrier design to carry autonomous strike drones (based on the same 10-ton light fighter chassis or similar vessel), using tonnage from pilot living quarters to install improved PD and improved sensor and computer capabilities.
-[X] Draw up plans for a large-scale smash and grab raid on the "prison planet" utilizing the MAT and a converted modular conveyor for passenger transport and sufficient number of escorting vessels to deal with a force of stealth ships or potential orbital / ground defenses
 
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[X] OPLAN: Colditz
Regarding Lydian Space:
-[X] Write in: Focus our efforts on long-range recon and surveillance of Lydian space, culminating in a prison break of as many Lydian political prisoners as possible via an FLF Ranger drop alongside a simultaneous rescue operation on Menorb-as long as intelligence proves these freed prisoners can be trusted. Full retrofitting of our fleet to meet the inevitable Lydian response, and eventually launch a full liberation of their "rightful territory", should be conducted in concert with our Aslan and human allies in Xyri and Cassalon
Regarding station development
-[X] Non-automated platforms - we cannot trust a hackable computer.
Regarding CFA development
-[X] Write in: Rather than reducing crew comforts, reduce crew size via automation, freeing veteran spacers to crew new FFEs and CFAs as they are built.
Space Warfare Counterintelligence Directorate SIGINT Report 910-q, organized under Casefile 19M (Code: Wayward)

[Analyst's note: document recovered from Multispectrum Warfare Office computer terminal within personal quarters of subject Novohal, L. Recommend increased data-worm surveillance to prevent wildcat strike activity.]

Rav Colonel Bloch,

Please find attached our latest effort down here in the bowels to resolve this Lydian crisis. All your best intel eyes and ears ought to be at this little shindig, and of course all I want in return is a place on the prison strike team.

And, of course, a dinner at that nice Etalon place in the old city...a good chance to discuss departmental coordination, of course.

All my

Your comrade,

Lenore Major Novohal.
 
Rat King said:
You can kinda get away with it by carrying three jumps on external tanks
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The problem with external tanks is that the attach points and ports would ruin the stealth profile. Does the required jump fuel per jump increase with ship tonnage, or is it a flat value? If it's a flat value, then we just have to make the ship larger. The point of the class isn't to fight off ships peer to peer, it's to damage and destroy the infrastructure required to build, maintain, and supply a war fleet.
 
The jump tanks also seem to potentially mess with our jump accuracy, so it would be interesting to see how a ship with only internal jump fuel would differ.
 
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Shaara1929 said:
The problem with external tanks is that the attach points and ports would ruin the stealth profile. Does the required jump fuel per jump increase with ship tonnage, or is it a flat value? If it's a flat value, then we just have to make the ship larger. The point of the class isn't to fight off ships peer to peer, it's to damage and destroy the infrastructure required to build, maintain, and supply a war fleet.
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It's a percentage based on jump level and tonnage of the ship; for our J-1s it's 10% of tonnage per jump, which means a six jump ship is unfortunately 60% of tonnage before engines, drives, weapons, etc, are considered.

Could see if we can put ramscoops on it so it can just cost around and refuel.
 
So if we made a 5k ton design, 3k would be taken up by fuel. That still leaves 2k for the engine, drive, and weapons, and crew quarters. I know it's not going to be as strong as a similar tonnage ship, but thats not the point. The point is to arrive in a system, dump munitions into a target, and jump out before a response can be made. That's all this ship would need to do.
 
An alternative point of view would be that perhaps we are being a bit too optimitic by trying to wage war on an enemy potentially 5-6 jumps away (one-way) from home.

Perhaps it may be worth re-focusing on our close neighbours and surrounding systems.
 
Shaara1929 said:
So if we made a 5k ton design, 3k would be taken up by fuel. That still leaves 2k for the engine, drive, and weapons, and crew quarters. I know it's not going to be as strong as a similar tonnage ship, but thats not the point. The point is to arrive in a system, dump munitions into a target, and jump out before a response can be made. That's all this ship would need to do.
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Why is this advantageous versus tanking up one parsec away?
 
"Interstellar Cruiser" - 1000t
"Cruiser, Fast Attack" - 3000t
"Cruiser, Large Flagship" - 10,000t
for fuck's sake just call it a battleship
This cruiser inflation is getting silly.

Maxin_inc said:
We've not considered the angle of declaring the Lydian government an illegal government due to the nature of them using fusion guns against the war treaty meaning we have all the legitimacy we need to topple their government.
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They haven't signed the treaty.
And would probably laugh and fusion gun anyone who tried to make them.

They're definitely a rogue state but the treaty isn't one of the reasons.

This isn't very "rules-based international order" but if you're a hegemon with thorough superiority to any possible rival you can get away with a lot of shit. The question is, are they overconfident from too long beating up on low-tech planets who can only muster a handful of light defence boats, or are we overconfident from never getting into a real fight and about to sign ourselves up to get facerolled by a squadron of 50,000t battlewagons?

For a "submarine", would it actually need to be big? You could probably do it on 500t I'd think.

Rolewise something like this would have a couple duties:
  1. Sneaky backline bombardment
  2. Commando raids on insufficiently-protected targets
  3. Wartime combat service
  4. Stealth recon
If you're just jumping in, creeping in-system, kicking some mass driver slugs down range, watching the impact and booking it you don't really need armour or much of a ship at all.

If you want to use it like the Lydians or specialise in commando ops or build something that can be completely self-sustaining in the field you might need a bigger ship but I'm not sure a full-size cruiser is necessary.

Features that would be good for one, as I see it:
  1. Range, of course, to fuck around outside the reach of supply lines. But how much? We could, for example, have a wolfpack staging out of deep space supply caches or linking up with flotilla ships. More than 6 jumps is probably a waste, and even then I'd probably want some of it to be droptanks.
  2. Armament - torpedoes are flexible and could be used in combat but can be intercepted; mass drivers are destructive but can't hit a movable target; mdcs are both murderously destructive (perhaps imbalancedly so?) and lethal in combat, but are relatively short ranged against a moving enemy.
  3. Sensors - a stealth craft probably shouldn't be using extendo-eyes or extension net drones but an on-board observatory could be very useful for target identification. Though would every ship have them, for solo missions, or would these operate as a wolfpack with one of the ships being a dedicated stealth surveyor?
  4. Defences including M-drive speed - a stealth ship's main defence is not being seen. Anything else is to buy time to jump away. Ideally you should never be in range of an armed opponent, so more than token armour and point defence is pointless. Though defence weapons don't weigh much.
  5. Reaction drive boosters are handy for making an escape or for keeping up with your own torpedoes while you fire multiple salvoes for a simultaneous impact but need fuel.
  6. Raiding capacity - cargo, marines, assault shuttles. Helping ourselves to vital intel or grabbing prisoners for interrogation could be useful, but heavy to carry and dangerous. Dumping a stack of mines onto someone else's backline might also be a trick, though damned unfriendly behaviour.
  7. Crew endurance - common spaces, RnR facilities etc. I know about submarines but we have a small population and most people aren't built for living in a tin can for months. Even if you tough it out, better facilities means better performance in the critical final moments of a mission.
  8. Self-sustainment - hydroponics, self-refueling drones and refineries, small-scale mining, refining, and manufacturing capacity to fabricate parts and either pad out supplies or perform missions of potentially indefinite length. Automating away crew positions makes hydroponics a lot easier.
Droptank inaccuracy presumably only matters for the final jump, so if your target is 3 parsecs away and you have to make the whole flight alone you'd want a ship with 2 droptanks and 4 fuel internally; you'd arrive accurately using internal fuel, then return.

Do we have Emissions Absorption Grids or are those the wrong edition?

I think there's also some kind of half-thrust stealth M-Drive but I'm not sure what TL it is or if I hallucinated it.

Tallhart said:
An alternative point of view would be that perhaps we are being a bit too optimitic by trying to wage war on an enemy potentially 5-6 jumps away (one-way) from home.

Perhaps it may be worth re-focusing on our close neighbours and surrounding systems.
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An unpatriotic point of view, perhaps? Are the lives of our spacers worth nothing? Should the civilian diplomats of the Ba Kim be left in the hands of ruthless interstellar criminals? /s

Tbh from an ooc perspective it's kind of a shame to spend so much time on warships which then don't fight wars, even if that's realistic and normal. Icly we know that "not intruding on the Lydians" isn't much of a defence from them and it doesn't seem possible to prevent ships from intruding into a system; it may be that if we stay home we'll eventually find stealth ships in our own skies as they extend their "security perimeter" farther or conduct a "neutralise hostile interstellar power" op of their own.

Settling into a cold war could still be expensive if we have to fortify our three main systems on the assumption that a stealth squadron could jump out of the black at any moment. Though we'd have to do that in wartime too.

I think any precondition for peace would be the return of the Ba Kim, Sekhmet, and Baal, and all crewmembers living or dead (because we can't trust these fucks if they say "no we never found the body" though I suspect anyone they got their hands on is already dead) and any sort of reparations we can get out of them.

They claim to want peace but have a very funny way of showing it - among other things it isn't much of a defence perimeter if you systematically hide its existence.
 
C_Z said:
Why is this advantageous versus tanking up one parsec away?
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Greater strike range. If we had a supply point in menorb, for instance, we could strike anywhere in that exclusion zone Lydia has. With one parsec of jump range it restricts us to just the systems around Menorb. Additionally, Menorb is easier for the Lydians to strike in return, so my ship proposal would able to strike Lydian territory while keeping our logistics further away from them.
 
wonder if it would be possible to seed spy's on the occupied world, by way of drive-by ship. might have to make a custom design for this express purpose.
 
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