We are already in a war. We have had our station seized and destroyed, and our ships attacked. This will continue whether we do anything or not. The time for diplomacy is over, and we need to secure our position in the northern systems to enable the prosecution of this war in the enemies territory, not ours.
Traveller, The Rise of Empire: A Naval Design, Procurement and Command Quest
- Thread starter 4WheelSword
- Start date
- Original Art Quest Sci-Fi
- Location
- Wörms, the half continent
I'm not saying we do nothing, or act like a pacifist, but we need to ensure we don't step over lines - people were proposing "burning your shit to the ground until we get our people back" - which is not the kind of action conducive to an eventual negotiated settlement. Likewise, your own claim that "diplomacy is over" - no, just because we're at war doesn't mean we should stop doing diplomacy. Diplomacy is essential to eventually ending the war, unless you think you're Grant reborn.
I suspect the lack of armour is due to them using meson guns, which bypass armour, so they don't see armour as "worth it". Combine that with the stealth hulls meaning they're unlikely to be engaged outside the effective range of meson guns, and they're unlikely to be put in a position where the lack of armour will be significant. Think of them kinda like submarines.
The problem is that we don't really have a good way of forcing a peace on them diplomatically. They can attack wherever they want, and will almost certainly get the first strike off; our counter to this pretty much limited to having a heavy enough armament that our retaliatory hit once they reveal themselves will make the engagement mutually destructive. They can continue persecuting this war indefinitely since we can't do better than a 1:1 exchange ratio, unless we somehow pull a Grant and wage a scorched earth campaign all the way to their shipyards.
(@4WheelSword, Could you please tell, did we upgrade our EWAR fighters with production TL10 sensors? It would be a significant upgrade for them.
Ok, so - "We have the answer to these ships - it's a carrier". Why?
Because, maybe they do have them, but maybe they don't. Our fleet is roughly built to fight ships like our own - we pay attention to armour, to point defence, and somewhat to firepower - because we expect a lot of projectiles to come our way and to intercept them.
But these guys have meson guns, that do radiological damage and ignore armor, and aren't shot by PD. They probably expect their enemy to be armed with something similar - and armor is useless against the mesons. What they have instead is tactical speed/evasion, and stealth - they want to do the first strike and then evade the retaliation. Look at results, maneuver around, strike again.
our CFA could hold it's ground by being able to absorbe a lot of damage and by shooting the torpedoes from longer range, and then to escape on the better M-drive.
Mesons are bay weapons - they are big guns against the individual big ships.
Conversely, carrier brings a lot of fighters with their own (worse, admittedly) stealth. These are small and numerous targets that meson bays are not suited to shoot at. They have missiles, but enemy has low armour, so missiles would be good against them. And our fighters also have tactical speed, with their own rocket thrusters. So they can pursue them (maybe with the equal speed) and throw missiles on them.
Which why in hindsight the Aslan ships should also be good - they also carry the fighters.
Ok, so - "We have the answer to these ships - it's a carrier". Why?
Because, maybe they do have them, but maybe they don't. Our fleet is roughly built to fight ships like our own - we pay attention to armour, to point defence, and somewhat to firepower - because we expect a lot of projectiles to come our way and to intercept them.
But these guys have meson guns, that do radiological damage and ignore armor, and aren't shot by PD. They probably expect their enemy to be armed with something similar - and armor is useless against the mesons. What they have instead is tactical speed/evasion, and stealth - they want to do the first strike and then evade the retaliation. Look at results, maneuver around, strike again.
our CFA could hold it's ground by being able to absorbe a lot of damage and by shooting the torpedoes from longer range, and then to escape on the better M-drive.
Mesons are bay weapons - they are big guns against the individual big ships.
Conversely, carrier brings a lot of fighters with their own (worse, admittedly) stealth. These are small and numerous targets that meson bays are not suited to shoot at. They have missiles, but enemy has low armour, so missiles would be good against them. And our fighters also have tactical speed, with their own rocket thrusters. So they can pursue them (maybe with the equal speed) and throw missiles on them.
Which why in hindsight the Aslan ships should also be good - they also carry the fighters.
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- Pronouns
- He/Him
We frankly cannot really make a strike with how little we know. What would we strike other than the three planets whose relationship to the raiders is unclear? Honestly I'm not sure what to do here other than to order another patrol carrier and to proceed with caution while we try to learn more. I think its clear that the smaller ships aren't really suited to fighting this enemy so I'd rather not get any more small frigates, which we're wanting to replace with larger PD ships anyway.
[ ] Another Patrol Carrier
[ ] They will urge caution, arguing for a measured response.
[ ] Another Patrol Carrier
[ ] They will urge caution, arguing for a measured response.
- Location
- Here, there, everywhere.
Considering an entire combat capable ship was disabled by having it's bridge shot out... I wonder if we could look into designing ships with more dispersed command centers and safety features. Build two separate bridges both capable of commanding the ship, when the primary bridge is online the secondary one acts primarily as a much bigger sensor and information suite, meanwhile rather than double the pilot use of the ship by adding a second set of pilots to the newly added bridge the pilots themselves are removed from the command deck entirely and placed in a highly armored box in a central location with everything they need to fly the ship and if need be fly it in emergency conditions back home with sustained combat damage to both command decks.
I will note that my plan calls for another carrier. I will also note that command decisions have been given to the officer commanding the fleet in my plan, allowing her to make a decision on how aggressive to be without a delay of weeks. Authorizing use of radiological weapons and bombardment of infrastructure is only to enable the commander on scene to make those decisions, given our fleets past restriction of local commander initiative.
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Carriers are absolutely NOT the answer to these ships, IMO. They're one of the worst things we could be building right now.
Yes, carriers bring a number of fighters which the meson guns are bad at shooting at. However, the carrier brings less torpedoes or missiles than a CFA. The advantage a carrier brings when fighting a "normal" opponent is that it can launch an attack from outside the range of the enemy weapons. We will likely not be fighting outside the range of enemy weapons, since we have to roll insanely high in order to even see these guys if they haven't opened fire.
There's an arguable benefit in that a carrier could deploy spacecraft to act as distant sensors, but I think that the most efficient sensor spacecraft is larger than what our carrier can handle, and would be better done by fitting an enlarged hangar onto a cruiser.
[x] Plan: Same General Direction
-[x] Another Patrol Carrier (improve the fighters and ship with non-prototype tl10 sensors, if we haven't already)
-[x] one new "Skirmisher Frigate" - Stealth Armor + Radshields, less overall armor. Switch bay weapon to torpedoes. Add chemical thruster + some fuel. Drop medbay, if necessary.
-[x] refit one flight II frigate into the " prototype sensor picket". Downgrade weapons (switch to torpedo small bay or even pair of torp barbettes). Add the shallow penetration suit and the sensor extension net.
-[x] Retain the services of our 4 Aslan ships.
-[x] Un-mothball the Monitor and add it to Home fleet. Allow usage of Particle beams on it and other ships in case of attack on Home.
-[x] They will urge moderation. We don't know any real targets to strike at. It is not absolutely necessary to strike, either - use your own discretion. If she gets some combat successes and finds the enemy beatable, she may try chasing them around other two known systems. If enemy is more dangerous, maybe posturing and attempting to make a diplomatic contact is better than risking her fleet. If things are even harder, keep to the forward base near the protection of mines. Anyway, we can't micromanage her even at this distance. Keeping her own fleet undestroyed is a primary objective. Getting our crewmembers back is also a primary. Getting enemy ships killed, trophies and prisoners is a secondary. Getitng back our own ships from enemy is also a secondary, maybe less priority than enemy pows/tech/kills. Use her own discretion, again.
--[x] along with the courier, reinforce her with the Patrol Carrier and our two additional Aslan ships. If they can't find Omarov, sit at the forward base.
Don't think that those "skirmisher frigates" would be very useful against this enemy, but better than our current one - as long as they don't try to "escort" and keep themselves behin our main ships/at the perifery of fighting/try to flank. We just don't have tonnage to build more CFAs.
our EWAR fighter do carry our best (basic) sensors though. They don't have the extension net or shallow something suit, but they have tl10 sensors which are their main mission quipment.
So, remaining money would be 6000Mcr -2100Mcr (carrier) -800MCr (Aslans) -~300x2 (two new frigates) = 2500MCr remain.
Yardspace: 21,500Dtons -14,900 (current usage) -5500 (carrier) -500x2(frigates) = 100Dtons remain unused
-[x] Another Patrol Carrier (improve the fighters and ship with non-prototype tl10 sensors, if we haven't already)
-[x] one new "Skirmisher Frigate" - Stealth Armor + Radshields, less overall armor. Switch bay weapon to torpedoes. Add chemical thruster + some fuel. Drop medbay, if necessary.
-[x] refit one flight II frigate into the " prototype sensor picket". Downgrade weapons (switch to torpedo small bay or even pair of torp barbettes). Add the shallow penetration suit and the sensor extension net.
-[x] Retain the services of our 4 Aslan ships.
-[x] Un-mothball the Monitor and add it to Home fleet. Allow usage of Particle beams on it and other ships in case of attack on Home.
-[x] They will urge moderation. We don't know any real targets to strike at. It is not absolutely necessary to strike, either - use your own discretion. If she gets some combat successes and finds the enemy beatable, she may try chasing them around other two known systems. If enemy is more dangerous, maybe posturing and attempting to make a diplomatic contact is better than risking her fleet. If things are even harder, keep to the forward base near the protection of mines. Anyway, we can't micromanage her even at this distance. Keeping her own fleet undestroyed is a primary objective. Getting our crewmembers back is also a primary. Getting enemy ships killed, trophies and prisoners is a secondary. Getitng back our own ships from enemy is also a secondary, maybe less priority than enemy pows/tech/kills. Use her own discretion, again.
--[x] along with the courier, reinforce her with the Patrol Carrier and our two additional Aslan ships. If they can't find Omarov, sit at the forward base.
Don't think that those "skirmisher frigates" would be very useful against this enemy, but better than our current one - as long as they don't try to "escort" and keep themselves behin our main ships/at the perifery of fighting/try to flank. We just don't have tonnage to build more CFAs.
our EWAR fighter do carry our best (basic) sensors though. They don't have the extension net or shallow something suit, but they have tl10 sensors which are their main mission quipment.
So, remaining money would be 6000Mcr -2100Mcr (carrier) -800MCr (Aslans) -~300x2 (two new frigates) = 2500MCr remain.
Yardspace: 21,500Dtons -14,900 (current usage) -5500 (carrier) -500x2(frigates) = 100Dtons remain unused
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Yeah, but the Extension Net and Improved Sensor Processing are huge if we want to try to detect at very long ranges. Otherwise I think we need to roll two sixes to even see the target.
I would much rather build a new CFA, refit a frigate into a picket with an advanced sensor suite, and build a jump tug.
Rat King
Izutsumi-pilled
Even crash-building a new sensor vessel will take a while (and arguably, the new deep space surveyors will be available earlier for that purpose).
We could see if the Aslan are willing to sell us more tech now, although the price will probably go up.
So aside from auxiliary craft, I think we need to build designs we already have - the carrier and/or flight II CFAs. We could work on the in-system minelayers at this point as well, as well as the tugs and additional defensive stations.
We could see if the Aslan are willing to sell us more tech now, although the price will probably go up.
So aside from auxiliary craft, I think we need to build designs we already have - the carrier and/or flight II CFAs. We could work on the in-system minelayers at this point as well, as well as the tugs and additional defensive stations.
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in 4 month we will have our new Surveyors and FSS built, which frees 7600Dtons (I think) of yardspace. With our 2.5Mcr remaining, we would be able to order 1 more CFA and some new frigates too.
our defence stations, even the new one that Aslan are building, do not have RadShielding.
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- Location
- Wörms, the half continent
Frigates are always worth building, we just need to reclassify the sizes so that a 5kt vessel is now a frigate
They are quick to build, require a single pilot and can do some things on the battlefield - just one thing only. Though not escort - they really suck as escorts apparently. But they can be quick/stealthy gun platforms, or "sensor pickets" - so long as we don't expect them to stand their ground and take punishment. Kite from the edges, or hide behind the other ships (actual escorts).
I've switched one new "skirmish" frigate with refitting one of Flight-IIs into the "sensor picket frigate". It's a good idea, we have this equipment only on MDS, apparently.
Rat King
Izutsumi-pilled
[X] OPLAN: Sacred War
-[X] Construct a jump tug capable of hauling 6k tons in civilian yards
-[X] Construct 2xCFA-B Flight II with improved torpedo armament, sensors, and armor. (6k tons, 2800 MCred)
-[X] Refit 1xEhanced Frigate to EWAR Variant with improved sensor capability (and reduced weapons) for use as picket ship. (500 tons, ??? Mcred)
-[X] Excess tonnage used to develop a small EWAR picket that can be carried aboard a CFA or other vessel in the standard 50-ton berthing/hangar as the existing assault shuttle.
-[X] Retain Aslan mercenaries.
-[X] Inquire with the Aslan about acquiring additional technology - especially sensors tech.
-[X] They will urge something else - HSWS command staff will inform the council that this war is likely to be a long one, fought at great distance, and that building the ability to take the war to the enemy and win decisively will take time considering the enemy capabilities, construction times, and our need for additional hulls. We support the continued presence of Vice-Marshall Omarov in Menorb as a recon-in-force but will be recalling them in the near future. We do not currently know the location of the enemy's home system or their industries or shipyards; we will need to construct a series of fortified bases with mines, defense stations, and logistic hubs, to the northern reaches and potentially beyond in order to effectively counter the enemy stealth vessels, locate their bases, and smash their war-making capability.
--[X] Omarov will be ordered to assess the situation in Menorb and act in a moderate manner, considering the need to keep other stations manned and the loss of previous fleet units; she is trusted to make decisions and execute her own tactical plans without meddling or micro-managing from high command beyond the broad strategic directive that we wish to preserve our fleet as we begin work on additional ships and we wish to discover and fix the enemy facilities and home systems for a future campaign. She will be informed that the new patrol carrier will be sent to her, along with additional reinforcements as we can make them available (including further Aslan units).
--[X] Have the MAT on standbay for a civil defense emergency exercise.
-[X] Construct a jump tug capable of hauling 6k tons in civilian yards
-[X] Construct 2xCFA-B Flight II with improved torpedo armament, sensors, and armor. (6k tons, 2800 MCred)
-[X] Refit 1xEhanced Frigate to EWAR Variant with improved sensor capability (and reduced weapons) for use as picket ship. (500 tons, ??? Mcred)
-[X] Excess tonnage used to develop a small EWAR picket that can be carried aboard a CFA or other vessel in the standard 50-ton berthing/hangar as the existing assault shuttle.
-[X] Retain Aslan mercenaries.
-[X] Inquire with the Aslan about acquiring additional technology - especially sensors tech.
-[X] They will urge something else - HSWS command staff will inform the council that this war is likely to be a long one, fought at great distance, and that building the ability to take the war to the enemy and win decisively will take time considering the enemy capabilities, construction times, and our need for additional hulls. We support the continued presence of Vice-Marshall Omarov in Menorb as a recon-in-force but will be recalling them in the near future. We do not currently know the location of the enemy's home system or their industries or shipyards; we will need to construct a series of fortified bases with mines, defense stations, and logistic hubs, to the northern reaches and potentially beyond in order to effectively counter the enemy stealth vessels, locate their bases, and smash their war-making capability.
--[X] Omarov will be ordered to assess the situation in Menorb and act in a moderate manner, considering the need to keep other stations manned and the loss of previous fleet units; she is trusted to make decisions and execute her own tactical plans without meddling or micro-managing from high command beyond the broad strategic directive that we wish to preserve our fleet as we begin work on additional ships and we wish to discover and fix the enemy facilities and home systems for a future campaign. She will be informed that the new patrol carrier will be sent to her, along with additional reinforcements as we can make them available (including further Aslan units).
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- Location
- Somewhere in the stacks
- Pronouns
- She/Her
[X] OPLAN: Sacred War
[X] OPLAN: Sacred War
This will be a long war. Fighting a series of bite-and-hold attacks where we move forward one hex, transport a defensive station there and surround it with a minefield, then send the fleet in force onwards to the next hex will take time, but will reduce our losses and provide the best security of Home's assets. (we should basically commit ourselves to an island-hopping campaign instead of trying to rush straight at Japan, since we don't even know where Japan is)
The only suggestions I have, @Rat King, is to refit a frigate instead of building a new one, given the urgency, and that if we have any spare tonnage, to try and build a small recon shuttle that can be carried inside the hangar of a CFA.
This will be a long war. Fighting a series of bite-and-hold attacks where we move forward one hex, transport a defensive station there and surround it with a minefield, then send the fleet in force onwards to the next hex will take time, but will reduce our losses and provide the best security of Home's assets. (we should basically commit ourselves to an island-hopping campaign instead of trying to rush straight at Japan, since we don't even know where Japan is)
The only suggestions I have, @Rat King, is to refit a frigate instead of building a new one, given the urgency, and that if we have any spare tonnage, to try and build a small recon shuttle that can be carried inside the hangar of a CFA.
I don't care about building the CFAs over second carrier (both options are good), but I think refitting one frigate into a "sensor scout" would be quicker than building from scratch. And the sooner we have it, the sooner we can use it.
Why won't we reinforce Omarov at this point? She is also a carrier expert, so she could use both our carrier and Aslan semi-carriers decently, supposedly. Even if we would want to pull her back later, which is ok, getting her more ships would reduce the chance that the enemy would wreck her fleet.
Also, this option is not about informing the council - it's about informing Omarov.
Eh. Where are we going to build those bases? We have no idea what are we fighting even and where is their industry, what is the extent of their polity and so on.
It's kinda both overly ambitious strategically - we don't know a thing but are already planning on some great advance into the unknown, and at the same time on tactical scale we do not reinforce our fleet there and do not really order them to do anything. Omarov's current fleet is not that much larger than Gebara's was. The chance that she would really want some reinforcements is significant, I think.
I'm not against telling the council that we have a plan and we are pursuing it and keep the money going (this is good) - but let's not ignore our task force in field.
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Rat King
Izutsumi-pilled
I've added more direct orders to Omarov. However, I think the broad idea (strategically) is not necessarily over ambitious. As of now, we have difficulty finding the enemy and firing the first shots - we also do not know if the enemy operates out of hte three northern systems or if they have a home base beyond them. The only way to be sure of that will be to secure each system in turn, establish an armed presence, and then scour it - and we will need to secure our logistics line to each system in turn to do so, while maintaining fleet strength. As @C_Z notes, this is going to be "bite and hold" to ensure that we don't get our fleet whacked.
