I am still planning to use the implements used for the ritual and the recording of the event as foci, yes. After we leave the island. Security and safety are important.
Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy
Ivar
Dark Reaper
- Location
- Russia Moscow
Well, at least we didn't get another glimpse into ancient memory like with our dragons and ancient kings... But in any case, I think information about the outside world is a good idea. We don't even know how Skinwalker is contained or what he will ask for. Or she.
COMMENTARY
Demonreach demonstrates that, like some of us feared, other people can see us use the Crown if they are powerful enough.
This was a warning.
It could have gone much worse.
Did we just see the Eye of Balor in Ethniu's head? Does she already have it?
We also got confirmation that Nemesis is manipulating Ethniu somehow. Whether they have a formal alliance, or it just has agents in her Court is unknown.
Is Demonreach speaking in Malfean Green?
The discovery of Ethniu's intent is probably reason for a few discreet meetings with Mab and Titania both.
A quiet note to Odin and Ivy is in order as well. And we probably need to invest effort into figuring out IC who and what the Fomori are; thankfully, I think we still have foci from Rhys the Ragged and the Cleveland Affair to use.
AFTER talking to Bob first for an overview of the Fomori, their ruler King Corb and Ethniu.
Demonreach has heard of Malfeas.
Makes sense; he/she is currently holding two Celestial Exalts after all, one of them a Sidereal he calls the Secret Keeper, and has a Celestial Exalt detector mounted outside the entrance to its jail.
Thats the sort of thing which requires a certain amount of lore.
Poor Michael.
I cant imagine the stress the man is under with his eldest daughter tangling with this sort of scary ass shit.
I would be ask Demonreach how many previous Wardens its had, but there's two problems with that
1) The White Council undoubtedly knows, as do the Fae, Odin and most of the big players
2) OOC, it forces the QM to make declarations that they might need to change as the story goes on.
So pass.
Going to note that there's a good chance Odin knows about the Exalts here, the Dark One and the Secret Keeper.
Which might recontextualize Odin wanting Molly out of Chicago.
And his current search for Exalts; he knows where 3 are, which leaves the Lunar and the Solar.
There's another Abyssal somewhere in the Pacific, I think? The one linked to the North African Solar?
Figuring out Ethniu and a nationstate behind her are hostile actors IC justifies combat charm investment as a continud investment. Unbound Eschaton Shintai as a priority.
Also Divination as something to look into, as well as hooking up that satellite network to watch the seas.
And probably a little effort into replacing Harry's coat as a minimum investment in his survivability.
Flubbed the Essence rolloff completely.
Demonreach being E6 seems a little low for someone who is explicitly capable of imprisoning Mab, and did imprison Ethniu in canon. Im assuming he/she gets circumstantial bonuses to its role/core function. Fits the whole Power has Purpose theme of the Dresden Files.
Or its possible thats just a fraction of its true power that was rolled
That was an obscene set of social rolls though.
12 successes on a 20 dice roll at DC8, when the average return is 6 successes. And then 13 successes on a DC7 roll against Harry and Michael. Molly is super scary.
The plan is for her to have the Eye, that does not necessarily mean she has it at the moment
No, it is not that kind of familiar.
Hey, since Molly now knows the name Malfeas would it be possible to use a crown question to find out more about it and thereby learn more about the infernal exalted and primordials? We would need a focus but I bet something in the Demonreach prison would work.
I would love to see Molly learn more about her power and her place in the world after so many chapters of this story. To finally learn what it means to be a Prince of the Earth.
I would love to see Molly learn more about her power and her place in the world after so many chapters of this story. To finally learn what it means to be a Prince of the Earth.
VOTE
[X] Information on the outside world
RATIONALE
I cant justify asking Harry to change the protocols on any particular prisoner when we dont know WHY the protocols were set for that prisoner in the first place. Thats just unwise when dealing with an inmate of Supernatural Supermax.
Harry doesnt even know what the protocols are yet; he has months of study ahead of him.
News from the outside world, OTOH?
Is something that any Warden can share with any inmate they choose to talk to, and I suspect new inmates do share news unless they are explicitly blocked off from doing so.
And naagloshii are in the minimum security section.
Thanks for clarifying. Should add that to the List.
[X] Information on the outside world
RATIONALE
I cant justify asking Harry to change the protocols on any particular prisoner when we dont know WHY the protocols were set for that prisoner in the first place. Thats just unwise when dealing with an inmate of Supernatural Supermax.
Harry doesnt even know what the protocols are yet; he has months of study ahead of him.
News from the outside world, OTOH?
Is something that any Warden can share with any inmate they choose to talk to, and I suspect new inmates do share news unless they are explicitly blocked off from doing so.
And naagloshii are in the minimum security section.
Phew.
Thanks for clarifying. Should add that to the List.
It was a lucky roll from Demonreach, where we had a very bad result and he got an exceptional one.
In the middle of his domain, for a question about him.
Doesn't really feel worthy of being called a warning. It was the best of the best of circumstances for Alfred and it still really wasn't a probable thing.
Edit:
Basically, I see it as the same as when you talked about Harry's botch as if it was a thing we should have taken into account:
You don't take into account something that improbable, it's a waste of time.
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We need to coach Harry on what to ask Demonreach about. He might not think to ask some things, and Demonreach might assume he already knows - the same as happened with Bob and knowledge of Winter's true function and what Outer Gates are.
Point of order - yes, Demonreach detected us using the Crown, but frankly the chances of it succeeding were very slim. It got very lucky. And it's an elder spirit (E6).
Abyssal shard, not an Abyssal.
Very unlikely. Yes, Odin might have been lying and withholding information from Gard. But I doubt it. More likely Odin has no idea, and Demonreach maintains secrecy.
Specifically, the effects of taking such events into account as probable (they are not) results in more downsides statistically speaking, than not doing so. Opportunity costs are a thing.
BoredMan
Maintaining the Agenda is our top priority
This logic doesn't follow here.
The weathervane detected us. Through BMI. Even though we hadn't yet used any essence on the island yet. It detected us the moment we laid foot on the island. We already knew of the island wide intellectus as well and DP gave us several warnings both in and out of story that the Crown can be detected by certain people.
This was a very rational expectation not at all improbable on the face of it, people just ignored it when we had the option of asking questions while not on the island. Don't pretend it couldn't have been expected. We also had no idea how improbable it was that Alfred would detect it(the DC), it was just a rational assumption, at the time, that he'd at least get a roll of some sort.
Edit: And as I said before Nemesis got a roll to resist the Crown both times we used it on him. He may already be aware of its use on his person twice over which would mean that there was already a precedent for this before now on top of everything else.
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BoredMan
Maintaining the Agenda is our top priority
Honestly I would like it if we took this into account for future Crown use instead of dismissing this as something entirely unexpected with no signs to be observed and taken into account. Everyone makes errors but acting like there wasn't data for risk assessment here just means its more likely to happen again in a different scenario. Then the Crown will just get outed to more and more people.
We've been told about using the Crown in front of Mab, the Archive, Titania, and Charon so far. Notice only one of those four has confirmed intellectus.
[X] Information on the outside world
We've been told about using the Crown in front of Mab, the Archive, Titania, and Charon so far. Notice only one of those four has confirmed intellectus.
[X] Information on the outside world
It's exactly the logic to use here. What are benefits vs. what are the risks / costs. If we went strictly logically, Demonreach was ready to release prisoner exalts on Harry's word. So the odds of us using the crown resulting in irreparable damage were slim to none, while the value of intelligence we could gather and gathered was very high. In my mind, the situation paid off in spades. We know about a Nemesis/titaness (I am not spelling that) plan now. And we know that it's the only plan to break Demonreach's prisoners out right now. No one else is planning anything. So, for a relevant example, Denarians aren't planning any break out now.
But it didn't? Otherwise we wouldn't have had the chance to roll subterfuge against it.
Ok. Let's be objective. The probability of Demonreach detecting the crown use was 28% (just did math).
I am fairly sure that contesting a charm's effect is always DC9 if at all possible, but I can't find a quotation.
Nemesis is a Uriel-tier being, and even White God isn't immune to the Crown.
Yes, obviously we need to take into account the possible effects of various beings becoming aware of the Crown use. But that's not a reason not to use the Crown.
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BoredMan
Maintaining the Agenda is our top priority
We do not know this. Demonreach asked if Harry wanted to, it stated nothing of its on opinion on the matter or how it would respond. Jumping to conclusions here.
We could have used it while not on the island and without any apparent risk. Would've gotten the same response from the Crown as well.
This was literally a needless risk. Why are you not getting this?
DragonParadox said that it did.
We know that NOW yes. At the time for all we knew there was to be no roll for the Crown detection and it would've been an automatic success on Alfred's part. It's not as if we've ever successfully used it while in front of someone who may notice it before. The case with Lily didn't have the Crown burn essence nor did Nemesis get a roll to resist so it wasn't actually used.
Our charms have been successfully contested... Three or four times now. With the Murder is Meat charm with the blampire before that that scene was rewritten, with Iku dispelling our armor, and just now.
I'm not sure that this counts as contesting it though, the Crown was never stated anywhere to be inherently stealthy and it did what it was supposed to do.
My point was that there may already be a precedent for Crown use being detected but yes you are correct.
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Because no, we couldn't. We have limited foci and few ways to get more. We still need to ask about escape plans - I, for one, expect our seniors imprisoned here to have some, as well as some others. We need to ask about consequences of Harry becoming a Warden - the odds of the position coming with some outstanding debts or complications are quite high in my opinion. We need to check what Kemmler did to the place / what backdoors exists. Etc. We, or at least I, have more question than we have foci. Right now we have only two that I can see - the implements Harry used in the ritual to become the Warden, and the recording of events happening here. That's not enough.
BoredMan
Maintaining the Agenda is our top priority
What are you talking about??? Why can't we just use rocks or blades of grass from the island as Crown foci for the island? Is there something im not aware of here? We've used the Crown like this before and I've brought it up to you multiple times, why can't we have just done that?
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Aren't we in a cave under a lake? Seems like it'd be cold enough to give us WHWH on that essence roll.
Also, we knew Alfred was nuts but it's interesting that it rolls like an exalt for essence contests. Per RaW there's a table you're typically supposed to use for this when working across systems (at the top of page 54). Exalted essence level isn't the same as spirit essence level. It doesn't give a conversion for that specifically, but if we were rolling against someone using the Mage system for example Molly would count as Arete 8 for this sort of thing as far as I understand it. This isn't precisely a power scale benchmark, just resistance rules for direct stuff.
A big old spirit, especially this big old spirit, having more dice here isn't necessarily surprising - the fact that he rolled against flat essence like we were fighting another exalt is.
The more magical something is, the more remote foci we can use, yes, and Demonreach is very magical. But the more connected the focus is, the better, as has been stated on multiple occasions. A blade of grass from the natural parts of the island would be unlikely to give us insight into Nemesis, I think.
Oddly enough no, it is not all that cold under here, it is about 15 Celsius, chilly but far from freezing.
BoredMan
Maintaining the Agenda is our top priority
Okay. Your just bullshitting me.
Foci from the island such as small rocks that have been here since who knows how long should work just as well as what Harry used for the ritual. There is no particular reason to believe it won't give good results. Demonreach has control over the entire island. Molly has stated in her inner monologue that Demonreach is to Alfred what Sanctuary is to her. It has Lord of the land abilities.
Why would a fleeting scene give better results than an object from the island? There is no actual reason to believe this.
There is such a thing as degree of relation, and also the fact that we can't use every blade of grass as a foci.
If we take a generic part, of Demonreach to use, I would expect the whole category of *generic parts of Demonreach* to go away as soon as we use it.
Not just the blade of grass, the whole category.
Even if Demonreach is extremely magical, there is a limit to how many things we can get from it that way.
Because the scene is happening on the island, and the rock wouldn't be on it anymore.
Degrees of separation.
BoredMan
Maintaining the Agenda is our top priority
Even if this actually was the case its an entire island. It would still have an islands worth of foci for any question we need to ask even if it was only one category per question.
A leaf, a blade of grass, a rock, some sand, a fallen branch etc. Use your imagination. I just came up with five Crown question foci right there.
At the very most you can say that it would be vaguely more useful but even then I'm not seeing it. Scenes can be made again.
Islands are made of the Earth's crust. Bits of it break off due to erosion and the like and boulders/rocks are made. A rock from the island would literally be sourced from a part of the island itself. Alfred has Lord of the Land abilities (as we saw during the ritual with Harry and canon) and this place has been compared to Sanctuary in Molly's head along with Lydia also making the comparison. Rocks would make a fine foci arguably even better than a renewable scene.
Because the scene is significant to significant beings, and the blade of grass / rock aren't. At least that's my assumption. We definitely don't get infinite foci. Not in most situations. I think that has been very clear through the story.
As I said, I don't regret using the crown here at all. We got valuable intelligence, learned something about Demonreach both IC and OCC, and didn't cause (large) offense due to having a good reason for what we did and producing valuable intel which we shared.
BoredMan
Maintaining the Agenda is our top priority
Yes they are. Have you've been reading my post? Any part of Sanctuary itself would be relevant to Molly, this place has been described to feel like such by Lydia and Molly also made the comparison. When asked Butcher stated that the reason why Alfred has a limp is because a glacier crashed into the island. Alfred effectively IS DEMONREACH.
Scenes are spammable and I'm rather positive that we got a ruling on how far we can stretch them for Crown questions.
Read my reply to Nyarky. Assuming one Crown question per category of object still gives us at least five Crown question and really more than that if you were to think on it. We'd be fine without using the scene.
It was a needless risk. The same benefit very likely could've been gained while using the Crown off the island. Demonreach could've had a worse reaction and now someone else who is aware of Exalted has an idea of our level of precog which means its less of a secret now by default.
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Considering he literally called it out by name I'm pretty sure he's aware that we could just do that it is not your place to fate read here and then later that paragraph please don't fate read here we weren't surprising him and that's probably why he even got a roll in the first place we didn't Ambush him with this shit he didn't know we could do.
BoredMan
Maintaining the Agenda is our top priority
Your jumping to conclusions. He did not literally call it out by name.
Alfred is aware of Exalted to an unknown degree. It may not have surprised him because he may have been aware of similar abilities from other Exalted or extremely powerful beings in setting. It does not at all mean he knew of the our possession of the Crown of Eyes. Some other characters that are imprisoned can probably fate read on some level depending on what exactly is locked away.