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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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DragonParadox said:
  1. They passed still living into the Underworld seeking the treasures of Arawn that they might revive Arthur though his time had come, his fate was sealed. They stole the Cauldron of Rebirth but before they could use it the hounds and the armies of Arawn fell upon them and dragged them and it back. After all these years in the depths of the spirit world it is unlikely that any of them could walk the earth just by wishing it but they are heroes of old, the blood of gods in their veins. If they are freed they will find a way,
  2. They hounds do not know, they have never tried speaking to them
  3. Same as above
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1. So, do I understand correctly, that we would be freeing three prisoners, and not Arthur?
2-3. Would the hounds be willing to escort us to the place of their imprisonment, so we can check and learn more and maybe talk to them?

Exmorri said:
I don't think the prisoners know enough about the outside world to have concrete plans, and Crown Rules say we can't ask what they will do after learning about the current state of outside world.
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HOw would you formulate the question then? Use "intentions" instead maybe? The idea is to check prisoner disposition.

BronzeTongue said:
Celestial exalts just happening throughout history doesn't make sense with what we've seen of the setting so far. For one thing, do you think the faerie queens could have had all the involvement they did with Arthur and not noticed what Molly's exaltation was once they had it?

Additionally, ExWoD lays out that if you stop short of killing a celestial exalt with something they will eventually recover. If he was Solar he wouldn't have needed double immortality and probably couldn't have taken it up anyway.
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Wait. I am stupid. Arthur Pendragon. He's totally a dragonblooded exalt.

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BoredMan said:
Your voting for Yog who wants to release them now. We don't know how Arthur in particular will respond to Britain or if they even care for the concept of keeping magic on the down low. They don't have to attack us for this to escalate like Boston.
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I will probably switch back-ish soon, further muddling the waters, as I work out a more detailed plan that isn't just "ask questions"
 
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[x] Offer to strengthen the door that leads to the prison of the three and onto Arthur's return from Avalon

[X] Learn more. Why should the heroes of the land be barred from returning? Whose will is it that bids them to be bound? What consequences of their return
-[X] Etiquette excellency
-[X] Use the Crown on the current scene to find what the prisoners are planning to do if they are freed
-[X] Lydia uses Akashic Root Methodology to learn more about the prisoners

[X] Offer to strengthen the door that leads to the prison of the three and onto Arthur's return from Avalon
-[X] Use the Crown on the current scene to find what the prisoners are planning to do if they are freed
-[X] Lydia uses Akashic Root Methodology to learn more about the prisoners

I'm gonna press X to Doubt on suddenly releasing a Bronze Age supreme dictator plus pals into the world. Chesteron's Fence people.
 
Yog said:
1. So, do I understand correctly, that we would be freeing three prisoners, and not Arthur?
2-3. Would the hounds be willing to escort us to the place of their imprisonment, so we can check and learn more and maybe talk to them?
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  1. Yes, though you would be freeing them with the Cauldron, it is in there with them.
  2. Yes, you can shout through the door.
 
Degorium said:
You can not want to hear from me all you want Daniel being here doesn't change the moral and actual implications of these two guys came here for a mission got caught that's fine and then a random mother fucker came along and sealed them away possibly conscious for a thousand and some fucking years. Combat of unknown yields these random dogs that are literally so tired that some of them already want to leave and some other random dogs yeah definitely way outside the range a mortal man can handle definitely oh wait. If you mean the demigods inside even if you think the very worst of the morals of another person attacking someone who just rescue you from a thousand year prison is beyond shit I don't know how else to describe it.
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They were not on a mission, they were explicitly stealing a divine artifact from its owner who was doing his divine duties normally while living in a time when all the gods were active and whose consequences of success or failure were not myths but entirely real. .

Saint David did not condemn anyone to anything, when Arawn went to Winters the three idiots were already sealed, so the spiritual dogs, thinking that they would cause a lot of damage to the lands they once protected, went in search of a solution that would allow them to continue their work without being bitch slapped by the White God for breaking his rule, he thought about it, asked God's permission and helped them.

Furthermore, if you see Lydia's previous explanation, Saint David didn't want anything to do with them at first, only when they said they would help other mortals if he helped them made him agree.

I repeat, they were lucky, many gods would not have simply sealed them away but rather made them suffer enough to wish for oblivion for what they did.
 
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[X] Plan investigations
-[X] Learn more. Why should the heroes of the land be barred from returning? Whose will is it that bids them to be bound? What consequences of their return
--[X] Etiquette excellency
--[X] Use the Crown on the current scene to find what the prisoners are intending to do if they are freed
--[X] Lydia uses Akashic Root Methodology to learn more about the prisoners
--[X] Ask to be escorted to their place of imprisonment, so you can try and talk to them, and perhaps negotiate a satisfying outcome for everyone

Returning to my original solution, but with actual action moving the scene forward.
 
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Azais said:
They were not on a mission, they were explicitly stealing a divine artifact from its owner who was doing his divine duties normally while living in a time when all the gods were active and whose consequences of success or failure were not myths but entirely real. .

Saint David did not condemn anyone to anything, when Arawn went to Winters the three idiots were already sealed, so the spiritual dogs, thinking that they would cause a lot of damage to the lands they once protected, went in search of a solution that would allow them to continue their work without being bitch slapped by the White God for breaking his rule, he thought about it, asked God's permission and helped them.

Furthermore, if you see Lydia's previous explanation, Saint David didn't want anything to do with them at first, only when they said they would help other mortals if he helped them made him agree.

I repeat, they were lucky, many gods would not have simply sealed them away but rather made them suffer enough to wish for oblivion for what they did.
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DragonParadox said:
The hounds turned and spoke one with another, in no language you or even Lydia could speak. Some there were who wished to take her bargain and they would not be dissuaded but the others did not know what would happen if the guard was lessened on those who sought to steal for Arthur the secret of Immortality.

That is why they had chosen to stay in Brittan rather than pass into the service of the Winter Court along with their once master, they had their own gates to guard against the heroes who were almost-as-gods. And that more likely than not is why Saint David intervened to allow it for the dead should not live again until Judgement Day comes, by Scripture at least.
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No he did indeed condemn them Rome only left the British Isles in the last two or three decades of 400 ad. Arthur or very least Artorias is noted for having fought off the pictish Invasion of Wales he also fought the Angols and the Saxons all of which takes place well after 500 AD. Which means that they came here looking for The Cauldron for Arthur they came here after the fall of Albion which is some point between the beginning of St David's life which is 500 AD and the end of St David's life which is 580 AD which means they were already going to escape within a mortal Lifetime and then he slapped a big old fucking seal and trap them for 1500 years. The dogs were literally failing and then he made it so they had the strength to go on. Which means in effect he did condemn them to never leave that place despite being alive still he trapped people and when I said Mission I meant like they were on a mission to steal from a god it's okay that they got caught it's not okay for a random guy to say hey I know you guys are escaping right now how about you never ever ever leave.

So no they didn't get caught by just a god they were escaping a normal trial of a demigod essentially and then a random Saint from a religion they probably didn't follow, enforce a made up edict from a religion they didn't follow. One of them at the very least had a family and children he undertook that mission probably knowing the risk but probably wasn't expecting to get trapped for a thousand years either. It was not David's place to do that he may have had Divine backing but that doesn't make him right and it's definitely wrong for another man to do that.
 
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Just once I want to go on a trip without major compliments so we can actually honestly tell our parents that it isn't always like that. Bagging a serial killer was enough. Don't want to get wrapped up in anything unless people are actively being harmed.

[X] Offer to strengthen the door that leads to the prison of the three and onto Arthur's return from Avalon

[X] Just take with you what hounds had grown weary of their task
 
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Degorium said:
No he did indeed condemn them Rome only left the British Isles in the last two or three decades of 400 ad. Arthur or very least Artorias is noted for having fought off the pictish Invasion of Wales he also fought the Angols and the Saxons all of which takes place well after 500 AD. Which means that they came here looking for The Cauldron for Arthur they came here after the fall of Albion which is some point between the beginning of St David's life which is 500 AD and the end of St David's life which is 580 AD which means they were already going to escape within a mortal Lifetime and then he slapped a big old fucking seal and trap them for 1500 years. The dogs were literally failing and then he made it so they had the strength to go on. Which means in effect he did condemn them to never leave that place despite being alive still he trapped people and when I said Mission I meant like they were on a mission to steal from a god it's okay that they got caught it's not okay for a random guy to say hey I know you guys are escaping right now how about you never ever ever leave.

So no they didn't get caught by just a god they were escaping a normal trial of a demigod essentially and then a random Saint from a religion they probably didn't follow. One of them at the very least had a family and children he undertook that mission probably knowing the risk but probably wasn't expecting to get trapped for a thousand years either. It was not David's place to do that he may have had Divine backing but that doesn't make him right and it's definitely wrong for another man to do that.
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While it is true that Saint David might have been contemporary with Camelot he was not involved in the initial capture of the three only in allowing the seal to endure. This is per the hounds you are talking to. It was the decision of Lydia's father to drag them back and seal them in for trying to steal his stuff.
 
DragonParadox said:
What the Hounds Keep​
4rd of February 2007 A.D.
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COMMENTARY
Yeah, I have no idea why these people were imprisoned, and Im not inclined to release them sight unseen.
Especially since we would then be responsible for whatever they did post-release.
And especially since other people have to have known they were here, and left them here anyway.

I mean, the mythological definition of hero included some very nasty people.
Great =/ = Good. Especially by modern standards.

If we're trusting the hounds as reasonable people that Lydia can trust as escorts and advisers, then the prisoners are bound for very good reason. If we dont trust them, then why are we here trying to recruit them for Lydia?
I see no reason to simply conduct a jailbreak.

Once again, Arawn would have known IC about these people.
And once again, he's provided no advance warning to his daughter. One has to wonder how many magical NDAs he is bound by, and under what circumstances.

Artemis1992 said:
[X] Why should the doors stay closed when there is so much wrong in the world, why should heroes sleep until the end of days? Offer to walk to the gate and break it with brass that all will be free to range as they will

Free them, slay them, whatever.
Eternal prisons are bullshit and should be broken on principle.
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*points at Iku-Turso*
No thank you. Sealed Evils In a Can are sealed for a reason.
 
DragonParadox said:
While it is true that Saint David might have been contemporary with Camelot he was not involved in the initial capture of the three only in allowing the seal to endure. This is per the hounds you are talking to. It was the decision of Lydia's father to drag them back and seal them in for trying to steal his stuff.
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True enough I did not think he was actually involved in the capture of the three but the fact that he intervened on the side of the god while they were pushing at the boundaries of their bonds does mean that he essentially slapped greater manacles on them and made it so they struggle against their bounds even more than a millennium later. Being responsible for the initial capture is fine Mr Welsh death God that I cannot remember how to spell the name of was completely in the right to capture them and they were also in the right to try and Escape.

David's intercession is largely his own prerogative I judge it as incorrect simply because it led to three living people being trapped in a functionally speaking vacant hell for the last Millennium and a half. It would be one thing if the sealing ended when the god of said hell moved on but it didn't they are trapped till Judgment Day what is essentially the end of time which is literally unforgivable in my mind.
 
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[X] Plan investigations
-[X] Learn more. Why should the heroes of the land be barred from returning? Whose will is it that bids them to be bound? What consequences of their return
--[X] Etiquette excellency
--[X] Use the Crown on the current scene to find what the prisoners are intending to do if they are freed
--[X] Lydia uses Akashic Root Methodology to learn more about the prisoners
--[X] Ask to be escorted to their place of imprisonment, so you can try and talk to them, and perhaps negotiate a satisfying outcome for everyone
 
uju32 said:
*points at Iku-Turso*
No thank you. Sealed Evils In a Can are sealed for a reason.
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They are very empathically not Evils.

uju32 said:
Yeah, I have no idea why these people were imprisoned, and Im not inclined to release them sight unseen.
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They were trying to resurrect King Arthur:
DragonParadox said:
They passed still living into the Underworld seeking the treasures of Arawn that they might revive Arthur though his time had come, his fate was sealed. They stole the Cauldron of Rebirth but before they could use it the hounds and the armies of Arawn fell upon them and dragged them and it back.
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They were captured by Arawn.

And vote to investigate then.
 
VOTE
[X] Offer to strengthen the door that leads to the prison of the three and onto Arthur's return from Avalon


Yeah, I have no interest in rushing to break a prison cell with old time warlords who have old time morals and expectations. Especially without further research.
This is the kind of thing that requires a ton more research.
 
Yog said:
They are very empathically not Evils.
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They WERE not Evils.
After more than a thousand years in the spirit world(s), and in a society that bears no resemblance to the ones they were, they might very well be Evils now.

Yog said:
They were trying to resurrect King Arthur:
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Yog said:
They were captured by Arawn.
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Thanks for the citations.
Still leaving them there. The precise specifics of how things happened in this setting is something I'd like to figure out, since its very much at odds with a lot of the popular versions of Arthur's doom.

I mean, in this version, Gwen Pendragon is somehow involved in his death/imprisonment. Somehow.
And given Arthur's entire relationship with the Fae, I want a lot more information before I vote for poking that particular narrative hook.
Yog said:
And vote to investigate then.
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We can investigate at leisure. Lydia has entire AP for that sort of thing, plus a charm, and contacts among the dead.
I dont really see a reason to rush into this now.
There's no urgency I can see.
 
[X] Plan investigations
-[X] Learn more. Why should the heroes of the land be barred from returning? Whose will is it that bids them to be bound? What consequences of their return
--[X] Etiquette excellency
--[X] Use the Crown on the current scene to find what the prisoners are intending to do if they are freed
--[X] Lydia uses Akashic Root Methodology to learn more about the prisoners
--[X] Ask to be escorted to their place of imprisonment, so you can try and talk to them, and perhaps negotiate a satisfying outcome for everyone

[X] Offer to strengthen the door that leads to the prison of the three and onto Arthur's return from Avalon

Not to say we aren't going to open it ourselves one day, maybe one day soon. But that day doesn't have to be and should not be today. We look into it a little now, glean whatever it is politic to glean, and then regardless of what we find we further seal the door and then glean what we can elsewhere. The return of the most virtuous bloody handed warlord of one of mankind's darker eras, one whose history seems ill-recorded in a way that speaks of shenanigans, may be necessary but it is not urgent.

Arthur by some accounts is a terrifyingly ruthless, calculating guile hero sometimes possessed by their own passions... a figure whose sense of honor came before anything resembling our modern conception of honor or even the concept of chivalry. He might face evil but he might also solve such problems with cut throats in the night and roads paved with corpses. The correct move from his point of view but not from ours. Those who want him might either be the same or similarly might not have thought this through.

TLDR: Investigate now, ALSO investigate later.
 
[X] Plan investigations
-[X] Learn more. Why should the heroes of the land be barred from returning? Whose will is it that bids them to be bound? What consequences of their return
--[X] Etiquette excellency
--[X] Use the Crown on the current scene to find what the prisoners are intending to do if they are freed
--[X] Lydia uses Akashic Root Methodology to learn more about the prisoners
--[X] Ask to be escorted to their place of imprisonment, so you can try and talk to them, and perhaps negotiate a satisfying outcome for everyone
 
BoredMan said:
Yeah back in the day it was considered justice to cut a thief's hands off if they were caught. Different time periods different trains of thought.
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That is highly misleading. You would have to get caught stealing something that is functionally speaking worth an entire season of food or I guess nowadays worth an entire gold bullion bar to get a punishment that severe most of the time public shaming or you got put to work but you had to steal something actually pretty intensely valuable to get a punishment like hand removal even in the Middle Ages no matter how much people tend to overemphasize that. No one was getting a hand cut off because they stole a loaf of bread is what I'm saying.
 
[X] Plan investigations
-[X] Learn more. Why should the heroes of the land be barred from returning? Whose will is it that bids them to be bound? What consequences of their return
--[X] Etiquette excellency
--[X] Use the Crown on the current scene to find what the prisoners are intending to do if they are freed
--[X] Lydia uses Akashic Root Methodology to learn more about the prisoners
--[X] Ask to be escorted to their place of imprisonment, so you can try and talk to them, and perhaps negotiate a satisfying outcome for everyone
 
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Modus_Tollens said:
TLDR: Investigate now, ALSO investigate later.
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*points at the vote you are voting for*
Modus_Tollens said:
[X] Plan investigations
-[X] Learn more. Why should the heroes of the land be barred from returning? Whose will is it that bids them to be bound? What consequences of their return
--[X] Etiquette excellency
--[X] Use the Crown on the current scene to find what the prisoners are intending to do if they are freed
--[X] Lydia uses Akashic Root Methodology to learn more about the prisoners
--[X] Ask to be escorted to their place of imprisonment, so you can try and talk to them, and perhaps negotiate a satisfying outcome for everyone
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Trying to figure out what they are intending contravenes Free Will, so the Crown doesnt work.
And trying to negotiate with them when you have done no independent research is literally schmuck bait.
 
Degorium said:
That is highly misleading. You would have to get caught stealing something that is functionally speaking worth an entire season of food or I guess nowadays worth an entire gold bullion bar to get a punishment that severe most of the time public shaming or you got put to work but you had to steal something actually pretty intensely valuable to get a punishment like hand removal even in the Middle Ages no matter how much people tend to overemphasize that. No one was getting a hand cut off because they stole a loaf of bread is what I'm saying.
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1) We know the Brits used to hang people for poaching game, starting from the reign of William II(11th century)
2) We also know the British used to hang pickpockets as recently as the 19th century; 1 in 20 got hung, and more got transported to the Colonies.

Severity was never as much of an issue as who the crime was performed against.
 
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