Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

In terms of the original foundation:


The queens and mothers were participants in the ritual. They had to be older, the stronger ones probably had firmer positions in the old order.

In terms of later replacement:


Mother Winter has not been killed or replaced, so she must be the same entity that participated in the ritual that made the court system.

She couldn't have been Mother Winter before Winter, but she was almost certainly a big bad something.

The courts are a new system for an old people. My point is not to deny that they've "only" been around for a few millennia, but you're treating it like they sprung from nowhere or that there's a division that invalidates what they were. The connection is more American revolution/the founding fathers than cave men in substance.

They're also older than you're suggesting in any case because Mab has Arthurian connections and the courts were around for a while before she ever came to power.
That's a baseless statement based off nothing. Also it says she hasn't died she could of easily been a mortal who became mother winter at the establishment of the court nothing you stated supports otherwise as like I said not having been replaced doesn't mean anything here. The courts were made during Arthurian times fae ancestors were not. I'm also fairly sure the mothers are related to the queens. Also I never said they sprung from nothing a sacrifice was made of what I have no idea.

Given I'm not stating your wrong so much as the evidence doesn't strictly state your right either.
 
Also mad warping of the setting. In my opinion power levels need to conform to the way the world is arranged. This is exactly the kind of thing that grinds everything unique out of an exalted crossover setting and retroactively makes most of the residents look like idiots.

I'm probably too biased to give fair feedback on this because I think exigent are cancer in their home edition. They basically exist for people who think being a "regular" exalt isn't special enough. Consistency of the background be damned.

On a character level she's a good addition to the quest, but people popping out exalts seems like it calls a lot of basic elements into question.
I know this probably won't change your opinion but I have read Exigents: Out of the Ashes. They essentially are exalted of lesser deities but that comes with restrictions the omniplicability of the main exalted in having either the complete set of attributes or the whole set of 25 abilities is unique to Greater deities. The Straw Maiden is Celestial level in the Five abilities she can develop charms in ( Athletics, Awareness, Presence, Resistance
and Survival) but she has a celestial level Excellency attribute + ability in every ability she cares to get an Excellency for. Only capable of terrestrial Circle sorcery and not benefiting from the Mastery keyword even if she's not bounded by the terrestrial keyword for martial arts.

If she's lucky she'll live to be 120. Maybe that could be extended with sorcery there's no doubt about that but she has no reason to do that and also that's not really a part of the conversation of the innate power of an exigent. There's also heavy evidence to suggest that once she's dead that's it her exaltation will be gone that light that, fire given to her Villages God granted to fight in that time of crisis will be gone along with said Villages God.

So in my mind she sets the standard we are left with they are functionally speaking less than the dragon blooded while having an area of focus where they might outshine them at the height of the first age where analgesics were flowing and rampant there were still less then a thousand of them total and in the modern day creation that's riddled with people and places and gods in need of divine champions there are less than 300.

The amount of warp they have on the setting is as bad as much as having a first age lunar that is in an area and that area being a massive shit hole. Which is to say the amount of warp they can have on a setting is largely thematic considering they are one shot exalted by deities that would need to die to make them anything more than slightly different terrestrials as well as need to beseech a higher God to get the fire in the first place, there is just no way for them to have a impact on the setting that is greater than the dragonblooded who essentially defined every age after the use a patient from the high mid and low shogunant there were hundreds of thousands of those motherfuckers and now there's maybe 20 or 30,000 of them.

Those people that had used to have a hundred thousand also had religions that let them just kill anyone they declared bad and did so often and frequently there's just no way for accidents to make a heavy warp on the setting because to make a heavy warp on the setting they would need to fight thousands of dragon blooded and they're strong but you would need a mixture of artifact NA's, Solar Sorcery and fucking martial arts strong enough to cleave down mountains to even make it an attempt at a hundred never mind a thousand.

They also make sense from a in Universe perspective because of where they come from this Edition assumes that Auto taught the incarna how to make exalted he didn't provide a shell or a battery that they filled with their power that he then formatted into exaltations rather he made the concept and he taught them how to make their own and Sol in the process of doing that creates his 300 and the Fire Exigent, as Lord of Heaven it is his right to Dole out the ability to make exalted also he's probably footing the bill for the vast majority of the exhaust power off the bat everything that can be gained by raw might he's providing so a Lesser God can actually make an exalted in the first place.

On the uniqueness front I feel like that is less than true because the setting still revolves essentially around the main cast of exalted and their conflict the Silver Pact, The empire, The bronze and gold and the solars essentially Define the fate of the universe now an exigent can throw their weight with any of these factions but they need to do that to have an effect on the major setting Beyond wherever they can reach by hand.

In the end exigence answer the question of how do lesser deities actually deal with demonic incursions or wyld infections or Elemental uprisings. The Dragon Blood haven't been concerned with protecting the borders of creation for going on two Millennia now they executed policy of Perpetual violence at the fringes of their empire towards anyone and everyone they consider a barbarian and they're just not well liked by the Divine hierarchy in general probably because of those first two. So the fire exigent comes into the scene it doesn't come into the scene often but with the solar's sealed away and the dragon-blooded perpetually concerned with bilking every single bit of Jade out of everywhere that isn't the Imperial Center the gods choose their Champions sometimes even at the cost of their own lives.

Tldr: exigence only warps the background if you believe there were ever only 10,000 Dragon blooded and not hundreds of thousands of them in the shogunates and tens of thousands of them in every prior age to the modern one where they're still 20,000 of the motherfuckers. There's just no way for any grouping of deity to make enough exalted to challenge their hegemony in any way and they're the ones who decided the arch of History.
 
That's a baseless statement based off nothing. Also it says she hasn't died she could of easily been a mortal who became mother winter at the establishment of the court nothing you stated supports otherwise as like I said not having been replaced doesn't mean anything here. The courts were made during Arthurian times fae ancestors were not. I'm also fairly sure the mothers are related to the queens. Also I never said they sprung from nothing a sacrifice was made of what I have no idea.

Given I'm not stating your wrong so much as the evidence doesn't strictly state your right either.
What do you mean baseless? I quoted the relevant WoJ that tells us what's happened. Here's a quote @uju32 posted awhile back that outlines the situation as more of a political change to reinforce the point:
Dresden Files Podcast Transcript, 2021


EDIT
@Yog
That citation you asked for yesterday about the Fae always guarding the Gates.
Here it is.

My thanks to @BronzeTongue for reminding me where it was.

I don't think it's credible to suggest that the fae performed a major ritual to gain independent power and gave the biggest nuke in their arsenal to some random mortal. If she was one then she'd have to have been a crazy powerful and trusted one, which means something like a Wizard in the role of the gatekeeper.

I think it's vastly more likely that the mothers are the court's backers or else are themselves substantial fey predating the courts, but the other ends of the scale dipping below "centuries old wizard" would be insane.

In any case they were not made in Authurian times. Butcher talks about them in terms of millennia and recorded human history as a time scale. The Arthurian mythos is younger than that, while the courts likely predate the written word.
 
Tldr: exigence only warps the background if you believe there were ever only 10,000 Dragon blooded and not hundreds of thousands of them in the shogunates and tens of thousands of them in every prior age to the modern one where they're still 20,000 of the motherfuckers. There's just no way for any grouping of deity to make enough exalted to challenge their hegemony in any way and they're the ones who decided the arch of History.
Exigents are and always have been incredibly, catastrophically, fractally, stupid and it has little to do with how many of them there are. They're chuuni in comparison to other exalts of all people.

The original canon was that Autobot made the exaltations and imbued them with power from other entities. This is critically important to the primordial war because the whole reason exalts exist is because the gods needed people to fight their creators who didn't have baked in restrictions and they didn't have the capacity to make something to do the job without help no matter how much they wanted to. Autobot couldn't fight all his siblings without help either, in particular something to work his magic with.

If gods could create exaltations it would have been all of 10 seconds before Theion went "Oh Glorious Soon To Be Very Conquered Sun, make me some of those new toys". Which would then make the war into an exalted arms race between the architects of creation.

The whole forge thing producing sparks to imprint on makes no sense because they couldn't have owned it during the war and Autobot fled in terror because of what the Celestials did after it ended.

The dragon blooded are a different kettle of fish. They're the only type of exalts who were made in collaboration with another primordial, and that kind of mythos mixing is the literally miraculous shit that was used to forge reality in the first place. Gaia specifically was the source of the "common" elements of the world. They're like that because she's bullshit and that's how her themes worked.

They also warp this setting because we don't have exalts already and they don't fit well in the history we're supposed to be dealing with. Some guy* building them in his garage is a huge power shift that calls into question why it hasn't happened a lot and profoundly changed things relative to the canon events baseline this quest started with.

* And when the other people doing this have things like the concept of direction on their resume Mikaboshi is definitely just some guy
 
Exigents are and always have been incredibly, catastrophically, fractally, stupid and it has little to do with how many of them there are. They're chuuni in comparison to other exalts of all people.

The original canon was that Autobot made the exaltations and imbued them with power from other entities. This is critically important to the primordial war because the whole reason exalts exist is because the gods needed people to fight their creators who didn't have baked in restrictions and they didn't have the capacity to make something to do the job without help no matter how much they wanted to. Autobot couldn't fight all his siblings without help either, in particular something to work his magic with.

If gods could create exaltations it would have been all of 10 seconds before Theion went "Oh Glorious Soon To Be Very Conquered Sun, make me some of those new toys". Which would then make the war into an exalted arms race between the architects of creation.

The whole forge thing producing sparks to imprint on makes no sense because they couldn't have owned it during the war and Autobot fled in terror because of what the Celestials did after it ended.

The dragon blooded are a different kettle of fish. They're the only type of exalts who were made in collaboration with another primordial, and that kind of mythos mixing is the literally miraculous shit that was used to forge reality in the first place. Gaia specifically was the source of the "common" elements of the world. They're like that because she's bullshit and that's how her themes worked.

They also warp this setting because we don't have exalts already and they don't fit well in the history we're supposed to be dealing with. Some guy* building them in his garage is a huge power shift that calls into question why it hasn't happened a lot and profoundly changed things relative to the canon events baseline this quest started with.

* And when the other people doing this have things like the concept of direction on their resume Mikaboshi is definitely just some guy
They very much aren't Chuuni in comparison to other exalted. Oh no I've got a very limited theme and a limited number of abilities I can make charms in and an Excellency please other exalts please don't School me in the other 20 abilities that you have access to or the all nine attributes that you have access to, to make charms in and for as well as your own theme please don't do that.

For them to decide to empower more Mortals is just completely against the primordial nature also the fire Exigent can only be taken voluntarily otherwise you're just shoving Gods into a furnace. Also exigence still follow the exalted criteria so you can't mind control the Mortal in question and expect them to be exalted. Again on this point they still need to have free will so they could choose to fight on the side of the exalted anyway in the war because Humanity was chosen because we were kind of getting a real shit end of the Stick of the age of the primordials.

There is also the fact that the gods were still slaves no matter how cushy their position and a slave that has essentially taken up the fight alongside the primordials isn't going to want to sacrifice their life for the primordials they're only fighting for them because they think the primordials are going to win so it's to protect themselves not because they think they're right.

Also the Fire exigent we don't know when it comes into Sol's possession we just know that currently he is the god of the fire exigent it could have been after the war because he became the king of heaven and if he wanted it who was Auto to deny him also what was Autocthon going to do actually deny the unconquered sun something he wanted after the Divine geas that prevented him from striking his Masters was gone.
 
If gods could create exaltations it would have been all of 10 seconds before Theion went "Oh Glorious Soon To Be Very Conquered Sun, make me some of those new toys". Which would then make the war into an exalted arms race between the architects of creation.
A clarification regarding 3e I recall hearing, the Yozi's ability to command the gods is... weaker. It's not a Yozi says jump god says how high due to magical compulsion. It's just they can't directly engage a Yozi in battle. It's supposed to be closer to how Baldur was protected in Norse Myth.

Edit: I found a source

Eric Minton in the 10000 Dragons channel of the Exalted Discord on 7-17-2018 said:
And yes, the gods were under a geas not to attack their makers; it wasn't a geas to obey all commands.
 
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A clarification regarding 3e I recall hearing, the Yozi's ability to command the gods is... weaker. It's not a Yozi says jump god says how high due to magical compulsion. It's just they can't directly engage a Yozi in battle. It's supposed to be closer to how Baldur was protected in Norse Myth.
Which is itself dumb. Are the primordials supposed to have respect for free will and the ability of their creations to refuse orders now? Even then, how would you avoid them reproducing it? The exaltations started as the masterwork of the greatest craftsman to ever exist but apparently and became some basic blessing.


They very much aren't Chuuni in comparison to other exalted. Oh no I've got a very limited theme and a limited number of abilities I can make charms in and an Excellency please other exalts please don't School me in the other 20 abilities that you have access to or the all nine attributes that you have access to, to make charms in and for as well as your own theme please don't do that.

For them to decide to empower more Mortals is just completely against the primordial nature also the fire Exigent can only be taken voluntarily otherwise you're just shoving Gods into a furnace. Also exigence still follow the exalted criteria so you can't mind control the Mortal in question and expect them to be exalted. Again on this point they still need to have free will so they could choose to fight on the side of the exalted anyway in the war because Humanity was chosen because we were kind of getting a real shit end of the Stick of the age of the primordials.

There is also the fact that the gods were still slaves no matter how cushy their position and a slave that has essentially taken up the fight alongside the primordials isn't going to want to sacrifice their life for the primordials they're only fighting for them because they think the primordials are going to win so it's to protect themselves not because they think they're right.

Also the Fire exigent we don't know when it comes into Sol's possession we just know that currently he is the god of the fire exigent it could have been after the war because he became the king of heaven and if he wanted it who was Auto to deny him also what was Autocthon going to do actually deny the unconquered sun something he wanted after the Divine geas that prevented him from striking his Masters was gone.
They exist so that people can make their twice baked super special custom exalt type. Everything else is a post facto justification papering over the holes blown in the setting to facilitate that.

Wanting to cooperate wouldn't be a factor for those in the primordial's sway, they could make you do it. The primordials weren't stupid and their base instinct is to make other critters do things for them. They certainly didn't have a problem with handing out power when making the gods, and readily sought exaltations after they loss. Making their own security guys would be the most intuitive thing in existence for people who invented stable reality to power their console.

On the last; Autobot had this moment at the end of the war because of what the exalted did to his people:



View: https://imgur.com/rPr6OCr

And ran into the deep wyld to starve to death. Sol for the record, couldn't do shit to Autobot because whatever protection and controls the primordials had would still apply to him, and Sol couldn't win a fight like that himself anyway. Gods are strictly smaller and weaker than they were. Sol was the indicator light on a battery, he only looks bright to people the size of electrons.

The exalted host is a different story*, but they were never able to build more themselves or given control of that apparatus.

Why exactly would he toss people he hated and feared the power to make even more of the power source they used against his creations and his peers when leaving?

* Though unlike the other primordials if Autobot had gotten into a fight like that he could always have made more exalts of his own. Which would have been interesting for whoever found the wreckage of creation after the dust settled. Which is another reason not to share the ability to do it.
 
Which is itself dumb. Are the primordials supposed to have respect for free will and the ability of their creations to refuse orders now? Even then, how would you avoid them reproducing it? The exaltations started as the masterwork of the greatest craftsman to ever exist but apparently and became some basic blessing.
Oramus and Sachaverell actually did figure out how to make their own exalted(The Getimians) during the Primordial War. The Law of Diminishment(Creating exaltations diminishes their creator) and the nature of the Getimians freaked them the fark out and the Getimian Exaltations were sealed away in Zen-Mu. Then Rakan Thulio found them.

Edit: My source is pages 153 and 154 of Crucible of Legend
 
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They exist so that people can make their twice baked super special custom exalt type. Everything else is a post facto justification papering over the holes blown in the setting to facilitate that.
Which is just sad when you notice that Godblooded something any god can turn out by the hundreds if they bother without suffering death, while having all the features, Exigents have but are better in every way, up to being able to learn Celestial Martial arts, and Celestial Sorcery.
 
Which is itself dumb. Are the primordials supposed to have respect for free will and the ability of their creations to refuse orders now? Even then, how would you avoid them reproducing it? The exaltations started as the masterwork of the greatest craftsman to ever exist but apparently and became some basic blessing.



They exist so that people can make their twice baked super special custom exalt type. Everything else is a post facto justification papering over the holes blown in the setting to facilitate that.

Wanting to cooperate wouldn't be a factor for those in the primordial's sway, they could make you do it. The primordials weren't stupid and their base instinct is to make other critters do things for them. They certainly didn't have a problem with handing out power when making the gods, and readily sought exaltations after they loss. Making their own security guys would be the most intuitive thing in existence for people who invented stable reality to power their console.

On the last; Autobot had this moment at the end of the war because of what the exalted did to his people:



View: https://imgur.com/rPr6OCr

And ran into the deep wyld to starve to death. Sol for the record, couldn't do shit to Autobot because whatever protection and controls the primordials had would still apply to him, and Sol couldn't win a fight like that himself anyway. Gods are strictly smaller and weaker than they were. Sol was the indicator light on a battery, he only looks bright to people the size of electrons.

The exalted host is a different story*, but they were never able to build more themselves or given control of that apparatus.

Why exactly would he toss people he hated and feared the power to make even more of the power source they used against his creations and his peers when leaving?

* Though unlike the other primordials if Autobot had gotten into a fight like that he could always have made more exalts of his own. Which would have been interesting for whoever found the wreckage of creation after the dust settled. Which is another reason not to share the ability to do it.

Okay I'm not going to change your mind about Exigents I think they serve a good function and aren't what you're describing but there's no way for me to convince you of that as it's really a matter of opinion either way. There are things you are out right wrong about the Unconquered Sun is the most high the most powerful being in creation flat out no primordial if he was allowed to strike them would be able to fight him period also they don't have the ability to just command gods endlessly they didn't in second edition despite having literal charms that could allow them to overpower lesser gods because it only works on beings that have lesser Essence than them and the unconquered sun has Essence 10 same with Luna and the maidens of Fate count Bears all together they have a 10 individually they have eight.

They didn't have a problem making gods because they could just make them slaves that were unable to strike them but they could use and abuse at their leisure even if they couldn't injure them because none of the primordials had the ability to harm the Unconquered Sun or really any of the Incarnae if they decided not to be. That also doesn't address the fact that the fire exigent has to be taken on on purpose and still follows basic exalted procedure which means you can't just mind control someone or strip the Free Will out of it being and expect them to be exalted. There's also the fact that humans were chosen specifically because they were less than slaves slaves of slaves of slaves essentially unless the primordials were even willing to put lip service to it which they definitely weren't no human would choose to fight with them hell they can't even get the exalted they specifically kind of chose on criteria that might make them more amenable to it to fight for them why would they be better at an age where they didn't have to make any compromise at all.

Also Auto went to elsewhere he's not in the wild if he's in the wild he wouldn't be starving to death no matter how powerful is his Mythos doesn't allow him to make something from nothing which elsewhere is full of. He could kill an arbitrary number of Fay and drink deep of the oceans of Chaos in perpetuity but he can't make something from nothing like elsewhere. Also he just feared the exalted he didn't hate them by any stretch because he made his own he had his own that he brought with him. To that end the fire Exigent might literally be what the Unconquered Sun gleaned from the process of making his solars anyway so there's no way for auto to stop him from having the fire exigent no matter what whether he commanded him to give it to him or he just made his own it doesn't particularly matter.

Due to the bindings of the Gods being unraveled by the surrender Oaths. The primordials in their surrender gave up their immunity from the gods has this also kind of extended to all primordials because the binder of the Gods was Miss three spheres and the ephemeral tyrant is hilarious.
 
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Which is just sad when you notice that Godblooded something any god can turn out by the hundreds if they bother without suffering death, while having all the features, Exigents have but are better in every way, up to being able to learn Celestial Martial arts, and Celestial Sorcery.
What are you talking about only a child of a Celestial exalt would consistently have access those things the vast majority of deities can't use Celestial martial arts or Celestial sorcery even then it's usually one or the other a field God would be lucky to have a child capable of moving Essence never mind actually being able to use terrestrial martial arts or sorcery. Heck I think most terrestrial gods are under the same category unless they have a specific portfolio that will allow martial or sorcery access their children wouldn't have the ability to access those things either. Never mind the fact that Mortals trying to cast sorcery would use up pretty much all of their strength in one cast and be shit at it taking a multitude rounds to cast the most basic of spells and not be able to use combo charms to use martial arts properly.
 
What are you talking about only a child of a Celestial exalt would consistently have access those things the vast majority of deities can't use Celestial martial arts or Celestial sorcery even then it's usually one or the other a field God would be lucky to have a child capable of moving Essence never mind actually being able to use terrestrial martial arts or sorcery. Heck I think most terrestrial gods are under the same category unless they have a specific portfolio that will allow martial or sorcery access their children wouldn't have the ability to access those things either. Never mind the fact that Mortals trying to cast sorcery would use up pretty much all of their strength in one cast and be shit at it taking a multitude rounds to cast the most basic of spells and not be able to use combo charms to use martial arts properly.
God of compass level or just strong regional gods can learn and use celestial level MA and Sorcery, the only requirement is it has to be in tune with their theme/job. Godblooded are the same just capped by the strength of their parang, also get the ablity to learn spirit charms of their parents theme.

And their are entire schools of MA and sorcery learning across creation where 99%-100% of students are mortals/godblooded You only need awakened essence, and time to learn those. In the deeper reaches, it not uncommon for entire cities to be ruled by a single mortal sorcerer. And MA using mortals have sect schools which will turn out MA using mortals every year or so. Also several of the Terrestrial MA where made by mortals, such minor rewards are not worth an exalted time.
 
Okay I'm not going to change your mind about Exigents I think they serve a good function and aren't what you're describing but there's no way for me to convince you of that as it's really a matter of opinion either way. There are things you are out right wrong about the Unconquered Sun is the most high the most powerful being in creation flat out no primordial if he was allowed to strike them would be able to fight him period also they don't have the ability to just command gods endlessly they didn't in second edition despite having literal charms that could allow them to overpower lesser gods because it only works on beings that have lesser Essence than them and the unconquered sun has Essence 10 same with Luna and the maidens of Fate count Bears all together they have a 10 individually they have
Exigents are a transparent gimmick, you might like it but that doesn't change what it is.

As to the rest, the primordials built him and everything else in creation. He is a light bulb that talks, not a living mythos. Would it be an easy fight? Depends on who's involved. But there's a reason the primordial war was a miracle and it wasn't because creation had any advantage except what they got from two defectors.
 
God of compass level or just strong regional gods can learn and use celestial level MA and Sorcery, the only requirement is it has to be in tune with their theme/job. Godblooded are the same just capped by the strength of their parang, also get the ablity to learn spirit charms of their parents theme.

And their are entire schools of MA and sorcery learning across creation where 99%-100% of students are mortals/godblooded You only need awakened essence, and time to learn those. In the deeper reaches, it not uncommon for entire cities to be ruled by a single mortal sorcerer. And MA using mortals have sect schools which will turn out MA using mortals every year or so. Also several of the Terrestrial MA where made by mortals, such minor rewards are not worth an exalted time.
The vast majority of gods aren't Compass or Regional God level just to start with that one there are millions of lesser gods that are just not that strong both in heaven and in creation. For every Regional God there are hundreds of gods within that region from the forest to particularly important trees, forests, caves, stone faces, mountain, Rivers, streams, lakes. None of which would have a portfolio that would support even terrestrial martial arts or sorcery never mind celestial. As well for every Regional God in that situation if they don't have a city of people or exalted or similar within their territory or region than they definitely don't have a portfolio that could support even terrestrial martial arts or sorcery either.

There's also the fact that god-blooded and in like Mortals don't have the breath of war that exalts have that allows them to reach in five Essence per combat round they get to cast one maybe even two spells if they are particularly cheap before they're completely out of juice and need to rest. There's also the fact that Mortals and God blooded are not capable of comboing or reflexive usage of charms like gods and exalted which means even with proper training they are absolute ass at using martial arts Charms only capable of using them one at a time in sequence.
 
Exigents are a transparent gimmick, you might like it but that doesn't change what it is.

As to the rest, the primordials built him and everything else in creation. He is a light bulb that talks, not a living mythos. Would it be an easy fight? Depends on who's involved. But there's a reason the primordial war was a miracle and it wasn't because creation had any advantage except what they got from two defectors.
No you think it's a transparent gimmick I think it makes sense as well as providing a both impetus and Method by which lesser Gods participated and granted Champions to the Divine Revolution. We are both speaking an opinion right here don't tell me what I think and I won't tell you what you think.

Again with the primordials being the be all end all. He was made literally to be the antithesis of a primordial (Ebon Dragon) He is a living Mythos he is the Mythos of Light, The Sun, Perfection, Excellence and Virtue. The lord of the Daystar, King of the heavens, the Most High. He wields his own Excellency alike similar to a Primordial that's called Perfection Beyond Imagining, he also just straight up didn't have to listen to the primordials at all he's in essence 10 being and he possesses his Ageis of Unconquerable Might that counts as is both Perfect Defense for environmental, attack and social if they gave him an order that was against his motivation he could just outright ignore it. Which is how he began his conspiracy in the first place.

If the primordials didn't Loop their binding into his creation he is very explicitly a creation of God that he could not lift. Exalted is it very explicitly a setting where the answer to the question of can God make a rock he cannot lift is yes the answer is yes. Even in their binding of him they could only bind the part that attacks he can defend against them just fine just like he could scheme and plan around them. To rest behind his Shield is to be protected infinitely to be at the end of his spear is to meet annihilation he is the son of Theion King of the primordials and the Dragon of Shadow the shadow of all things. He is the all searing light. As long as he adheres to his Mythos of Virtue he is Unyielding, Uninjurable, Unfatiguable, Unconquerable.
 
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No you think it's a transparent gimmick I think it makes sense as well as providing a both impetus and Method by which lesser Gods participated and granted Champions to the Divine Revolution. We are both speaking an opinion right here don't tell me what I think and I won't tell you what you think.

Again with the primordials being the be all end all. He was made literally to be the antithesis of a primordial (Ebon Dragon) He is a living Mythos he is the Mythos of Light, The Sun, Perfection, Excellence and Virtue. The lord of the Daystar, King of the heavens, the Most High. He wields his own Excellency alike similar to a Primordial that's called Perfection Beyond Imagining, he also just straight up didn't have to listen to the primordials at all he's in essence 10 being and he possesses his Ageis of Unconquerable Might that counts as is both Perfect Defense for environmental, attack and social if they gave him an order that was against his motivation he could just outright ignore it. Which is how he began his conspiracy in the first place.

If the primordials didn't Loop their binding into his creation he is very explicitly a creation of God that he could not lift. Exalted is it very explicitly a setting where the answer to the question of can God make a rock he cannot lift is yes the answer is yes. Even in their binding of him they could only bind the part that attacks he can defend against them just fine just like he could scheme and plan around them. To rest behind his Shield is to be protected infinitely to be at the end of his spear is to meet annihilation he is the son of Theion King of the primordials and the Dragon of Shadow the shadow of all things. He is the all searing light. As long as he adheres to his Mythos of Virtue he is Unyielding, Uninjurable, Unfatiguable, Unconquerable.
Sol is, definitionally, still just a god.

He isn't meant to be truly indestructible, as the Primordials were.
He isn't meant to be utterly immune to the Wyld, to shape and order it by his very existence as the Holy Tyrant did.

There are likely some weaknesses he has, that a Primordial doesn't have. And in raw staying power / Essence-pool he should definitely be their lesser.

Although, since you and Bronzetongue are kinda talking past each other with very different assumptions, what Edition are you working from.
I'm not deep enough into Exalted to know the exact lore-differences, but I believe Exigents were a thing created for 3rd Edition?
So obviously they wouldn't fit well into a framework of someone who mostly read 2nd.
 
Sol is, definitionally, still just a god.

He isn't meant to be truly indestructible, as the Primordials were.
He isn't meant to be utterly immune to the Wyld, to shape and order it by his very existence as the Holy Tyrant did.

There are likely some weaknesses he has, that a Primordial doesn't have. And in raw staying power / Essence-pool he should definitely be their lesser.

Although, since you and Bronzetongue are kinda talking past each other with very different assumptions, what Edition are you working from.
I'm not deep enough into Exalted to know the exact lore-differences, but I believe Exigents were a thing created for 3rd Edition?
So obviously they wouldn't fit well into a framework of someone who mostly read 2nd.
Sol is just a God like the Silver City is just a resting place it's not incorrect but you might be under selling it just a tad. Oh he definitely has less Essence then any primordial 250 to their thousand. It's just that when they made him he was the guarding star of creation. He's completely immune to shaping effects. So on top of being Immortal he cannot be changed by the flow of Chaos. They made him essentially to kill arbitrary amounts raksha and push back the flow of chaos from creation shore. Unless an exalted kills him he is truly immortal. The Daystar and himself are prime creations of the primordials not dissimilar to exaltations. Though you are correct he has no ability to shape the wyld on top of having no want to but he doesn't need to either. The only order he was meant to push on to the Sea of chaos was annihilation under his all-searing light.

Functionally speaking he's harder to kill in a straight-up conflict than any of the primordials are or were. He's easier to kill in roundabout ways then some of the primordials but that some is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that statement. To kill the Unconquered Sun you must put him in a situation where both gis Temperance the thing that makes him invincible and his Valor are placed in a situation to both be compromised at the same time so he cannot instantly disintegrate you and cannot perfectly defend himself from every kind of attack.

Even then that lowers him from literally indestructible and will kill you in one hit to we're almost certainly kill you in one hit and just nearly indestructible. Creatures of Darkness are incapable of doing this flat out he has declared using his Valor that they are enemies of creation and following through with promises counts for temperance and when he declared them and we have creation he declared them his enemy he promised that he would deal with them eventually.

I'm mostly going by 2E at the moment three has a lot of good kind of story seeds but they like to obscure and pontificate and mistake miraculous for unique and vice versa a lot of the time. Something being a one-off occurrence doesn't make it miraculous it makes it unique something being moving and of divine stature makes it miraculous no matter how many times it happens.
 
Exigents are a transparent gimmick, you might like it but that doesn't change what it is.

As to the rest, the primordials built him and everything else in creation. He is a light bulb that talks, not a living mythos. Would it be an easy fight? Depends on who's involved. But there's a reason the primordial war was a miracle and it wasn't because creation had any advantage except what they got from two defectors.

All the Incarna have something that make them more than 'just a god':
  • Luna is bound to the Wyld, drawing power and inspiration from what which is by its very definition beyond the reach of her creators. By that bond she was able to seduce Gaia and through it she was able to imagine things undrempt.
  • Whence the Maidens came none know, they simply showed themselves and the Primordials in their arrogance saw what seemed to be their work assumed that the Maidens Six, not yet Five, and the fate they spun were of their own making
  • Sol is virtue imperishable, such that the Enon Dragon whispered to Theion that he make this thing that the Dragon could truly be more than a whisper in the mind.
This is not a statement about power level or how much Essence they have or who would win in a punch up, but that defines the Celestial Incarna is that in making them the Primordials outdid themselves in some wondrous manner that came back to bite them
 
No you think it's a transparent gimmick I think it makes sense as well as providing a both impetus and Method by which lesser Gods participated and granted Champions to the Divine Revolution. We are both speaking an opinion right here don't tell me what I think and I won't tell you what you think.
You can tell because their addition worked something like going through The Hobbit to write in "and also Tim was there" everywhere Bilbo's name is mentioned. Tim was there, but is utterly useless until later when he's supposed to be Frodo's cool uncle and he suddenly is allowed to matter. They were poorly tacked on and you can see the seams where they didn't want to change the fundamental story but did want to break the rules of their own setting and just kept injecting excuses until they had a veneer thick enough to write "just don't think too hard about it" on.


Again with the primordials being the be all end all. He was made literally to be the antithesis of a primordial (Ebon Dragon) He is a living Mythos he is the Mythos of Light, The Sun, Perfection, Excellence and Virtue. The lord of the Daystar, King of the heavens, the Most High. He wields his own Excellency alike similar to a Primordial that's called Perfection Beyond Imagining, he also just straight up didn't have to listen to the primordials at all he's in essence 10 being and he possesses his Ageis of Unconquerable Might that counts as is both Perfect Defense for environmental, attack and social if they gave him an order that was against his motivation he could just outright ignore it. Which is how he began his conspiracy in the first place
Essence 10 is the cap the mechanics of the system represent, it doesn't mean you're the strongest thing that can exist. He may have been made to be a point of contrast, but he was still a more limited entity than they were. He's part of a system and not a system himself. The basis of his power was all stuff the primordials made. It's like suggesting the Green Lantern is stronger than the Guardians. Even if they couldn't just turn his ring off they're stronger by every metric.
 
Vote closed.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Jun 1, 2024 at 7:32 AM, finished with 67 posts and 9 votes.

  • [x] Yes, ask Joe Magarac to continue his studies of Essence under new management (Costs a Favor)
    [x] Yes, ask Joe Magarac to continue his studies of Essence under new management (Costs a Favor)
    -[X] Empathy excellency
    -[X] Empathize that this isn't about weapons. It's about expanding the horizons of what is possible, about how people can be more.
    [X] No, you'll do this in house
 
It just occurred to me that we forgot something important in our alert people vote. Not in terms of politics or anything, but in terms of family. We should have at least sent a text or something so that Charity and Micheal know Molly made it out of hell okay.
 
Arc 12 Post 82: Into the Mist
Into the Mist

28th of January 2007 A.D.

There is something to be said for not retreading old ground, even if that ground is in hell. "I'd like to hire you for a spell Joe..." He's uneasy at first, then less and less so as you go down the laundry list of rules and regulations that mark study into the thaumic sciences in Sanctuary, the modern and civilian guides. The history of your inner world is no less marked by rulers and generals willing to sacrifice good sense and decency upon the altar of their own ambition, though as in this world the results were most often as flawed as the moral calculus that birthed them.

All the while Nergui waits, still as a waxen figure, not even bothering to drink the tea in front of him, presumably because there is little sense feigning normality in a company so far removed from it. Once you'd said your goodbyes to Lilly you turn to ask. "Is Chicago alright for you? It should be about 3 AM there?"

"Yes."

It occurs to you then that what had been for you an at times terrifying, yet nonetheless ultimately positive journey to bring hope to the Doomed must have for him been a reminder of that time long ago when he counted among its denizens. Alas asking if he's OK would likely be taken poorly. Does he have friends, companions? The Court of the Back Turtle is long gone to dust, that much you know. So when you make it back to the Last Station by way of Sanctuary you turn again not to ask but offer.

"Should you ever be in town we'd be happy to host you."

"A pleasure majesty." Something like a smile touches his lips.

"Neat," Isabela declares from the corner. "I wonder if he has fun stories to tell or magics to teach?"

Augustus proceeds to show that there is such a thing as looking politely horrified, though you Lydia and Tiffany do not stick around to see if he manages to keep it up verbally.

***​

29th of January 2007 A.D.

You Regain all Essence -> Now at 15/15

Having left Joe Magarac behind at the palace you return to the heartwarming sight of their reunion in one of the larger of the palace's meeting rooms, made only slightly odd by the fact that he choose to take his full size once more giving the scene that touch of Gulliver's Travels as she shouts up to be heard. "Thank you Moll... I mean Your Majest..." Nora starts.

"Molly is fine," you cut her off. "Really I should be thanking you, without you telling me what was going on we might have been in so much deeper trouble down the line when Mikaboshi's plans came to a boil." That's a lie, the Crown had shown you part of it before she had opened up, but in the grand scheme of things it's more than just protecting your biggest secret, it's giving her back some control in a world seemingly gone mad.

That is how you come one bright cold day towards the end of January to stand again on the precipice of the Well accompanied not just by an armored up Lydia and Flicker in Moth's Eye but also a flannel wearing (makes sense in hindsight) Joe Magarac.

"Are you sure you don't want an upgrade? What about a wave warping field? Kinetic and electromagnetic?" Flick asks, wheedles really, her grasp of English far outstripping her understanding for why anyone fortunate enough to be made of metal would not want to take advantage of the many avenues of enhancement they have before them.

"Alright, everyone is ready?" Lydia asks, a little loudly. "Into deep woods and under briar we go."

"Woods? Jungle?" Flick asks, but Lydia is obviously as sick of delays as you are. She claps her hands the sound like silver on stone as her essence parts the way into...

"Doesn't look that different," you half whisper.

Ahead is a continuation of the bare field before the hall where you had met Nora whips of mist coiling around the the stumps of trees. Wait... You step across. Are those petrified?

The closer you look the less they seem like trees they seem more like broken columns or the worn stumps of broken standing stones, Then as the path closes behind you you realize even that had been a trick of the light. All is mist white and thick, no ground below, no sky above, a place of echoes not a sound being heard.

Flick struggles with her instruments, trying to find a level plane to set them on when it seems the 'ground' only exists under your feet. Finally she gives up and sets them floating. half a dozen vaguely pyramid shaped structures buzzing, or rather humming taking readings.

"I have never seen a place more morphic than this," she mutters under her breath, "it almost reminds me of some parts of the Labyrinth."

"It goes really deep," Lydia grabs a 'piece' of mist in hand that briefly congeals to the consistency of cotton.

"It's a forge that hasn't been lit," Joe adds.

And all of a sudden it clicks. "Or a bridge that hasn't been built." This place is filled enough with Essence that you could build a permanent path to Sanctuary here, one that does not count on you ferrying people back and forth.

What should the Well be developed into?
(All options will require an investment of AP or time as others do the work in the background)

[] A Gate to Sanctuary, allowing trade and the movement of people

[] An Artifact Forge, reducing the cost of Splendors by ● to a minimum of ● (●●●●● to ●●●●, ●●●● to ●●● etc...)

[] A Proving Ground, allowing for the improvement of Mortal Talents, potentially even the Awakening of Essence

[] Write in


OOC: This feels a little scattered, but there was a lot of ground to cover. Hope it works.
 
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[X] A Proving Ground, allowing for the improvement of Mortal Talents, potentially even the Awakening of Essence

We can do everything else on our own, this is a completely novel capability that leans into what it already does.
 
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